UTSW put on blast

[operaman]

You are exactly the type of guy that employers love. The one who is willing to work harder for less compensation than the guy down the street.

Well you got the first part right at least. My employer definitely loves me! Having just been through an actual job search, landing an amazing job in a plush location, and paying for cutting edge comp survey data, I can say confidently you’d have to walk really really really really far down the street to find that other guy.

In a further twist of irony, this job wasn’t even posted and no other candidates were even considered. Wanna know how I found it? I volunteered to help out with an event for no extra pay back in residency where my now chairman was a guest. We started chatting over coffee and the rest is history!

I guess I could have stayed home, demanded extra pay for helping out on my own time. I could have viewed things as an us-vs-them zero sum game, refused to help the department that had done so much for me, and sat home smugly knowing I wasn’t some kind of chump. But then I would’ve never even known about this job, much less landed it amid the worst year for job searches when most of the country was on a covid hiring freeze.

This may come as a shock, but a good attitude and hard work ethic still go a long way. There’s also no truly great job you get without many other docs vouching for you behind the scenes.

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[operaman]

Which is why I don’t really care to post too much on Reddit and engage in that community. Reddit has always been more of an echo chamber of the consensus. Highly pro-medical student. Highly anti-midlevel to a fault IMO. Here everyone’s views are represented equally unless someone says something against ToS.

I’m sure about 50%+ of people here post there and it’s a great resource. I have learned more about current happenings and seen more resources on Reddit, but it’s harder to have a great discussion there in my opinion. Tons of great people on there though and I made an account to just engage with a few and frankly I think they can definitely be more helpful than the SDN crowd when it comes to advice for struggling students. That said, Reddit’s where I go to hear about things. SDN is where I come to discuss.

Well said.

I think when both Reddit and Twitter refer to SDN as “toxic,” it’s a good indication that this is where the grown ups are having actual adult discussions. No trigger warnings or safe spaces, no up/down votes burying views outside the groupthink, and nobody chasing likes/retweets for more social media clout.

This is actually one of the last places online where you can have tough nuanced conversations among people who strongly disagree.

We are probably a bit harsh with struggling students, but sometimes that tough love is exactly what’s needed. Otherwise you get the Twitterati who go to Caribbean schools and later spend a few match cycles tweeting about how unfair the system is toward whatever intersectional amalgam of oppression they claim to be.

 

[2021Doctor]

My understanding from looking at the reddit thread is that a large number of UTSW med students signed up for this. I think this is another example of the effects of a pass/fail Step 1 with students now looking for other ways to beef up their CVs.

 

[odyssey2]

More details from reddit on the UTSW "volunteer experience":
"The Med Students will work in a supportive fashion assisting the PCA’s & nursing staff with general tasks associated with the Unlicensed Clinical Staff role such as assisting with vital signs, transport, picking up trays, and other non-professional tasks identified by the Charge RN."



So the majority of this experience is pushing beds and picking up trays, and I'm going out on a limb here and assuming there won't be so much of an emphasis on teaching med students how to place IV lines or NG tubes. This is stuff a high school student could volunteer for. Can't see how you can spin this as an "educational opportunity" to all but the most naive med students.

 

[7331poas]

snip

Nah man, picking up food trays will lead to better career opportunities down the line!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Man y’all love to move goalposts. First it’s abusing med students by forcing them to work for free, then when that isn’t the case, it’s that the opportunity isn’t going to be worth their time so somehow the school is still evil.

 

[Lawpy]

Man y’all love to move goalposts. First it’s abusing med students by forcing them to work for free, then when that isn’t the case, it’s that the opportunity isn’t going to be worth their time so somehow the school is still evil.

I thought it was both initially

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I thought it was both initially

Maybe everyone should try remaining a little more neutral until they read actual details instead of just jumping on the “all med schools are abusive and exploitative” train.

 

[GoSpursGo]

More details from reddit on the UTSW "volunteer experience":
"The Med Students will work in a supportive fashion assisting the PCA’s & nursing staff with general tasks associated with the Unlicensed Clinical Staff role such as assisting with vital signs, transport, picking up trays, and other non-professional tasks identified by the Charge RN."



So the majority of this experience is pushing beds and picking up trays, and I'm going out on a limb here and assuming there won't be so much of an emphasis on teaching med students how to place IV lines or NG tubes. This is stuff a high school student could volunteer for. Can't see how you can spin this as an "educational opportunity" to all but the most naive med students.

... then again, don't do it There is a whole lot of "assuming" that it's garbage experience and that students are being pressured into doing this. But unless we actually hear that from students at the program, what are we talking about here?

 

[Lawpy]

Well you got the first part right at least. My employer definitely loves me! Having just been through an actual job search, landing an amazing job in a plush location, and paying for cutting edge comp survey data, I can say confidently you’d have to walk really really really really far down the street to find that other guy.

In a further twist of irony, this job wasn’t even posted and no other candidates were even considered. Wanna know how I found it? I volunteered to help out with an event for no extra pay back in residency where my now chairman was a guest. We started chatting over coffee and the rest is history!

I guess I could have stayed home, demanded extra pay for helping out on my own time. I could have viewed things as an us-vs-them zero sum game, refused to help the department that had done so much for me, and sat home smugly knowing I wasn’t some kind of chump. But then I would’ve never even known about this job, much less landed it amid the worst year for job searches when most of the country was on a covid hiring freeze.

This may come as a shock, but a good attitude and hard work ethic still go a long way. There’s also no truly great job you get without many other docs vouching for you behind the scenes.

I mean who are MS1s and MS2s trying to impress here exactly? Not really a unique thing if everyone is following the herd mentality. At least in your experience, you clearly took the initiative and really impressed the chairman, which is imo very different.

 

[Lawpy]

Maybe everyone should try remaining a little more neutral until they read actual details instead of just jumping on the “all med schools are abusive and exploitative” train.

Isn't this discussion based on what's provided by the reddit thread in OP? I'm also going by the details in the Reddit responses, several of whom apparently having a better understanding how UTSW operates than here on SDN and they're still condemning the school for that move

 

[GoSpursGo]

Isn't this discussion based on what's provided by the reddit thread in OP? I'm also going by the details in the Reddit responses, several of whom apparently having a better understanding how UTSW operates than here on SDN and they're still condemning the school for that move

Really? Which details are you referring to? Because most of the responses seem to be knee-jerk outrage performances rather than providing any additional information.

 

[operaman]

I mean who are MS1s and MS2s trying to impress here exactly? Not really a unique thing if everyone is following the herd mentality. At least in your experience, you clearly took the initiative and really impressed the chairman, which is imo very different.

I don’t think there’s any career impact for helping here; I didn’t think there would be when volunteering to help out my department either.

I was speaking more to the underlying mindset that looks for oppression and abuse in every corner and seeks above all else for personal advantage, versus one that that seeks to give generously and assume good faith in others. Yes, the latter carries a risk that someone may take advantage of me, but that’s ok.

I wonder if the faculty are at all confused by the blowback from the vocal minority. Surely every student at UTSW submitted a CV with thousands of hours volunteering and statements about their deep desire to care for suffering people. Then they come up with a way for these seemingly altruistic students to give back a bit in a time of National crisis only to have the Twitterati calling for the guillotine.

 

[odyssey2]

... then again, don't do it There is a whole lot of "assuming" that it's garbage experience and that students are being pressured into doing this. But unless we actually hear that from students at the program, what are we talking about here?

Except it clearly is a garbage experience, it’s right there in their own words. They’re pushing beds and emptying trays.
The hospital saw a cheap (free) source of untapped labor and exploited it, taking advantage of the naïveté of med students. It really is that simple sometimes.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Except it clearly is a garbage experience, it’s right there in their own words. They’re pushing beds and emptying trays.
The hospital saw a cheap (free) source of untapped labor and exploited it, taking advantage of the naïveté of med students. It really is that simple sometimes.

Then. Don't. Do. It.

 

[longhaul3]

This is terrible. I would feel so sad if I encountered a young med student working as a volunteer sub-unskilled nursing assistant so the nurses could have a higher percentage of uninterrupted lunch breaks. You pay a lot of money to go to med school and further your career. I haven't been there but I've heard that the new Parkland is a beautiful billion-dollar hospital. They can pay someone else to pick up the trays and answer call bells.

I disagree that any of this work will be really useful for a doctor in training. If you really want to learn how to get tough IVs and drop NG tubes, spend some time with the anesthesiologists. Don't come begging on your knees and start changing diapers while nurses are on break for the chance to shadow a routine IV placement. The time will come when you're a junior resident and you'll be forced into doing some of this stuff in the middle of the night, and there's not much you can do about it. But signing up for it as a med student shows a lack of self-respect.

I respect the nursing profession as a whole and really value many of the nurses I work with. But we work significantly harder than them and should not sign up to do their work for free.

Doctors are not nurses with more training. Medical students are not nursing students. They are certainly not nursing-assistant students.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Isn't this discussion based on what's provided by the reddit thread in OP? I'm also going by the details in the Reddit responses, several of whom apparently having a better understanding how UTSW operates than here on SDN and they're still condemning the school for that move

Y’all straight up ignored several statements that clarified the nature of it in an attempt to paint it as some sort of exploitation. And Reddit is famous for that kind of behavior. I read some of the comments and there doesn’t seem to be any actual accounts that contradict the voluntary nature of it.

 

[Lawpy]

Really? Which details are you referring to? Because most of the responses seem to be knee-jerk outrage performances rather than providing any additional information.

The OP of that thread appeared to be from UTSW when they posted that

Also i read this post that sounded like someone familiar with the hospital

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The OP of that thread appeared to be from UTSW when they posted that

Also i read this post that sounded like someone familiar with the hospital

I mean yeah, I get it. But the fact remains that the school isn’t making anyone do anything. They are asking for volunteers and explicitly telling people to only volunteer if they can do so without cutting into academics. There’s nothing abusive or exploitative about that.

The hospital being a ****ty place for nurses to work and now trying to get free labor is a different issue, and I totally agree with that post.

 

[Billiam95]

Anyone who volunteers their time so a multi-billion dollar hospital conglomerate can save $15/hr is a chump.

 

[Lawpy]

I don’t think there’s any career impact for helping here; I didn’t think there would be when volunteering to help out my department either.

I was speaking more to the underlying mindset that looks for oppression and abuse in every corner and seeks above all else for personal advantage, versus one that that seeks to give generously and assume good faith in others. Yes, the latter carries a risk that someone may take advantage of me, but that’s ok.

I wonder if the faculty are at all confused by the blowback from the vocal minority. Surely every student at UTSW submitted a CV with thousands of hours volunteering and statements about their deep desire to care for suffering people. Then they come up with a way for these seemingly altruistic students to give back a bit in a time of National crisis only to have the Twitterati calling for the guillotine.

Then the school/hospital should focus on getting nursing students, NP/PA students, CNAs etc to do the work. Altruism is a buzzword that hospitals like to use to exploit healthcare workers and students, and med students in desperate desire for some CV boosting things (even though this crap isn't CV boosting) will blindly plunge into it.

I know people stated the peer pressure is in their heads and not real but given the situation surrounding the community and school, it feels very real to be ostracized as a student for not helping along (which in turn has damaging implications for AOA, which does matter)

 

[Lawpy]

Anyone who volunteers their time so a multi-billion dollar hospital conglomerate can save $15/hr is a chump.

That's why the real focus should be volunteering in free clinics that actually need the help, which imo would be a much bigger CV booster than wasting time with menial tasks in a giant hospital system. But the herd mentality is real, and things presented as volunteering may actually not be truly volunteering and in fact mandatory

The school administrators have a lot of power. Very bad move to disappoint them by not taking this opportunity to show off altruism, compassion or other professionalism buzzwords.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Then the school/hospital should focus on getting nursing students, NP/PA students, CNAs etc to do the work. Altruism is a buzzword that hospitals like to use to exploit healthcare workers and students, and med students in desperate desire for some CV boosting things (even though this crap isn't CV boosting) will blindly plunge into it.

I know people stated the peer pressure is in their heads and not real but given the situation surrounding the community and school, it feels very real to be ostracized as a student for not helping along (which in turn has damaging implications for AOA, which does matter)

Lord. Please just stop.

 

[Lawpy]

Lord. Please just stop.

I'm being serious here. I know you and others like to insist it's just a volunteering opportunity and no one is being forced to do anything, but the fear of being ostracized for not doing this (which in turn affecting AOA, which in many places is hugely affected by popularity) is real.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Then the school/hospital should focus on getting nursing students, NP/PA students, CNAs etc to do the work. Altruism is a buzzword that hospitals like to use to exploit healthcare workers and students, and med students in desperate desire for some CV boosting things (even though this crap isn't CV boosting) will blindly plunge into it.

I know people stated the peer pressure is in their heads and not real but given the situation surrounding the community and school, it feels very real to be ostracized as a student for not helping along (which in turn has damaging implications for AOA, which does matter)

You seem to have no idea how AOA works. And no matter how many times you assert there is pressure on students to do this, there is no real evidence that is the case. Remember that schools are invested in getting good matches for their students because it reflects well on the school to have a food match list, and the first step to doing that is ensuring students do well academically. If I’m wrong then I’m wrong, but I just don’t buy that the school is pressuring students to give up studying time if the students don’t think they can afford it.

To be clear, I never in a million years would have done this activity, and agree it likely gives little benefit on your CV. But there is nothing exploitative about something that is voluntary.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'm being serious here. I know you and others like to insist it's just a volunteering opportunity and no one is being forced to do anything, but the fear of being ostracized for not doing this (which in turn affecting AOA, which in many places is hugely affected by popularity) is real.

That isn’t how AOA works.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

If I’m wrong then I’m wrong, but I just don’t buy that the school is pressuring students to give up studying time if the students don’t think they can afford it.

They literally said in the email to not volunteer if you need that time to study. This whole persecution complex among some med students is tiring.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm being serious here. I know you and others like to insist it's just a volunteering opportunity and no one is being forced to do anything, but the fear of being ostracized for not doing this (which in turn affecting AOA, which in many places is hugely affected by popularity) is real.

Dude that’s not how AOA works. At all. And the school is literally saying not to do this unless you want to and can afford to academically. There is zero pressure being put on the students. If any students are feeling pressured to volunteer because they are afraid it is going to affect their match, that is entirely imaginary and probably partly stems from threads like this where people are creating imaginary persecution and pressure.

 

[Lawpy]

You seem to have no idea how AOA works. And no matter how many times you assert there is pressure on students to do this, there is no real evidence that is the case. Remember that schools are invested in getting good matches for their students because it reflects well on the school to have a food match list, and the first step to doing that is ensuring students do well academically. If I’m wrong then I’m wrong, but I just don’t buy that the school is pressuring students to give up studying time if the students don’t think they can afford it.

To be clear, I never in a million years would have done this activity, and agree it likely gives little benefit on your CV. But there is nothing exploitative about something that is voluntary.

That isn’t how AOA works.

AOA is heavily school dependent, and in several places it suffers from the popularity effects based on the intangibles factor of it (what these intangibles are vary widely and are given more importance in P/F settings). There's also GHHS, which is widely dismissed on SDN as a complete popularity contest even though some PDs consider it (even though that PD survey gets slammed on here). Academics is important but intangibles also matter.

I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There's also GHHS, which is widely dismissed on SDN as a complete popularity contest even though some PDs consider it (even though that PD survey gets slammed on here).

This is completely irrelevant. GHHS being a popularity contest at many schools has zero bearing on AOA, and the PD survey is “slammed” on here because it has a very small response rate and lists things like GHHS along the same importance as speaking another language.

 

[Lawpy]

This is completely irrelevant. GHHS being a popularity contest at many schools has zero bearing on AOA, and the PD survey is “slammed” on here because it has a very small response rate and lists things like GHHS along the same importance as speaking another language.

I'm saying GHHS can still matter and volunteering can still factor into this. I don't know on what basis you're dismissing GHHS on.

 

[GoSpursGo]

AOA is heavily school dependent, and in several places it suffers from the popularity effects based on the intangibles factor of it (what these intangibles are vary widely and are given more importance in P/F settings). There's also GHHS, which is widely dismissed on SDN as a complete popularity contest even though some PDs consider it (even though that PD survey gets slammed on here). Academics is important but intangibles also matter.

I agree with the rest of your post.

No, it's not. AOA is very heavily class-rank dependent, almost universally. In fact, UTSW conveniently publishes their criteria for AOA election: Selection Criteria . Based on their own criteria, this kind of activity would be worth 2, maaaaybe 3 points for community service. If someone really was gunning for AOA, they would actively avoid activities like this. Again, there are a lot of people making invalid assumptions about the school on reddit who have no idea what they are talking about.

GHHS literally is intended to recognize students who choose to volunteer their time. So I don't see why someone getting a leg up for GHHS by volunteering is scandalous.

 

[Lawpy]

I think we're stuck in an impasse over whether this is truly volunteering (and so zero consequences or pressure for not volunteering). Agreed there's a lot of speculation, anecdotes etc on both sides, so we're really just going in circles here. The two instances i posted show the school/hospital has problems, so i'm not too keen on completely believing that email and feeling zero pressure if i were a UTSW student.

I'll be on the lookout for more info from those in UTSW specifically as this situation evolves

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I think we're stuck in an impasse over whether this is truly volunteering (and so zero consequences or pressure for not volunteering). Agreed there's a lot of speculation, anecdotes etc on both sides, so we're really just going in circles here. The two instances i posted show the school/hospital has problems, so i'm not too keen on completely believing that email and feeling zero pressure if i were a UTSW student.

I'll be on the lookout for more info from those in UTSW specifically as this situation evolves

It’s not an impasse. It’s clearly one thing with a group of people completely ignoring reality to argue it’s something else with zero evidence.

 

[Lawpy]

It’s not an impasse. It’s clearly one thing with a group of people completely ignoring reality to argue it’s something else with zero evidence.

Is it reality to based it entirely on the school's words in that email?

 

[Lawpy]

That's why i said i'm waiting it out to see how the situation develops and not just offhandedly dismissing one side of the discussion

 

[GoSpursGo]

I think we're stuck in an impasse over whether this is truly volunteering (and so zero consequences or pressure for not volunteering). Agreed there's a lot of speculation, anecdotes etc on both sides, so we're really just going in circles here. The two instances i posted show the school/hospital has problems, so i'm not too keen on completely believing that email and feeling zero pressure if i were a UTSW student.

I'll be on the lookout for more info from those in UTSW specifically as this situation evolves

I agree with @Matthew9Thirtyfive . You haven't meaningfully responded to rebuttals of your assumptions with actual evidence, but rather keep referring to additional speculation on Reddit. It is possible that we could be proven wrong, but you fundamentally haven't backed your arguments with anything approaching facts. It's fair to say that we should see how this develops, but you're equating Reddit comments with actual experience and published AOA criteria.

 

[Lawpy]

I agree with @Matthew9Thirtyfive . You haven't meaningfully responded to rebuttals of your assumptions with actual evidence, but rather keep referring to additional speculation on Reddit. It is possible that we could be proven wrong, but you fundamentally haven't backed your arguments with anything approaching facts. It's fair to say that we should see how this develops, but you're equating Reddit comments with actual experience and published AOA criteria.

It looks to me the evidence in support of the argument that there's zero pressure to volunteer/zero consequences not to volunteer is taking the school's words as true. It's an SDN adage that there are 3 sides to every story: the students, the school and what actually is happening

I linked that nurse anecdote who supposedly worked at UTSW that discussed the major issues involved. That could very likely resulted in a lot of nurses quitting their jobs and creating a huge shortage of healthcare workers, which compelled the hospital to request the school to have MS1s and MS2s volunteer for more help. But if the situation of malignancy as reported in nurse's anecdote is true, that's subjecting MS1s/2s to unpleasant difficulties (on top of liability issues that were mentioned earlier)

The thing is we don't know but the reports of hospital problems definitely gave me reservations to believe there is no pressure from the school admin/culture to volunteer. And seeing that this discussion emerged from an internal email posted on Reddit, it's clear to me at least one UTSW student isn't happy about this

The only ones who truly know what's going on are the UTSW students themselves

 

[Lawpy]

GHHS literally is intended to recognize students who choose to volunteer their time. So I don't see why someone getting a leg up for GHHS by volunteering is scandalous.

Just to clarify, i'm saying not volunteering may hurt their chances of getting GHHS

Also thanks for the AOA selection criteria. I was under the mistaken impression that UTSW is true P/F like many others (which in those cases would probably be clinical years + intangibles iirc)

 

[GoSpursGo]

The only ones who truly know what's going on are the UTSW students themselves

That is true. Maybe we shouldn't speculate until they provide their input.

 

[operaman]

Then the school/hospital should focus on getting nursing students, NP/PA students, CNAs etc to do the work. Altruism is a buzzword that hospitals like to use to exploit healthcare workers and students, and med students in desperate desire for some CV boosting things (even though this crap isn't CV boosting) will blindly plunge into it.

I know people stated the peer pressure is in their heads and not real but given the situation surrounding the community and school, it feels very real to be ostracized as a student for not helping along (which in turn has damaging implications for AOA, which does matter)

You’re definitely right that altruism is often exploited. I’ve definitely experienced that both as a physician and as a performing artist in my previous career. Whenever people love doing something, there’s definitely a temptation exploit them.

In this case, the completely volunteer basis for this one (presumably of many) opportunities takes it out of the realm of exploitation for me. Just like as an artist I would sometimes do things gratis if it was a work I deeply loved, but if not then I’d just let it go to someone else.

In some ways, it would be far more coercive and exploitive to frame this as a job for students who are otherwise forbidden from working by school policy. There would suddenly be another competing interest and you run the risk of people forgoing schoolwork, not to mention the message of seeing medical students as a cheap pool of labor.

I know that probably sounds odd from someone who supports not paying them anything at all, but leaving this as purely optional and unpaid seems to respect students even more in my view. They’re worth far more than the $15-20 /hr they would likely be paid - these are our future colleagues and possibly even our own physicians in the near future. Their first priority should be to that end. Offering them a voluntary opportunity to lend a hand as budding physicians where it’s desperately needed preserves the honor of what they’re ultimately doing. Letting them work as a $15/hr nurses aide seems far more demeaning.

As for whether students feel pressured to do this because so many others are, I think that’s just fine. I think a little discomfort can be a good thing. I would imagine the students who are too busy volunteering elsewhere won’t feel pressured at all; it’s probably the ones who aren’t doing anything other than hitting the Anki cards realizing there’s more to doctoring than grades and scores. I’m perfectly fine with them feeling uncomfortable for that.

 

[deleted393595]

How many logical fallacies are you going to try to fit in one thread?

This attitude is why medicine deserves to be run into the ground by the NP/PA/CRNA/admin lobby. Self-defeatism and virtue signaling are the hallmarks of this trade.

 

[GoSpursGo]

This attitude is why medicine deserves to be run into the ground by the NP/PA/CRNA/admin lobby. Self-defeatism and virtue signaling are the hallmarks of this trade.

@Matthew9Thirtyfive is one of the strongest voices against midlevel encroachment on SDN. There... just isn't anything here worthy of our outrage.

 

[deleted393595]

@Matthew9Thirtyfive is one of the strongest voices against midlevel encroachment on SDN. There... just isn't anything here worthy of our outrage.

He was off the mark on responding to @Lawpy

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

He was off the mark on responding to @Lawpy

Bro. He has been catastrophizing and shouting false info all over this thread, completely ignoring what we actually know and has actually been happening while moving goalposts around to continue being outraged, then claiming he’s going to wait for more info and that he’s always been saying that.

There is nothing to be outraged about here. Calling out other people in medicine for being over the top is not “off the mark.” We are supposed to be policing each other.

And fyi, I am one of the biggest opponents of midlevel expansion on this site.

 

[Lawpy]

Bro. He has been catastrophizing and shouting false info all over this thread, completely ignoring what we actually know and has actually been happening while moving goalposts around to continue being outraged, then claiming he’s going to wait for more info and that he’s always been saying that.

There is nothing to be outraged about here. Calling out other people in medicine for being over the top is not “off the mark.” We are supposed to be policing each other.

And fyi, I am one of the biggest opponents of midlevel expansion on this site.

You are taking that school's word as a fact to make a claim there's zero pressure involved not to volunteer and then dismissing the points of concern as exaggerated and over the top. Unless you also know the exact situation, even your points amount to speculation.

 

[Lawpy]

This attitude is why medicine deserves to be run into the ground by the NP/PA/CRNA/admin lobby. Self-defeatism and virtue signaling are the hallmarks of this trade.

Interestingly

 

[Lawpy]

Wait what?



I don't know if this is fake news but this is the most recent post i found

 

[GoSpursGo]

You are taking that school's word as a fact to make a claim there's zero pressure involved not to volunteer and then dismissing the points of concern as exaggerated and over the top. Unless you also know the exact situation, even your points amount to speculation.

You are talking in circles here. In the absence of an actual student sharing their negative experience, then there is no reason to assume the school is being disingenuous unless for some reason you believe all med schools are evil.

Interestingly

This has been discussed at length in another thread on SDN.

It seems like this may not even be a thing anymore, but regardless, I am out. There are only so many times I can make the same points, and it seems like most of the people here just came to get outraged, so it doesn't really seem to matter what I say.

 

[Lawpy]

You are talking in circles here. In the absence of an actual student sharing their negative experience, then there is no reason to assume the school is being disingenuous unless for some reason you believe all med schools are evil.

This has been discussed at length in another thread on SDN.

It seems like this may not even be a thing anymore, but regardless, I am out. There are only so many times I can make the same points, and it seems like most of the people here just came to get outraged, so it doesn't really seem to matter what I say.

The discussion was already done until it got resurrected and i kept getting criticized, which is why i responded back