VA PM&R Programs Pros and Cons

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Gubernaculum11

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Would anyone mind explaining the pros and cons of VA based programs such as UCLA and UT San Antonio? I've heard a couple PM&R attendings talk negatively about VA programs but they didn't give much detail as to why they felt that way. Any information would be appreciated.

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tip of the iceberg here
you get a lot of paid days off. your clinic no show rate is high. you work with a complex population with multiple comorbidities. you get to see living history.
CPRS, the EMR from 1978. ancillary staff are less than ideal...
 
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I don't belive UT San Antonio is actually VA-based--just maybe VA heavy. UCLA (actually VA Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System, with just a loose UCLA affiliation) is the only program in the country with any actual VA-sponsored residencies (psych and PM&R). To my understanding, other VAs will pay for a number of resident salaries/positions (maybe even a majority), but VAGLAHS is the only one where the VA is actually running the show.

Either way, I didn't interview at UT San Antonio--but it sounded like an interesting program. If I recall it's a categorical program and you actually do 6 months of rehab you intern year (the con being you do six months of IM/intern stuff in your 2nd year, but I think that could actually be beneficial). I believe it also has a Polytrauma center, which is unique to just 5 VAs in the country. A big pro/con is it's in Texas--people tend to feel very strongly about Texas one way or the other.

I did interview at VAGLAHS/UCLA--I liked the program. Very happy residents and easily one of the nicest program directors in the country. It's pretty MSK/pain-heavy (they're up-front about that) so the inpatient training isn't quite as solid as many/most other locations (a common problem with all the CA programs except Stanford). You do rotate at quite a few sites (many are non-VA), and that can (and will) mean a really miserable commute for many rotations... But seriously, the UCLA residents were among the happiest in the country of the places I interviewed.

I actually sought out programs with a strong VA training--you tend to get better amputee and SCI (chronic >acute) training at those locations (mostly because of volume). Obviously places like RIC attract patients from a huge area and will be really strong in those areas as well, but there are a lot of injuries that are more common/unique to veterans that you won't see as often in other programs. Rehab is one thing the VA does really well and is investing in (along with psych). I swear every program with a major VA I interviewed at had a newly-constructed SCI center... I've also yet to meet an unhappy VA PM&R doc--they don't get paid much (relatively speaking), but they have great hours and seem to really enjoy what they do.

I would argue CPRS (VA EMR) is a pro--sure it's ugly (the DOS of the EMR-world), but it's simple and very efficient/user-friendly. It's main purpose is to convey information for the healthcare team--not for billing. I love Epic and all (the other EMR we use), but Epic is really a billing software first (that's how it actually started).

Cons are the VA bureaucracy (it can take a while to get your PIV badge, etc...), ancillary staff are sometimes not as good, (but plenty really take a lot of pride in what they do), silly referrals from the mid-levels since PCP's are often in short supply, the food in the cafeteria is pretty lousy (but sandwiches are pretty comparable to Subway, so they're still decent), some of the infrastructure is pretty old (but also some super new). If you don't like psych or social issues then add that to the con list (I thought they're pros--more to learn). You'll certainly get some malingering--it is the VA.

I think a complex population/multiple comorbidities is a pro for residency training (once again, the whole point is to learn, and patients in general are only getting less healthy), but certainly it can be annoying.

In my experience the average VA patient is much more appreciative and respectful of me and the work I do than those at the community or university hospitals I've rotate through in several states between medical school and residency. VA patients in general are very happy with the VA system (once they get into it--obviously there's a problem with access as seen in the news lately). And taking care of a WWII vet is often one of the most memorable experiences you can have--there aren't many left, but all of the ones I've worked with are as tough as steel and extremely appreciative of everything we do. They just don't make people like they used to...

Still--most rehab patients in general really appreciate what we do for them--there's a reason they come back to visit and say thank you. You can get great training at programs without a VA, but I think a VA is a strong asset to PM&R residency training.
 
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I don't belive UT San Antonio is actually VA-based--just maybe VA heavy. UCLA (actually VA Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System, with just a loose UCLA affiliation) is the only program in the country with any actual VA-sponsored residencies (psych and PM&R). To my understanding, other VAs will pay for a number of resident salaries/positions (maybe even a majority), but VAGLAHS is the only one where the VA is actually running the show.

Either way, I didn't interview at UT San Antonio--but it sounded like an interesting program. If I recall it's a categorical program and you actually do 6 months of rehab you intern year (the con being you do six months of IM/intern stuff in your 2nd year, but I think that could actually be beneficial). I believe it also has a Polytrauma center, which is unique to just 5 VAs in the country. A big pro/con is it's in Texas--people tend to feel very strongly about Texas one way or the other.

I did interview at VAGLAHS/UCLA--I liked the program. Very happy residents and easily one of the nicest program directors in the country. It's pretty MSK/pain-heavy (they're up-front about that) so the inpatient training isn't quite as solid as many/most other locations (a common problem with all the CA programs except Stanford). You do rotate at quite a few sites (many are non-VA), and that can (and will) mean a really miserable commute for many rotations... But seriously, the UCLA residents were among the happiest in the country of the places I interviewed.

I actually sought out programs with a strong VA training--you tend to get better amputee and SCI (chronic >acute) training at those locations (mostly because of volume). Obviously places like RIC attract patients from a huge area and will be really strong in those areas as well, but there are a lot of injuries that are more common/unique to veterans that you won't see as often in other programs. Rehab is one thing the VA does really well and is investing in (along with psych). I swear every program with a major VA I interviewed at had a newly-constructed SCI center... I've also yet to meet an unhappy VA PM&R doc--they don't get paid much (relatively speaking), but they have great hours and seem to really enjoy what they do.

I would argue CPRS (VA EMR) is a pro--sure it's ugly (the DOS of the EMR-world), but it's simple and very efficient/user-friendly. It's main purpose is to convey information for the healthcare team--not for billing. I love Epic and all (the other EMR we use), but Epic is really a billing software first (that's how it actually started).

Cons are the VA bureaucracy (it can take a while to get your PIV badge, etc...), ancillary staff are sometimes not as good, (but plenty really take a lot of pride in what they do), silly referrals from the mid-levels since PCP's are often in short supply, the food in the cafeteria is pretty lousy (but sandwiches are pretty comparable to Subway, so they're still decent), some of the infrastructure is pretty old (but also some super new). If you don't like psych or social issues then add that to the con list (I thought they're pros--more to learn). You'll certainly get some malingering--it is the VA.

I think a complex population/multiple comorbidities is a pro for residency training (once again, the whole point is to learn, and patients in general are only getting less healthy), but certainly it can be annoying.

In my experience the average VA patient is much more appreciative and respectful of me and the work I do than those at the community or university hospitals I've rotate through in several states between medical school and residency. VA patients in general are very happy with the VA system (once they get into it--obviously there's a problem with access as seen in the news lately). And taking care of a WWII vet is often one of the most memorable experiences you can have--there aren't many left, but all of the ones I've worked with are as tough as steel and extremely appreciative of everything we do. They just don't make people like they used to...

Still--most rehab patients in general really appreciate what we do for them--there's a reason they come back to visit and say thank you. You can get great training at programs without a VA, but I think a VA is a strong asset to PM&R residency training.
This is such a comprehensive answer and I agree! Thanks for sharing.
 
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Would anyone mind explaining the pros and cons of VA based programs such as UCLA and UT San Antonio? I've heard a couple PM&R attendings talk negatively about VA programs but they didn't give much detail as to why they felt that way. Any information would be appreciated.


we are not VA based at UT San Antonio, we are through UT Health San Antonio with all the other programs and only do 40-50% of rotations at the VA, better research your programs more
 
we are not VA based at UT San Antonio, we are through UT Health San Antonio with all the other programs and only do 40-50% of rotations at the VA, better research your programs more

Yikes, thats some good recruitment there, it is hard to get reliable information about most programs online. and if you are spending half of your residency at the VA, it is probably good to know what being a resident at the VA is like!

We spend about a 3rd of our time at the VA. Good place to learn as the patients are usually pretty good, and the pace is slow. Volume is not as high there though, and it is not real-world so at a program exclusively at the VA you may have a rough transition starting work outside the VA.
 
NYU-Rusk is 1/3 Va, 1/3 Private and 1/3 city hospital they each have there own flavor. my experience was more Autonomy at VA with better teaching whereas sometimes the glorious private rehab rotations you felt like a PA
 
we are not VA based at UT San Antonio, we are through UT Health San Antonio with all the other programs and only do 40-50% of rotations at the VA, better research your programs more
Haha! I posted this a few years ago as an uninformed 2nd year med student. My bad.
 
Does the VA/UCLA program still exist? I can't find a website.
 
I couldn't find an actual department website, but yes, it still exists. Here's their resident instagram account. Hope this helps! Login • Instagram
 
I rotated 8 weeks at the va as a resident and I felt like it was a good experience, but I wouldn’t have wanted any more (unless maybe there was some inpatient).

As a resident you basically practice by yourself. In my experience, the Attendings didn’t really care about what was going on and didn’t want to be bothered. They also did the most incomplete emgs I ever saw. They would routinely only do NCS for radiculopathy.

Patient volume is low so you can take time to learn from each case. Some days I had 8 no shows and just sat in a room until the time was up.

I rotated with an interventional spine guy for one day and he literally only did 3 cases all day.
 
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We do some time at our local VA, mostly EMGs and SCI. It's great for downtime to read and learn, work on other projects, etc. The volume is low though, so I think if it were my only experience, it'd be inadequate. But definitely a gentle ride and we're happy to have some VA mixed in with more intensive experiences.
 
We do some time at our local VA, mostly EMGs and SCI. It's great for downtime to read and learn, work on other projects, etc. The volume is low though, so I think if it were my only experience, it'd be inadequate. But definitely a gentle ride and we're happy to have some VA mixed in with more intensive experiences.

Agree here. We had 1 VA rotation during residency and it was helpful mainly to study for SAEs, practice teaching (ultrasound to medical students), and do fellowship interviews. I wouldn't choose to train at a primarily VA program unless you're planning to practice at a VA later tbh.
 
Agree here. We had 1 VA rotation during residency and it was helpful mainly to study for SAEs, practice teaching (ultrasound to medical students), and do fellowship interviews. I wouldn't choose to train at a primarily VA program unless you're planning to practice at a VA later tbh.
I think this varies quite a bit by program. Our VA rotations were phenomenal. It was the top place to do EMGs--we had time despite packed clinics, and attendings really devoted to teaching EMGs. And the patients are much more likely to be of the "do what you gotta do doc" mindset compared to any other patients.

Our MSK and amputee clinics were great too. Really there wasn't a single bad clinic or rotation at our VA. The SCI rotations were rather light, but it did give a chance to see patients more often in therapy, or to run over to the clinics.

As far as I know UCLA is the only VA-based program. It's quite strong for outpatient/pain/MSK. I'm not sure if the inpatient training is that great--they were pretty clear when I interviewed that outpt was their primary focus.
 
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