What to Look for in Undergrad

[RunningStudent]

I'm a high school junior, and I'm trying to decide which colleges I should take a serious look at. I'm interested in general medicine, either as a MD or as a physician assistant. As I'm looking through the schools, what should I look for in regards to a future career in medicine?

(I live near Boston, if anyone happens to have has any suggestions on good schools).

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[Lil Mick]

My list included:
1) Location
2) Cost
3) Good science department
4) Not too specialized (lots of good departments) in case I changed my mind
5) Sports... (insert other interests)
6) Opportunities to do service work

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

I'm a high school junior, and I'm trying to decide which colleges I should take a serious look at. I'm interested in general medicine, either as a MD or as a physician assistant. As I'm looking through the schools, what should I look for in regards to a future career in medicine?

(I live near Boston, if anyone happens to have has any suggestions on good schools).

If you want to go to medical school you should first look at the 50th and 75th percentile SAT scores at any college. If your SATs aren't in the top 25% of matriculating students at a college, don't go there. You don't want a fair fight. You want to pummel the competition.

Then you should look at the course descriptions in the physics department. If the college does not offer a 1 year algebra based physics sequence with a lab, stay away. If you have to take calculus based physics you will also have to take multivariable calculus. This is just stupid. No medical school in the US requires calculus based physics. Why bother with this agony?

You should then try to get an idea of the number of spots in first year chemistry as opposed to organic chemistry. If there aren't many organic spots compared to gen chem spots, you will know that the college uses gen chem as a weed out course. If that is true, stay away.

I would also look at cost, fun and proximity to family.

 

[NickNaylor]

If you want to go to medical school you should first look at the 50th and 75th percentile SAT scores at any college. If your SATs aren't in the top 25% of matriculating students at a college, don't go there. You don't want a fair fight. You want to pummel the competition.

Then you should look at the course descriptions in the physics department. If the college does not offer a 1 year algebra based physics sequence with a lab, stay away. If you have to take calculus based physics you will also have to take multivariable calculus. This is just stupid. No medical school in the US requires calculus based physics. Why bother with this agony?

You should then try to get an idea of the number of spots in first year chemistry as opposed to organic chemistry. If there aren't many organic spots compared to gen chem spots, you will know that the college uses gen chem as a weed out course. If that is true, stay away.

I would also look at cost, fun and proximity to family.

Ignore this guy's advice. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Agree more or less with the above. Important things for me:

1) Cost
2) Location
3) Faculty:student ratio

 

[DrYoda]

I mostly agree with lil mick and nick's advice.

but one thing on cost:

Cost is an important factor when choosing between acceptances, I don't think it's as important when deciding where to apply since finaid may end up making the expensive school into your cheap option. However, be realistic with what kind of finaid you expect to get (eg. don't bank on a full ride if you're an average applicant at the school).

 

[bucks2010]

Ignore this guy's advice. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Agree more or less with the above. Important things for me:

1) Cost
2) Location
3) Faculty:student ratio

Agreed. Cost is should generally be the most important factor IMO. Location, social life, etc. won't matter one bit to you once you graduate, but the debt you take on will stick with you for years.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

1) Cost
2) Reputation in areas of interest
3) Location
4) Linkage programs i.e. BS/DO, BS/MD, early acceptance
5) Placement into alternative careers

Honestly no framework will replace the gut check method. Does it feel right? if not, don't go.

 

[HH Holmes]

I have to agree with everyone on:

1. Cost
2. Location (go to a place where you've always wanted to go! It's college, once in a lifetime experience)
3. Class size

But, if you're into science and pre-med/pre-health also look at:

4. Availability of undergraduate research
5. Non-binding guaranteed acceptance programs (Tulane has one, so do others)
6. Student life... If it doesn't feel right on campus, don't go...

 

[BillySimmons]

Sports Teams Sports Teams Sports Teams

 

[NickNaylor]

Sports Teams Sports Teams Sports Teams

 

[RunningStudent]

Thanks for all of the advice. My list right now includes Elms College, University of Vermont, Holy Cross, UMass Amherst, Boston University, St. Michaels, and a few other colleges. One last quick question: given I'm interested in PA school, does the status of local hospitals matter in regard to H.C.E.? Thanks again for all of the advice.

 

[HH Holmes]

Thanks for all of the advice. My list right now includes Elms College, University of Vermont, Holy Cross, UMass Amherst, Boston University, St. Michaels, and a few other colleges. One last quick question: given I'm interested in PA school, does the status of local hospitals matter in regard to H.C.E.? Thanks again for all of the advice.

I really have no knowledge on any of the schools you're applying to besides UVM (which is very limited, as well), but I know Vermont has excellent undergraduate research opportunities and excellent science programs. If research is something you've done, or are interested in, I'd recommend you visit, talk to some professors and current students and decide if it's the place for you.

 

[RunningStudent]

I really have no knowledge on any of the schools you're applying to besides UVM (which is very limited, as well), but I know Vermont has excellent undergraduate research opportunities and excellent science programs. If research is something you've done, or are interested in, I'd recommend you visit, talk to some professors and current students and decide if it's the place for you.

Do you mean research as a career or as a project in college? I'm still unsure of what type of medicine I want to enter as a career, and I want to keep my options open (PA most likely, but still looking) . UVM is definitely near the top of my choices, though, mostly for the quality of campus life and the strength of science programs (like you said). Thanks again for everyone's help.

 

[HH Holmes]

Do you mean research as a career or as a project in college? I'm still unsure of what type of medicine I want to enter as a career, and I want to keep my options open (PA most likely, but still looking) . UVM is definitely near the top of my choices, though, mostly for the quality of campus life and the strength of science programs (like you said). Thanks again for everyone's help.

Research as a project/extra curricular activity. Doing research on campus with strengthen your CV and will only help for you getting into med/dent/PA school.

 

[Mahliah]

1.hottest guys/girls
2. best frat/soror parties
3. the cafe has to have every major fast food chain
4.open campus, so the locals can party too
5.rich people so you can marry well

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Thanks for all of the advice. My list right now includes Elms College, University of Vermont, Holy Cross, UMass Amherst, Boston University, St. Michaels, and a few other colleges. One last quick question: given I'm interested in PA school, does the status of local hospitals matter in regard to H.C.E.? Thanks again for all of the advice.

This has to be the most random list I have ever seen, I see the New England kick, but figure out if you want: rural/college town, suburbs or city; small, medium or large. Also consider that there are still some AA/BS level PA programs left http://www.mdc.edu/main/bashspa/ Miami Dade College has one which is good because if you already know what you want you save two years. Nova Southeastern University has a dual program, I believe Quinnipiac does as well.

 

[RunningStudent]

This has to be the most random list I have ever seen, I see the New England kick, but figure out if you want: rural/college town, suburbs or city; small, medium or large. Also consider that there are still some AA/BS level PA programs left http://www.mdc.edu/main/bashspa/ Miami Dade College has one which is good because if you already know what you want you save two years. Nova Southeastern University has a dual program, I believe Quinnipiac does as well.

I'm aiming for a suburban New England liberal arts college. I considered BU given the strength of their biology program, but I probably won't apply. I'm aiming for a biology undergrad since I'm still debating between a career in medical biotechnology, a Pharm.D (if there are any careers left with this type of degree), and physician assistant. Your advice helped my search of suburban colleges, so thanks for your help.

 

[FutureDoc01]

Don't worry about SAT. I think it is one of the most stupid exams out there. My roommate my freshman year had a 1450/1600 and didn't last a month. I had much less and graduated with high honors. You need MOTIVATION!

If your motivated, I don't think it matters where you go to school. I personally like the larger universities. I liked going to PITT because I didn't have to deal with anyone knowing me and I could just go to class and even skip when I wanted to.

My sister went to a very very very small liberal arts college. Some of her classes had 15 people in it, with a much lower SAT mean. She is in medical school too and doing just fine.

 

[HH Holmes]

Don't worry about SAT.

Best tip for any high schooler. Everyone i knew stressed over that damn test for so long and lost sight of everything. If you do well in basic math and english... and you can formulate a few paragraphs, that's all you need.

 

[demh23]

I actually think Obnoxious Dad gave some pretty good advice

 

[Gigantron]

I actually think Obnoxious Dad gave some pretty good advice

Case in point, this is why we should keep ignoring it.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

I actually think Obnoxious Dad gave some pretty good advice

My daughter just finished her second year of medical school at a US allopathic medical school. She has never used her calculus or physics in the first two years of med school. All of that agony was absolutely pointless.

For those of you who think that a rigorous science based undergraduate preparation is valued by medical schools, go out to various residency programs and look at the undergraduate majors of some of the current residents. You will see people with majors in accounting, phys ed, dance and politically correct psychobabble. Rarely will you see engineering, chemistry or physics majors. The adcoms simply do not care.

Adcoms just want to know about GPA, MCAT and your stupid extracurricular activities where you bring in cookies for nurses and try to look helpful.

 

[NickNaylor]

My daughter just finished her second year of medical school at a US allopathic medical school. She has never used her calculus or physics in the first two years of med school. All of that agony was absolutely pointless.

For those of you who think that a rigorous science based undergraduate preparation is valued by medical schools, go out to various residency programs and look at the undergraduate majors of some of the current residents. You will see people with majors in accounting, phys ed, dance and politically correct psychobabble. Rarely will you see engineering, chemistry or physics majors. The adcoms simply do not care.

Adcoms just want to know about GPA, MCAT and your stupid extracurricular activities where you bring in cookies for nurses and try to look helpful.

Every single one of your posts spews the same worthless crap based on your own anecdotal experience.

 

[Long Way to Go]

For those of you who think that a rigorous science based undergraduate preparation is valued by medical schools, go out to various residency programs and look at the undergraduate majors of some of the current residents. You will see people with majors in accounting, phys ed, dance and politically correct psychobabble. Rarely will you see engineering, chemistry or physics majors. The adcoms simply do not care.

So you're saying that most of the biology majors (9559), math and science majors (183), and physical science majors (2201) who matriculate to medical school (total matriculants = 18665) don't end up making it to residency, eh?

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

So you're saying that most of the biology majors (9559), math and science majors (183), and physical science majors (2201) who matriculate to medical school (total matriculants = 18665) don't end up making it to residency, eh?

Once you subtract the science and math majors from last fall's matriculants, you are left with 6,722 people who got their degrees in advertising, folk dancing, theology etc. These people probably took about 10 science classes total and never took more than three in any year. Some of them took these classes at community colleges and competed with people who didn't even take the SAT or ACT.

As far as making residency is concerned, historically the attrition rate at US allopathic medical schools is about 5%. I am sure that the rate for math and science majors, especially physical science majors, is lower than 5%.

The problem with majoring in the physical sciences is that the student will take more math and science, will take harder math and science and take more math and science at the same time. This will pummel the GPA and this is especially true at tough colleges. Because the adcoms will not normalize transcripts while evaluating applicants to account for undergraduate rigor, the person who chooses to major in physical sciences at a tough school hurts his/her chances of getting into medical school.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Every single one of your posts spews the same worthless crap based on your own anecdotal experience.

I have cited a ton of data. All you ever do is spew your unrealistic jive at people. Show me any studies, please, that support your contention that majoring in science at a rigorous college improves a student's chances of getting into medical school. Please!

 

[NickNaylor]

I have cited a ton of data. All you ever do is spew your unrealistic jive at people. Show me any studies, please, that support your contention that majoring in science at a rigorous college improves a student's chances of getting into medical school. Please!

All I need to know is that a majority of matriculants are math or science majors. That kinda sends your whole theory to ****.

 

[DrYoda]

I have cited a ton of data.

No, you haven't. A citation would look like this: Over half of MD school matriculants are science majors. https://www.aamc.org/download/161692/data/table18-facts2010mcatgpabymaj1-web.pdf.pdf

 

[HH Holmes]

Back to the thread's actual purpose... OP, I was rummaging through my SAT/ACT/College books to give to some younger friends and found my Fiske Guide to Colleges. Really great book (bought it for under 20 bucks too) for outlining the basics of each institution. I brought it with me on all my college visits and would annotate it after each tour/info session. It won't give you more than 2-4 pages for each school, but it's a good guide.

With regards to the argument above, I won't take a side, but just major in whatever you're interested in, and just be sure to take the basic requirements in your first, second and third year to prepare for the MCAT. If you like biology, then major in that and you'll be well prepared. If you like underwater kenyan basket weaving, then major in that, but be sure to take Bio I & II, Chem I & II, Physics I & II, Organic I & II, Calculus I & II and maybe biochemistry, microbiology and/or genetics for sh*ts and giggles/if the med schools you like require it.

 

[tehdude]

All I need to know is that a majority of matriculants are math or science majors. That kinda sends your whole theory to ****.

No, it doesn't. There are more science matriculants because there are more science applicants. If you look at % accepted by major and MCAT scores by major, you'll see that your major is completely irrelevant. Getting a science degree will not help you get into medical school. In fact, it may actually hinder you. Acceptance is largely a numbers game. All else equal, a 4.0 art major will get in before a 3.5 physics major, so you won't be doing yourself any favors by choosing a more difficult path. And in an interest of increasing diversity, some schools may actually favor an art over science major.

 

[demh23]

Wow you all are so mad because you're taking analytical physics and physical chemistry and killing your GPA? Have fun.. brb, 4.0'ing my algebra based physics

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

Wow you all are so mad because you're taking analytical physics and physical chemistry and killing your GPA? Have fun.. brb, 4.0'ing my algebra based physics

Well done. You have chosen the path of least resistance. Once you are done with your plug and chug physics, you'll need to select some real cush courses that show how sensitive and socially aware that you are. Don't forget to bring the cookies to the operating room.

 

[deleted393595]

In this order:

1. Cost
2. Resources dedicated towards field of study (Bio, Physics, etc.)
3. Ease of living

 

[NickNaylor]

No, it doesn't. There are more science matriculants because there are more science applicants. If you look at % accepted by major and MCAT scores by major, you'll see that your major is completely irrelevant. Getting a science degree will not help you get into medical school. In fact, it may actually hinder you. Acceptance is largely a numbers game. All else equal, a 4.0 art major will get in before a 3.5 physics major, so you won't be doing yourself any favors by choosing a more difficult path. And in an interest of increasing diversity, some schools may actually favor an art over science major.

This is true, but using that information to avoid hard science majors at all costs is ridiculous. How about just doing quality work rather than derping out and majoring in art?

 

[I'm No Superman]

I guess I'd just say go somewhere you like, where you go to undergrad doesn't matter.

As for good schools near Boston, I've heard Tufts is a very nice college.

 

[RunningStudent]

Thanks for all of the advice so far. All of the schools I'm considering have different majors I'm interested in, so that's not a problem. Quick question: just out of curiosity (and somewhat boredom), I took a quick look at local medical colleges. My public school, UMass Medical, doesn't offer a discounted rate to in-state residents, and it would cost just as much to go out of state. I think I already know the answer, but would it matter where I undergrad in relation to medical school acceptance? For example, if I go to a New England school, am I stuck in New England, or would I be able to go somewhere like U. of Cincinnati? Obviously too early to start worrying about things like that, but I'm just curious. Thanks again for all of the advice!

 

[I'm No Superman]

Thanks for all of the advice so far. All of the schools I'm considering have different majors I'm interested in, so that's not a problem. Quick question: just out of curiosity (and somewhat boredom), I took a quick look at local medical colleges. My public school, UMass Medical, doesn't offer a discounted rate to in-state residents, and it would cost just as much to go out of state. I think I already know the answer, but would it matter where I undergrad in relation to medical school acceptance? For example, if I go to a New England school, am I stuck in New England, or would I be able to go somewhere like U. of Cincinnati? Obviously too early to start worrying about things like that, but I'm just curious. Thanks again for all of the advice!

You can go to medical school anywhere you want to, your undergrad location won't/shouldn't be factored in at any school, only your GPA, MCAT, ECs, research etc.

 

[deleted393595]

This is true, but using that information to avoid hard science majors at all costs is ridiculous. How about just doing quality work rather than derping out and majoring in art?

And if you don't get into med school, good luck getting a job with an art degree.

 

[demh23]

Well done. You have chosen the path of least resistance. Once you are done with your plug and chug physics, you'll need to select some real cush courses that show how sensitive and socially aware that you are. Don't forget to bring the cookies to the operating room.

Umm thats weird because you were just advocating taking easier courses:

If you want to go to medical school you should first look at the 50th and 75th percentile SAT scores at any college. If your SATs aren't in the top 25% of matriculating students at a college, don't go there. You don't want a fair fight. You want to pummel the competition.

Then you should look at the course descriptions in the physics department. If the college does not offer a 1 year algebra based physics sequence with a lab, stay away. If you have to take calculus based physics you will also have to take multivariable calculus. This is just stupid. No medical school in the US requires calculus based physics. Why bother with this agony?

 

[NickNaylor]

And if you don't get into med school, good luck getting a job with an art degree.

Another very good point.

 

[tehdude]

This is true, but using that information to avoid hard science majors at all costs is ridiculous. How about just doing quality work rather than derping out and majoring in art?

Choosing a difficult pre-med major is an exercise in self-flagellation. You waste a lot of effort acquiring unnecessarily knowledge that you'll never use and will likely soon forget. You also have to realize that many students capable of finishing med school never get the chance. It's competitive to gain admittance. Not everyone can major in engineering and make the grades.

 

[NickNaylor]

Thanks for all of the advice so far. All of the schools I'm considering have different majors I'm interested in, so that's not a problem. Quick question: just out of curiosity (and somewhat boredom), I took a quick look at local medical colleges. My public school, UMass Medical, doesn't offer a discounted rate to in-state residents, and it would cost just as much to go out of state. I think I already know the answer, but would it matter where I undergrad in relation to medical school acceptance? For example, if I go to a New England school, am I stuck in New England, or would I be able to go somewhere like U. of Cincinnati? Obviously too early to start worrying about things like that, but I'm just curious. Thanks again for all of the advice!

For the most part it's irrelevant. However (and this isn't based on anything but personal opinion) I can see how it would play a part, albeit insignificant. It's not something you should factor into your decision.

 

[tehdude]

And if you don't get into med school, good luck getting a job with an art degree.

If it's med school or bust, there's no reason to hedge your bets. Putting all your chips on an easy major would be the best strategy.

 

[HH Holmes]

And if you don't get into med school, good luck getting a job with an art degree.

I totally agree, but what the hell are you going to do solely with a degree in biology or chemistry?

If you want to go "fluff" and still have job security, business is still consistently the highest paid bachelor's degree and has one of the best starting salaries as well.

Plus, if you do into medicine, a business degree will help with running a private practice.

 

[Long Way to Go]

Thanks for all of the advice so far. All of the schools I'm considering have different majors I'm interested in, so that's not a problem. Quick question: just out of curiosity (and somewhat boredom), I took a quick look at local medical colleges. My public school, UMass Medical, doesn't offer a discounted rate to in-state residents, and it would cost just as much to go out of state. I think I already know the answer, but would it matter where I undergrad in relation to medical school acceptance? For example, if I go to a New England school, am I stuck in New England, or would I be able to go somewhere like U. of Cincinnati? Obviously too early to start worrying about things like that, but I'm just curious. Thanks again for all of the advice!

That is because the only out-of-state students UMass Medical accepts are MD/PhD students.

 

[RunningStudent]

Excuse me for a few minutes. No matter where I look, I'm facing at least $150,000 in debt for medical school. Unlike most states, Massachusetts decides to charge in-state residents just as much as any other out-of-state medical school in the state for tuition. For God's sake, Harvard only charges $4,000 more than UMass. I'd be better off moving to a new state and applying to their local school. I love medicine and would be ecstatic to become a physician. However, I also want to have a family and somewhat of a life, and $160,000 for medical school seems to throw my whole life into working. Still have a long time to go, but I'm stuck and am in a bind.

Okay, my small rant is over. Thanks for all of the advice so far, and feel free to continue.

 

[hownowmauvecow]

Excuse me for a few minutes. No matter where I look, I'm facing at least $150,000 in debt for medical school. Unlike most states, Massachusetts decides to charge in-state residents just as much as any other out-of-state medical school in the state for tuition. For God's sake, Harvard only charges $4,000 more than UMass. I'd be better off moving to a new state and applying to their local school. I love medicine and would be ecstatic to become a physician. However, I also want to have a family and somewhat of a life, and $160,000 for medical school seems to throw my whole life into working. Still have a long time to go, but I'm stuck and am in a bind.

Okay, my small rant is over. Thanks for all of the advice so far, and feel free to continue.

It sounds to me (and I could be wrong) that you are thinking of moving to another state for college and then applying to their college as an instate resident? Just be careful, in some states you have a lot of additional hoops to jump through if you want to be considered in state. You might be better off going somewhere cheaper for undergrad so you have less loans for undergrad and are in a better position for medical school.

 

[NickNaylor]

I totally agree, but what the hell are you going to do solely with a degree in biology or chemistry?

If you want to go "fluff" and still have job security, business is still consistently the highest paid bachelor's degree and has one of the best starting salaries as well.

Plus, if you do into medicine, a business degree will help with running a private practice.

Orly?

 

[RunningStudent]

It sounds to me (and I could be wrong) that you are thinking of moving to another state for college and then applying to their college as an instate resident? Just be careful, in some states you have a lot of additional hoops to jump through if you want to be considered in state. You might be better off going somewhere cheaper for undergrad so you have less loans for undergrad and are in a better position for medical school.

More just part of my frustration with UMass. They're having a 5-10% hike in the near future, so I'm just stuck on what I should do now. The undergrad colleges I'm looking at usually are between 25-35 thousand per year. UMass Amherst just doesn't match with what I want for undergrad, and the rest of UMass isn't great pre-med.

 

[Long Way to Go]

Excuse me for a few minutes. No matter where I look, I'm facing at least $150,000 in debt for medical school. Unlike most states, Massachusetts decides to charge in-state residents just as much as any other out-of-state medical school in the state for tuition. For God's sake, Harvard only charges $4,000 more than UMass. I'd be better off moving to a new state and applying to their local school. I love medicine and would be ecstatic to become a physician. However, I also want to have a family and somewhat of a life, and $160,000 for medical school seems to throw my whole life into working. Still have a long time to go, but I'm stuck and am in a bind.

Okay, my small rant is over. Thanks for all of the advice so far, and feel free to continue.

Harvard Medical School tuition and fees: 45,050 + 1,166 + 63 + 35 + 415 + 85 = $46,814/year
University of Massachusetts School of Medicine tuition and fees: 8,532 + 7,386 + 103 + 608 = $16,629/year
46,814-16,629=$30,185/year. And this doesn't take into account living expenses, which I'm assuming will be far higher in Boston.

Math is hard.