What's your fall back position?

[Trankuil]

Science and religion should compliment each other and back each other up. That doesnt mean we can make all of the connections now though. I think sceince proves the existence of a God and will continue to the more we learn. Thats my two cents without being biast to any religion.

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[rxlea]

Science will begin to fill the gaps. Organized religion has caused too much pain and suffering. Perhaps science and spirituality should complement each other...not science and religion.

 

[Trankuil]

Yes some of the most horrific events in history were committed in the name of religion, but not all "religion" is bad. To me "spirituality" falls in the middle ground talked about above.

 

[rxlea]

Yes some of the most horrific events in history were committed in the name of religion, but not all "religion" is bad. To me "spirituality" falls in the middle ground talked about above.

What exactly do you mean by this statement?

Horrific things are still committed in the name of religion as well as hatred, discrimination, oppression, etc. That has not changed.

 

[ttopping]

What exactly do you mean by this statement?

Horrific things are still committed in the name of religion as well as hatred, discrimination, oppression, etc. That has not changed.

Horrific things are also committed by bad people for the sake of committing horrific things. What exactly do you mean by spirituality? When I see that I think of the we're all one with the universe hippie kind of mindset

 

[rxlea]

Horrific things are also committed by bad people for the sake of committing horrific things. What exactly do you mean by spirituality? When I see that I think of the we're all one with the universe hippie kind of mindset

Then you have a very limited perspective. The "one with the universe" is not some sort of hippie invention. I can see how you would think that if you are filtering everything through your own belief system.

But, I do not want this thread to degenerate. So, I will refrain from discussing it further.

 

[Trankuil]

What exactly do you mean by this statement?

Horrific things are still committed in the name of religion as well as hatred, discrimination, oppression, etc. That has not changed.

I mean to me, the notion of "spirituality" not tied to religion is like a void of I want to believe if it benifits me, or I dont really know what to believe so ill just say im spiritual. Most "spiritual" people that i know are affiliated with a particular religion, and people wanting "spirituality" are more looking for excuses or reasons out of things. This is just my experience though. Your right that horrific things are still committed in the name of religion, and will probably continue...but horrific things are committed in the names of other things as well, like money, or greed, or racism, or superiority, or elitism, or business, or many other things. My point was not to just point all blame of horrific acts on religion, because many great things have been done because of religion as well.

 

[ChemistWiz]

I mean to me, the notion of "spirituality" not tied to religion is like a void of I want to believe if it benifits me, or I dont really know what to believe so ill just say im spiritual. Most "spiritual" people that i know are affiliated with a particular religion, and people wanting "spirituality" are more looking for excuses or reasons out of things. This is just my experience though. Your right that horrific things are still committed in the name of religion, and will probably continue...but horrific things are committed in the names of other things as well, like money, or greed, or racism, or superiority, or elitism, or business, or many other things. My point was not to just point all blame of horrific acts on religion, because many great things have been done because of religion as well.

Religion is corrupt,it is lead by an organization that tells us what's correct and what's not correct. Believing in a spiritual philosophy is not religion anymore, religion is corrupt, spirituality has taken over the title of religion.

 

[ttopping]

Then you have a very limited perspective. The "one with the universe" is not some sort of hippie invention. I can see how you would think that if you are filtering everything through your own belief system.

But, I do not want this thread to degenerate. So, I will refrain from discussing it further.

That's why I asked you what you meant by it...people have different definitions of spirituality. I was being a little overly sarcastic in my asking. I would also point out that a narrow viewpoint of religion committing horrible acts is pretty limited too. People also do great things in the name of religion.

 

[ttopping]

Religion is corrupt,it is lead by an organization that tells us what's correct and what's not correct. Believing in a spiritual philosophy is not religion anymore, religion is corrupt, spirituality has taken over the title of religion.

You group religion into a single organization like it wants to take over the world. Murder is bad, greed is bad, love one another, treat people with respect. Oh yea, they're really out of line telling me what's right and what's not, how much more corrupt can you get...not saying it's not out there, but generalized statements like that are just ridiculous

 

[Trankuil]

Religion is corrupt,it is lead by an organization that tells us what's correct and what's not correct. Believing in a spiritual philosophy is not religion anymore, religion is corrupt, spirituality has taken over the title of religion.

The last half of what you said makes no sense. Not all religion is corrupt, even though some is. My arguement isnt about corruption, but about the false notion that "all" religion is corrupt. And I dont know what you mean by spirituality has taken over the title of religion, because it hasnt. Just because you dont affiliate yourself to a specific religion doesnt mean what you say is true.

 

[UNMorBUST]

Religion is corrupt,

All institutions have corruption. Power corrupts, period.

it is lead by an organization that tells us what's correct and what's not correct.

All religion is lead by one organization? No. If you don't like what a specific religion preaches, don't follow it.

Believing in a spiritual philosophy is not religion anymore,

what?

religion is corrupt, spirituality has taken over the title of religion.

what?

 

[ChemistWiz]

You group religion into a single organization like it wants to take over the world. Murder is bad, greed is bad, love one another, treat people with respect. Oh yea, they're really out of line telling me what's right and what's not, how much more corrupt can you get...not saying it's not out there, but generalized statements like that are just ridiculous

I didn't mean to come off that way. I meant organized religion, something like a high power church affiliation. It allows hipocracy to exist. I didn't mean Religion as a whole, I meant organized religon, something like a Christian baptist church making up rules that make it hypocritical. I meant that Religion is the belief of a spiritual philosophy and religion is more and more getting linked to negative things so people use words like spirituality.

 

[SHC1984]

There is no God. Stop being delusional.

 

[ChemistWiz]

There is no God. Stop being delusional.

I you

 

[SHC1984]

I you

LOVE YOU MORE!!!! I live in the south which is pretty much the bible belt. Tons of delusional freaks here talking about a imaginery man that doesn't exist. It's funny to hear at least.

Ps. there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny or Cookie monster either! Sorry folks!

 

[Charlemagne]

LOVE YOU MORE!!!! I live in the south which is pretty much the bible belt. Tons of delusional freaks here talking about a imaginery man that doesn't exist. It's funny to hear at least.

Ps. there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny or Cookie monster either! Sorry folks!

If only there was a p-value for this statement....

 

[ttopping]

There is no God. Stop being delusional.

That statement holds about as much weight as if I said there is a God, stop being ignorant

p.s. cookie monster is so real, i've seen him on tv and you can't lie on there so you shush =P

 

[SHC1984]

That statement holds about as much weight as if I said there is a God, stop being ignorant

I'll believe it when I see it. Too bad NO ONE has!

 

[ttopping]

I didn't mean to come off that way. I meant organized religion, something like a high power church affiliation. It allows hipocracy to exist. I didn't mean Religion as a whole, I meant organized religon, something like a Christian baptist church making up rules that make it hypocritical. I meant that Religion is the belief of a spiritual philosophy and religion is more and more getting linked to negative things so people use words like spirituality.

I agree that some extremists can get linked to [very] weird things and but I don't really know about the increase in negative things you're talking about. I feel that people use words like spirituality if they don't really know what they believe, they just might believe in something, which isn't religious at all (a specific belief). I kinda see what you're trying to get at, but there's more to it than extremists.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I never say "there is no God." The possibility exists that I am, in fact, God himself. I don't want to somehow **** that up if it turns out I might get to be all omnipotent and stuff later on at some point.

 

[ttopping]

I'll believe it when I see it. Too bad NO ONE has!

You don't see a lot of things and yet believe they exist. That's why it's a belief. If you don't believe in God simply because you can't see it then there's obviously no arguing with you, you've got it all figured out.

 

[ChemistWiz]

I agree that some extremists can get linked to [very] weird things and but I don't really know about the increase in negative things you're talking about. I feel that people use words like spirituality if they don't really know what they believe, they just might believe in something, which isn't religious at all (a specific belief). I kinda see what you're trying to get at, but there's more to it than extremists.

agree to disagree?

SHC. you are the perfect woman

 

[ttopping]

I never say "there is no God." The possibility exists that I am, in fact, God himself. I don't want to somehow **** that up if it turns out I might get to be all omnipotent and stuff later on at some point.

I always do enjoy reading your posts

On that note, conversations like this are never worth the debate, nobody gets anywhere.

Not to mention, tomorrow's my last day of my first rotation w00t!

 

[SHC1984]

You don't see a lot of things and yet believe they exist. That's why it's a belief. If you don't believe in God simply because you can't see it then there's obviously no arguing with you, you've got it all figured out.

A good friend of mine believes in God and we spent hours arguing about this topic. He told me the same thing you said. He saids that I can't see oxygen, but yet it exist. Well, I can't see oxygen, but I can feel it when the wind blows, we can see oxygen in balloons etc. So it's not all about what you can see or can't see. If you can't see something but can feel it, hear it etc. then it is still there. Everything I believe in is something that I can either see, feel, hear, smell etc. God however is the ONLY thing that can't be seen, felt, heard etc. Then my friend told me there has to be a God b/c human beings are so complex and there is no way anything so complex can just come into being without some kind of force. He thinks God is a force. Well, maybe....I guess I am not 100% about this "force", but since I have always been a scientific person it's very hard to believe.

 

[ttopping]

God however is the ONLY thing that can't be seen, felt, heard etc.

Last thing i'm gonna say

It depends on your definition of those things. It's not a literal/physical see or feel but seeing the things that can happen through God, and it really is a feeling you can get. Not of someone literally being there, but, going off of previous posts, more spiritual feeling (guess i had to use it haha). Edit: obviously if you don't believe then those aren't going to make sense, but just trying to explain where i'm coming from

I can completely understand from a scientific standpoint that yea, it would be really hard to believe because it can't be proven or explained. Obviously as someone who loves science such as myself, I get it. In general we both have our reasons and I respect that, and it's hard to explain your view to someone else. No hard feeling obviously, it's a tough conversation to get into without being a little defensive after someones attacking statements is all haha

 

[delano2000]

A good friend of mine believes in God and we spent hours arguing about this topic. He told me the same thing you said. He saids that I can't see oxygen, but yet it exist. Well, I can't see oxygen, but I can feel it when the wind blows, we can see oxygen in balloons etc. So it's not all about what you can see or can't see. If you can't see something but can feel it, hear it etc. then it is still there. Everything I believe in is something that I can either see, feel, hear, smell etc. God however is the ONLY thing that can't be seen, felt, heard etc. Then my friend told me there has to be a God b/c human beings are so complex and there is no way anything so complex can just come into being without some kind of force. He thinks God is a force. Well, maybe....I guess I am not 100% about this "force", but since I have always been a scientific person it's very hard to believe.

Are those your lips in the avatar? Sorry for the random question.

 

[SHC1984]

Last thing i'm gonna say

It depends on your definition of those things. It's not a literal/physical see or feel but seeing the things that can happen through God, and it really is a feeling you can get. Not of someone literally being there, but, going off of previous posts, more spiritual feeling (guess i had to use it haha). Edit: obviously if you don't believe then those aren't going to make sense, but just trying to explain where i'm coming from

I can completely understand from a scientific standpoint that yea, it would be really hard to believe because it can't be proven or explained. Obviously as someone who loves science such as myself, I get it. In general we both have our reasons and I respect that, and it's hard to explain your view to someone else. No hard feeling obviously, it's a tough conversation to get into without being a little defensive after someones attacking statements is all haha

Fair enough. It is a tough converstion and no one knows for certain of anything. It's going to be a mystery forever.

 

[SHC1984]

Are those your lips in the avatar? Sorry for the random question.

haha...NO! I stole the picture off one of the facebook groups I am in. LOL...

 

[UNMorBUST]

Guys please be respectful about religion on these forums. Do not insult the beliefs of others.

On a side note. SHC you seem to have a young admirer. Could there be a romance a brewing.

 

[Thumper17]

Let me ask a random question that everytime i mention it my gf gets maaaaaad.....but here goes:

Do you think that human beings are gods or that we could be approaching that status in the near future? We can destroy worlds, eliminate diseases, etc. I don't think it is far-fetched to say that even the most day-to-day tasks we perform today would be seen as "god-like" during the times major religious texts were being written. Just a thought...don't think I am crazy

 

[UNMorBUST]

Let me ask a random question that everytime i mention it my gf gets maaaaaad.....but here goes:

Do you think that human beings are gods or that we could be approaching that status in the near future? We can destroy worlds, eliminate diseases, etc. I don't think it is far-fetched to say that even the most day-to-day tasks we perform today would be seen as "god-like" during the times major religious texts were being written. Just a thought...don't think I am crazy

Let me ask you. An astroid can destroy worlds. So by that definition would that not make it a god?

 

[ChemistWiz]

Let me ask a random question that everytime i mention it my gf gets maaaaaad.....but here goes:

Do you think that human beings are gods or that we could be approaching that status in the near future? We can destroy worlds, eliminate diseases, etc. I don't think it is far-fetched to say that even the most day-to-day tasks we perform today would be seen as "god-like" during the times major religious texts were being written. Just a thought...don't think I am crazy

On one end you see culture evolve and therefore people. We are definitely at the fulfilling of a 'god' from back in the day. However, our perception of God and gods has evolved from back then too, it is always something we can not achieve, but strive to. I think mankind wants something to exist, so we have a goal of what to be. Otherwise all we have to go off of is mankind and our own instincts.

UNM-shhhhh it's a secret

 

[Passion4Sci]

wow, I get busy for a couple days, come back and this thing's about religion again.

 

[delano2000]

haha...NO! I stole the picture off one of the facebook groups I am in. LOL...

Oh.

Guys please be respectful about religion on these forums. Do not insult the beliefs of others.

On a side note. SHC you seem to have a young admirer. Could there be a romance a brewing.

Haha. I have a fiancee but there is nothing wrong in looking.

I've been seeing how everyone keeps saying she is so fine, so I was just curious (trying to get a mental picture...not trying to be creepy at all).

 

[Passion4Sci]

There is no God. Stop being delusional.

Pretty much.

Any time someone says they believe in "god" I also ask if they believe in the Easter Bunny and/or Santa Claus, since either of those have the same amount of proof of existence.

The Bible is quite admittedly fiction and conjecture.

 

[busyizzy]

Pretty much.

Any time someone says they believe in "god" I also ask if they believe in the Easter Bunny and/or Santa Claus, since either of those have the same amount of proof of existence.

The Bible is quite admittedly fiction and conjecture.

I always told my mom I still believe in Santa Claus, so come Christmas, I can get two presents: one from my parents and one from "Santa Claus." I think this stopped working when I passed the age of 20 though ....

 

[owlegrad]

I'll believe it when I see it. Too bad NO ONE has!

Well, to be fair Moses did.

 

[busyizzy]

Well, to be fair Moses did.

I thought he saw a burning bush .... and who is to say it wasn't an actual burning bush and Moses hallucinating/another person voicing behind the bush?

 

[owlegrad]

Pretty much.

Any time someone says they believe in "god" I also ask if they believe in the Easter Bunny and/or Santa Claus, since either of those have the same amount of proof of existence.

The Bible is quite admittedly fiction and conjecture.

Is the absence of proof of existence the same as proof of non-existence?

 

[owlegrad]

I thought he saw a burning bush .... and who is to say it wasn't an actual burning bush and Moses hallucinating/another person voicing behind the bush?

He did see and speak to a burning bush, but that is not what I was refering to. He was allowed to see the back of God as He passed by.

Exodus 33:20-23

There are also some references to Moses and God speaking face to face.

 

[ChemistWiz]

He did see and speak to a burning bush, but that is not what I was refering to. He was allowed to see the back of God as He passed by.

Exodus 33:20-23

There are also some references to Moses and God speaking face to face.

Wouldn't that contradict what the bible said about not being able to see God's face?

This is why I don't use the bible as a source of proof it contradicts itself.

 

[UNMorBUST]

Wouldn't that contradict what the bible said about not being able to see God's face?

This is why I don't use the bible as a source of proof it contradicts itself.

http://www.firstcenturychristian.com/answers/answers_145.htm
Also i really hope you don't take the whole Bible as a literal account of the past. Who can be eaten by a whale and live? It is meant to teach morals through stories.

 

[ChemistWiz]

http://www.firstcenturychristian.com/answers/answers_145.htm
Also i really hope you don't take the whole Bible as a literal account of the past. Who can be eaten by a whale and live? It is meant to teach morals through stories.

I understand that. I think the Bible is a great storybook. Yet it seems to me people pick and choose what they like from the Bible, and judge their beliefs on that. Why not choose Love instead of Hate?

 

[UNMorBUST]

I understand that. I think the Bible is a great storybook. Yet it seems to me people pick and choose what they like from the Bible, and judge their beliefs on that. Why not choose Love instead of Hate?

Then let me ask you. You say people pick and choose what they belive in. Is that not true for everybody? An Atheist chooses not to believe in a god or goddess. Greeks chose to believe in gods and goddesses who had features and lives much like their human counterparts.

 

[ChemistWiz]

Then let me ask you. You say people pick and choose what they belive in. Is that not true for everybody? An Atheist chooses not to believe in a god or goddess. Greeks chose to believe in gods and goddesses who had features and lives much like their human counterparts.

It's true. But my argument was that Christians follow the bible. But only believe certain parts of it that they choose to, and ignore other parts. That's hypocrisy, and I'm not a fan of it. However, some people can deal with it. Whatever gets you through the day I suppose.

 

[Passion4Sci]

Religion is a farce created by powerful people to control the weak-minded people who require something "bigger than themselves" to contribute to a society.

Simple as that...

Ever wonder why Jesus/God/whatever so conveniently has disappeared now that we have Youtube and video recorders?

Exactly.

 

[UNMorBUST]

It's true. But my argument was that Christians follow the bible. But only believe certain parts of it that they choose to, and ignore other parts. That's hypocrisy, and I'm not a fan of it. However, some people can deal with it. Whatever gets you through the day I suppose.

No person is perfect. No individual person can follow the teachings in the Bible verbatim. In all of history there had only been one man, and that was Jesus. If everyone followed the teachings in the Bible there would be no need for forgivence.

Now i understand that is not what you meant by people following the Bible. The issue with the Bible is that is to vague and open-ended that people and groups of people interpret it vastly different. To say it is hypocrisy is a bit harsh unless you yourself know the meanings of passages. Knowing you are not a Bible scholar i can safely say your knowledge ( No offense intended) of the scripture is less then many who your criticizing.

Let us say you were reading the New York Times ( we can all agree it is at least a somewhat credible news papaer). It had two articles in it: 1) "Scientist confirm that drinking milk can be good for bone health." 2) " Research has shown that employers have no interest in whether you show up to work intoxicated or not."
You choose to believe in article 1 but not article 2. Does that make you a hypocrite?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/50557/odd_and_unusual_laws_still_on_record.html?cat=17

• North Carolina
Singing off key in public is strictly banned by state law.

So if you sing in public in NC off key you are a hypocrite? (That is if you follow laws of course).

* Disclaimer I am an Atheist.

 

[ChemistWiz]

No person is perfect. No individual person can follow the teachings in the Bible verbatim. In all of history there had only been one man, and that was Jesus. If everyone followed the teachings in the Bible there would be no need for forgivence.

Now i understand that is not what you meant by people following the Bible. The issue with the Bible is that is to vague and open-ended that people and groups of people interpret it vastly different. To say it is hypocrisy is a bit harsh unless you yourself know the meanings of passages. Knowing you are not a Bible scholar i can safely say your knowledge ( No offense intended) of the scripture is less then many who your criticizing.

Let us say you were reading the New York Times ( we can all agree it is at least a somewhat credible news papaer). It had two articles in it: 1) "Scientist confirm that drinking milk can be good for bone health." 2) " Research has shown that employers have no interest in whether you show up to work intoxicated or not."
You choose to believe in article 1 but not article 2. Does that make you a hypocrite?

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/50557/odd_and_unusual_laws_still_on_record.html?cat=17

So if you sing in public in NC off key you are a hypocrite? (That is if you follow laws of course).

* Disclaimer I am an Atheist.

Touché. For the article If I chose to believe in one over the other it would be because one had more evidence for it then the other. The Bible is a Vague book of stories that teach us morals. You said so yourself. Because of this it has a lack of evidence for me to believe it. God said this is right and this is wrong. But Aristotle and Plato had a list of morals similar to that and they knew nothing Of God. God also said its okay to stone your wife, and homosexuals. But it's bad to kill. So if you argued that times changed, that's fine. But then you are saying the Bible simply points out Human morals. That will never change, but other things do and those are the things that are often ignored in the bible, that have about as much proof for them as something else we do believe.

For the law comment, Laws have a certain level of importance.Some are very valuable, and some are part of a History. Look at Marijuana Illegalization, it has no need to be illegalized if you look at its history it was illegailized because of a Businessman. The law against singing. How old is that? It may have been written in a time where a hated group sang off key, or they loved singing so much. And no one has enforced said law in decades or more, but it remains because people forget about it and it's always been there. The UK has a law that all Kings and Queens must be Protestant, yet Religion in Europe is relatively unimportant now. The question isn't if it is hypocritical. it is if the law remains but no one cares about it Is it a law?

 

[owlegrad]

Religion is a farce created by powerful people to control the weak-minded people who require something "bigger than themselves" to contribute to a society.

Simple as that...

Ever wonder why Jesus/God/whatever so conveniently has disappeared now that we have Youtube and video recorders?

Exactly.

That's a pretty strong belief you have. Do you think the Pope (for instance) only cares about controlling the masses?