What would a "medicare-for-all" system look like?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Medical premiums is set to surpass the household income in 11 years. Probably only the top 1% and the kings would be able to afford the medical insurance. I hope I live that long to see how things pan out. Those who ridicule Bernie are going to regret it and pay dearly. Unfortunately we don’t think into future beyond one day.
www.zdnet.com

Cost of health insurance will surpass income by 2033

Though it could be as late as 2037 with the Affordable Care Act. A new study shows that the average annual increase in insurance premiums was 8.0% while household incomes rose an average of 2.1%.
www.zdnet.com www.zdnet.com
Members don't see this ad.
 
You’re ready discovered, troll. The world just isn’t all meant to be perfect, like Venezuela.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Could work if they turned down the 86 yo that wants dialysis and several major operations that have a 3% chance of working.
But it won’t. Because that guys compatriots vote. Children that need vaccines don’t vote or have parents that don’t believe in vaccines that vote for them. So we’d have a medical system set up for the biggest *****...which is wja we have now. And we all make a TON off it even though we know it’s stupid. But we just deliver what the average ***** wants. So the problem is our economic benefit is actually aligned with giving dumb people what they want. Medicare for all just pushes that further...let’s do it!
I could see a solution but people won’t vote for it. People would rather vote to give me money and have no better outcomes...so if I can’t convince them otherwise why. It just take the money and say “thanks!”...
 
Members don't see this ad :)
People don’t want to pay for people who aren’t going to take care of themselves, or won’t get better.

So you basically have a list of people “not worthy of care” or you pay for a lot of people who aren’t going to get better, many vegetative, and it’s a huge money sink.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
VA Hopeful Dr said:
No, because cost isn't the only thing that matters.

Mexico has much cheaper healthcare than we do, but I don't know many people clamoring to go there for treatment.
Click to expand...

Actually medical tourism to Mexico from the US is substantial and growing.
 
LoveAll said:
$6000 bill for fours of stay in Emergency Room in USA. It costs just $4000 in UK for one year worth of comprehensive coverage. But we should not complain, just shut up and pay. Because we get to live in the only capitalist country in the world and have the best healthcare in the world.

A healthcare provider could not afford health insurance , not some lazy free loader.
I'm A Health Care Provider Without Commercial Health Insurance. Here's My Story.
Click to expand...
How exactly is America capitalist? That’s what I have yet to figure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
LoveAll said:
$6000 bill for fours of stay in Emergency Room in USA. It costs just $4000 in UK for one year worth of comprehensive coverage. But we should not complain, just shut up and pay. Because we get to live in the only capitalist country in the world and have the best healthcare in the world.

A healthcare provider could not afford health insurance , not some lazy free loader.
I'm A Health Care Provider Without Commercial Health Insurance. Here's My Story.
Click to expand...
That story is crap. An NP job should easily pay around $100k. This person says they went locums in order to make even more money. With IBR and $100k in income you can absolutely buy insurance and pay student loans. It’s literally a lie to say it cannot be done.

Secondly, she is misrepresenting those cost share ministries and that story. First, no hospital expects to get the full bill from a cash payer. Hospital in my home town all you have to do is call and remind them you as cash pay and the price drops 50%. I was also on one of those price share ministry plans with family and covered stuff does get repaid. Yes it takes a few months but I have many friends on it too and personally know of over $100k worth of cost share that got covered.

That story is a sham. The author is misleading
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
When I pay cash it ends up being even less than 50%

I’ve had 400$ bills magically become 50 or less. It’s a game, and it amazes me that people don’t see past it.
 
BeautifulSmiles523 said:
How exactly is America capitalist? That’s what I have yet to figure.
Click to expand...
It was meant to be a sarcasm, but seems like I failed. What I meant was, if someone like Bernie proposes that the government has to get involved and contain the cost of healthcare , 60-70% of the population get paranoid and shout that it is socialism, communism etc. In most of the countries around the world, UK, Canada, Australia, Scandinavian countries etc, the government takes charge of the healthcare and provide the population affordable healthcare. They are as free world and capitalist as we are. They don’t think their government involvement as socialism or communism etc. they don’t fear that their government is going to jail them, take away their liberty , confiscate their home etc.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
BeautifulSmiles523 said:
When I pay cash it ends up being even less than 50%

I’ve had 400$ bills magically become 50 or less. It’s a game, and it amazes me that people don’t see past it.
Click to expand...
Someone comes to ER, and it is ok for the hospital to play game with them?
 
I’m talking about the game that the government and insurance companies play together.

I’ve worked in ERs and haven’t seen hospital staff playing games, it’s the insurance companies and government that play the games.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
LoveAll said:
60% of bankruptcies caused by medical bills.
www.huffpost.com

Life And Debt: Stories From Inside America's GoFundMe Health Care System

Outrageous health care costs and a merciless system are forcing Americans to raise money from strangers, revealing the ugly truths about U.S. health care.
www.huffpost.com www.huffpost.com
Click to expand...
LoveAll said:
I am baffled how our politicians still haven’t enacted laws to prevent adding medical bills to bankruptcies, like college tuition loans? Healthcare companies and hospitals not offered enough bribe like the banks?
www.snopes.com

Do 643,000 Bankruptcies Occur in the U.S. Every Year Due to Medical Bills?

A popular meme held that 643,000 personal bankruptcies occurred in the U.S. due to medical bills, but the underlying math was elusive.
www.snopes.com www.snopes.com
Click to expand...
LoveAll said:
And 0% medical bankruptcies in other countries even though they spend only one third .
Click to expand...

You could of combined all these posts into one post...fishing for responses by adding more troll bait? Anyways, I'll bite.

Anyhow, you are free to open a nonprofit clinic to help those in need, and or you can work as a physician in one. Some dentists/doctors I know actually give up a few weeks to just do charity cases. You could do that to. The world will never be fair- but they are doing their best to help out the less fortunate. I even hold dental clinic days where we work in the community for free. So what are YOU doing that helps out the community?
 
Rainee said:
I get what you are saying- and what you are saying is noble...but it makes zero sense if theres a recession which you are banking on. It would literally send us into a great depression. I mean you are talking in hypotheticals...and I am to. If anything- universal healthcare should be implemented when the economy is strong...not when its weak- which you are proposing.

I personally love debating economics and stock market, and policies like that. So I guess I'm shifting the topic towards more of an economic topic. So I guess the question is how economically do we make this work when in recessions- you need to jump start things...not tax more in order to create more social programs....?
Click to expand...
Reason why you set regulations on corporations and Wall Street, and let regular people control the economy(embedded liberalism, unionism). That's how you build a growing economy like the U.S. had post-WW2 until Carter and Reagan came along with their neoliberalism. Look at Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway: strong unions, strong labor laws and regulations on corporate capitalism. Which something that American corporations dislike, Walmart's failure in Germany is good example.

You know about sales tax? Paying 6-7-8-9% per dollar.

How about adding some kind of sales tax on Wall Street? They don't pay any kind of tax when they buy millions and millions dollars worth of stocks. Nevermind 7-8% "sales tax," if you add just one-half of 1% of a tax, it'll produce $300 billion per year. With that $300 billion, you can do a lot of things with that: rebuild public works, fund a national healthcare service, create many jobs that won't be outsource.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Gyuji said:
Reason why you set regulations on corporations and Wall Street, and let regular people control the economy(embedded liberalism, unionism). That's how you build a growing economy like the U.S. had post-WW2 until Carter and Reagan came along with their neoliberalism. Look at Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway: strong unions, strong labor laws and regulations on corporate capitalism. Which something that American corporations dislike, Walmart's failure in Germany is good example.

You know about sales tax? Paying 6-7-8-9% per dollar.

How about adding some kind of sales tax on Wall Street? They don't pay any kind of tax when they buy millions and millions dollars worth of stocks. Nevermind 7-8% "sales tax," if you add just one-half of 1% of a tax, it'll produce $300 billion per year. With that $300 billion, you can do a lot of things with that: rebuild public works, fund a national healthcare service, create many jobs that won't be outsource.
Click to expand...
But why is that money “yours” to take?
 
sb247 said:
But why is that money “yours” to take?
Click to expand...

Why isn't it 'yours' ('you' meaning the government)? Any accumulation of financial wealth is totally dependent on social institutions and the legal infrastructure provided by the government. You can't make a dime without the government printing/guaranteeing the money and overseeing the economic institutions and legal/judicial framework that adjudicates disputes and prevents people from just taking what they want from others. If you want to live on an island with no government, no taxes, no laws, and no social network, go ahead. But there will be no money there to argue over.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
tr said:
Why isn't it 'yours' ('you' meaning the government)? Any accumulation of financial wealth is totally dependent on social institutions and the legal infrastructure provided by the government. You can't make a dime without the government printing/guaranteeing the money and overseeing the economic institutions and legal/judicial framework that adjudicates disputes and prevents people from just taking what they want from others. If you want to live on an island with no government, no taxes, no laws, and no social network, go ahead. But there will be no money there to argue over.
Click to expand...
Ah, so I should thank the benevolent govt for any fraction they generously allow me to keep?

Screw that noise
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I see both sides of the story, but the fact is that owning the rights to someone's labor and schooling just doesn't make sense. Yes we are all taxpayers into the system and the system keeps society in tact. But having a right to someone's labor for your healthcare makes no sense.

If there is no doctors, then how can that right be fulfilled? You can still fulfill your right to pursuit of happiness, freedom of speech whatever...by being YOU, by being born into this world. But if there was no such thing as a doctor, then how would you have a right to healthcare? You would probably just be praying and chanting into the wilderness for things to heal- and it wouldn't- and you would probably die from Polio or something.

That's what I don't get. But alas, people think that free schooling, free healthcare should be a right because we are the richest country on the planet. I guess we own the rights to teachers labor to teach us for free. And guess what? Schooling also has a two payer system. Private and public schools. Should we just outlaw all private schools and make them public because it's not fair that the public system is failing? Should Stanford become free and accept everyone? So anyways, it's a convoluted topic and it is what it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
sb247 said:
Ah, so I should thank the benevolent govt for any fraction they generously allow me to keep?
Click to expand...

You should thank them for the legal structures that support your ability to live and work in a modern society with money and voting and stuff, rather than somewhere where your caveman neighbors are waiting to bash in your head and cannibalize your brains or the local chieftain is keeping you for slave labor and cutting your hand off for stealing food.

BTW they need money to keep it up.
 
tr said:
You should thank them for the legal structures that support your ability to live and work in a modern society with money and voting and stuff, rather than somewhere where your caveman neighbors are waiting to bash in your head and cannibalize your brains or the local chieftain is keeping you for slave labor and cutting your hand off for stealing food.

BTW they need money to keep it up.
Click to expand...
That’s a pretty big false choice fallacy there, we can definitely have a govt without an income tax or a universal healthcare system

You can do better at structuring an argument
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Rainee said:
I see both sides of the story, but the fact is that owning the rights to someone's labor and schooling just doesn't make sense. Yes we are all taxpayers into the system and the system keeps society in tact. But having a right to someone's labor for your healthcare makes no sense.

If there is no doctors, then how can that right be fulfilled? You can still fulfill your right to pursuit of happiness, freedom of speech whatever...by being YOU, by being born into this world. But if there was no such thing as a doctor, then how would you have a right to healthcare? You would probably just be praying and chanting into the wilderness for things to heal- and it wouldn't- and you would probably die from Polio or something.

That's what I don't get. But alas, people think that free schooling, free healthcare should be a right because we are the richest country on the planet. I guess we own the rights to teachers labor to teach us for free. And guess what? Schooling also has a two payer system. Private and public schools. Should we just outlaw all private schools and make them public because it's not fair that the public system is failing? Should Stanford become free and accept everyone? So anyways, it's a convoluted topic and it is what it is.
Click to expand...
That's socialism for ya. Meaning "means of production." Putting our resources to something: police, firefighters, public education, roads, etc.

In the healthcare market, the prices has gone ridiculously high for the working and middle-class including the premiums for health insurance with questionable practices: death panels and crappy coverage. So, the People wants put to their resources into the healthcare market. They can do so since we're a capitalistic society, right? That's capitalism for ya!

You have to pay attention to the Democratic primary. Medicare-4-All is pretty much the focal point of the debate, and corporate Democrats, DNC, and their donors knows this and know they can't win the primary without M4A being involved in the conversation. Pretty much 2020 is going to be Medicare-4-All and as well with other policies.
 
sb247 said:
That’s a pretty big false choice fallacy there, we can definitely have a govt without an income tax or a universal healthcare system

You can do better at structuring an argument
Click to expand...
Libertarianism is a fallacy. All it does is promote corporatism(corporate socialism and corporate capitalism), government corruption, monopolization, and unresponsive action from officials. All this ends with utter chaos to a society bringing to a revolt from the People.

Just give it up with the Swansonism and pure-libertarianism. No one is going to vote for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Gyuji said:
Libertarianism is a fallacy. All it does is promote corporatism(corporate socialism and corporate capitalism), government corruption, monopolization, and unresponsive action from officials. All this ends with utter chaos to a society bringing to a revolt from the People.

Just give it up with the Swansonism and pure-libertarianism. No one is going to vote for it.
Click to expand...
Libertarianism doesn’t promote “corporate socialism”. What are you on?
 
sb247 said:
Libertarianism doesn’t promote “corporate socialism”. What are you on?
Click to expand...
But it's prone to it. In your ideal world, you're giving corporations all the power. Free-market economics( in other word, outsourcing), unregulated corporate capitalism (eliminating competition) and rigging the market while price-gouging society by giving inferior goods(unregulated). You want to eat half-spoiled meat and produce and paying for it?

Doing so, corporations with their profits are going to influence government to favor them. Especially when people are going to revolt.
 
Gyuji said:
But it's prone to it. In your ideal world, you're giving corporations all the power. Free-market economics( in other word, outsourcing), unregulated corporate capitalism (eliminating competition) and rigging the market while price-gouging society by giving inferior goods(unregulated). You want to eat half-spoiled meat and produce and paying for it?

Doing so, corporations with their profits are going to influence government to favor them. Especially when people are going to revolt.
Click to expand...
The point of libertarianism is a minimalist govt that cannot be weilded as a weapon, you are just making stuff up

And the free market does mean more competition in almost every case
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
sb247 said:
That’s a pretty big false choice fallacy there, we can definitely have a govt without an income tax or a universal healthcare system

You can do better at structuring an argument
Click to expand...

Of course you can have govt without income tax, but you would have to have some other type of tax to fund it. You can't run the govt on nothing. Even a minimalist libertarian govt would still need some funding, although obviously less than one that provided broader supports for citizen well-being.

Universal access to health care is obviously optional, but a majority of Americans (including 53% of Republicans) support it.

www.pewresearch.org

60% in US say health care coverage is government’s responsibility

The share of Americans saying health care coverage is a government responsibility remains at its highest level in a decade.
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org

Look, my post was in response to your saying the govt has no right to tax anybody. Right or no right, without funding for any governmental functions we would be back to anarchy and might-makes-right, and money is useless under those conditions.
 
Last edited:
tr said:
Universal access to health care is obviously optional, but a majority of Americans (including 53% of Republicans) support it.

www.pewresearch.org

60% in US say health care coverage is government’s responsibility

The share of Americans saying health care coverage is a government responsibility remains at its highest level in a decade.
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org
Click to expand...
That's true but with a huge asterisk.

www.kff.org

Public Opinion on Single-Payer, National Health Plans, and Expanding Access to Medicare Coverage | KFF

For many years, Kaiser Family Foundation has been tracking public opinion on the idea of a national health plan (including language referring to Medicare-for-all since 2017). Historically, our polls have shown support for the federal government doing more to help provide health insurance for...
www.kff.org www.kff.org

It's no longer majority supported if:
-taxes go up
-private insurance goes away
-increased wait times for tests/procedures

Figure 11 in my link.

Since it's almost impossible that none of those things will happen, it no longer has the support of the majority.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
tr said:
Of course you can have govt without income tax, but you would have to have some other type of tax to fund it. You can't run the govt on nothing. Even a minimalist libertarian govt would still need some funding, although obviously less than one that provided broader supports for citizen well-being.

Universal access to health care is obviously optional, but a majority of Americans (including 53% of Republicans) support it.

www.pewresearch.org

60% in US say health care coverage is government’s responsibility

The share of Americans saying health care coverage is a government responsibility remains at its highest level in a decade.
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org

Look, my post was in response to your saying the govt has no right to tax anybody. Right or no right, without funding for any governmental functions we would be back to anarchy and might-makes-right, and money is useless under those conditions.
Click to expand...
It’s not even close to a majority when you actually mention what it would take to make it happen, you’re being dishonest

And even if it was 80%, and it’s not....it doesn’t matter if requires all that theft to make it happen
 
sb247 said:
It’s not even close to a majority when you actually mention what it would take to make it happen, you’re being dishonest

And even if it was 80%, and it’s not....it doesn’t matter if requires all that theft to make it happen
Click to expand...
How much MORE THAN WHAT WE PAY NOW, will it take? Can you be specific? The gullible people are confused because people like you lie left and right as if only the Medicare-for-all will cost money and the private insurance is FREE. Look at this article, people are paying ten times for insulin here compared to Canada. I don’t know how anyone in the right frame of mind would defend this kind of stupidity. Are you totally blind?
 
LoveAll said:
How much MORE THAN WHAT WE PAY NOW, will it take? Can you be specific? The gullible people are confused because people like you lie left and right as if only the Medicare-for-all will cost money and the private insurance is FREE. Look at this article, people are paying ten times for insulin here compared to Canada. I don’t know how anyone in the right frame of mind would defend this kind of stupidity. Are you totally blind?
Click to expand...
Nice try troll
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Rainee said:
I see both sides of the story, but the fact is that owning the rights to someone's labor and schooling just doesn't make sense. Yes we are all taxpayers into the system and the system keeps society in tact. But having a right to someone's labor for your healthcare makes no sense.

If there is no doctors, then how can that right be fulfilled? You can still fulfill your right to pursuit of happiness, freedom of speech whatever...by being YOU, by being born into this world. But if there was no such thing as a doctor, then how would you have a right to healthcare? You would probably just be praying and chanting into the wilderness for things to heal- and it wouldn't- and you would probably die from Polio or something.

That's what I don't get. But alas, people think that free schooling, free healthcare should be a right because we are the richest country on the planet. I guess we own the rights to teachers labor to teach us for free. And guess what? Schooling also has a two payer system. Private and public schools. Should we just outlaw all private schools and make them public because it's not fair that the public system is failing? Should Stanford become free and accept everyone? So anyways, it's a convoluted topic and it is what it is.
Click to expand...
We have gone through this. You keep ignoring what others have to say and keep on repeating same lies/republican talk points. Nothing is free and no one is asking for free healthcare . Just tax the people as much as other countries do and provide the similar care, do not let private vultures to rob the vulnerable innocents. One such theft you repeatedly defend is here.
 
LoveAll said:
First answer the question then you can call me troll. Just because I don’t subscribe to your lies, I don’t become a troll. That way, you are a troll to me too.
Click to expand...
No you're a troll because you refuse to listen and think. You come in here spouting your nonsense and when it's proven to be nonsense you ignore that then come back in a week or two and start the cycle all over again.

I've tried in good-faith to engage you for the past several months and have gotten absolutely nothing for it other than your continued nonsense with no evidence that you're even trying to understand the points that the rest of us are making. That is what makes you a troll.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
VA Hopeful Dr said:
No you're a troll because you refuse to listen and think. You come in here spouting your nonsense and when it's proven to be nonsense you ignore that then come back in a week or two and start the cycle all over again.

I've tried in good-faith to engage you for the past several months and have gotten absolutely nothing for it other than your continued nonsense with no evidence that you're even trying to understand the points that the rest of us are making. That is what makes you a troll.
Click to expand...
You never listen to anything I say even though the rest of the world agree with what I say. So by your definition, you are the troll. You continue to say paying three times premiums than other countries and paying ten times for the same drug than the neighboring country, is somehow superior. That is what you call non sense and stupid. I have given more proof than you but you continue to ignore them because you don’t have any answers.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 user
They don't have any answers. Just the same "let's go back to pre-ACA" argument.
 
LoveAll said:
You never listen to anything I say even though the rest of the world agree with what I say. So by your definition, you are the troll. You continue to say paying three times premiums than other countries and paying ten times for the same drug than the neighboring country, is somehow superior. That is what you call non sense and stupid. I have given more proof than you but you continue to ignore them because you don’t have any answers.
Click to expand...
I have said nothing of the sort. Prove otherwise since I haven't deleted any posts in this thread.

As to your most recent idiocy, I have several times explained how one can find cheap insulin. Not sure how it keeps escaping you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
LoveAll said:
You never listen to anything I say even though the rest of the world agree with what I say. So by your definition, you are the troll. You continue to say paying three times premiums than other countries and paying ten times for the same drug than the neighboring country, is somehow superior. That is what you call non sense and stupid. I have given more proof than you but you continue to ignore them because you don’t have any answers.
Click to expand...
If all the world agrees it must be why you have so many likes on your posts. Go move to Europe if you want socialized healthcare. We won’t miss you
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
LoveAll said:
Medical premiums is set to surpass the household income in 11 years. Probably only the top 1% and the kings would be able to afford the medical insurance. I hope I live that long to see how things pan out. Those who ridicule Bernie are going to regret it and pay dearly. Unfortunately we don’t think into future beyond one day.
www.zdnet.com

Cost of health insurance will surpass income by 2033

Though it could be as late as 2037 with the Affordable Care Act. A new study shows that the average annual increase in insurance premiums was 8.0% while household incomes rose an average of 2.1%.
www.zdnet.com www.zdnet.com
Click to expand...
Then we can finally go to cash like everything else and have a more free market than slobama forcing us to buy stupid expensive healthcare plans
 
A lot of British dentists went to cash fee for service after universal dental care was introduced. If you go on their websites you will see cash prices and happy dentists that don’t deal with insurance.

Lots of dentists don’t take the universal gov coverage because it pays to little to cover the cost.

It has resulted in a huge disparity of dental care shortage ironically. So I guess if Medicare for all comes along it would introduce a cash free market and would actually do good for some professions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

vm26
AMA medicare reform
Replies
6
Views
1K
vm26
vm26
wimby2016
Medicare for all and physician salaries
4 5 6 7 8
Replies
390
Views
51K
Antynamikal
A
9
  • Locked
  • Poll
Survey of intergenerational opinions on socialized medicine/single payer/'medicare for all'
2 3 4
Replies
151
Views
9K
gyngyn
gyngyn
Fried Plantaris
What would be the impact on physicians if Obamacare is repealed?
Replies
14
Views
4K
DrSpine
D
P
What does the future of medicine look like?
Replies
13
Views
3K
SurfingDoctor
SurfingDoctor
Top