Which Dental Schools will help me specialize?

[AayushKaneria]

Imagine that cost isn’t factored in at all. Will Penn, Columbia, etc... offer me a huge advantage for specializing and placing into ortho or OMFS?

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[BlackThought]

Please. Not again.

Kindly refer to the one of the many threads in this forum that has gone into this ad nauseam. With a question like that its obvious you havn't even tried to see if that same question has been asked before.

Short answer: No.

 

[AayushKaneria]

Please. Not again.

Kindly refer to the one of the many threads in this forum that has gone into this ad nauseam. With a question like that its obvious you havn't even tried to see if that same question has been asked before.

Short answer: No.

I’m new to this platform sorry. Can u link threads or such.

 

[AppalachianDentalBoy]

No. Use the search bar. There is a huge difference in ortho and oms. You really need to do more research and shadowing.

 

[2TH MVR]

Follow @Shak Muscles .

He's asked every question possible. lol.

 

[753698]

Follow @Shak Muscles .

He's asked every question possible. lol.

I did the dirty work so none of my pre dental colleagues had to haha

 

[753698]

Imagine that cost isn’t factored in at all. Will Penn, Columbia, etc... offer me a huge advantage for specializing and placing into ortho or OMFS?

OP from what I've read P/F and mostly Med Cirriculum could give you an advantage for OMFS, not sure about Ortho. Some schools like UCLA, UCSF, UConn also give IS after a year if you want to save some money.
You should also look at schools which give time off for externships and studying for CBSE.

Good luck

 

[BlackThought]

OP from what I've read P/F and mostly Med Cirriculum could give you an advantage for OMFS, not sure about Ortho. Some schools like UCLA, UCSF, UConn also give IS after a year if you want to save some money.
You should also look at schools which give time off for externships and studying for CBSE.

So if you're a troll, well done. Your inability to digest and interpret the information presented to you in the previous thread is almost impressive.

But I still feel like I need to address this. I don't want this new person to SDN to be fed false info.

1) No school is going to give you time off for studying for the CBSE. That's on your own time.
2) Some schools may give time allocated to externships, but that in no way should be a deal-breaker for a given school.
3) The med school curriculum theoretically may give some advantage, but based on the CBSE numbers I've seen and residents I've talked to, I don't necessarily think its co-related to higher CBSE scores. There are sub-par scores from both types of curriculums and great scores from both types of curriculums. I haven't done a comprehensive study on it, and don't plan to, although I know one is currently being done for 6 year programs.

Focus on being accepted to a dental school and then around your D2 year start preparing for OMFS applications. Anecdotally, I know a fair number of people that were so over-the-top about OMFS pre-dental school. None of them are in OMFS right now. They were so occupied by the future that they tripped over the present.

 

[753698]

So if you're a troll, well done. Your inability to digest and interpret the information presented to you in the previous thread is almost impressive.

But I still feel like I need to address this. I don't want this new person to SDN to be fed false info.

1) No school is going to give you time off for studying for the CBSE. That's on your own time.
2) Some schools may give time allocated to externships, but that in no way should be a deal-breaker for a given school.
3) The med school curriculum theoretically may give some advantage, but based on the CBSE numbers I've seen and residents I've talked to, I don't necessarily think its co-related to higher CBSE scores. There are sub-par scores from both types of curriculums and great scores from both types of curriculums. I haven't done a comprehensive study on it, and don't plan to, although I know one is currently being done for 6 year programs.

Focus on being accepted to a dental school and then around your D2 year start preparing for OMFS applications. Anecdotally, I know a fair number of people that were so over-the-top about OMFS pre-dental school. None of them are in OMFS right now. They were so occupied by the future that they tripped over the present.

I didn’t mean to spread false info my bad. I was just saying some schools give more time off which you can use to study for the CBSE or do externships. Not that they give time off specifically to do those things. You could also take a vacation in that time. It’s up to you.

If OP has the stats he might as well apply to these types of schools. It can’t possibly hurt. And at the end of the day every school will give you a DDS or DMD.
OP also said cost isn’t a factor.

 

[charlestweed]

I went to a P/F dental school. Since I didn’t plan to specialize, I just studied enough to pass all my classes. My school did give us every Monday morning off (AKA independent learning time) during our second year and many of us used this time to study for the national board and do research (research was required during my year). Our school actually encouraged us to specialize. After I found out that I did well on the national board part I exam, I decided to specialize. On the ortho applications, where they asked to list my class rank, I put down N/A and stated the reason that it’s a P/F school. My board exam score was the only thing that helped me get 7 interviews. I am not sure if I would have gotten the acceptance to ortho, if I went to a dental school that has GPA. For my year, 36 students (out of 72) matched to post grad (including GPR/AEGD) programs. The majority of my classmates, who did AEGD/GPR, later got accepted to endo, ortho, and OS programs. Some of my classmates went back to schools to specialize after practicing general dentistry for a few years. Going to a P/F school definitely helped us. Not having to prove how well we performed in dental school was a huge plus.

That was 15+ years ago. Now that both of the board exams are P/F, going to a P/F school probably no longer helps. There is a standardize test, CBSE, for the OS programs to compare the applicants. There is a new ADAT exam but I heard that most specialty programs don’t look at it.

 

[AayushKaneria]

I went to a P/F dental school. Since I didn’t plan to specialize, I just studied enough to pass all my classes. My school did give us every Monday morning off (AKA independent learning time) during our second year and many of us used this time to study for the national board and do research (research was required during my year). Our school actually encouraged us to specialize. After I found out that I did well on the national board part I exam, I decided to specialize. On the ortho applications, where they asked to list my class rank, I put down N/A and stated the reason that it’s a P/F school. My board exam score was the only thing that helped me get 7 interviews. I am not sure if I would have gotten the acceptance to ortho, if I went to a dental school that has GPA. For my year, 36 students (out of 72) matched to post grad (including GPR/AEGD) programs. The majority of my classmates, who did AEGD/GPR, later got accepted to endo, ortho, and OS programs. Some of my classmates went back to schools to specialize after practicing general dentistry for a few years. Going to a P/F school definitely helped us. Not having to prove how well we performed in dental school was a huge plus.

That was 15+ years ago. Now that both of the board exams are P/F, going to a P/F school probably no longer helps. There is a standardize test, CBSE, for the OS programs to compare the applicants. There is a new ADAT exam but I heard that most specialty programs don’t look at it.

What does P/F stand for? Sorry if I sound completely stupid.

 

[jda02624]

What does P/F stand for? Sorry if I sound completely stupid.

Pass/Fail

 

[princeafrica]

The cheapest school will help you specialize

 

[C.elegans]

Go to a school that

A. Has a very light clinical requirement for graduation
B. Gives time off for externships
C. P/F and no rank

No GPA/class rank to worry about and a light clinical load for graduation= more time for research, studying for standardized exams, networking, externships and etc.

Contrary to the narrative some people are trying to push, certain schools are much more supportive of their students specializing while other schools are only interested in producing good GPs. The latter schools are those with class rank, insanely high clinical requirements for graduation, and no time off for externships

 

[lemoncurry]

All schools that give a DDS or a DMD degree will help you become a dental specialist.

 

[2TH MVR]

All schools that give a DDS or a DMD degree will help you become a dental specialist.

What about a private DS like Midwestern Univ. Arizona? Anecdotally speaking it just seems that a traditional DS with specialty residencies will give you a better exposure and research opportunities for the different specialties.

 

[mmc12]

I think that graduating from a P/F school and having boards as P/F can be a hindrance for ortho... they have very little ability to rate your academics...

 

[Life of Pablo]

So if you're a troll, well done. Your inability to digest and interpret the information presented to you in the previous thread is almost impressive.

But I still feel like I need to address this. I don't want this new person to SDN to be fed false info.

1) No school is going to give you time off for studying for the CBSE. That's on your own time.
2) Some schools may give time allocated to externships, but that in no way should be a deal-breaker for a given school.
3) The med school curriculum theoretically may give some advantage, but based on the CBSE numbers I've seen and residents I've talked to, I don't necessarily think its co-related to higher CBSE scores. There are sub-par scores from both types of curriculums and great scores from both types of curriculums. I haven't done a comprehensive study on it, and don't plan to, although I know one is currently being done for 6 year programs.

Focus on being accepted to a dental school and then around your D2 year start preparing for OMFS applications. Anecdotally, I know a fair number of people that were so over-the-top about OMFS pre-dental school. None of them are in OMFS right now. They were so occupied by the future that they tripped over the present.

I don't mean to argue about this, but going to a school with integrated medical school classes DOES help - I don't think it's just a theory. My s/o goes to Columbia and they're learning about neurology, psychiatry, etc right now while I'm trying to cram for a quiz about dental alloys...... point is, taking medical classes definitely helps and you learn so much more relevant info geared towards the CBSE. Also, it's true that schools don't give dedicated CBSE time, but SOME schools give summers off between D1-D2 and D2-D3. These summers can be spent studying for the CBSE or even doing research if you are interested in a specialty like Ortho.

 

[schmoob]

I don't mean to argue about this, but going to a school with integrated medical school classes DOES help - I don't think it's just a theory. My s/o goes to Columbia and they're learning about neurology, psychiatry, etc right now while I'm trying to cram for a quiz about dental alloys...... point is, taking medical classes definitely helps and you learn so much more relevant info geared towards the CBSE. Also, it's true that schools don't give dedicated CBSE time, but SOME schools give summers off between D1-D2 and D2-D3. These summers can be spent studying for the CBSE or even doing research if you are interested in a specialty like Ortho.

I'm trying to figure out which dental school DOESN'T teach neuro or psych, Columbia isnt the only one who has it in their curriculum.
Biomaterials is an important topic too. Just remember: Gamma2=BAD! Good luck on the quiz

 

[C.elegans]

I'm trying to figure out which dental school DOESN'T teach neuro or psych, Columbia isnt the only one who has it in their curriculum.
Biomaterials is an important topic too. Just remember: Gamma2=BAD! Good luck on the quiz

Neuro and psych in dental school is a VERY watered down version of what you get in Med school. Not even a comparison. Columbia dental students take the SAME classes with their medical counterparts and take the same exams.

 

[sb.tnh]

I'm trying to figure out which dental school DOESN'T teach neuro or psych, Columbia isnt the only one who has it in their curriculum.
Biomaterials is an important topic too. Just remember: Gamma2=BAD! Good luck on the quiz

Psych means psychiatry right? My state school doesn't teach that, and our Neuro class is very diluted to the point that we learned almost nothing.

 

[BlackThought]

Neuro and psych in dental school is a VERY watered down version of what you get in Med school. Not even a comparison. Columbia dental students take the SAME classes with their medical counterparts and take the same exams.

Cool. Using the all caps makes things a lot more clearer. But to be honest, having a borderline-decent understanding of psych and neuro really don't come into play until clerkship rotations in medical school. They aren't the most high yield topics for the Step 1 or NBME.

 

[princeafrica]

I sometimes wonder why some people on SDN didn’t just apply and go to medical school.

Some people sound like they tell their family and friends they’re in med school not dental

 

[Life of Pablo]

I sometimes wonder why some people on SDN didn’t just apply and go to medical school.

Some people sound like they tell their family and friends they’re in med school not dental

Because oral surgery is the best surgical specialty in medicine and dentistry, and I'd rather have general dentistry to fall back on than being a family practice physician (no offense).

 

[BluntForceTrauma]

Because oral surgery is the best surgical specialty in medicine and dentistry, and I'd rather have general dentistry to fall back on than being a family practice physician (no offense).

This

Though I have no aspirations towards OMFS.

 

[princeafrica]

Because oral surgery is the best surgical specialty in medicine and dentistry, and I'd rather have general dentistry to fall back on than being a family practice physician (no offense).

Wow truth

But idk about best surgical speciality. Orthopedic surgeons seem to have a cool gig

 

[ab117]

Wow truth

But idk about best surgical speciality. Orthopedic surgeons seem to have a cool gig

If you value income over lifestyle you may be right. Orthopedic surgeons, like most physicians, work >40 hours a week, whereas OMFS (post-residency of course) on average work <40. Orthopedics makes more money, but OMFS still make more than enough to be extremely financially comfortable. That's why it seems to me and a lot of other people who were maybe a little on the fence between medical and dental school to give you the best of both worlds. It's a fulfilling, high-skill, high-income, procedure-based career where you still have lots of free time outside of work with control over your own regular schedule.

 

[Life of Pablo]

If you value income over lifestyle you may be right. Orthopedic surgeons, like most physicians, work >40 hours a week, whereas OMFS (post-residency of course) on average work <40. Orthopedics makes more money, but OMFS still make more than enough to be extremely financially comfortable. That's why it seems to me and a lot of other people who were maybe a little on the fence between medical and dental school to give you the best of both worlds. It's a fulfilling, high-skill, high-income, procedure-based career where you still have lots of free time outside of work with control over your own regular schedule.

Yeah and not that income matters that much, but many private practice OMFS make more than orthopedic surgeons.

 

[princeafrica]

If you value income over lifestyle you may be right. Orthopedic surgeons, like most physicians, work >40 hours a week, whereas OMFS (post-residency of course) on average work <40. Orthopedics makes more money, but OMFS still make more than enough to be extremely financially comfortable. That's why it seems to me and a lot of other people who were maybe a little on the fence between medical and dental school to give you the best of both worlds. It's a fulfilling, high-skill, high-income, procedure-based career where you still have lots of free time outside of work with control over your own regular schedule.

I guess most orthopedic surgeons. But the ones in my area work less than that.

I shadowed by friend’s hand surgeon and he worked 3-4 days a week and was making $800k+ and had full autonomy

But then again I’ve met an endodontist making more than that in just 6 months lol

 

[AppalachianDentalBoy]

Yeah and not that income matters that much, but many private practice OMFS make more than orthopedic surgeons.

Income for surgeons really depends on drive and business acumen. When you own the MRI, employ OTs or PTs, and own a part of the surgery center you operate in an orthopod in private practice makes a killing compared his/her employed counterpart.

OMS can make a killing running a t&t practice or can branch out into some really cool cosmetic and reconstructive stuff. Lots of business opportunities in both. I know specialists who own GP offices and get all of their referrals from the employed GPs. Quite a lot of money, quite a lot of headache.

 

[ab117]

I guess most orthopedic surgeons. But the ones in my area work less than that.

I shadowed by friend’s hand surgeon and he worked 3-4 days a week and was making $800k+ and had full autonomy

But then again I’ve met an endodontist making more than that in just 6 months lol

Yeah but we shouldn't be evaluating potential careers based on outlier potential, we can't really compare either your friend's hand surgeon or your endodontist friend to each other or to an average OMFS haha, they're both major outliers and that essentially lands them in the realm of anecdotal evidence. The comparison boils down to assuming you'll be within a standard deviation of the median income/hours and asking yourself how comfortable you are there. Just like Life of Pablo, my conclusion was that OMFS provides better balance in the middle of the bell curve than many medical specialties offer in the middle of the bell curve, and that I would prefer being a median practice-owning general dentist than a median family practitioner assuming things didn't go according to plan. For my interests and preferences, shooting for becoming an average OMFS and possibly landing among average GP dentists has a much better risk-reward balance than the average possibilities I researched in medicine.

 

[sb.tnh]

Yeah but we shouldn't be evaluating potential careers based on outlier potential, we can't really compare either your friend's hand surgeon or your endodontist friend to each other or to an average OMFS haha, they're both major outliers and that essentially lands them in the realm of anecdotal evidence. The comparison boils down to assuming you'll be within a standard deviation of the median income/hours and asking yourself how comfortable you are there. Just like Life of Pablo, my conclusion was that OMFS provides better balance in the middle of the bell curve than many medical specialties offer in the middle of the bell curve, and that I would prefer being a median practice-owning general dentist than a median family practitioner assuming things didn't go according to plan. For my interests and preferences, shooting for becoming an average OMFS and possibly landing among average GP dentists has a much better risk-reward balance than the average possibilities I researched in medicine.

Out of curiosity, how is life as a median general dentist compare to that of a median family physician?

 

[ab117]

Out of curiosity, how is life as a median general dentist compare to that of a median family physician?

One of the main draws to dentistry for many of us is that it’s a procedure based career. A lot of people prefer working with their hands, which you generally don’t do as much in medicine outside of surgical specialties. If you really want to get into it try searching through both the medical and dental forums or start shadowing, both methods will give you way more information than I can.

 

[sb.tnh]

One of the main draws to dentistry for many of us is that it’s a procedure based career. A lot of people prefer working with their hands, which you generally don’t do as much in medicine outside of surgical specialties. If you really want to get into it try searching through both the medical and dental forums or start shadowing, both methods will give you way more information than I can.

Lol I'm a current dental student so I know a bit about dentistry and almost nothing about medicine, I just asked that question because I am honestly curious. I was between pre-dent and pre-med back in undergrad but now I'm already way too deep in dental school for any second thoughts. Thanks for the reply anyways!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Columbia dental students take the SAME classes with their medical counterparts and take the same exams.

My friend graduated from Columbia. He said they took watered down versions of the exams and the med students sometimes made fun of them for it. Maybe things have changed in the last few years, but I doubt it.

Big Hoss

 

[surfline]

My friend graduated from Columbia. He said they took watered down versions of the exams and the med students sometimes made fun of them for it. Maybe things have changed in the last few years, but I doubt it.

Big Hoss

I’m pretty sure Harvard is the only dental program where the students are true medical students during the first year

 

[Life of Pablo]

My friend graduated from Columbia. He said they took watered down versions of the exams and the med students sometimes made fun of them for it. Maybe things have changed in the last few years, but I doubt it.

Big Hoss

Yeah exams are not 100% the same, but they're like 90% the same. They still get taught the same material. What I will tell you that is "watered down" is the fact that exams are take home and they only need a 70% to pass and sometimes even lower.

And - to anyone from Columbia reading this post - yes I know passing can still be difficult at times. I'm just jealous

 

[princeafrica]

Yeah exams are not 100% the same, but they're like 90% the same. They still get taught the same material. What I will tell you that is "watered down" is the fact that exams are take home and they only need a 70% to pass and sometimes even lower.

And - to anyone from Columbia reading this post - yes I know passing can still be difficult at times. I'm just jealous

Wait, exams are take home??

 

[Life of Pablo]

Wait, exams are take home??

Yes. You can take them wherever you want. Obviously you’re not supposed to work with people or look things up....but yeah.

 

[princeafrica]

Yes. You can take them wherever you want. Obviously you’re not supposed to work with people or look things up....but yeah.

Future PreDent: “I want to specialize. What are the cons of going to a school with in class exams? Is 200k more worth it to go to Columbia where exams are take home if I wanna specialize?”