What do NEW interns know?

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PopeChaChaStix

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Hello! I've been asking this question for a year now, and always get very unsatisfactory answers: "oh don't worry about it." "Just relax".

Well I've got about 4 months left as an M4 and figured I'd post it here:

What should I be able to do on day 1 of intern year?

Because if I'm honest, I don't know anything. I can do an H&P...I can come up with a dx and ddx...but after that? My plan is "probably....X?"

For example, I don't know on the spot how to treat diabetic foot infections. I have a rough idea, but NOT when to image...when to biopsy...and definitely not which antibiotic to choose and really really not what dosage.

So...what should an intern know and be able to do on day 1?

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Everything you said sounds like where you should be at. Dont sweat it. Getting a good HPI and PE , writing a note in a timely manner, and doing your best to come up with a ddx and treatment plan (which will probably be incorrect lol but will help as you move forward in your training) is all you need on day one.

Work hard. Ask lots of questions. Even if you think it’s dumb but aren’t sure, ask! You’ll either have or run into a_sshole seniors/ consultants/ colleagues, so being able to “move on to the next play” quickly will help you not get bogged down (I struggled with this myself).

No one is gonna expect anything else.

Good luck!
 
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Know your limitations.
Know to ask for help.
Know how to google.
Know how to acknowledge mistakes.
Know how to learn from your mistakes.
Just relax.

Residency is training, not a standardized test.
 
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Nothing. from November-Juneish of the next year I forgot probably 80% of medical school. and 80% of medical school is like 25% of what residency is like. So do the math.
 
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Honestly residency is a process. For 80% of folks it's going to be a smooth path that progressively leads into you checking off all the important points needed for your field.

The things that make it happen easier is accepting that residency is pretty much 90% of your life right now. Playing nice with your seniors and having a good dynamic with them. And also being very accepting that you're going to be beaten down by this because you're not going to do things right now.

You should know how to present a patient with some level of comprehension and logic. It doesn't need to be perfect, but don't be fumbling around not able to explain that someone is having a COPD AE. Likewise don't put in orders that you don't understand, I really don't want to be going through the patient and removing expensive tests that contribute nothing to their work up.

Honestly the one folks who I really have had a lot of trouble teaching or working with are off service folks with bad medicine backgrounds or people who are utterly dispassionate about medicine.
 
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You don't need to know any of the things you described. You need to be able to know when to ask for help, to ask for it, to work hard, and to be teachable. That's it.

I remember feeling worse than the 4th year sub-Is my first month of residency. You know why? Because I spent the preceding 6 months trying my best not to learn anything and focusing on my family and life. It was worth it. Easily the time from matching to the start of residency still stands as one the best periods of my life (and I could probably extend that to the Jan before because it was also awesome, just not as awesome as match).

My advice: "oh don't worry about it." "Just relax".
 
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For a July 1 Intern
Know how to present a patient (or 10) during rounds
Know how to write a progress note or H&P (with help/input from seniors)
Know when to ask for help if you don't know something
Know how to prioritize - sick patients/patient care takes precedents over notes/signout lists, etc
Know how to work with seniors, fellows, nurses, unit secretaries, etc
Know the main problems with your patients (might not know exactly the management, but that's what residency is for)
Willingness to learn and accept input (and constructive criticism) from everyone
Realize everyone is in the same boat, struggling and nervous, and everyone is struggling with time management
If you have an SubI medical student, ask him/her for help since they know the system as a medical student (ie where to find radiology reports, how to page someone, where are the bathrooms, advice on local areas if you're new to the area)
BE AVAILABLE (don't go AWOL, hide, take 2 hr lunch breaks, etc)


 
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You don't need to know any of the things you described. You need to be able to know when to ask for help, to ask for it, to work hard, and to be teachable. That's it.

I remember feeling worse than the 4th year sub-Is my first month of residency. You know why? Because I spent the preceding 6 months trying my best not to learn anything and focusing on my family and life. It was worth it. Easily the time from matching to the start of residency still stands as one the best periods of my life (and I could probably extend that to the Jan before because it was also awesome, just not as awesome as match).

My advice: "oh don't worry about it." "Just relax".
Omg i feel like a complete idiot next to my sub-i. Like daily. It sucks
 
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Omg i feel like a complete idiot next to my sub-i. Like daily. It sucks
I'm sure at this point that's not true. You just know different things, more practical work things. You'll see how much you've learned at the beginning of next year when you see all the interns.
 
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I'm sure at this point that's not true. You just know different things, more practical work things. You'll see how much you've learned at the beginning of next year when you see all the interns.

Yeah but what if I ignore that helpful and realistic advice and instead panic at the idea of being a PGY2?
 
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I'm sure at this point that's not true. You just know different things, more practical work things. You'll see how much you've learned at the beginning of next year when you see all the interns.
I should say that I am on a service that isn’t my specialty and this is an auditioning sub-i.
 
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For a July 1 Intern
Know how to present a patient (or 10) during rounds
Know how to write a progress note or H&P (with help/input from seniors)
Know when to ask for help if you don't know something
Know how to prioritize - sick patients/patient care takes precedents over notes/signout lists, etc
Know how to work with seniors, fellows, nurses, unit secretaries, etc
Know the main problems with your patients (might not know exactly the management, but that's what residency is for)
Willingness to learn and accept input (and constructive criticism) from everyone
Realize everyone is in the same boat, struggling and nervous, and everyone is struggling with time management
If you have an SubI medical student, ask him/her for help since they know the system as a medical student (ie where to find radiology reports, how to page someone, where are the bathrooms, advice on local areas if you're new to the area)
BE AVAILABLE (don't go AWOL, hide, take 2 hr lunch breaks, etc)




Agree. This is more or less where I expect a new intern. I will add I would expect some difficulty for a new intern keeping track of all the important details for 10 patients initially (at least typical medicine patients anyway), partially because they won't know what's important. Early goals - (1) learn the emr, how to write orders (and with this, establish a system for order checking prior to signing - it's scarily easy to write an order for the wrong patient, mistime a med, etc) (2) organize yourself in a way you aren't forgetting your to do's (3) task prioritize (orders for sick patients, consults, discharges, other orders, notes). I expect those things to be pretty well established over the course of an interns first ward rotation.

I think it's already been said before but ask when you don't know. ASK WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW. Interns do stupid **** for fear of asking and looking stupid then they look doubly stupid and patients potentially get hurt. Much better to annoy the hell out of your senior than be the dangerous intern. New seniors might not realize it but it's also a lot less work to supervise a needy intern than being constantly vigilant around the aloof intern

Edit: medical education is a residents responsibility, but you need to make sure you're on top of your own business first. Don't worry too much about educating early intern year unless there's true down time, let your senior and staff pick up that slack
 
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Hello! I've been asking this question for a year now, and always get very unsatisfactory answers: "oh don't worry about it." "Just relax".

Well I've got about 4 months left as an M4 and figured I'd post it here:

What should I be able to do on day 1 of intern year?

Because if I'm honest, I don't know anything. I can do an H&P...I can come up with a dx and ddx...but after that? My plan is "probably....X?"

For example, I don't know on the spot how to treat diabetic foot infections. I have a rough idea, but NOT when to image...when to biopsy...and definitely not which antibiotic to choose and really really not what dosage.

So...what should an intern know and be able to do on day 1?
This is when medicine will finally start coming together and making sense to you. It sounds like you're already asking the right questions

Does this need imaging? Does this need biopsy? What kind of antibiotic?

Now you are the doctor and have no choice but to figure this out. So start slowly. You have an infection. You already know they need an antibiotic. That's great. Do you know the organism? No? Okay, then just generally you know you'll have to start something more broad spectrum. Big question, do I cover MRSA? Do I cover pseudomonas? That will tell you how broad. How much do I give? Let me cheat and use my buddy epocrates on my phone or buy the antibiotic guide from EMRA. But hey, you want to know what it is to give the right antibiotic in the end, right? So maybe I should culture this thing and sent it to the lab. Maybe it's in the blood, lets culture that too. Now, does the infection look on the surface? Then maybe treating over is good. Is there something messing this up like poor vascularization? Does it look deep? Maybe then I should order an image because it could be osteo. Now what image? Well, lets see what uptodate says. Okay, now what else? Do I just leave this here all full of pus and nasty? No? Maybe I should call someone that can help like wound care. Now that you've done everything you can think of maybe I should suggest calling a bigger gun like consulting podiatry? Bring that up in rounds

I know it seems hard when you haven't done this, but you already know how to do this and have all the necessary knowledge to do 80% of medicine. Now it's the time you will put things together, and you will have someone to catch you if you miss something (senior resident) and someone push you further by questioning you (attending)
 
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Shoot first and ask Qs later. Vanc/Zosyn always for all pts who you think are infected.
 
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I feel your neuroticism OP; I’m right there with ya. I say we just enjoy the relaxing ride through graduation for now tho. 😎
 
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This is when medicine will finally start coming together and making sense to you. It sounds like you're already asking the right questions

Does this need imaging? Does this need biopsy? What kind of antibiotic?

Now you are the doctor and have no choice but to figure this out. So start slowly. You have an infection. You already know they need an antibiotic. That's great. Do you know the organism? No? Okay, then just generally you know you'll have to start something more broad spectrum. Big question, do I cover MRSA? Do I cover pseudomonas? That will tell you how broad. How much do I give? Let me cheat and use my buddy epocrates on my phone or buy the antibiotic guide from EMRA. But hey, you want to know what it is to give the right antibiotic in the end, right? So maybe I should culture this thing and sent it to the lab. Maybe it's in the blood, lets culture that too. Now, does the infection look on the surface? Then maybe treating over is good. Is there something messing this up like poor vascularization? Does it look deep? Maybe then I should order an image because it could be osteo. Now what image? Well, lets see what uptodate says. Okay, now what else? Do I just leave this here all full of pus and nasty? No? Maybe I should call someone that can help like wound care. Now that you've done everything you can think of maybe I should suggest calling a bigger gun like consulting podiatry? Bring that up in rounds

I know it seems hard when you haven't done this, but you already know how to do this and have all the necessary knowledge to do 80% of medicine. Now it's the time you will put things together, and you will have someone to catch you if you miss something (senior resident) and someone push you further by questioning you (attending)
This is an amazing post, you hit the nail on the head.
 
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Shoot first and ask Qs later. Vanc/Zosyn always for all pts who you think are infected.

What the infectious disease doctor looks like when he sees what you ordered
doctors GIF by New Amsterdam


What the intern looks like when placing such orders
Mr Bean Thumbs Up GIF
 
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Hello! I've been asking this question for a year now, and always get very unsatisfactory answers: "oh don't worry about it." "Just relax".

Well I've got about 4 months left as an M4 and figured I'd post it here:

What should I be able to do on day 1 of intern year?

Because if I'm honest, I don't know anything. I can do an H&P...I can come up with a dx and ddx...but after that? My plan is "probably....X?"

For example, I don't know on the spot how to treat diabetic foot infections. I have a rough idea, but NOT when to image...when to biopsy...and definitely not which antibiotic to choose and really really not what dosage.

So...what should an intern know and be able to do on day 1?
Your post reminds me of an old joke bandied about be some of the SDN clinicians:

Q: What's the difference between a new intern and an MS4?
A: About two weeks of vacation.
 
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just an M1 here. i wanna be an intern already. seems like such a long road
 
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just an M1 here. i wanna be an intern already. seems like such a long road
M4, scared ****less to be an intern in 4 months. You'll be an intern before you blink. Enjoy the ride!
 
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Intern year seems like eons ago (only 2015 for me but damn a lot has happened since) but I can honestly say, it was a good experience. Challenging, but good.

to all you upcoming interns. Take a deep breath; you’ll almost certainly do fine. There’s been some high quality advice given here. Grouptheory really nailed it in post #7
 
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Your post reminds me of an old joke bandied about be some of the SDN clinicians:

Q: What's the difference between a new intern and an MS4?
A: About two weeks of vacation.
Always good to hear from thee Goro
 
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Thanks all! It's been a very useful thread. I'm trying to make the most of these last few rotations, presenting patients and following them even though the attending does not require it of me...seems like in the covid times, I've got some rust in terms of basic repetition. But, one foot then the other....
 
Just a few random thoughts:

-The IDSA has a helpful document for thinking about the Diabetic Foot. The field continues to evolve and how we treat osteomyelitis will continue to evolve with it. 2012 Infectious Diseases Society of America Clinical Practice Guideline for the Diagnosis and Treatment of Diabetic Foot Infectionsa

-There is substantial overlap between diabetic foot ulcers and manifestations of peripheral vascular disease. Do everything you can to know what manifestations of PVD look and sound like ie. ischemic ulcerations, claudication, rest pain, critical limb ischemia etc. The go to consult for these is going to vary based on locality. Vascular surgery owned this where I trained, interventional cardiology seems to get first dibs where I am now. Overly broad statement, but all foot interventions fail without perfusion. I have been consulted a lot for cellulitis that was critical limb ischemia.

-Patients with diabetic foot ulcerations have a strong tendency to neglect their feet and their overall health. Their foot problem is often simply a manifestation of their underlying disease. Unfortunate anecdote, I had a hospitalist ask for my podiatry service to admit a patient because he had no history. The patient ultimately had a BKA and was transferred to another hospital for open heart surgery during a lengthy hospitalization.

-A great way to get a patient off of empiric antibiotics is a well collected deep tissue culture as soon as possible during the admission. Advances in microbiology sometimes seem to produce definitive cultures within 24 hours - anecdotally a better sample produces diagnosis more quickly. If you haven't seen a foot ulceration before they have a strong tendency to be on locations of pressure with heavy overlying callus with "intradermal hemorrhage" within them. The callus is often "closed" so you aren't actually within the wound bed. Its very easy to be intimidated by the presentation and simply rub a swab across the surface of the ulceration or callus. An ideal culture is deep and an even better culture takes actual tissue from within the wound bed. Obviously this is going to be a comfort issue and you may prefer for your ultimate surgeon to do this.

-Many patients with diabetic ulcerations have been under care at wound healing centers or podiatrists offices for years. These patients are frustrated. They have been debrided, put in casts, made non-weight bearing sometimes for years, done hyperbarics, taken regular antibiotics producing resistant bacteria, etc. Its been a miserable experience for them. They'll have repetitive amputations, hospitalization, had their toes removed 1 by 1. Not sure its as bad as dialysis, but its bad (and many are on dialysis). They are often depressed, worn down by the process etc. Many have seen their family members die in the exact same manner. Often the doctor treating them has told them its going to be healed next week, for a year. They've healed the ulcerations only to recur them in a week. In short, it sucks. Sometimes surgeons can come up with clever ways to resolve their ulcerations. Other times our interventions prolong their misery. Sometimes a definitive amputation really can be the fastest way for a patient to get back to living.

Good luck! You'll do great.
 
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The medical knowledge will come with time, but the practical knowledge was harder especially since as a med student or sub-I you don't deal with the pages for some of the most common stuff.

I would try to understand:
-Pain control in the hospital
-BP management in the hospital
-What to do for constipation, what bowel regimens exist
-What hardware your patients have in (lines, catheters, devices, etc)
-Methods for supplemental oxygen delivery
-Understanding anti-coagulation and DVT prophylaxis
-Understanding types of IV fluids and rates for different patients
-Dosing/managing Insulin and learning what supplies might be needed outpatient
-Intake/Output, fluid status
-Anti nausea/vomiting medications
-Dealing with agitation/anxiety in hospital patients
-Work-up for new onset fever

These are all relatively straightforward topics (generally) and will be 95%+ of the pages you will get as an intern. You'll get these pages infinitely more often than urgent pages for rapid responses or crashing patients. As a Sub-I or med student you think about the big picture and rarely the minor day to day stuff your interns and residents just take care of and don't discuss on rounds (most of the list above).

Personally I wouldn't worry about the hard medical stuff now, that will come with time, experience, and uptodate. But learning the basics of the hospital and how to care for these frequent issues will make intern year much easier.
 
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The medical knowledge will come with time, but the practical knowledge was harder especially since as a med student or sub-I you don't deal with the pages for some of the most common stuff.

I would try to understand:
-Pain control in the hospital
-BP management in the hospital
-What to do for constipation, what bowel regimens exist
-What hardware your patients have in (lines, catheters, devices, etc)
-Methods for supplemental oxygen delivery
-Understanding anti-coagulation and DVT prophylaxis
-Understanding types of IV fluids and rates for different patients
-Dosing/managing Insulin and learning what supplies might be needed outpatient
-Intake/Output, fluid status
-Anti nausea/vomiting medications
-Dealing with agitation/anxiety in hospital patients
-Work-up for new onset fever

These are all relatively straightforward topics (generally) and will be 95%+ of the pages you will get as an intern. You'll get these pages infinitely more often than urgent pages for rapid responses or crashing patients. As a Sub-I or med student you think about the big picture and rarely the minor day to day stuff your interns and residents just take care of and don't discuss on rounds (most of the list above).

Personally I wouldn't worry about the hard medical stuff now, that will come with time, experience, and uptodate. But learning the basics of the hospital and how to care for these frequent issues will make intern year much easier.
Checking ekg’s with anti-emetics. EKG basics in general
 
-Pain control in the hospital (opiates - morphine stacks with bad kidneys, fentanyl/dilaudid don't but fentanyl is a quick off and you can't send a patient home on dilaudid)
-BP management in the hospital (AB/CD - AB= sick vasculopaths, CD= clinic, Alpha/ACE/Afterload, Beta-Blockers, Calcium Channel, Diuretics, If you have to start something in the hospital, start Nifedipine but DONT use the short or instant release, use extended release, convert to Amlodipine on DC, ACE/ARB/Thiazides make things more complication with the majority of hospital patients that have moving pieces, especially the old, sick. Don't use hydralazine PRN, starting a thiazide in the hospital is an admirable tribute to the JNC but stick with CCBs. You can try an ACE after checking the K-trend and check the UA to see if you can hit two birds with one stone. IF you're looking to reduce the BP acutely on the floor but no one wants to send the patient to the ICU to start a nitro gtt, your choices are oral labetalol or captopril. I prefer the latter but there are specific contraindications as most sick patients can't tolerate it long term).
-What to do for constipation, what bowel regimens exist (not as important, just use senna...docusate is terrible, finger impaction is underrated for obvious reasons, always give a bowel regimen with opiates)
-What hardware your patients have in (lines, catheters, devices, etc)
-Methods for supplemental oxygen delivery
-Understanding anti-coagulation and DVT prophylaxis (Heparin subQ BID is standard, you can do Lovenox subQ daily for stroke and cancer or also Heparin subQ TID).
-Understanding types of IV fluids and rates for different patients (no big difference, normal saline can lead to acidosis if used in excess, LR has been shown to have be better in acute pancreatitis, google the study if interested but don't linger on this point)
-Dosing/managing Insulin and learning what supplies might be needed outpatient (basal/bolus always, cut the dose in half when they're admitted or do the hospital, hypo is more dangerous than hyper. For tube feeds give them REGULAR insulin q6. A good goal is 160 for diabetics in the hospital. If the fasting sugars are high adjust the long acting regardless of what time you give it. If a daytime sugar is high, adjust the mealtime scheduled before the meal)
-Intake/Output, fluid status (volume=sodium content, pitting edema/lung sounds for overload)
-Anti nausea/vomiting medications (zofran is best but watch QTC, I like compazine for less effect, tigan is also an option but watch anti-dopa, steroids are an atypical second or third line)
-Dealing with agitation/anxiety in hospital patients (talk with them first, AVOID benzos in any severe COPD'er or old person, use oral if you can. Always start with Atarax first.)
-Work-up for new onset fever >101.6 (honestly, cost conscientiousness is great but if someone spikes a new fever or comes in for one and you're the one to investigate it, get the CXR, UA w/ reflex (to culture), blood cultures, and start empiric antibiotics afterwards overnight for the majority of sick/comorbid patients. Other things you can chase are skin/deeth and DVTs. Sometimes the CT isn't a bad idea if there's pelvic or abdominal pain.)
-Master the EKG/CXR
-Memorize DKA in case you're managing that (main things are to give the insulin drip until the gap closes afterwhich you overlap to subQ for two hours, change from normal fluids to sugar water when the glucose is <200.). Potassium is always a good thing unless its above 5.6ish. Bicarb if pH is <6.9. Most cases should be sent to the ICU not because they have physician needs but because they require closer nursing care unless the patient is really resolving or is about to get transitioned
-Altered Mental Status: Nurses are good at this but rule out hypoglycemia, opiate overdose (if it is, give narcan and they'll perk right up). Check the vitals and get an ABG to rule out hypercarbia/hypoxemia if your exam alone wasn't good enough to pick up on a blatant respiratory issue. Then look to metabolic causes like uremia/sepsis. When in doubt, always ask the ICU. You don't want to be the one who thought they could handle the patient on the floor, have them crump after shift change, and then be the intern blamed and deemed unsafe next morning. Welcome to CYA medicine (This is why doctors practice cover your ass medicine)
-"Rapid Response" Criteria: This is called different things at different institutions (rapid response, acute medical emergency team-AMET, etc). It's not a code blue which is ACLS/Cardiac Arrest. It's just a medical emergency that hospital policy-makers have decided warrants the attention of a physician at bedside such as hypotension, afib w/ rvr, tachycardia, etc. These criteria are different and different places and nurses will call you when these happen. Show up at the bedside, look up their MAR for the day, medical history, assess the chief complaint if the patient is alert, get an EKG, CXR, +/- ABG and figure out what's going on. Come up with approaches to these scenarios early because in a few months you'll be expected to manage them independently (while still asking for help when needed).
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OP, I think this is a fantastic topic survey. I've added topics in bold and annotated this list. The key to intern year is to NOT freeze yourself. You're going to hear all this stuff about cost-conscious care and subtleties about LR vs. NS from subspecialties but the point is if you see a problem do something. Stick to a method. Make sure your presentations are IN ORDER (#1 way to piss off attendings is to present in a way they don't like). Start with the plan first and then mold your history/exam to lead the attending to the plan. If you're even somewhat unsure, ALWAYS ask. Take advantage of the first three months because afterwards the patience of your senior/attending will diminish. The above is a very rough guide but it's a useful start.
 
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-Master the EKG/CXR
-Memorize DKA in case you're managing that (main things are to give the insulin drip until the gap closes afterwhich you overlap to subQ for two hours, change from normal fluids to sugar water when the glucose is <200.). Potassium is always a good thing unless its above 5.6ish. Bicarb if pH is <6.9. Most cases should be sent to the ICU not because they have physician needs but because they require closer nursing care unless the patient is really resolving or is about to get transitioned
-Altered Mental Status: Nurses are good at this but rule out hypoglycemia, opiate overdose (if it is, give narcan and they'll perk right up). Check the vitals and get an ABG to rule out hypercarbia/hypoxemia if your exam alone wasn't good enough to pick up on a blatant respiratory issue. Then look to metabolic causes like uremia/sepsis. When in doubt, always ask the ICU. You don't want to be the one who thought they could handle the patient on the floor, have them crump after shift change, and then be the intern blamed and deemed unsafe next morning. Welcome to CYA medicine (This is why doctors practice cover your ass medicine)
-"Rapid Response" Criteria: This is called different things at different institutions (rapid response, acute medical emergency team-AMET, etc). It's not a code blue which is ACLS/Cardiac Arrest. It's just a medical emergency that hospital policy-makers have decided warrants the attention of a physician at bedside such as hypotension, afib w/ rvr, tachycardia, etc. These criteria are different and different places and nurses will call you when these happen. Show up at the bedside, look up their MAR for the day, medical history, assess the chief complaint if the patient is alert, get an EKG, CXR, +/- ABG and figure out what's going on. Come up with approaches to these scenarios early because in a few months you'll be expected to manage them independently (while still asking for help when needed).
-------

OP, I think this is a fantastic topic survey. I've added topics in bold and annotated this list. The key to intern year is to NOT freeze yourself. You're going to hear all this stuff about cost-conscious care and subtleties about LR vs. NS from subspecialties but the point is if you see a problem do something. Stick to a method. Make sure your presentations are IN ORDER (#1 way to piss off attendings is to present in a way they don't like). Start with the plan first and then mold your history/exam to lead the attending to the plan. If you're even somewhat unsure, ALWAYS ask. Take advantage of the first three months because afterwards the patience of your senior/attending will diminish. The above is a very rough guide but it's a useful start.
This is great
 
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