When a nurse is your health-care provider, you’re at risk

[studenthealth12]

Ah the ultimate troll maneuver of trying to say that we don't care about what's best for patients.

To be very clear - I care very much about what is best for patients. Nurse practitioners acting as primary care providers without supervision is NOT what's best for patients. I firmly believe that they provide inferior care.

The existing research is inadequate at best to draw any conclusions about the quality of care they provide, and disingenuous at worst.

Which is why hundreds of medical groups allow nurse practitioners to see patients at offices they own where no physician is present. Oh yes and thousands of hospitals do the same. It's sad all of these physicians subject their patients to such horrible care.

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[SouthernSurgeon]

Which is why hundreds of medical groups allow nurse practitioners to see patients at offices they own where no physician is present. Oh yes and thousands of hospitals do the same. It's sad all of these physicians subject their patients to such horrible care.

They do it because it's financially convenient, not because they believe it is high quality care. But I wouldn't expect a non-clinician MHA to say anything different...

 

[username456789]

Which is why hundreds of medical groups allow nurse practitioners to see patients at offices they own where no physician is present. Oh yes and thousands of hospitals do the same. It's sad all of these physicians subject their patients to such horrible care.

As SS pointed out, you're clearly trolling, but I'll indulge you. This is entirely out of financial convenience. The fact that anyone would erroneously conclude that it had something to do with equality of care is kind of hilarious.

 

[studenthealth12]

As SS, you're clearly trolling, but I'll indulge you. This is entirely out of financial convenience. The fact that anyone would erroneously conclude that it had something to do with equality of care is kind of hilarious.

So just to be clear. Physicians are placing finances above quality care?

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

Administrations (not necessarily physicians) are placing finances above the highest quality care, yes.

Note that most people here aren't saying that NPs provide terrible or dangerous care - but to call it equivalent is something that just hasn't been shown.

 

[studenthealth12]

Administrations (not necessarily physicians) are placing finances above the highest quality care, yes.

Physicians run physician groups. Physicians run medical staffs at hospitals. If practicing physicians in groups or hospitals were really concerned, trust me it would not happen.

 

[studenthealth12]

They do it because it's financially convenient, not because they believe it is high quality care. But I wouldn't expect a non-clinician MHA to say anything different...

So once again. Why then do physicians choose finances over quality care?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Physicians run physician groups. Physicians run medical staffs at hospitals. If practicing physicians in groups or hospitals were really concerned, trust me it would not happen.

Sometimes physicians run physician groups. Sometimes not. Hospitals and large health systems are rarely run by physicians. Just look at anesthesiology - anesthesia management companies are very rarely run by physicians.

But either way it's beside the point. Some physicians do value finances over quality, usually because they have skin in the game.

So once again. Why then do physicians choose finances over quality care?

Because it's in their own financial interests to do so. This isn't hard.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Administrations (not necessarily physicians) are placing finances above the highest quality care, yes.

Note that most people here aren't saying that NPs provide terrible or dangerous care - but to call it equivalent is something that just hasn't been shown.

Some physicians think that NP should not be allowed to practice medicine at all...

 

[67552931811]

Some physicians think that NP should not be allowed to practice medicine at all...

Brb, going to buy my NP degree online...

 

[studenthealth12]

Sometimes physicians run physician groups. Sometimes not. Hospitals and large health systems are rarely run by physicians. Just look at anesthesiology - anesthesia management companies are very rarely run by physicians.

But either way it's beside the point. Some physicians do value finances over quality, usually because they have skin in the game.



Because it's in their own financial interests to do so. This isn't hard.

Thank you for being honest.

 

[username456789]

Some physicians think that NP should not be allowed to practice medicine at all...

Of course they shouldn't. Even the nurse practitioners agree . . . they hem and haw and swear up and down that they're practicing "nursing" and not medicine. I mean, they're full of ****, but that's what they say.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Of course they shouldn't. Even the nurse practitioners agree . . . they hem and haw and swear up and down that they're practicing "nursing" and not medicine. I mean, they're full of ****, but that's what they say.

They are not full of ****, to the contrary you're just insufficiently nuanced in the semantic bowel movement coming out of Big Nursing.

 

[cbrons]

So with full autonomy a neuro NP can switch to EM and practice independently without any extra training but a neurologist who wanted to practice EM would have to do a 3 year residency. This full autonomy thing does not seem like a way of achieving "parity" when NPs and PAs can shuffle to and from any specialty they want with far less restrictions than physicians who already have 10x their training.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Where is the rest of the allnurses crowd? Just one? Come on guys you can do better than that! Show some support for your doctor nurse companions!!

 

[slopes23]

It's rude for some random preclinical student to try to call me out with an opinion that I don't care about. You don't know the first thing about m3-4 + residency. By the way, put them in their place would actually be PTITP

First off, I was calling Sirach out, who is clearly more emotionally stable then you because he took it in good fun and made a joke right back about it and that was it. If somehow you thought I was calling you out specifically, then it just goes to show how insecure you really are.

Next, if you think, on an Internet forum of all places, I give a rats ass that you are an M3 when it comes to what is good/bad sarcasm (and I was kidding anyways) then you are sorely mistaken. You get no extra brownie points for being a medical student longer then me when it comes to such unrelated to medicine things.

Get over yourself. Your not the greatest M3 that ever lived and you are literally 1 semester deep into your clinical training Mr. Big Shot. Don't act like you are the end all be all of M3-4 years and residency training information/knowledge/wisdom.

If you like acronyms then figure this one out. It's quite well known.

DILLIGAF

Some people...

 

[VisionaryTics]

If you like acronyms then figure this one out. It's quite well known.

DILLIGAF

Some people...

 

[giantswing]

So just to be clear. Physicians are placing finances above quality care?

The irony here is you're trying to make physicians look like the bad guy for doing this yet nps are doing this by practicing independantly.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

First off, I was calling Sirach out, who is clearly more emotionally stable then you because he took it in good fun and made a joke right back about it and that was it. If somehow you thought I was calling you out specifically, then it just goes to show how insecure you really are.

Next, if you think, on an Internet forum of all places, I give a rats ass that you are an M3 when it comes to what is good/bad sarcasm (and I was kidding anyways) then you are sorely mistaken. You get no extra brownie points for being a medical student longer then me when it comes to such unrelated to medicine things.

Get over yourself. Your not the greatest M3 that ever lived and you are literally 1 semester deep into your clinical training Mr. Big Shot. Don't act like you are the end all be all of M3-4 years and residency training information/knowledge/wisdom.

If you like acronyms then figure this one out. It's quite well known.

DILLIGAF

Some people...

Glad you got that off your chest.

 

[Psai]

So just to be clear. Physicians are placing finances above quality care?

This is what NPs are doing. That's why they aren't choosing primary care and that's why they want independent practice

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

This is what NPs are doing. That's why they aren't choosing primary care and that's why they want independent practice

It's also a hugely deceitful move to claim that allowing NPs independent practice will meet the needs of underserved/rural areas.

Turns out NPs don't want to live or practice in those areas either...they will just oversaturate already popular markets. They aren't all saints that want to go live in rural north dakota.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Did the recently turned blue member have a point? Can Physicians pontificate about patient safety while hiring NPs to work autonomously?

 

[touchpause13]

Did the recently turned blue member have a point? Can Physicians pontificate about patient safety while hiring NPs to work autonomously?

Some doctors are just dicks, we all know this. Some just aren't very politically aware either. Some have probably brought into the NP propaganda. it sucks but what are you going to do? Unfortunately physicians just aren't organized the way that the nursing lobby is, probably because most doctors and med students are busy actually working our asses off instead of writing fluff papers on patient feels and lobbying. We are at a huge disadvantage in this way, it's also common at least at my school to focus on interprofessionalism, and we are all part of a team and the like, while I've heard from people who have went to NP schools that they get indoctrinated that docs are the enemy. I mean look at what whatsherface was spouting off, those are talking points that she was clearly taught by someone.

 

[Jabbed]

Did the recently turned blue member have a point? Can Physicians pontificate about patient safety while hiring NPs to work autonomously?

If there's money in it..

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

If there's money in it..

If that's the answer, "Physicians put patients at risk to fatten their wallets", then maybe we deserve to be skewered.

 

[Nasrudin]

Some doctors are just dicks, we all know this. Some just aren't very politically aware either. Some have probably brought into the NP propaganda. it sucks but what are you going to do? Unfortunately physicians just aren't organized the way that the nursing lobby is, probably because most doctors and med students are busy actually working our asses off instead of writing fluff papers on patient feels and lobbying. We are at a huge disadvantage in this way, it's also common at least at my school to focus on interprofessionalism, and we are all part of a team and the like, while I've heard from people who have went to NP schools that they get indoctrinated that docs are the enemy. I mean look at what whatsherface was spouting off, those are talking points that she was clearly taught by someone.

There are models of this interaction in other spheres: In the same way that liberals think we created ISIL with our imperialist fantasies. We just haven't historically or culturally grasped what's happening or what we're up against in either case.. And, like you said, we're too busy training and working and trying to get along in the work place as clinical leaders to notice.

 

[Nasrudin]

Note I make no comparison between ISIL and Organized Nursing. Just the liberalized failure to respond appropriately in both cases.

 

[jl lin]

that is a good point. I would agree with you that in some settings it is not a great idea. In some settings, physicians who work with nurse practitioners should ensure that they are actually supervising them. However, in other settings such as primary care, this really does not make any sense. If my nurse practitioner is working with an orthopedic physician, you can guarantee that she is being supervised. On some level. In primary care though, I really do not see the need simply because the reality of what is happening has not shown us any statistics that this is a bad thing.

You are dangerously underestimating the complexity of many patients in primary care--even as they have a number of specialists following them. The PCP still monitors and pulls together a lot. Many specialists have long waits for appointments. The necessity of a strong, well-educated, and well-trained MD or DO as a PCP is essential for them. I could give a number of examples--which include both children with complex medical needs, as well as adults.

Make no mistake, as this independence expands, more lawsuits will come. It's about saving money not patients, and that is the saddest thing of all. Physicians need to stand strong and united, making the following very clear: "If you want to practice as a physician, you MUST become a physician through the same pathways that physicians do." No exceptions.

The wolf is in the hen house, and one wonders how many chickens will be devoured before physicians and physicians organizations say,"No more!"

And it's not b/c of lack of understanding necessarily that patients and families prefer physicians. I am a highly experienced, long-term--many, many years, critical care nurse. Guess what? I have family members that are medically complex, and there is no way in hell I am allowing an NP or PA to handle them. Nope. When you know the history and complexity of certain patients, it's just stupid to send them to any old body with some kind of license. I've learned and seen enough as a CCRN to know how idiotic that would be.

 

[SunnyCCM]

Been following quietly...Left nursing ALong time ago as I was sick of the bee hive mentality.

DNP Doctor of Nursing Practice makes my blood boil. Seriously, doctor and nurse should not be used in the same degree program. It confuses patients and the services are still not reimbursed at physician rate,so why bother with alphabet soup.

Exams-NCLEX RN=hahaha pass/fail
You are a nurse, be proud, move forward with your career.

MCAT, Step 1, 2, 3, Match-Residency

ABEM/ABIM certification=terrified, but pass
Fellowship CCM programs=another adventure.

At the end of the day, nurse=nurse, doctor=doctor, respectfully Sunny

 

[notbobtrustme]

You are dangerously underestimating the complexity of many patients in primary care--even as they have a number of specialists following them.

yep, we just worked-up a carcinoid syndrome in an otherwise healthy individual who came in with nausea/diarrhea/flushing for 3 weeks.

Would carcinoid even be on the differential for a NP?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

You are dangerously underestimating the complexity of many patients in primary care--even as they have a number of specialists following them. The PCP still monitors and pulls together a lot. Many specialists have long waits for appointments. The necessity of a strong, well-educated, and well-trained medical doctor or DO as a PCP is essential for them. I could give a number of examples--which include both children with complex medical needs, as well as adults.

Make no mistake, as this independence expands, more lawsuits will come. It's about saving money not patients, and that is the saddest thing of all. Physicians need to stand strong and united, making the following very clear: "If you want to practice as a physician, you MUST become a physician through the same pathways that physicians do." No exceptions.

The wolf is in the hen house, and one wonders how many chickens will be devoured before physicians and physicians organizations say,"No more!"

And it's not b/c of lack of understanding necessarily that patients and families prefer physicians. I am a highly experienced, long-term--many, many years, critical care nurse. Guess what? I have family members that are medically complex, and there is no way in hell I am allowing an NP or PA to handle them. Nope. When you know the history and complexity of certain patients, it's just stupid to send them to any old body with some kind of license. I've learned and seen enough as a CCRN to know how idiotic that would be.

I always find it interesting that some of the most vocally opposed people I've seen to independent NP practice are experienced nurses.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Some doctors are just dicks, we all know this. Some just aren't very politically aware either. Some have probably brought into the NP propaganda. it sucks but what are you going to do? Unfortunately physicians just aren't organized the way that the nursing lobby is, probably because most doctors and med students are busy actually working our asses off instead of writing fluff papers on patient feels and lobbying. We are at a huge disadvantage in this way, it's also common at least at my school to focus on interprofessionalism, and we are all part of a team and the like, while I've heard from people who have went to NP schools that they get indoctrinated that docs are the enemy. I mean look at what whatsherface was spouting off, those are talking points that she was clearly taught by someone.

The indoctrination started earlier than that because I remember during a class titled 'Nursing as Discipline and Profession' , the professor bring up a blog like that (not sure if it was SDN) showing physicians somewhat bashing nurses... When I decided to go to med school, I asked that same prof for a LOR, she agreed to give it to me. Then I emailed her multiple times to follow up; she never replied to my emails. Later I met another nurse who had a similar experience, she told me that nurses are not usually happy when other nurses are going to med school. I don't know whether that is true or not... Anyway, that was when I figured out she was not going to give that LOR. In nursing school, 'We are the patient advocate' and 'Physicians often times are not in patients best interest' were drilled in our head...

 

[Psai]

I always find it interesting that some of the most vocally opposed people I've seen to independent NP practice are experienced nurses.

And the most passionate proponents are pre-nursing or nursing students who aspire to being an NP. It's all the same crap too, about those useless studies, independent practice for however many years, equivalent outcomes, they are doctors too blah blah blah. "We provide holistic care for the whole patient, not just symptoms" "Our job is to make sure that the doctor doesn't kill the patient" yawn

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

'We are the patient advocate' and 'Physicians often times are not in patients best interest' were drilled in our head...

 

[jl lin]

Been following quietly...Left nursing ALong time ago as I was sick of the bee hive mentality.

DNP Doctor of Nursing Practice makes my blood boil. Seriously, doctor and nurse should not be used in the same degree program. It confuses patients and the services are still not reimbursed at physician rate,so why bother with alphabet soup.

Exams-NCLEX RN=hahaha pass/fail
You are a nurse, be proud, move forward with your career.

MCAT, Step 1, 2, 3, Match-Residency

ABEM/ABIM certification=terrified, but pass
Fellowship CCM programs=another adventure.

At the end of the day, nurse=nurse, doctor=doctor, respectfully Sunny

ITA, but, well, back in the day, NCLEX I took was not P/F. You got hard numbers and it was a two day affair. But it does NOT change your point at all. Bee Hive mentality. LOL

 

[jl lin]

The indoctrination started earlier than that because I remember during a class titled 'Nursing as Discipline and Profession' , the professor bring up a blog like that (not sure if it was SDN) showing physicians somewhat bashing nurses... When I decided to go to med school, I asked that same prof for a LOR, she agreed to give it to me. Then I emailed her multiple times to follow up; she never replied to my emails. Later I met another nurse who had a similar experience, she told me that nurses are not usually happy when other nurses are going to med school. I don't know whether that is true or not... Anyway, that was when I figured out she was not going to give that LOR. In nursing school, 'We are the patient advocate' and 'Physicians often times are not in patients best interest' were drilled in our head...

Well that is ratty as well as petty. What does she care if you decide to move into medicine and follow the proper channels to do so? What's wrong with people? An advocate is anyone that truly cares enough to go the extra mile for the patient and put them and their needs first. The title has nothing to do with having this ability.

 

[SunnyCCM]

Where is the rest of the allnurses crowd? Just one? Come on guys you can do better than that! Show some support for your doctor nurse companions!!

Thought this was a "student doctor forum?" Don't nurses have their own place to vent/troll...whatever.
Sunny Side Up Doctors

 

[touchpause13]

The indoctrination started earlier than that because I remember during a class titled 'Nursing as Discipline and Profession' , the professor bring up a blog like that (not sure if it was SDN) showing physicians somewhat bashing nurses... When I decided to go to med school, I asked that same prof for a LOR, she agreed to give it to me. Then I emailed her multiple times to follow up; she never replied to my emails. Later I met another nurse who had a similar experience, she told me that nurses are not usually happy when other nurses are going to med school. I don't know whether that is true or not... Anyway, that was when I figured out she was not going to give that LOR. In nursing school, 'We are the patient advocate' and 'Physicians often times are not in patients best interest' were drilled in our head...

I have a good friend who is a nurse. He told me a story about nursing school, during the first week they did introductions. One of the guys said he was getting his BSN in order to go to medical school. He was never seen in class again. The running story was that he got kicked from the program for that comment.

 

[Nasrudin]

The indoctrination started earlier than that because I remember during a class titled 'Nursing as Discipline and Profession' , the professor bring up a blog like that (not sure if it was SDN) showing physicians somewhat bashing nurses... When I decided to go to med school, I asked that same prof for a LOR, she agreed to give it to me. Then I emailed her multiple times to follow up; she never replied to my emails. Later I met another nurse who had a similar experience, she told me that nurses are not usually happy when other nurses are going to med school. I don't know whether that is true or not... Anyway, that was when I figured out she was not going to give that LOR. In nursing school, 'We are the patient advocate' and 'Physicians often times are not in patients best interest' were drilled in our head...

Which is hilarious compared to real practice where busy floor nurses want zombies for patients. "There's something psych going on!" (Looks around for approval of these astute clinical skills). "Page the intern to get stat haldol!" (Smug self confidence in the rear seat drivers position). Ok would you mind getting an EKG. "I'm way too busy for that now." (New York city nursing unions--where patient advocacy goes to die). I get the EKG. Qtc = a million. Nurse is on break, can't find her. Get angry page with lecture about patient and nursing neglect. Explain clinical reason for not giving antipsychotic. Dogma unscathed. Rinse repeat.

We're dealing in ideological war fare against zealots, not this or that study results.

 

[Jabbed]

And the most passionate proponents are pre-nursing or nursing students who aspire to being an NP. It's all the same crap too, about those useless studies, independent practice for however many years, equivalent outcomes, they are doctors too blah blah blah. "We provide holistic care for the whole patient, not just symptoms" "Our job is to make sure that the doctor doesn't kill the patient" yawn

As much as we dismiss it, there are many, many people out there that buy into it. And they vote.

 

[touchpause13]

Which is hilarious compared to real practice where busy floor nurses want zombies for patients. "There's something psych going on!" (Looks around for approval of these astute clinical skills). "Page the intern to get stat haldol!" (Smug self confidence in the rear seat drivers position). Ok would mind getting an EKG. "I'm way too busy for that now." (New York city nursing unions--where patient advocacy goes to die). I get the EKG. Qtc = a million. Nurse is on break, can't find her. Get angry page with lecture about patient and nursing neglect. Explain clinical reason for not giving antipsychotic. Dogma unscathed. Rinse repeat.

We're dealing in ideological war fare against zealots, not this or that study results.

That doesn't sound infuriating at all

 

[Jabbed]

Seriously though, how is it that there are no physicians' lobbies out there combating this? Even though we're all pretty fractured among respective specialties, I find it hard to fathom why there isn't an anesth lobby fighting against CRNA encroachment for instance.

 

[SunnyCCM]

^^^^shift change, page unsuspecting MD, Haldol, Ativan...given eventually

Patient rapid response called.

Admit to ICU-Intensivist Service
Intubated, sedated, abnormal EKG from earlier noted. No longer a "problem patient" for the floor, sadly.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Which is hilarious compared to real practice where busy floor nurses want zombies for patients. "There's something psych going on!" (Looks around for approval of these astute clinical skills). "Page the intern to get stat haldol!" (Smug self confidence in the rear seat drivers position). Ok would you mind getting an EKG. "I'm way too busy for that now." (New York city nursing unions--where patient advocacy goes to die). I get the EKG. Qtc = a million. Nurse is on break, can't find her. Get angry page with lecture about patient and nursing neglect. Explain clinical reason for not giving antipsychotic. Dogma unscathed. Rinse repeat.

We're dealing in ideological war fare against zealots, not this or that study results.

Sigh. Don't get me started.

My favorite is the constant "pt requesting ambien to sleep" page. Then when I ask the patient about it the next morning they say "Oh, yeah, the nurse told me that ambien is really great and I just needed to ask for it."

Sigh.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I have a good friend who is a nurse. He told me a story about nursing school, during the first week they did introductions. One of the guys said he was getting his BSN in order to go to medical school. He was never seen in class again. The running story was that he got kicked from the program for that comment.

People in nursing can be really petty. I hope the camaraderie will be different among physicians. That guy was crazy for saying that, and I am not surprised they made it difficult for him to the point that quitting or leaving was the only option... I have seen prof failed students in clinical for no reason just because they did not like them... I was almost a victim to that kind of culture. A prof almost failed me in clinical because 'she did not like another person in clinical that was hanging out with'. That was her reason! She made my life so difficult to a point I had to ask administration to put me at another site (which was granted)... At the end of the rotation, my new clinical instruction approached me and told me 'I don't understand why she wanted to fail you because you are one of the best students I have had for a long time'. Then she went and asked my previous instructor why she wanted to fail me... That was when she told her that I am a good student, but she did not like another student I was hanging out with. She failed that person and he had to go to an appeal process--he won the appeal. He is a PA now... I also can give you so many stories working as a nurse, but that might take a whole day... To be honest, I don't think it's a good profession for male because in nursing there are often two group of female hating each other and you are constantly trying to avoid being in between. That was the case of most of the jobs I had in nursing, whether it was hospitals(2) or nursing home (1)... I just don't understand that culture of trying to look better than others and constantly talking about personal issues, which has no place in the workplace...

 

[fancymylotus]

Been following quietly...Left nursing ALong time ago as I was sick of the bee hive mentality.

DNP Doctor of Nursing Practice makes my blood boil. Seriously, doctor and nurse should not be used in the same degree program. It confuses patients and the services are still not reimbursed at physician rate,so why bother with alphabet soup.

Exams-NCLEX RN=hahaha pass/fail
You are a nurse, be proud, move forward with your career.

MCAT, Step 1, 2, 3, Match-Residency

ABEM/ABIM certification=terrified, but pass
Fellowship CCM programs=another adventure.

At the end of the day, nurse=nurse, doctor=doctor, respectfully Sunny

I like you

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Which is hilarious compared to real practice where busy floor nurses want zombies for patients. "There's something psych going on!" (Looks around for approval of these astute clinical skills). "Page the intern to get stat haldol!" (Smug self confidence in the rear seat drivers position). Ok would you mind getting an EKG. "I'm way too busy for that now." (New York city nursing unions--where patient advocacy goes to die). I get the EKG. Qtc = a million. Nurse is on break, can't find her. Get angry page with lecture about patient and nursing neglect. Explain clinical reason for not giving antipsychotic. Dogma unscathed. Rinse repeat.

We're dealing in ideological war fare against zealots, not this or that study results.

Physicians are not going to win that war because they often take the high road...

 

[jl lin]

Which is hilarious compared to real practice where busy floor nurses want zombies for patients. "There's something psych going on!" (Looks around for approval of these astute clinical skills). "Page the intern to get stat haldol!" (Smug self confidence in the rear seat drivers position). Ok would you mind getting an EKG. "I'm way too busy for that now." (New York city nursing unions--where patient advocacy goes to die). I get the EKG. Qtc = a million. Nurse is on break, can't find her. Get angry page with lecture about patient and nursing neglect. Explain clinical reason for not giving antipsychotic. Dogma unscathed. Rinse repeat.

We're dealing in ideological war fare against zealots, not this or that study results.

This is sad and shameful in my view. I am not sure to which hospitals you are referring. As a Critical Care RN, well, we often function quite differently from floor nurses, but certainly this is not all floor nurses. Of course, these make up some of the RNs that don't make in the ICUs. When I did spend some time on the floor, well, no decent nurse would have ever said they are too busy to either do or get an EKG done. This is beyond embarrassing and so totally sad. Of course, I've pretty much not worked under any nursing union. The only thing I like about some nursing unions is when nursing beats up on their own to kick an otherwise good nurse out. I have seen this more than few times--nurses eating their own just scratches the surface.

Yes, I would say many in the nursing ivory towers are thinking like zealots--politically and otherwise.

 

[jl lin]

People in nursing can be really petty. I hope the camaraderie will be different among physicians. That guy was crazy for saying that, and I am not surprised they made it difficult for him to the point that quitting or leaving was the only option... I have seen prof failed students in clinical for no reason just because they did not like them... I was almost a victim to that kind of culture. A prof almost failed me in clinical because 'she did not like another person in clinical that was hanging out with'. That was her reason! She made my life so difficult to a point I had to ask administration to put me at another site (which was granted)... At the end of the rotation, my new clinical instruction approached me and told me 'I don't understand why she wanted to fail you because you are one of the best students I have had for a long time'. Then she went and asked my previous instructor why she wanted to fail me... That was when she told her that I am a good student, but she did not like another student I was hanging out with. She failed that person and he had to go to an appeal process--he won the appeal. He is a PA now... I also can give you so many stories working as a nurse, but that might take a whole day... To be honest, I don't think it's a good profession for male because in nursing there are often two group of female hating each other and you are constantly trying to avoid being in between. That was the case of most of the jobs I had in nursing, whether it was hospitals(2) or nursing home (1)... I just don't understand that culture of trying to look better than others and constantly talking about personal issues, which has no place in the workplace...

Seen it many times. Thankfully I have also worked with some stellar nurses and docs. I think at least some of that is the path I took. I loathe grossly non-objective evaluations. In any profession or system, more subjective and less objective measures for evaluation = utter BS.

 

[Nasrudin]

Physicians are not going to win that war because they often take the high road...

Yep, I agree. We assume our level of meritocracy, professionalism, and training in deference and team building are universally held prerogatives.

Whereas nurses are taught to imbibe a potent mixture of Bolshevism and The Culture of Offendedness which are made all the more slick by operating on a subconscious level. And explains pefectly why places like Portland have no natural defenses against them whereas as places like Texas call bull****.

The failures of the left permeate our medical schools like the aging baby boomers who run them.