What's a competitive cardiology fellowship applicant?

[JohnHt]

Hi guys

I am a medical student (MS1) in the Northeast interested in cardiology. I am wondering though, what credentials make a competitive applicant for cardio fellowship program?

I mean, is research experience something you need to have? some publication maybe?
Do most applicants have alpha omega alpha? Amazing grade?

I also heard that a good internal medicine program will also help in getting a cardio fellowship. Is it hard and fast rule that the internal medicine residency that you're coming from must be a university program instead of community one?

What other credentials that makes a successful applicants to cardiology fellowship?

Thanks!

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[cardiolipin]

1. Aim for AOA if possible - this will help you get to number 2.
2. Go to a well known/prominent residency program.
3. Get good evals and letters from said residency program.
4. Do cool research that you can talk about at said residency program - you don't need to publish necessarily.
5. Be nice.

 

[sezratd]

How about boards scores? What's the average scores for those who got acceptance?

 

[dragonfly99]

A significant number of cards fellowships don't even want you to submit board scores and so they must not care about them. Other programs do want them and do care about them. Ideally you'd like at least average USMLE scores, and if you can get above average, like 230s, 240's or more, that's gravy. Remember, this is still an IM fellowship - you're not talking about people applying to plastics or derm so there aren't that many people who got 260 on the USMLE I don't think. If you're thinking of applying to Harvard and UCSF, that's probably a different ball of wax.

 

[JohnHt]

Thanks for the answers guys! however, I thought that Cardiology is the most competitive IM subspecialty, therefore the board scores are pretty high?

 

[dragonfly99]

Yes, I think that if you took the average cards applicant, he/she has higher board scores than the average rheumatologic or endocrine applicant. It is true that some cards fellowships do look at board scores and presumably if they look @them then they are using them to screen applicants. However, I'd say there were maybe 50% or so that didn't even want my board scores.

I think high board scores tend to correlate with other things that would make a competitive applicant (particulary with being from a more academic university IM program, being from a US allopathic school, probably also having more publications and better LOR's).

Having higher USMLE scores could definitely help at getting into cards, but not having high ones is unlikely to be a deal breaker as far as getting in nowhere versus getting in somewhere.

 

[Ash MD]

Who's a good candidate? Anyone that applies and gets an interview!

Go for it...apply to as many places as you can...there's a place for almost everyone.

 

[C Chance]

Questions from a soon to be intern's perspective:

1. What is the timetable to apply for a fellowship? (When are most apps submitted? When are the interviews? When is the match?)

2. Research - I did none in med school, there is no allotted time in intern year, SO... when does one get time to do any and is this lack of or possibly little research a dealbreaker for applying to fellowship?

 

[NYMD516]

Questions from a soon to be intern's perspective:

1. What is the timetable to apply for a fellowship? (When are most apps submitted? When are the interviews? When is the match?)

I too am wondering when traditional(no time between residency and fellowship) applicants apply.

 

[joejabjab]

Apply during PGY-2 year.

-ERAS opens July 2010
-Applications can be uploaded Nov 15? 2010
-Applications can be sent out starting Dec 1, 2010
-Some application deadlines Dec 15, 2010 (few)
-Most are open through the new year
-Interviews any time until April/May 2011
-Match list due June 2011
-Match day mid-June 2011

 

[C Chance]

Apply during PGY-2 year.

-ERAS opens July 2010
-Applications can be uploaded Nov 15? 2010
-Applications can be sent out starting Dec 1, 2010
-Some application deadlines Dec 15, 2010 (few)
-Most are open through the new year
-Interviews any time until April/May 2011
-Match list due June 2011
-Match day mid-June 2011

So that basically gives someone 6 months to start a project, during which maybe one or two months are available to do research? Plus getting letters of rec? - That sounds impossible. I guess the better option is to apply during third year.

 

[drdavemd]

C Chance: Just because you don't have alotted time doesn't mean you can't do research. You may have to find the time in evenings and weekends. That is one of the reasons why people look for you to do research. If you are committed to doing work beyond your 8 to 5 ward rounding duties, then you might be a suitable candidate for fellowship. Believe me that other people are using that strategy to get ahead, so that's where the bar is set.

NYMD516: Typically people apply during their second year, match at the end of 2nd yr and go to their fellowship one year later.

The Match website that you used for residency has all the same info for the Cards match if you want to read more.

 

[dragonfly99]

Depending on your residency, there may or may not be time to do research. Having time available to do research (such as having elective or research months during intern year and early in 2nd year) and/or having an easier schedule (like night floats instead of Q3 or Q4 30 hour shifts and 10 or 11 ward months during intern year) may be something you want to look for in an IM program. Of course it is more important what the overall reputation of your residency program is, but sometimes getting worked to the bone clinically doesn't yield the positive outcome you would think it would have in terms of applying to fellowship.

 

[abcabc1]

Thanks for the answers guys! however, I thought that Cardiology is the most competitive IM subspecialty, therefore the board scores are pretty high?

Keep in mind, USMLE scores can have a VERY significant indirect affect on your chances of getting into Cardiology. If your USMLE Step 1 scores are low, or if you have to take the test > 1 time, it is that much harder for you to get into a strong IM program and the very strong programs are eliminated off the bat. Attending an average (at best) IM program doesn't make it impossible for you to become a Cardiologist, but it makes it much harder for you than for someone at a major IM program.

 

[halodoctor]

.

 

[horhay1241]

Does cards research done and published in med school "count" for much towards fellowship matching, or do they really only care about research done during residency?

 

[bluenebula83]

I'm not a fellow but I've heard that doing research anytime during your 'academic career' is a good thing. It shows you are interested in not only joining the field, but advancing it in the future.

 

[indiamacbean]

I think it helps to show active research (what you are doing in residency) as well as publications which can be prior to residency. Even if you haven't published anything be prepared to talk about what you are currently doing research wise and how this connects to where you want to be going for your career. This was my situation and I got into what people around here think of as on the big cards programs without any publications in residency.

 

[ROBINHO]

Does Abstracts,cardiology related help?
or only papers are relevant?

 

[bluenebula83]

Does Abstracts,cardiology related help?
or only papers are relevant?

Good question. ::bump::
Any takers?

 

[Crazy Diamond]

Good question. ::bump::
Any takers?

so the answer is absolutely yes it does show academic potential the more important I think is, if were the first author how did you contribute and how are you are able to talk about your research.
our problem is that we tend to generalize and look at all cardiology programs as a single conglomerate which has the same expectations , truth of the matter is that there is big difference between the academic medical centers where most of the applicants are PhD holders and smaller programs which in my opinion has more emphasis on clinical training and usually take internal candidates anyway.
I don't know to what extent unpublished research experience counts ?

 

[ProgCoordinator]

so the answer is absolutely yes it does show academic potential the more important I think is, if were the first author how did you contribute and how are you are able to talk about your research.
our problem is that we tend to generalize and look at all cardiology programs as a single conglomerate which has the same expectations , truth of the matter is that there is big difference between the academic medical centers where most of the applicants are PhD holders and smaller programs which in my opinion has more emphasis on clinical training and usually take internal candidates anyway.
I don't know to what extent unpublished research experience counts ?

True that! Unpublished research experience will count for something, as well. Please don't sell yourselves short. We've seen wonderful candidates who short themselves when listing their research experience and then look far less competitive than they are in reality.

 

[Tius]

I'm in the boat of applying for fellowship this year, so anyone with more experience or who has already gone through it, please chime it. To me, i feel there are 3 huge things to have, and then everything else is minor stuff that will help

Major
- did you publish or not; probably everybody who ends up applying has some form of research. publishing distinguishes you from the rest
- who you know, and can they make a phone call for you or write you a great letter? if dr. hursts backs you up and says you're the top 1% of residents he's ever worked with, you're probably set for life as far as cardiology.
- where you went for residency; unfortunately, in the field of internal medicine, just like how who you know plays a huge role, I feel the name and prestige of where you went to residency is a huge factor also, at least locally, if not nationally

Minor
- step scores, if the programs ask for it, they probably will weight it in to their decision; however, like many have said before, if you go to a great residency that's competitive to get in, chances are your steps aren't half bad
- case reports, abstracts, presenting at conferences; these all help, but i don't feel they will win the programs over just based on this

 

[Bonza Debogian]

Being listed on a published study is not as important as many posters above have stressed. It is pretty clear when a resident/medical student/applicant somehow got their name on a paper but doesn't really know what they are talking about. What is just as impressive, I think and I've been told, is actually initiating and performing a study, even if you just get an abstract or a presentation out of it. It takes an awful long time to develop a study, get it approved by the IRB, recruit patients/collect data, analyze the data, then write the paper/abstract. If you work on a project for 6 months then all of a sudden have a published credit it is kind of clear you did little more than get coffee for the people that did the real work.

I don't have any significant "publications" but do have a bunch of abstracts, conference presentations, and have actually done real research, and I got interviews at almost every top program I applied to, and matched at my 2nd choice. I'd focus on working hard in residency, getting to know a bunch of attendings who can write you good letters, then hooking up with a strong mentor who can help you get a small project together. Then be prepared to be able to talk about your project like you are an expert in the field.

 

[joejabjab]

Bonza,

Where in your application did you describe your role in each research project? Did you explain your role in the research description portion of the "experience" section of the general application?

Thanks
Joejabjab

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree that publications are very important. More important than they should be, IMHO. I think it is partly because it shows interest in cardiology, but also because programs all want to recruit people who they think will do research (and sometimes become future faculty) and also because programs don't have good ways of knowing who is good clinically and who is not. They assume all are relatively equal clinically (if they make it to the interview), which I don't think is true. Some people just like taking care of patients more, just work harder, or just went to residency programs that worked them harder and had more ICU patients, etc. Unfortunately I think it is hard for programs to measure that, or they just don't care. Your co-fellows certainly will...

Of course if you obviously don't know anything when you get pimped about your supposed research, you'll look dumb, but I honestly think most of the "coffee fetcher"/minor data crunchers are good enough at faking it that getting their name on the publication is going to help them significantly, particularly if the publication is in a decent journal. I'm just cynical that way, though.

 

[RySerr21]

Keep in mind, USMLE scores can have a VERY significant indirect affect on your chances of getting into Cardiology. If your USMLE Step 1 scores are low, or if you have to take the test > 1 time, it is that much harder for you to get into a strong IM program and the very strong programs are eliminated off the bat. Attending an average (at best) IM program doesn't make it impossible for you to become a Cardiologist, but it makes it much harder for you than for someone at a major IM program.

what determines a strong from good form average IM program? Where do you learn about this information? Im interested in stayin in cali...