What happens if there is a US DRAFT?

[H0mersimps0n]

well, lets be serious, North Korean isn't exactly sending us birthday cards and fruit baskets lately. That on top of President "Trigger-Happy" about to remove Iraq from the map...

I don't know about the other undergraduate university's around but I know a lot of people here have to leave after this semester and heard they have called up ALL of the reserves. We seem to be losing a ton of students.

I personally think we have the man-power to stage whatever we are going to stage in Iraq but think any skirmishes with N. Korea would result in needing a lot more manpower... (lets just speculate)

so (finally) my question is, what is the official take on matriculated medical students?

what is the official take on people like me who won't be officially matriculated until the fall (august-ish)?

I read online somewhere that for regular college students you are allowed to finish that year/semester then have to leave, even if in the middle of your 4 years. Is that the same for medical students?

just a curiosity... thanks!

EDIT: I can't find it anywhere on the Selective Service's page www.sss.gov

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[SawBones]

What will happen? Well, if anyone reads anymore, then I will suggest that they read Vietnam 1968-1969: A Battalion Surgeon Journal by Byron E. Holley, MD. This was a very intersting book written by a physician that was drafted during his internship year.

 

[group_theory]

What will happen if there is a US Draft?

Assuming something drastic happens and Congress authorizes a draft.

First there is a lottery. Numbers 1 to 366 are selected in order.
Let's say that this is the order they're selected:
366, 1, 30, 32, ..., 5.

Then all males who are 20 years of age and born on December 31 will be drafted first. Then all males born Jan 1 who are 20 years of age are drafted next. Then it's Jan 30, and Feb 1, etc. until they go through all 366 days of the year (including leap year).

Then they will start drafting 21 year olds, going through the exact same order. Then 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 18, and 19.

You can not be drafted after you are 26 years old.

In terms of student - they changed the process since the Vietnam war
If you are a student, you can only finish up your semester (or trimester or term) before being drafted. There is no student deferrment. The only exception is if you are in your senior year of school - in which case they will allow you to finish your year, graduate - then get drafted.

You have to get drafted first before you can appeal to the local civilian draft board to classify you as an objector.

I think that's how it works if a draft was reinstated.

HOWEVER, there is also another section called the Health Care Personnel Delivery System (HCPDS), which is a standby plan developed for the Selective Service System at the request of Congress. If needed it would be used to draft health care personnel in a crisis. It is designed to be implemented in connection with a national mobilization in an emergency, and then only if Congress and the President approve the plan and pass and sign legislation to enact it. No portion of the plan is designed for implementation in peacetime.


Group_theory

**Disclaimer** - I am not in the military, nor are any of my parents or relatives, nor am I with the selective service. Take the above information with a grain of salt since I can not provide links to back up what I have said.

 

[H0mersimps0n]

that is all basically right according to www.sss.gov

but my question (which still remains to be answered) is what happens to medical students?

We are not considered "college" students are we? Are we considered health care professionals as students? nowhere does it mention graduate/professional school attendee's

hmmm

 

[group_theory]

As a medical student, you are stilled classified as "student" and thus will be allowed to finish your semeter or trimester before being drafted.

However, the chances of that happening is unlikly since most med students (MS1-MS4) are 22 years old or older. If you are 22, then before they start w/ your age group, they would have gone through 2 rounds of drafting already.

 

[rpames]

This has been my plan...

If the draft is implemented and I receive a little letter in the mail with a return address of the Selective Services, I'm going down to the Naval of Coast Guard recruitment station and signing up for 4 years. I have enough credits to graduate next week, so I would file the paper work and get my degree so I would enter the forces as an officer. This creates a smaller chance of being on the front lines.

I really don't think I would have to do this, we have a pretty large military.

 

[H0mersimps0n]

Are you allowed to do that? Dodge the draft by enlisting? lol

It seems like a sensible thing to do if you are a medical student and get called up. Wouldn't they let you stay in school and serve your 4 years after graduation etc?

I know it probably won't happen but it's not bad to consider and discuss. Something different from the stupid, typical, useless "whats better an MD or DO" discussions...

 

[rpames]

Who here carries their draft card in their wallets? I do!!!

 

[H0mersimps0n]

yeah I do... thought you were suppose to carry it on you at all times?

 

[rpames]

You are, but no one I know besides myself does. My father had his in his wallet until he was 50!!! I told him he was probably safe in taking it out.

 

[jennij]

Originally posted by H0mersimps0n
Are you allowed to do that? Dodge the draft by enlisting? lol

I know people did that durring Vietnam. They joined the Navy for two years to avoid the draft. I don't know if that was right or not, but it worked....

I think it is highly unlikely that they will draft again. Think about the way we fight wars now.... more strategic, technology based, drones, etc.... We also have a very sizable military, and with putting fewer people on the front lines, I don't think they will hassle with a draft. Just my opinion.

 

[Doctor Peloncito]

Originally posted by H0mersimps0n
Are you allowed to do that? Dodge the draft by enlisting? lol

My dad did this in college. He was a junior at MU in Colombia, MO. My grandmother called him from California on the phone to tell him that he and his best friend (also at MU) had been sent letters by the draft board. His was on the way to Missouri. So he and his best friend went down and signed up with ROTC. Both were able to graduate from college, my dad went on to be a career army intelligence officer and his best friend volunteered to go to Vietnam and got out after 1 tour. Both are alive and well today.

WBDO

 

[abw]

Originally posted by H0mersimps0n
Are you allowed to do that? Dodge the draft by enlisting? lol

My grandfather tried to do that for WWII - he went to the air force, navy and marines to try to enlist, but was turned down for being color blind. He wound up having to go by draft to the army.

 

[edmadison]

Originally posted by rpames
This has been my plan...

If the draft is implemented and I receive a little letter in the mail with a return address of the Selective Services, I'm going down to the Naval of Coast Guard recruitment station and signing up for 4 years. I have enough credits to graduate next week, so I would file the paper work and get my degree so I would enter the forces as an officer. This creates a smaller chance of being on the front lines.

I really don't think I would have to do this, we have a pretty large military.

Interesting. I remember hearing that the coast guard had the highest casualty rate in Viet Nam. You see, those little river boats the the Navy had (remember apocolypse now) were often crewed by the Coast Guard. Well, they got really shot up. At least until we cleared the jungle with agent orange.

If you want to be safe, sign up for the Aif Force. If you aren't a pilot you risk would be minimal.

Ed

 

[H0mersimps0n]

whoa whoa, I'm not trying to think of ways to dodge the draft or avoid combat myself... I have no problem at all serving in any branch of the armed forces, I was just curious what "would" happen. Just thinking out loud.

 

[phil413ru]

FYI---

Currently, I am a ROTC student about to be comissioned in May. The Army gave me a delayed entrance because the Army really need Doctors. If you signed up as HPSP/USUHS student or FAP, I doubt the Army would draft you before finishing Medical School. They would probably contract that as soon as you are done, you will join X branch (Army is the best), completing you residency in the Armed Services.

Although the draft is unlikey, it can happen. But realize that all branches of the military desperately need doctors. Enlisted soldiers are easy to come by, but doctors are not as easy. As an ROTC student, one CANNOT be drafted. One finishes up schooling and THEN serves time. (This was a big concern of many of our students after 9/11). I am no authority, but Med school is probably the same way--they will wait until your a doctor before they use you.

Re enlisting so as not to be drafted. . .I know many who went this route. If drafted, you don't get much in selection of branch. However, if enlist (after completing college) you could be an officer in a branch you actually would enjoy.

Good luck at Med school!

 

[H0mersimps0n]

as conflict looms I thought I'd post an interesting article from the NY Times. I'm not sure the link is going to work because you might have to register (FREE) and login first but here is the link:

HERE

If that DOESN'T work, just go to www.nytimes.com and search for keyword DRAFT. Its the editorial...

Any new thoughts?

 

[ckent]

My understanding of the draft is that students are never drafted while they are actively enrolled in school. I do know that doctors are subject to the draft, not to be drafted as soldiers but as doctors for the military. The oldest age one can be drafted to serve as a soldier is ~30, but doctors are exempt and can be drafted up until the age of 35. At least that's how they did it for Vietnam.

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

I think most med students would be much more useful to the military after graduation, so they should take graduating seniors first.

In a war with N. Korea there would be no need for a draft as our current policy toward them is to drop back and punt....punt a nuclear warhead up their bum that is. US needs to pull some ninja on Saddam and smoke the commies. Then, once the world is somewhat safe again, you could have a liberal president again to toke off the peace pipe (but not inhale) with us and take credit for it.

I love politiking (I am picturing all the left wingers out there rocking back and forth having "oh no he didn't just say that" seizures) hehehe

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by ckent
My understanding of the draft is that students are never drafted while they are actively enrolled in school. I do know that doctors are subject to the draft, not to be drafted as soldiers but as doctors for the military. The oldest age one can be drafted to serve as a soldier is ~30, but doctors are exempt and can be drafted up until the age of 35. At least that's how they did it for Vietnam.

Things have changed ...

http://www.sss.gov/FSdiffer.htm

"Before Congress reformed the draft in 1971, a man could qualify for a student deferment if he could show he was a full-time student making satisfactory progress in virtually any field of study. He could continue to go to school and be deferred from service until he was too old to be drafted. Under the new draft law, a college student could have his induction postponed only until the end of the current semester. A senior could be postponed until the end of the full academic year."

http://www.sss.gov/FSmedical.htm

"The Health Care Personnel Delivery System (HCPDS) is a standby plan developed for the Selective Service System at the request of Congress. If needed it would be used to draft health care personnel in a crisis. It is designed to be implemented in connection with a national mobilization in an emergency, and then only if Congress and the President approve the plan and pass and sign legislation to enact it. No portion of the plan is designed for implementation in peacetime. If implemented, HCPDS would:

Provide a fair and equitable draft of doctors, nurses, medical technicians and those with certain other health care skills if, in some future emergency, the military?s existing medical capability proved insufficient and there is a shortage of volunteers.

Include women, unless directed otherwise by Congress and the President.

Draft a very small percentage of America?s health care providers into military service. Impact on the availability of civilian health care would be minimal. Those health-care workers whose absence would seriously hurt their communities would be deferred on the basis of community essentiality.

Begin a mass registration of male and female health care workers between the ages of 20 and 45. They would register at local post offices. HCPDS would provide medical personnel from a pool of 3.4 million doctors, nurses, specialists and allied health professionals in more than 60 fields of medicine."

- Tae

 

[H0mersimps0n]

yeah Tae, I read all that when I first posted here...

my main problem is that as medical students, we technically aren't "college students" nor "medical personnel" we seem to lie somewhere inbetween and nothing I've read anywhere (just out of curiosity remember) seems to account for the small fraction of the population in medical school...

interesting

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by H0mersimps0n
yeah Tae, I read all that when I first posted here...

Sorry, man, my bad. But I was adding info towards ckent's post.

my main problem is that as medical students, we technically aren't "college students" nor "medical personnel" we seem to lie somewhere inbetween and nothing I've read anywhere (just out of curiosity remember) seems to account for the small fraction of the population in medical school...

interesting

I have a feeling that depending on the urgency of the need, we could either be allowed to finish the semester or the fourth year, if we are close, or allowed to defer until completion.

Being a paramedic, I'd be hosed if a 'modified' medical personnel draft came around ...

- Tae

 

[chop choi]

Being in the military (sorta), there's always been questions about a draft. To be honest, I doubt there is going to be a draft.

First of all, Vietnam. That was the last time there was a draft. I don't think they want to experience anything like that again.

Secondly, the way wars are fought today, much more technology and all the tanks, ships, jets, etc. One little click of a button and you can bomb a country out of existence.

Thirdly, I think we have enough servicemen in the military that we won't need to draft. The volunteer program has worked, plus we've got all those people in the Reserves, National Guard, etc. So, we're not in shortage of manpower really.

Who knows what the future will bring though.

 

[ckent]

Originally posted by chop choi
Secondly, the way wars are fought today, much more technology and all the tanks, ships, jets, etc. One little click of a button and you can bomb a country out of existence.

That's true. These days, soldiers and pilots need months/years of training to be of any help to the US military. Whereas before they would just give everyone a gun and tell them to charge, and the more people you had on your side, the better chance you had of winning; these days wars are fought completely differently.

 

[CJLaw]

Since I am currently a member of the reserves I have knowledge of how all this works and because none of you have disparaged our country or the President I'll give you some tips. First, the poster who listed the rules of the draft is correct. If you're over 26, you're alright. Secondly, if you are in med school and you beleive that you are at risk for being draft, go to the local recruiter and enlist for 2-3 years (whichever is the least) in the reserve or national guard. By doing that, you are taken out of the pool, will receive a commision (though the one poster is wrong--butter bar LT's always get put on the front line!), and most importantly will only go to war if your unit is called up. Now, in the case that your reserve unit is called up, you MUST be MOS (military speak for job) qualified to be mobilized. The trick here is that when you enlist, to get the last possible Basic Training date (its only 8 weeks, so you can fit it in on summer break) then you have 1 full year from the date of graduation to go to MOS school. By most counts, by the time you get back from MOS school and are mobilization ready the enlistment is up! And if its not, (this one will blow your mind) if you are within 90 days of your ETS date (the day you get out) they cannot make you go overseas with the unit. Rather, they give you the option to serve the last 90 days in a non-mobilized unit or get out completly! AND because of prior service, the draft board cannot resubmit your name to the pool, EVER!

BTW, all of this doesn't matter because Congress will not enact the draft. As the military stands right now, we are capable of fighting a full scale war on 2 fronts. The only way a draft is started is if we are losing one of them (meaning high casulty rate). So chill out, your plans are not going to be disrupted.

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by CJ2Doc
Since I am currently a member of the reserves I have knowledge of how all this works and because none of you have disparaged our country or the President I'll give you some tips.

Dude, you were kidding when you wrote this part, yes?

- Tae

 

[H0mersimps0n]

So what you're saying is that Medical students are classified as "college students" and can/will/would be yanked when the semester is up as stated...?

I find this hard to swallow because my girlfriends father was A1 to go to Vietnam but was accepted to medical school and taken out of the pool. Unless they've changed something, and I'm pretty sure they haven't, this would/should still hold today?

hmmm...

 

[bnevans188]

One thing I learned after five years of active duty in the Marines is that there are exceptions to any military rule. That is why most of the rules are so vague. As for fighting a war on two fronts, that will definetly depend on the enemy. In the worst case scenario we could go to war with Iraq and turn the muslim world against us and go to war with North Korea and upset China or go nuclear. Fortunately, a draft would likely be political suicide, so most politicians likely will not stand for it. I do not think it would be as bad to be in the Navy or Coast Guard as in Vietnam (both services did take pretty heavy losses in 'Nam) as there will be not Mekong to patrol, but there are alot of cities and villiages that are on the ocean. Basically, what I am saying is if it comes down to a draft we may all have to kiss our a$$e$ goodbye. Let's hope for peace.

 

[H0mersimps0n]

AGREED

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by bnevans188
Basically, what I am saying is if it comes down to a draft we may all have to kiss our a$$e$ goodbye. Let's hope for peace.

Amen to that. But, if it gets bad enough that my old, married, paramedic-trained, college-educated ass is elegible for the draft, then it's bad enough that I want to be where I can do the most good.

- Tae

 

[bnevans188]

As a paramedic you could go in as a medic (army) or corpsman (navy assigned to Marine unit). Both are very highly respected and absolutely necessary for the unit to function.

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by bnevans188
As a paramedic you could go in as a medic (army) or corpsman (navy assigned to Marine unit). Both are very highly respected and absolutely necessary for the unit to function.

Yeah, but I gots a college degree, so wouldn't I get commissioned? Would they send a medic-trained, cherry butter-bar Lt./ensign out to get his ass shot off?

The casualty rates for frontline medics is quite high. *shudder* I got a lot of respect for the 'docs' that go out with their units.

- Tae

 

[H0mersimps0n]

Haven't you seen Saving Private Ryan, they never shoot at the guys with the big red Crosses on their heads?

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by H0mersimps0n
Haven't you seen Saving Private Ryan, they never shoot at the guys with the big red Crosses on their heads?

I always thought them red crosses made perfect cross-hair targets for snipers.

Watching 'Band of Brothers' on DVD - gotta love Netflix. Brutal, brutal stuff.

- Tae

 

[bnevans188]

If you have a four year degree you would likely go in as an Lt. I am not sure if medic Lt.'s even go into the field. That may be left up to the enlisted medics. But, as far as infantry LT.'s and what not I think their average time of survival dropping into a hot LZ in Vietnam was something like 2 minutes. As for the red cross on the helmet, I never understood the logic behind wearing camoflague utilities and then a big white and red bullseye on your head. The safest bet would probably be in the Air Force.

 

[tkim]

Originally posted by bnevans188
If you have a four year degree you would likely go in as an Lt. I am not sure if medic Lt.'s even go into the field. That may be left up to the enlisted medics. But, as far as infantry LT.'s and what not I think their average time of survival dropping into a hot LZ in Vietnam was something like 2 minutes.

For a Navy corpsman - something like 43 secs.

As for the red cross on the helmet, I never understood the logic behind wearing camoflague utilities and then a big white and red bullseye on your head. The safest bet would probably be in the Air Force.

I'm getting a physical on Tuesday.

- Tae

 

[PACtoDOC]

There is no such thing as an officer who is also a medic in any service...bottom line. Rest assured that if you are in medical school , you will not get drafted in this day and age. The people who are the safest though are the HPSP guys because the military (Army particularly) has a policy that they do not take you out of medical school for war or anything else. If it got so bad that they were drafting medical students, you would have two options. You could enter the service as a medical service corps officer and then you would be the administrative officer in charge of a small likely front line medical platoon. That is if you go Army. Navy would use you in the same capacity but likely with the Marines or on a ship heading up a medical department. I don't know about the Air Force because it is the only service I have not served with. Anyone with medical experience might choose to serve in their specialty, like a paramedic serving as a Navy Corspman or Army medic. You would be enlisted but your job would be less dangerous in some ways. The bottom line is that you guys have nothing to worry about. There are plenty of non-college men to fulfill the needs of the draft if there ever was one, and I can promise you that neither NK or Iraq offer a challenge that will require a draft. China or the Soviet Republic would be different, but NK will look like a burnt up Ski village if they decide to fight us. I think we would Nuke them way before we would ever Nuke Saddam. And judging from the capacity of his troops in the GulF War, and seeing them get slaughtered first hand, I can tell you that the ones still in the service there are still suffering from PTSD after their first ass kicking. They are just waiting to jump ship once we take Bahgdad. You will literally see Iraqi soldiers on CNN this next go around kissing the ground in our presence once Saddam is out of power, and the people of Iraq will do the same thing. I see shopping malls in the future of Iraq, along with Big Macs!!

 

[bnevans188]

I agree that the Iraqi military is no match for the U.S. military. But will the muslim nations appreciate a large U.S. presence at their borders. We are not very popular in that region. Especially with the U.S. track record of screwing muslim countries. Don't get me wrong, Saddam is a horrible person, but will the average muslim country take up sides with him or us. As far as North Korea, that is a no win situation. We nuke them and they nuke South Korea and possibly Japan. And then will China put up with U.S. troops crawling all over their border. Not to mention the ethical problems of nuking civilians. I know this thread was not originally about this but I think it is an interesting and important conversation.