What about Marines?

[proudtobeaTxAg]

Ok, I want to know more about the Marine options. can you specifically go into a Marine HPSP? or do you go into the Navy and get a chance at going into the Marines? I'm joining ROTC next year and I'm looking ahead to joining the same ROTC as HPSP for the future. I hope this all makes since and thank you for replying, I greatly appreciate it!

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[Navy Dive Doc]

There are no Marine Corps physicians, you have to be Navy. However, as a Navy Doc, you can adhere to USMC Regs and will be allowed to wear the USMC uniform while assigned in a Marine billet. That doesn't mean you can't do USMC ROTC followed by Navy HPSP, once a rifleman...
DD

 

[GMO_52]

The one caveat being that both Navy and USMC ROTC may expect you to complete a tour or two prior to letting you apply to med school.

 

[proudtobeaTxAg]

Thanks ya'll for replying and your answers raised more questions for me; Can I still do Marine reserves during med school or do they have to be Navy? Also, can I do my residency and active duty at a Marine-base hospital? And, would I go to Marine Officer Candidate School or Navy for officer training? thanks everyone, ya'll have been a great help!

 

[iwakuni_doc]

proudtobeaTxAg:

The ROTC to med school route can be fairly tricky...NROTC is of the purpose of preparing future Navy & Marine Corps officers, not necessarily doctors. As such, be prepared to be told that you'll have to be in another job for a couple of years prior to being allowed to go to med school - either on HPSP or to USUHS.

If you choose the USMC option through the NROTC - you'll go through their OCS & TBS before your first duty station. If you've done NROTC, you won't have to repeat any officer training via OIS for the HPSP program (to the best of my knowledge).

As for the reserves during medical school: when you get the HPSP scholarship, you're commissioned as an Ensign in the United States Medical Corps, Inactive Ready Reserves. You can't hold 2 commissions - if you were previously a Navy/USMC line officer (even of a higher rank), you will be changed to O-1 USNR Medical Corps. I've known some folks who chose to stay in the USMC reserves during medical school (both enlisted & officer) but not through the HPSP program - they used the GI Bill & reserve pay towards medical school & kept active in their former fields (infantry & aviation). If anyone else knows of Marines who were able to go through med school differently - I'd like to know because I frequently have young Marines coming to me for advice about college/med school/etc.

Active-duty residency is at a Naval Hospital - most programs are at the big 3: San Diego, Bethesda, Portsmouth. Family Practice residencies are at Pensacola, Jacksonville, Camp Pendleton, and Bremerton. Pendleton is the only USMC base, although you will see a lot of Marines at San Diego with Miramar & MCRD in the area.

 

[proudtobeaTxAg]

thanks iwakuni_doc, that was some great information! Ok, so one more question (for now); so what are the "perks" of being in the Marines while doing HPSP? It sounds like to me the only thing different between Navy and Marines for HPSP purposes is getting to wear a Marine uniform while assigned to a Marine billet (what is that by the way?) and following Marine Corps regulations. Is that all? Sorry, that was 3 questions. Thanks everyone!

 

[aznwangsta]

I think what they meant was, you can only choose one route. One, you take a Navy HPSP, in which case you get a med school scholarship from the Navy and wear a Navy uniform, adhere to Navy rules, etc. Marines aren't involved at this point. After internship, THEN you can ask for a billet (assignment) to the Marines, at which time you have the option of wearing the Marine uniform, etc. OR Two, NOT take the Navy HPSP but use general educational benefits (GI Bill, etc) for medical school, serve as an officer the Marine Reserve, wear the Marine uniform, etc. Then internship, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, that's my understanding.

aznwangsta

 

[aznwangsta]

Iwakuni_doc:

Those reservists you mentioned, would they then serve in their USMC fields, even as a physician? Like if they were ever called up for mobilization, and say their field was Infantry- would they get called into action as an Infantryman? I'm considering enlistment in the Marine Reserve as an option before medical school, so I'd be interested to know.

aznwangsta

 

[iwakuni_doc]

aznwangsta:
You're entirely correct about the Navy vs USMC in your 1st email.

As to your other question: I knew of 2 individuals who went through medical school while in the USMC reserves:

1st - an elisted Marine(Sgt or SSgt, I can't remember) who simply enjoyed being a Marine - basic infantry if I remember correctly. His primary career aspiration was medicine, but didn't want to give up on his military service. He had no desire to switch to be a Navy doctor.

2nd - a non-traditional student who had been a pilot in the USMC & continued to do that as a reservist - don't know all of the details of how he managed to do that...it was before I became a flight surgeon. He was in the same situation as the other guy - wanted to be a civilian doc rather than a Navy doc, while still maintaining his military service in another occupation.

Sorry if I don't have more specific details, but these guys weren't in my med school class & just got the basics from them.

proudtobeaTxAg:
I think aznwangsta did a great job of explaining the distinction of Navy vs USMC. As to the perks of working with the Marines - a lot of it has to do with the kind of patient population & operational environment that you want to work in...it's hard to explain, but spend any amount of time on a USMC base & then on a Navy base...you'll almost immediately see what I'm talking about & know if it's for you or not.

 

[Homunculus]

Originally posted by iwakuni_doc
proudtobeaTxAg:

The ROTC to med school route can be fairly tricky...NROTC is of the purpose of preparing future Navy & Marine Corps officers, not necessarily doctors. As such, be prepared to be told that you'll have to be in another job for a couple of years prior to being allowed to go to med school - either on HPSP or to USUHS.

just to add to what iwakuni said, the ROTC to medschool thing *is* a bit of a crapshoot. you are virtually guaranteed an educational delay for medical school *if* you get in on your first chance. this is the method i used and i wouldn't recommend it. if you can get into an early decision program, ie one that will reserve a seat for you after your sophomore year, you will be in a much better position if you are ROTC. my stress level when i was waiting for an accceptance was a bit high as you can imagine, lol.

when i was accepted to medschool i had already been accessioned (where you get your branch assignment within the army/navy/air force) and had my OBC and first follow-on uit assignment made. the ed delays are easy to get and relatively simple to fill out-- the catch is getting in that one chance you have. otherwise you will be waiting a while before you'll be able to apply again.

also, ROTC commitments are treated like HPSP commitments-- you have to apply to military residencies, and all the rules and regulations that apply to HPSP apply to them as well-- excpet they don't get tuition, stipends, etc.

 

[Swiper]

Originally posted by Homunculus
just to add to what iwakuni said, the ROTC to medschool thing *is* a bit of a crapshoot. you are virtually guaranteed an educational delay for medical school *if* you get in on your first chance. this is the method i used and i wouldn't recommend it.

I agree that it isn't the recommended route. And, at least with the Navy, the educational delay isn't necessarily a guarantee if you do get into medical school - it depends on the number of applicants in a given year. There are only 20 or so slots that are granted to Navy ROTC graduates for immediate medical school attendance. Some years there are many more than 20 students applying, and so some cannot go directly to med school. Other years (last year, for example) there are less than 20 folks interested, so essentially if you got into med school you were allowed to go.

Currently, Marine Corps option ROTC students are not considered for a medical school delay.

 

[Homunculus]

Originally posted by Swiper The Fox
I agree that it isn't the recommended route. And, at least with the Navy, the educational delay isn't necessarily a guarantee if you do get into medical school - it depends on the number of applicants in a given year. There are only 20 or so slots that are granted to Navy ROTC graduates for immediate medical school attendance. Some years there are many more than 20 students applying, and so some cannot go directly to med school. Other years (last year, for example) there are less than 20 folks interested, so essentially if you got into med school you were allowed to go.

Currently, Marine Corps option ROTC students are not considered for a medical school delay.

ouch. even bigger reasons not to go navy, lol. that's odd that they would only allow a certain number of ed delay slots. ROTC medical students are bargains-- they get the same benefit from the student (4 years AD physician) with less cost (they pay for undergrad instead of medical $chool).

go army!

 

[Swiper]

Originally posted by Homunculus
ouch. even bigger reasons not to go navy, lol. that's odd that they would only allow a certain number of ed delay slots. ROTC medical students are bargains-- they get the same benefit from the student (4 years AD physician) with less cost (they pay for undergrad instead of medical $chool).

go army!

I think it's due to different "training philosophy" perspectives. The Army seems much more flexible about a ROTC grad's chosen field (intel, supply support, infantry, law, etc.) The Navy, on the other hand, expects all ROTC grads to be warfighters - surface warriors, submariners or aviators. There used to be a direct path into intel, supply and cryptology from NROTC (and I'm guessing going straight to med school wasn't as limited as well), but that went away in the mid- to late-90's.

 

[proudtobeaTxAg]

Thanks ya'll for the ROTC info, it was much needed. Another thing I'm wondering about is are you guranteed a Marine billet if you go that direction or is it iffy? I don't want to go Navy HPSP if I have to do all Navy and just have a chance at Marines but if I am sure that I will get to do some Marine things then I probably will go that direction. Thank you everyone for replying and such, it's much easier then going to a recruiter and asking these questions because then they never let you go!

 

[Navy Dive Doc]

You will have no problem getting a marine GMO billet, there are as many of those as shipboard billets, and most interns do not want them. My internship year, there were 25 billets at Camp Lejeune alone ( I was east coast, so they preferentially send us to east coast billets). All you had to do was call the detailer and ask to go to lejeune, you were there. From the DMO standpoint, only 3 Marine billets, Recon out of Pendleton, Lejeune and Okinawa, so much less likely. Quite a few FS jobs. For internship, if oyu want FP you can go Green, otherwise, train at one of the big three. After residency is anyone's guess, because then you are essentially working in the hospital. Unless, you do FP. They are much more likely to be in battalion surgeon jobs and higher level marine corps operational jobs. But then, of course, you have to be an FP
DD

 

[proudtobeaTxAg]

Ok, I know this probably sounds stupid but what is FP, FS, and DMO? thanks.

 

[aznwangsta]

FP=Family Practice/Physician
FS=Flight Surgeon
DMO=Diving Medical Officer

aznwangsta

 

[Dr. Wexler]

How about becoming a navy officer in OCS, then applying to medical school after that? What if you did marine corps OCS, it seems like it wouldn't be in the best interest of the Marine Corps to let a Marine go during his active duty commitment to go to med school and switch services to Navy, or a I wrong?

Also, what are the active duty service commitments for officers commisioned into the marines or navy through OCS?


Thanks

 

[Globus P]

How about becoming a navy officer in OCS, then applying to medical school after that? What if you did marine corps OCS, it seems like it wouldn't be in the best interest of the Marine Corps to let a Marine go during his active duty commitment to go to med school and switch services to Navy, or a I wrong?

Also, what are the active duty service commitments for officers commisioned into the marines or navy through OCS?

If you go through OCS, you are selected for a particular community in the Navy before you start. Ex, say you are selected to go through pilot or flight officer training, you will sign a contract prior to starting OCS stating you will commence pilot/flight officer training upon your successful completion of OCS and that your will incur XX years of obligation. By simply finishing OCS and being commissioned, you incur a 4 year obligation. Once you finish pilot training, you incur a 8 year obligation, with flight officer being a 6 year obligation. Your OCS and aviation commitments run concurrently. You can subsitute the various communities & commitments in the above summary. Those selected to attend OCS, they are selected to fill a billet in that specific community, not simply to be an officer.

Another example, I knew a guy who signed a contract to be an pilot. He went to OCS and "changed" his mind, he wanted to now become a SEAL. So when he started pilot training, he thought he could just quick and get transfered over to SEAL training. Unfortunately he was wrong, he did quit pilot training, and got discharged from the Navy since he wasn't going to be able to fulfill his commitment and the SEALs didn't want any flight training failures or quitters. So be boned himself out of both training opportunites by trying something that made sense to him, but he didn't know the policies or read his contract close enough. His source of info was his buddies, not anybody in the know. Sad story.....

If OCS commissioned grad fails out of the various Navy training programs, currently the Navy is discharging them (like in my last example). Previously, or when this new policy ceases, OCS commissioned officers who fail out of their perspective training are required to fulfill their initial OCS commitment of 4 years. So you've bought 4 years at a minimum.

Commitments:
Pilots: 8 years
Naval Flight Officers: 6 years
Nuke officers: 5 years
Surface Warfare Officers (non0nuke): 4 years
Intel, supply, crypto, special warfare/operations, etc: 4 years

According to the various Navy instructions that dictate eligibility for active duty officers to go to either HPSP or USUHS, it states you must complete your initial commitment before eligible to apply. So, you cannot just go to OCS and then apply for medical school. That's not how it works, you must fulfill the contract commitment that brought you into the Navy first.

Therefore if you want to go to med school, simply apply to the HPSP or USUHS right out of college or as a civilian. But don't try to do it the OCS way, you'll end up doing something else for at least 4 years before you can apply to med school.

Clear as mud I know. I have some personal experience in this (worked in the office that dealt with these issues), so this info comes from a reliable source.

 

[Dr. Wexler]

Globus,

Thanks for the info. I was under the impression (at least in the marines in the past) that you went to OCS to see if you could make it as an officer. While there, you came up with a wish list of occupational specialties you wanted. Then after OCS (assuming you passed) you would be assigned an occupation.

Are you saying that in the Navy you have picked your occupation before arriving at OCS? (I'm talking about non-aviation; I know aviation is different.)

 

[Globus P]

Globus,

Thanks for the info. I was under the impression (at least in the marines in the past) that you went to OCS to see if you could make it as an officer. While there, you came up with a wish list of occupational specialties you wanted. Then after OCS (assuming you passed) you would be assigned an occupation.

Are you saying that in the Navy you have picked your occupation before arriving at OCS? (I'm talking about non-aviation; I know aviation is different.)

Regarding the Marine Corps, you are correct. They call it TBS, The Basic School, their version of officer training and it's 6 months long. They don't know their speciality until some point near the end.

For Navy OCS, you are designated to a community before you start (part of the recruiting process), and you stay that way throughout OCS. So all the OCS folks know what community they'll be in and what follow-on training their undergo before starting OCS. Aviation is handled no different than Supply Officers, Intel Officers, etc, in regards to OCS, just your commitments are longer (as the training is longer and costs much more....jets and je fuel are expensive).

Remember, the USMC doesn't make docs, the Navy does, who then "service" the Marine Corps. So I imagine that if you become a USMC officer, and later wish to become a Navy doc, you'll most likely have to finish up your Marine Officer commitment, get discharged, and then go HPSP, USUHS or FAP. I'm sure it's been done before.

 

[sdonian]

Hi
I am a sophomore in college, soon to be junior. I am a Marine Option Midshipmen in the NROTC program, but most likely to switch to the PLC program which is another way to become an officer. Anyways, after I serve as an officer, I want to become a civilian doctor. I want to know when should I take the MCAT's, before my service or after. Also would the GI bill pay for med school. I am currently trying to get a BA in biology. My GPA is not that good and if I wanted to boost it up, would I have to have to retake classes at my undergrad or just take classes at a local community school. Any help or advice in answering my questions and giving me more insight would be much appreciated.

 

[TX_NFS]

Hi
I am a sophomore in college, soon to be junior. I am a Marine Option Midshipmen in the NROTC program, but most likely to switch to the PLC program which is another way to become an officer. Anyways, after I serve as an officer, I want to become a civilian doctor. I want to know when should I take the MCAT's, before my service or after. Also would the GI bill pay for med school. I am currently trying to get a BA in biology. My GPA is not that good and if I wanted to boost it up, would I have to have to retake classes at my undergrad or just take classes at a local community school. Any help or advice in answering my questions and giving me more insight would be much appreciated.

For all MCAT / undergrad questions, I would recommend posting your questions again in the various pre-med forums here. You will most likely get a lot more feedback (and more quickly) than you would here.


About when to take the MCAT, from AAMC's website (http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/miscfaq.htm):
"11. How long are MCAT scores valid?
In general, MCAT scores are valid for 3 years. However, this time frame varies from school to school. So you may wish to contact the school(s) of your choice to find out their policies concerning MCAT scores."

I would go with taking the MCAT after your initial service. If you took it now, chances are if you apply when you get out (4+ years later? Dunno which community you're aiming for), your MCAT scores would be invalid.
For GPA, last I knew the AMCAS (Allopathic Med School Application) includes the grades from all of your undergrad courses, regardless of which institution it may be at. If you were going solely for the grade, then I suppose community college would not hurt... though again, the pre-med forums should give you tons more insight.
For the GI Bill, no personal experience, but a post in this thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1148293&postcount=5) says that you can use it towards med school.

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

For all MCAT / questions, I would recommend posting your questions again in the various pre-med forums here. You will most likely get a lot more feedback (and more quickly) than you would here.


About when to take the MCAT, from AAMC's website (http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/miscfaq.htm):
"11. How long are MCAT scores valid?
In general, MCAT scores are valid for 3 years. However, this time frame varies from school to school. So you may wish to contact the school(s) of your choice to find out their policies concerning MCAT scores."

I would go with taking the MCAT after your initial service. If you took it now, chances are if you apply when you get out (4+ years later? Dunno which community you're aiming for), your MCAT scores would be invalid.
For GPA, last I knew the AMCAS (Allopathic Med School Application) includes the grades from all of your undergrad courses, regardless of which institution it may be at. If you were going solely for the grade, then I suppose community college would not hurt... though again, the pre-med forums should give you tons more insight.
For the GI Bill, no personal experience, but a post in this thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1148293&postcount=5) says that you can use it towards med school.

Now that's what I call an informative response. No B.S. Just the answer to the question(s). Rock On TX NFS.

 

[BKK]

As far as the "Marine" option with the Navy, the only Marine uniform that you would actually wear would be the Marine BDUs/cammies. All other uniforms would be strictly US Navy, since you are in fact a Navy assett detailed to a USMC location to provide health care. I believe that you would have to look the part of a squared away Marine, but you are still a Navy physician.

I worked with many Navy dentists and physicians in Operation Arctic Care 07 who were assigned to a USMC unit. They had Marine reg haircuts and cammies, but they were still navy personnel.

The Marine Corps "contracts" out for its healthcare needs to focus on being the awesome fighting force they are.

BK

 

[megadon]

As far as the "Marine" option with the Navy, the only Marine uniform that you would actually wear would be the Marine BDUs/cammies. All other uniforms would be strictly US Navy, since you are in fact a Navy assett detailed to a USMC location to provide health care. I believe that you would have to look the part of a squared away Marine, but you are still a Navy physician.BK

Not entirely true, but should be. If you are assigned to a Marine unit, you are authorized to wear ALL their uniforms. However, you didn't go through boot or OCS/TBS, and in my mind will never be a true Marine (and my wife is one and agrees). You are authorized to wear all their uniforms, so you could interview for your residency in alphas or deltas, (I bring this up because a crazy doc who I am glad is gone did it in a Marine uniform).

My personal take, for work purposes, I would reather wear cammie jammies, they are supposed to be more effective and hide you better. For formal appearnces, well, I'm still Navy, I don't share the common experience of all Marines, and it kind of discredits them to wear their uniform.

 

[studentdocg]

I've always wanted to join the Marines, and I'm getting that itch again. I'm a first-year medical student taking on lots of debt, so active duty isn't really an option. I don't want to do military medicine. I don't even know if I would have time to complete the training this summer and fulfill my commitments after my initial training without interfering with med school. But does anybody think it would be a good/bad idea? Would this help/hurt my chances when trying to match? I'm sure they'd be impressed by it as an accomplishment, but would they see it as a competing interest to their own? I'm just thinking that a residency program probably wouldn't like to see one of their residents plucked away, possibly without warning. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[FutureNavyFP]

I've always wanted to join the Marines, and I'm getting that itch again. I'm a first-year medical student taking on lots of debt, so active duty isn't really an option. I don't want to do military medicine.

The whole plan has "Bad Idea" written all over it. You want to be a marine but you don't want to do military medicine? If you are having second thoughts about medicine, get out early. You are only increasing our debt as time goes on. If you are seeking ways to look more competitive for residencies, there are better things to do than enlisting in the marines. Good luck.

 

[Perrotfish]

I've always wanted to join the Marines, and I'm getting that itch again. I'm a first-year medical student taking on lots of debt, so active duty isn't really an option. I don't want to do military medicine. I don't even know if I would have time to complete the training this summer and fulfill my commitments after my initial training without interfering with med school. But does anybody think it would be a good/bad idea? Would this help/hurt my chances when trying to match? I'm sure they'd be impressed by it as an accomplishment, but would they see it as a competing interest to their own? I'm just thinking that a residency program probably wouldn't like to see one of their residents plucked away, possibly without warning. Any thoughts would be appreciated

Sweet dancing moses, this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. If you want to join the Marines, drop out of medical school and join the Marines. If you go with the reserves, besides the twenty odd weeks it would take you just to get your basic training and MOS training done, you'll almost undoubtedly end up missing multiple years of either medical school or residency when they send you to the Middle East. If AD 'isn't really an option' than the reserave are not an option either. You know the biggest objection to military medicine? That you can be forced into a GMO tour that interupts your training. Now you're volunteering for a much longer, and more unplanned, interuption in your medical training, with no medical-ish activities to at least sort of keep your skills in shape.

And could you even do the weekend drill? I mean, you don't really reliably get weekends off from year 3 through end of residency. And you'd be REAL popular if you used your military obligation to force your colleagues to work the Friday night shifts. Especially with the working parents who feel that they might want to see their kids awake once in a while.

If you're suffering from a low badass quotient, join your local police reserves. They have training that you can actually do over the summer, and an obligation you can actually plan around (and if the disaster is bad enough that they call you up, you're medical school is going to be shut down). Or better yet, just watch UFC and punch yourself in the chest until you're feeling masculine enough to go back to doing prostate exams.

And BTW no civilian residency selection committee will think that your being in the reserves improves your application. I'm not sure they can legally discriminate against your for it, but it definitely can't help. Do you have any idea how much misery it would cause the program if you disappeared as a Senior Resident?