We must do better

[Hybrocure]

I’d prefer not having PAs or NPs involved with podiatry at all with the job market already being terrible. Those jobs could go to another podiatrist. Thankfully this problem fixes itself cuz NPs and PAs hate feet…and let’s be real here. There’s a lot of NPs and PAs who look down on podiatrists.

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[bloxxeeey]

90% of our pathology doesn't need 3 years of residency training and 4 years of schooling. Yet we have fellowships now. I recently found out dentist have to pay to do fellowships or are unpaid. Maybe podiatry will move in that direction so the director can add "ancillary income"

 

[HardRoadPaved]

90% of our pathology doesn't need 3 years of residency training and 4 years of schooling. Yet we have fellowships now. I recently found out dentist have to pay to do fellowships or are unpaid. Maybe podiatry will move in that direction so the director can add "ancillary income"

Whats the ROI of being a specialist in dentistry vs. general dentistry? Def doesnt show in DPM land

 

[Feli]

I’d prefer not having PAs or NPs involved with podiatry at all with the job market already being terrible. Those jobs could go to another podiatrist. Thankfully this problem fixes itself cuz NPs and PAs hate feet…and let’s be real here. There’s a lot of NPs and PAs who look down on podiatrists.

I don't think he's saying there is need for NP/PA for podiatry (there are way too many DPMs).

I read it more as that we are even more oversupplied than we realize. Two thirds of the patients I saw today could have seen a midlevel.
We are inefficient because we need to have work to do. Associate DPMs (not midlevels) fill roles because the associates are so cheap.
We have about 20k practicing DPMs... we'd be fine with 10k... we'd be fine with 6k-8k with some using midlevels more.

That is half the problem: much of podiatry work can be done by PA/NP with $100k school debt and $125k salary. A good bit can be done by RN with $50k debt and $75k salary... yet that work is being done by DPM with $300k school debt and $125k salary.

 

[Feli]

90% of our pathology doesn't need 3 years of residency training and 4 years of schooling. Yet we have fellowships now. I recently found out dentist have to pay to do fellowships or are unpaid. Maybe podiatry will move in that direction so the director can add "ancillary income"

I have predicted this in the past:

Podiatry fellowships with large groups/hospitals where the fellow is not paid (or even pays for the fellowship) with the relative expectation that they will get a mediocre podiatrist job ~200k with that group afterward (or the connections for jobs gained from the fellowship attendings are worth the lost year).

We have many of those fellowships now... but the fellow is paid a token rate. That may change.

Saturation at its finest.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

I don't think he's saying there is need for NP/PA for podiatry (there are way too many DPMs).

I read it more as that we are even more oversupplied than we realize. Two thirds of the patients I saw today could have seen a midlevel.
We are inefficient because we need to have work to do. Associate DPMs (not midlevels) fill roles because the associates are so cheap.
We have about 20k practicing DPMs... we'd be fine with 10k... we'd be fine with 6k-8k with some using midlevels more.

That is half the problem: much of podiatry work can be done by PA/NP with $100k school debt and $125k salary. A good bit can be done by RN with $50k debt and $75k salary... yet that work is being done by DPM with $300k school debt and $125k salary.

Case and point. Im busy. I need a NP/PA for help. Not the hospital to hire another podiatrist. With a little training the NP/PA can become competent with injections, basic toenail procedures, wound care etc. Plus they can assist in the OR and see my post ops. You don’t need another podiatrist for that. I don’t want another podiatrist.

It’s getting scary out there kids….

 

[Bluecollarmed]

I think the main problem is underestimating how many of the good paying jobs are not posted. When I was looking there were at least 4 hospital jobs all offering 250k+ for 2 years then transition to RVUs that were in the interviewing process purely on word of mouth or selecting prior "cold call CV" sent in. None of them were posted, all in one state. There are also increasingly more posted hospital jobs of varying quality. It depends what are you looking for. We have also seen an uptick in PA/NP working with podiatrists in the hospital setting.

 

[Feli]

I think the main problem is underestimating how many of the good paying jobs are not posted. When I was looking there were at least 4 hospital jobs all offering 250k+ for 2 years then transition to RVUs that were in the interviewing process purely on word of mouth or selecting prior "cold call CV" sent in. None of them were posted, all in one state. There are also increasingly more posted hospital jobs of varying quality. It depends what are you looking for. We have also seen an uptick in PA/NP working with podiatrists in the hospital setting.

Lol, I don't disagree. Good podiatry jobs do exist, but I think the DPM hospital job opportunities are significantly harder in podiatry than any MD/DO surgical specialty.

It's good that you went to one of the well-connected residencies to get those job leads.
I was lucky to have that and did some hospital interviews coming out of training also (didn't get the ones I tried, others were in places I didn't want to go).

I definitely can't blame many hospital pod jobs (and even good group jobs) for doing it that way. Any of them that have publicly posted a podiatry job (as most MD/DO jobs do) have paid the price and likely won't make that mistake of being bombed with hundreds of mostly bogus applicants again. A lot of the better DPM employed positions are smart to just go through local and alumni and current doc networks. There are plenty of good pods available that way.

...And I bet you might find out the limit for PM messages of SDN inbox pretty soon also "yo, man... saw your post about 250k jobs"?

 

[Forcewielder]

...And I bet you might find out the limit for PM messages of SDN inbox pretty soon also "yo, man... saw your post about 250k jobs"?

 

[NatCh]

Here’s a pic of where I’ll be living! (Just kidding )

I'd live there...

 

[Poddocc]

Since Biden is cancelling loans for people who went to school that show low financial gain. Does that include podiatry? Lmao

 

[Hybrocure]

Since Biden is cancelling loans for people who went to school that show low financial gain. Does that include podiatry? Lmao

It should honestly. Compare our professions cost for education to ROI as a new grad on average and it’s unbelievable. You could argue useless college degrees can be done cheaper at state universities, community college etc.

But podiatry? You’re in the hole no matter where you go. We make less than we did 15 years ago.

 

[Forcewielder]

Since Biden is cancelling loans for people who went to school that show low financial gain. Does that include podiatry? Lmao

I'd definitely say they practice predatory recruitment techniques. They grossly exaggerate the job outlook, pay, demand, etc and they don't accurately advertise the increases in your cost of tuition and subsequently cost of attendance for the full 4yrs.

Side note, I was listening to the Dave Ramsey show this week and someone called in saying their husband had 320k in student loans and was a foot and ankle surgeon. Dave didn't believe that his salary of 180k was accurate and she argued it was actually a competitive pay. I couldn't help but laugh because of how she said foot and ankle surgeon rather than podiatrist and how he couldn't believe the pay. Yep, we take put obscene loans to be able to call ourselves foot and ankle surgeons and get paid 1/3 of what an ortho makes.

 

[heybrother]

Did you know that 100% of people who identify as "a foot and ankle surgeon" but make $180K are podiatrists.

 

[GreenHousePub]

I was listening to the Dave Ramsey

I found your first problem.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

I'd definitely say they practice predatory recruitment techniques. They grossly exaggerate the job outlook, pay, demand, etc and they don't accurately advertise the increases in your cost of tuition and subsequently cost of attendance for the full 4yrs.

Side note, I was listening to the Dave Ramsey show this week and someone called in saying their husband had 320k in student loans and was a foot and ankle surgeon. Dave didn't believe that his salary of 180k was accurate and she argued it was actually a competitive pay. I couldn't help but laugh because of how she said foot and ankle surgeon rather than podiatrist and how he couldn't believe the pay. Yep, we take put obscene loans to be able to call ourselves foot and ankle surgeons and get paid 1/3 of what an ortho makes.

Do you have a link to that? I want it....badly

 

[BubbaWub]

Do you have a link to that? I want it....badly

Me too. I have been looking up on youtube, but haven't had any luck.

 

[Feli]

Do you have a link to that? I want it....badly

Ditto... I'd offer a $100 (or 4 pairs PowerSteps) reward for that episode link. Hilarious but also very sad the state of DPM jobs and ROI...

Edit... I found it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Listen to or Watch The Ramsey Show (click the April 17th "Don't Rationalize Stupid Money Decisions" and go to 29min mark for the audio... diff mark on the video )

It's 34min mark in video:


Insanity. Gotta love the income reaction to podiatry wage, "that sounds LOW!!!" (it is low AF for any other "surgeon")
Very sad stuff to be going backwards on student debt and downsizing is her only idea. Their only hope is that the oversized mortgage creates a bit of a forced savings plan. Crazy how ppl pile so much car/house debt. They will probably never be out of debt with combo house+ student debt 3x or 4x income and other assorted debt on consumer depreciating stuff.
Dave: "Stop investing for retirement, stop going out to eat, stop going on vacation. Write it all down. Honey, you're just stuck."

"If you can't buy it twice, you can't afford it once." -Jiggaman

 

[BubbaWub]

Ditto... I'd offer a $100 (or 4 pairs PowerSteps) reward for that episode link. Hilarious but also very sad the state of DPM jobs and ROI...

Edit... I found it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Listen to or Watch The Ramsey Show (click the April 17th "Don't Rationalize Stupid Money Decisions" and go to 29min mark for the audio... diff mark on the video )

It's 34min mark in video:


Insanity. Gotta love the income reaction to podiatry wage, "that sounds LOW!!!"
Very sad stuff. Crazy how ppl pile so much car/house debt. They will never be out of debt with debt 3x income.

Lmao

 

[Forcewielder]

34 min mark on youtube

 

[heybrother]

34:16 - Wendy is in Phoenix.

 

[heybrother]

damn it.

 

[Forcewielder]

damn it.

Is it wrong that when she said her 3 kids had suicidal ideations my immediate thought was "That's because their dad is a podiatrist..."

 

[Feli]

Is it wrong that when she said her 3 kids had suicidal ideations my immediate thought was "That's because their dad is a podiatrist..."

The idea of having a stay at home partner and upper/high middle class lifestyle is a myth for income level of 80%, probably 90%, of podiatrists. It is a pipe dream.

Many will not even live a very high lifestyle WITH a partner who is a good or excellent earner and/or few/no kids. That is just the DPM income and ROI.

I wish more ppl realized that (preferably before pod school, but at least afterwards).

The fact is this: assuming one does not have a ton of family money (no student loans and/or PP startup/buy funds) or excellent luck for a top flight DPM employ job or direct family path to being PP owner after residency, you will need a financially competent partner for highish standard of living and/or frugal habits as a single income DPM/family. It's simple math $400k invest for typically avg pod making less than $200k/yr return is just not a lot after loan pay and taxes. It crashes and burns when trying to live in a big house with cars, doctor lifestyle (depending on MD/DO incom). This video is a perfect example.

I know a very small handful of DPMs who support a family on just their income. I know far more who have barely put a dent in their loans or have ballooned their overall debt with consumer debt. It sure did not work for me when I tried fresh out of residency to support a partner who made very little... and we tried to live a pretty good lifestyle (dining, trips, etc).

The ones who can do it are all owners of PP or hospital/group employ, and some don't live a very high standard (esp did not soon after residency). Again, anyone doing solo breadwinner DPM well are the 10-20% (family member was an established DPM and/or RRA cert and/or family assist... and they're now 300k+ income, etc). They are not the much more common 80-90% of DPMs with student debt and associate gig. The average pre-pod or resident who expects to be solo breadwinner will very likely be disappointed, bickering with spouse/partner about money, and in the situation in the Dave Ramsey call. It's too bad.

 

[Forcewielder]

The idea of having a stay at home partner is a myth for income level of 90% of podiatrists. It is a pipe dream.

I wish more ppl realized that (preferably before pod school, but at least afterwards).

The fact is this: assuming one does not have a ton of family money (no student loans and/or PP startup/buy funds) or excellent luck for a top flight DPM employ job or direct family path to being PP owner after residency, you will need a financially competent partner for highish standard of living and/or frugal habits as a single income DPM/family. It's simple math $400k invest for typically avg pod making less than $200k/yr return is just not a lot after loan pay and taxes. It crashes and burns when trying to live in a big house with cars, doctor lifestyle (depending on MD/DO incom). This video is a perfect example.

I know a very small handful of DPMs who support a family on just their income. All are owners of PP or hospital employ, and some don't live a very high standard (esp did not soon after residency). Again, they are the 10% (family member was an established DPM and/or RRA cert... now 300k+ income, etc)... not the 90% of DPMs. The average pre-pod or resident who expects to be solo breadwinner will be in the situation in the Dave Ramsey call. It's too bad.

I'd push back on that a little. Part of the reason I even listen to Ramsey is to not lose perspective. There are people that call in that never make 6 figures that are net worth millionaires by their 30s. There are single moms making it work while bringing home only 2.5k/month. That's just to say that the biggest thing is avoiding lifestyle creep and not to allow friends and family to say I "deserve" the nicer things because I'm a doctor. You can be the sole income earner with an associate salary of 120k and 300k of loans, but you won't be living like a doctor. There are worse ways to make a living.

 

[billBOB213]

Man, I don’t check SDN for a month or so and then come back to this gem

Freaking hilarious, can’t wait to listen to this
#podLife

Edit: Dave’s response is hilarious as they can’t even fathom a surgeon making only 180k
This family’s situation, not hilarious. Unfortunate that we go thru all this work/pain/sweat and then get such a small payoff, generally speaking.
I wish them the best


Oh, and at 40:50 mark, Dave says to just have hubby pick up extra shifts until he can make the 180k get to 280k smh
What he doesn’t realize is this dude is probably some poor associate already working crazy hours and there is only so much time in a day-especially with their busy life with 4 kids that have special needs. Yikes, I feel for this fam

 

[BubbaWub]

Man, I don’t check SDN for a month or so and then come back to this gem

Freaking hilarious, can’t wait to listen to this
#podLife

Edit: Dave’s response is hilarious as they can’t even fathom a surgeon making only 180k
This family’s situation, not hilarious. Unfortunate that we go thru all this work/pain/sweat and then get such a small payoff, generally speaking.
I wish them the best


Oh, and at 40:50 mark, Dave says to just have hubby pick up extra shifts until he can make the 180k get to 280k smh
What he doesn’t realize is this dude is probably some poor associate already working crazy hours and there is only so much time in a day-especially with their busy life with 4 kids that have special needs. Yikes, I feel for this fam

I think Dave meant to say "pick up extra nursing home shifts."

He also said something about an MD. I don't think he realizes the situation for podiatry.

 

[Forcewielder]

I think Dave meant to say "pick up extra nursing home shifts."

He also said something about an MD. I don't think he realizes the situation for podiatry.

I've considered writing in so he can learn about podiatry so he can rant about it lol I think I'll look into doing that now

 

[heybrother]

Is it wrong that when she said her 3 kids had suicidal ideations my immediate thought was "That's because their dad is a podiatrist..."

I turned it off when she said she owed $480K on the house, but then I went and listened to the whole thing and found out she thought she could get $1.1 million for the house. And yeah, the kid thing was rough to hear. I was sort of hoping this thing would be a big laugh, but it really just makes me pity them. Hearing other people's stories usually just makes me end up feeling grateful for my wife and kids and life. I semi-routinely have to remind myself - you were born on 3rd base, you didn't hit a triple. Their biggest problem doesn't sound like their debt - it sounds like their children. What's causing their children to be a mess - I can't say though the youtube side-panel comments didn't have anything nice to say about Wendy's anxiety.

I honestly wish that lady would post here - I'm curious to see if we could give a more podiatry specific advice.

 

[Hybrocure]

Thanks for more proof that Dave doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

I’d sooner lay down and rot before I go on a beans and rice diet as a doctor. Debt is what it is. I’m not going to ruin my life to pay it off asap.

WW3 is gonna hit before I pay this off.

The unfortunate truth is there is no debt expert familiar with how crazy podiatry debt is for ROI and all these MD/DO student debt tips don’t apply to us.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Ditto... I'd offer a $100 (or 4 pairs PowerSteps) reward for that episode link. Hilarious but also very sad the state of DPM jobs and ROI...

Edit... I found it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Listen to or Watch The Ramsey Show (click the April 17th "Don't Rationalize Stupid Money Decisions" and go to 29min mark for the audio... diff mark on the video )

It's 34min mark in video:


Insanity. Gotta love the income reaction to podiatry wage, "that sounds LOW!!!" (it is low AF for any other "surgeon")
Very sad stuff to be going backwards on student debt and downsizing is her only idea. Their only hope is that the oversized mortgage creates a bit of a forced savings plan. Crazy how ppl pile so much car/house debt. They will probably never be out of debt with combo house+ student debt 3x or 4x income and other assorted debt on consumer depreciating stuff.
Dave: "Stop investing for retirement, stop going out to eat, stop going on vacation. Write it all down. Honey, you're just stuck."

"If you can't buy it twice, you can't afford it once." -Jiggaman

This video makes me sick, sad and disgusted. The reality is a lot of people feel the same way as this couple. Commit to a medical specialty thinking you will be a surgeon which will lead to a better lifestyle, thinking that you are necessary in medicine etc.

You get through the podiatry charade and can’t land a hospital gig and end up working for a mustache that wants you to follow his/her protocols, telling you how the dress, etc making 100-125k base with a crappy bonus structure.

But don’t worry podiatry says diabetes is on the rise…

Next time somebody calls in it will be fellowship trained foot and ankle surgeon…but really podiatrist.

 

[GreenHousePub]

The idea of having a stay at home partner and upper/high middle class lifestyle is a myth for income level of 80%, probably 90%, of podiatrists. It is a pipe dream.

Wendy from Phoenix is no where near upper middle class if their household income is 180 and they have 4 kids.

 

[podiatryresident]

43 y.o foot and ankle surgeon makes 180k/year! I can't stop laughing with their reaction

 

[wakaflocka88]

Wow….43…..this is truly disturbing. The desperation in her voice is really sad. We need to burn this profession down from the top to the very bottom.

Just wait, probably more ABPM and ABFAS burner accounts incoming telling us different of how podiatry has financially enriched them beyond their imagination.

 

[MoostashPod]

So happy to see Dave Ramsey and his reaction (without realizing it's a podiatrist) to the ridiculousness that's called podiatry. Makes my day.

I think someone needs to go to the Dave Ramsey debt free stage, do a debt free scream, admit they're a podiatrist, and tell everyone don't do it.

 

[PODIATRYCRAZE]

Wow….43…..this is truly disturbing. The desperation in her voice is really sad. We need to burn this profession down from the top to the very bottom.

Just wait, probably more ABPM and ABFAS burner accounts incoming telling us different of how podiatry has financially enriched them beyond their imagination.

That caller was 95% ABFAS

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Thanks for more proof that Dave doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

I’d sooner lay down and rot before I go on a beans and rice diet as a doctor. Debt is what it is. I’m not going to ruin my life to pay it off asap.

WW3 is gonna hit before I pay this off.

The unfortunate truth is there is no debt expert familiar with how crazy podiatry debt is for ROI and all these MD/DO student debt tips don’t apply to us.

Dave is just like the general public. He does not understand what podiatry really is. If he actually dissected the profession he probably would not recommend it to anyone from a ROI perspective.

I had my wife watch the video and she was sad for the wife calling in. She said why doesn’t he get another job. I said there are no other jobs except more crappy private practice deals or hospital jobs that get flooded with applications.

She was like ohhhh followed by a long silence.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

That caller was 95% ABFAS

I was thinking AACFAS

 

[footshazam]

As a 3rd year reading these comments makes me sad. I’m still kind of on the fence about leaving because the horror stories just get to you sometimes and I sometimes think should I just abandon ship now……………………..

 

[heybrother]

 

[Forcewielder]

As a 3rd year reading these comments makes me sad. I’m still kind of on the fence about leaving because the horror stories just get to you sometimes and I sometimes think should I just abandon ship now……………………..

I'd have a hard time with the sunk cost you have already. If you're at a school with an MD or DO program as well maybe see about transferring and keeping some of the credit? But I wouldn't give up 2yrs and the cost if you're in top quarter of your class. If you're lower half, well maybe you should consider it seriously. Good luck man

 

[Hybrocure]

I'd have a hard time with the sunk cost you have already. If you're at a school with an MD or DO program as well maybe see about transferring and keeping some of the credit? But I wouldn't give up 2yrs and the cost if you're in top quarter of your class. If you're lower half, well maybe you should consider it seriously. Good luck man

Plenty of top quarter of the class people working the same associate jobs as the bottom of the class.

That being said you’re already 3 years in and the damage is done just see it through

 

[Adam Smasher]

This is a really interesting question. I think we know what we would tell a pre-pod who has doubts about podiatry (don't do it, podiatry will always be waiting for you if you want to come back to it) and we know what we would tell a resident who has doubts about podiatry (stick it out, you may as well graduate and get licensed before re-thinking your career) but what would you say to a current student? Definitely depends on individual circumstances. Definitely worth its own thread. I feel like writing something long-form so I'll come back to this topic.

 

[MicroPod]

Anyone who only wants to work in large cities or otherwise desirable areas should probably not do podiatry because those areas are beyond saturated. If you are willing to go anywhere I think opportunity to do well increases quite a bit. 300k+ debt is still a pretty hard sell for this profession in its current state.

 

[PMG03470]

I do want to say while I think a lot of things regarding the debt is true, having a nice house really isn’t so bad if you live frugally. It’s all in what you want for your life. I have about 300k in loans and on the SAVE plan based on the calculator I will pay the least over time and it will be forgiven at 25 years. My house is 560k, at the rate we are paying it we will have paid it off in 12 years while still paying my loans and putting a good chunk in retirement and savings. Then we will have about 5 years after the house is paid off to save up for the tax bomb when my loan is forgiven. I only make about 175k a year… it’s doable my friends but if you want to go out to fancy dinners and fancy trips all the time, well it may not be. But I don’t like the fact everyone on here saying getting a nice house is a mistake. If you do it right it will work out just fine.

 

[Hybrocure]

I do want to say while I think a lot of things regarding the debt is true, having a nice house really isn’t so bad if you live frugally. It’s all in what you want for your life. I have about 300k in loans and on the SAVE plan based on the calculator I will pay the least over time and it will be forgiven at 25 years. My house is 560k, at the rate we are paying it we will have paid it off in 12 years while still paying my loans and putting a good chunk in retirement and savings. Then we will have about 5 years after the house is paid off to save up for the tax bomb when my loan is forgiven. I only make about 175k a year… it’s doable my friends but if you want to go out to fancy dinners and fancy trips all the time, well it may not be. But I don’t like the fact everyone on here saying getting a nice house is a mistake. If you do it right it will work out just fine.

Same boat here as you. I think unless you’re bringing in over 250 the SAVE plan is the way to go.

 

[unusualonion]

This is a really interesting question. I think we know what we would tell a pre-pod who has doubts about podiatry (don't do it, podiatry will always be waiting for you if you want to come back to it) and we know what we would tell a resident who has doubts about podiatry (stick it out, you may as well graduate and get licensed before re-thinking your career) but what would you say to a current student? Definitely depends on individual circumstances. Definitely worth its own thread. I feel like writing something long-form so I'll come back to this topic.

Haven't checked the podiatry forums since my last AMA regarding being accepted to DO school. But this seems like a good idea and I am happy to contribute to that long form post regarding students if asked!

In all honesty, my personal position and opinion is to tell anyone to leave before they get to residency. The debt is scary as is leaving. But spending my working years killing myself for 170 plus a *wink wink* chance at a bonus after arbitrary collections is just not worth it. I managed to get good grades in pod school while re-studying for the MCAT so its possible, and like AdamSmasher said, its definitely dependent on peoples circumstances.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

I do want to say while I think a lot of things regarding the debt is true, having a nice house really isn’t so bad if you live frugally. It’s all in what you want for your life. I have about 300k in loans and on the SAVE plan based on the calculator I will pay the least over time and it will be forgiven at 25 years. My house is 560k, at the rate we are paying it we will have paid it off in 12 years while still paying my loans and putting a good chunk in retirement and savings. Then we will have about 5 years after the house is paid off to save up for the tax bomb when my loan is forgiven. I only make about 175k a year… it’s doable my friends but if you want to go out to fancy dinners and fancy trips all the time, well it may not be. But I don’t like the fact everyone on here saying getting a nice house is a mistake. If you do it right it will work out just fine.

Where do you live that 560k buys you a nice house? Not being an ass. Genuine question.

Everyone has a different definition of nice.

I saw recently 1 bedroom; 1 bath condo in the heart of little Italy in San Diego costs 600k.

 

[Feli]

I do want to say while I think a lot of things regarding the debt is true, having a nice house really isn’t so bad if you live frugally. It’s all in what you want for your life. I have about 300k in loans and on the SAVE plan based on the calculator I will pay the least over time and it will be forgiven at 25 years. My house is 560k, at the rate we are paying it we will have paid it off in 12 years while still paying my loans and putting a good chunk in retirement and savings. Then we will have about 5 years after the house is paid off to save up for the tax bomb when my loan is forgiven. I only make about 175k a year… it’s doable my friends but if you want to go out to fancy dinners and fancy trips all the time, well it may not be. But I don’t like the fact everyone on here saying getting a nice house is a mistake. If you do it right it will work out just fine.

Nice house is technically not a mistake from the investment standpoint (assuming it keeps its equity and there are buyers - aka borrowers - to take it someday when you need to sell).

The problem is, big mortgage payment cripples the budget... can't pay off the house fast, have to pay low/minimum on other debt if mortgage eats most of the monthly budget. You drown in interest. It is hard to have free cash for opportunities (start own biz, investment, retirement, solid EF, etc) when in perma-debt. The house/mortgage is an awesome thing IF you can afford it with budget space to spare (pay it down early, pay other debt, invest/retire).
Interest just crushes. For your example, you will basically pay 850k for a 560k house (if you can indeed pay it off in 12yrs)...
and you will pay on 400k++ in minimum payments on 300k student loans (assuming $20k/yr for 20yrs IBR and then they're eventually forgiven).

The caveat, for most ppl working podiatry, is that you don't know you'll even be at the same job in 12yrs. You don't know in 3 years.
If your income goes up, your minimum pays on student loans goes away. If you have to move, your mortgage plan goes away.
People get fed up with pod PP groups, PP groups cut them or shave their pay, PP groups will grind more work for same pay, a fair amount of PP groups are getting sunk or severely wounded by graft clawbacks right now. Even podiatry MSG or hospital jobs are not immune to changes; many well-trained docs on SDN and elsewhere have changed jobs quite a few times. Our job market is terrible. I personally worked for 4 PPs, one MSG, and one hospital, and one house call gig all in my first 10 years out. No joke. Sure, you're employed today, and that could change.

Moving and forcing a quick sale of a mortgage house can be anywhere from fairly good to disastrous... but any forced asset sale (house, stocks, etc) is very often during an overall economic downturn. At the end, you know what's best for you, though. I hope it works well (the job and the area/mortgage).

...I also concur that $560k is seldom a nicer or newer house with the inflation of real estate. It's a fairly good one where I live, but I'm pretty rural (no Walmart, CVS, TBell, etc)... and my partner paid ours which cost a bit over 600k off in under 3yrs (I just pay rent to her, and the utility bills). I would never dream of borrowing on a lux house or car myself until I finish my loans off (and catch up on retirement invest that I dwindled a bit to start solo PP). Jmo

 

[Forcewielder]

Nice house is technically not a mistake from the investment standpoint (assuming it keeps its equity and there are buyers - aka borrowers - to take it someday when you need to sell).

The problem is, big mortgage payment cripples the budget... can't pay off the house fast, have to pay low/minimum on other debt if mortgage eats most of the monthly budget. You drown in interest. It is hard to have free cash for opportunities (start own biz, investment, retirement, solid EF, etc) when in perma-debt. The house/mortgage is an awesome thing IF you can afford it with budget space to spare (pay it down early, pay other debt, invest/retire).
Interest just crushes. For your example, you will basically pay 850k for a 560k house (if you can indeed pay it off in 12yrs)...
and you will pay on 400k++ in minimum payments on 300k student loans (assuming $20k/yr for 20yrs IBR and then they're eventually forgiven).

The caveat, for most ppl working podiatry, is that you don't know you'll even be at the same job in 12yrs. You don't know in 3 years.
If your income goes up, your minimum pays on student loans goes away. If you have to move, your mortgage plan goes away.
People get fed up with pod PP groups, PP groups cut them or shave their pay, PP groups will grind more work for same pay, a fair amount of PP groups are getting sunk or severely wounded by graft clawbacks right now. Even podiatry MSG or hospital jobs are not immune to changes; many well-trained docs on SDN and elsewhere have changed jobs quite a few times. Our job market is terrible. I personally worked for 4 PPs, one MSG, and one hospital, and one house call gig all in my first 10 years out. No joke. Sure, you're employed today, and that could change.

Moving and forcing a quick sale of a mortgage house can be anywhere from fairly good to disastrous... but any forced asset sale (house, stocks, etc) is very often during an overall economic downturn. At the end, you know what's best for you, though. I hope it works well (the job and the area/mortgage).

...I also concur that $560k is seldom a nicer or newer house with the inflation of real estate. It's a fairly good one where I live, but I'm pretty rural (no Walmart, CVS, TBell, etc)... and my partner paid ours which cost a bit over 600k off in under 3yrs (I just pay rent to her, and the utility bills). I would never dream of borrowing on a lux house or car myself until I finish my loans off (and catch up on retirement invest that I dwindled a bit to start solo PP). Jmo

Agreed with this.

I am a bit of a pessimist, but the idea of paying for 25yrs on a loan and just hoping that they get forgiven at the end by our super duper effective federal government is a bit too trusting for me. What's to say the administration doesn't change and they do away with the program? Obviously the trend is moving towards more forgiveness, but it's still a risk and you're putting your financial testicles in uncle Sam's palm.

And yes, Feli nailed it. You're giving yourself golden handcuffs. You're directly disincentivized from making too much and losing that "benefit". I've gladly taken the loan interest forbearance, but I'm paying the loans back at this point and saying to hell with any further promises of loan forgiveness. This latest attempt is even more likely than the last to be struck down.

As for housing, I'm of the mindset that you can't go too wrong with buying a house. You have to have a living situation and as long as you're not building a mansion you should always be able to appreciate your investment if you decide to sell. Our market has exploded since 2021. Houses that would have sold in 2021 for 400k are now selling for 700+. A cookie cutter starter home in a new development community here will run you 470k for a basic 2000sqft 3 bed 2 bath and the larger 3500sqft 4 bed 4 bath is 800k. Crazy times...