US medical grad, residency in Australia?

[legobikes]

Hi folks,
I'm a fourth year med student at a top 40 NIH university, starting to applyfor Pediatric residencies in the US, but I've also recently been thinking about (Peds) residency in Australia, as my wife and I have some family there, and because that is where a major proportion of people of my ethnicity have immigrated to and hence I think I could be of some specific use.

I took a look at the Competent Authority pathway, but I have a hard time figuring out if I qualify, and exactly how I would go about getting an internship/residency in Australia. Anyone have some quick information on the general process, and if I do indeed have better chances than someone going through the Standard pathway?

Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[cosycatus]

pediatric training in Aus is much longer than US. You are board certified in 3 years in the US and accredited as a specialist while pediatrician training is ~6-7 years in the Auzzie after internship year. Technically, u are a specialist only if u exit with a FRACP. Tat said, that 6-7 years includes the equivalent of a sub-specialty fellowship in the US.

The issue is with securing a internship place in Auzzie. Currently, foreign grads are about at the btm of the scale. Auzzie confer internship by the state. Ie, for example, if u are Auzzie citizen/PR and u graduate from a school in New South wales ( eg U Syd), u are guarantee an internship , next comes Auzzie/students from schools in other states, next come international student from a school in tat state, and international students from schools in other states , and last comes foreign students.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Its not going to happen. Your chances are better if you complete a residency in the US and become board certified, of working in Australia. Otherwise you will have to take the AMC examinations and those are brutal.

Also they are very unlikely to let North Americans into training programs because of the increased numbers of locals as well as the fact that so many skip out once they get some training in NA. This is usually North American internationals who study Medicine in Australia. I know of a few already who left and it leaves a bad impression in the eyes of many here.

 

[pitman]

Also they are very unlikely to let North Americans into training programs because of the increased numbers of locals as well as the fact that so many skip out once they get some training in NA. This is usually North American internationals who study Medicine in Australia. I know of a few already who left and it leaves a bad impression in the eyes of many here.

I completely disagree with the above statement.

There is no reason to believe that internationals who stay on or come here, get fully registered and their PR, will be disadvantaged for specialty training. It hasn't happened, and there's no reason to believe it will happen based on the anecdote that some former int'ls leave Australia. It's akin to an earlier claim you made that internship spots won't be made for int'ls for the same reason, which is completely false and has nothing to do with the training problems states are facing and attempting to address.

You are also again jumping the gun claiming that post-intern residents can't come to Oz.

PacificBlue, if you want to keep making such bizarro assertions, back them up with college stats or references at the least -- what you say has the potential of affecting the direction of people's careers, and your habit of making general unsubstantiated claims is callous.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

I completely disagree with the above statement.

There is no reason to believe that internationals who stay on or come here, get fully registered and their PR, will be disadvantaged for specialty training. It hasn't happened, and there's no reason to believe it will happen based on the anecdote that some former int'ls leave Australia. It's akin to an earlier claim you made that internship spots won't be made for int'ls for the same reason, which is completely false and has nothing to do with the training problems states are facing and attempting to address.

You are also again jumping the gun claiming that post-intern residents can't come to Oz.

PacificBlue, if you want to keep making such bizarro assertions, back them up with college stats or references at the least -- what you say has the potential of affecting the direction of people's careers, and your habit of making general unsubstantiated claims is callous.

Well just look at the surging numbers of medical students in Australia. There was even a meeting a few years ago between USyd MedSoc and NSW Health regarding the internship issue. UQ has nearly doubled its class size over the past five years, now USyd is also adding more students. Add to this the new medical schools in Australia. There are going to be a lot more graduates in the next few years and training spots have not increased to make up for the bigger student numbers. UQ has been particularly irresponsible with running their school like a 2 bit diploma mill. A lot of my friends are blaming the internship issue solely on UQ upping its student intake to insane levels. Isn't there around 500 students there per class? Now USyd is starting to do the same. USyd is going to take 80 internationals compared to 50 when I started, although I was technically a local.

Its not impossible for OTDs to do training in Australia its just that its very difficult, the USA is a lot more IMG friendly than Australia. IMGs comprise one third of US physicians while many Aussies are suspicious of OTDs, the Australian media is particularly cruel.

I also find what UQ is doing with the Ochsner program to be completely unethical, I looked at the program website, and they really do not explicity tell the viewer that this is a foreign program and the person who gets a degree through the program will be an IMG. That is highly unethical of them not to be explicit about the fact that the graduates of the program will be IMGs. They are marketing it as a program for students to be able to eventually practice in the US. If someone asked me my opinion of it, I would tell them to go to a DO school.

The poster is much better off getting his board certification in the US, there are a few board certified US physicians working in Australia. And the OP can avoid the AMC this way. The AMC is something that OTDs need to take to train in Australia, even Australian citizens who went overseas for med need to take this test and its brutal.

I know many North Americans who often undertake internships and RMO positions to bide their time for applying to residencies and have no intention of remaining in Oz for the long run. I already know of a couple of people who matched into programs in North America and left. And at least if the op winds up not liking Australia he or she can go back to the US and still have his board certification if he completes a US residency.

The authorities here will grant internships to internationals...if they are available but unlike the guarantees given to local students, they are not guaranteeing nothing for international students and particularly the conduct of many internationals from NA in the past have made things the way they are today. Its extremely unethical to take a training spot and then just run away.

There are also a lot of issues in Australia with regards to OTDs, like the 10 year rule which applies to certain fields such as General Practice. I think it would be responsible to let the OP know about that. Its also well known that many OTDs usually wind up working in less desirable locales where local students would never work.

 

[pitman]

Well just look at the surging numbers of medical students in Australia.

PacificBlue, the problem is that you incessantly feel the need to take some half-related bit of information, and then assert something based on your uninformed opinion of what that bit of information seems to be telling you. Yes, there is a surging number of med students in Australia. Yes, there will be increased difficulties in training. However, people like yourself have been making doomsday prophesies since 2003 on this forum, saying things very similar to you about how no one should come to Australia since there won't be any spots within the next year or two. Well, here it is 2010 and only now is it becoming anything other than a sure thing for a half-competent int'l grad to get an internship.

While it makes sense to warn the perp that there will be an increasing number of grads funneling through the system, it does not do any good to pretend to know something about how colleges could or might conceivably respond to the challenge. Your inference makes no sense.

I'm sorry, but as someone who does know quite a bit about how med politics works here, I have to say that you keep showing how very little you do know. But that hasn't stopped you making uninformed exaggerated claims, and that is irresponsible.

UQ has been particularly irresponsible with running their school like a 2 bit diploma mill. A lot of my friends are blaming the internship issue solely on UQ upping its student intake to insane levels.

Your friends are blaming UQ for Australia's tsunami? Maybe it's time to get friends who understand the history a little.

I also find what UQ is doing with the Ochsner program to be completely unethical, I looked at the program website, and they really do not explicity tell the viewer that this is a foreign program and the person who gets a degree through the program will be an IMG. That is highly unethical of them not to be explicit about the fact that the graduates of the program will be IMGs.

So this is how you're justifying posting elsewhere that UQ is being dishonest? Are you crazy? Int'ls who apply to UQ are all directed to this page, where it cannot be plainer that Ochsner grads in the US will be IMGs:

http://www2.som.uq.edu.au/som/Futur...onalStudents/Pages/InternationalStudents.aspx

The authorities here will grant internships to internationals...if they are available but unlike the guarantees given to local students, they are not guaranteeing nothing for international students and particularly the conduct of many internationals from NA in the past have made things the way they are today. Its extremely unethical to take a training spot and then just run away.

Int'ls having left Australia has NOTHING to do with the fact that there are not enough internship spots, nor that their priority is below that of domestic students. Again, you're taking one little fact and attempting to use that to claim things not even remotely a reality. If you think you know this to be the case in NSW at a couple hospitals where you might conceivably know something about how hospital admin types think, then say so and then back it up. But stop asserting general claims based on some theory you have based on some anecdote. 'Cause you've been wrong a LOT.

There are also a lot of issues in Australia with regards to OTDs, like the 10 year rule which applies to certain fields such as General Practice. I think it would be responsible to let the OP know about that. Its also well known that many OTDs usually wind up working in less desirable locales where local students would never work.

...which is really the 5-10 year moratorium, which applies to all OTDs, not just to certain fields. The only difference for GPs is that GP registrars here who under the moratorium have to do the rural training route, which isn't really rural but more accurately 'non-major city'. At any rate, there are other threads dedicated to the moratorium.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

PacificBlue, the problem is that you incessantly feel the need to take some half-related bit of information, and then assert something based on your uninformed opinion of what that bit of information seems to be telling you. Yes, there is a surging number of med students in Australia. Yes, there will be increased difficulties in training. However, people like yourself have been making doomsday prophesies since 2003 on this forum, saying things very similar to you about how no one should come to Australia since there won't be any spots within the next year or two. Well, here it is 2010 and only now is it becoming anything other than a sure thing for a half-competent int'l grad to get an internship.

While it makes sense to warn the perp that there will be an increasing number of grads funneling through the system, it does not do any good to pretend to know something about how colleges could or might conceivably respond to the challenge. Your inference makes no sense.

I'm sorry, but coming from someone who DOES know quite a bit about how med politics works here, you keep showing you have very little knowledge of that. But that hasn't stopped you, and that is irresponsible.


Your friends are blaming UQ for Australia's tsunami? Maybe it's time to get friends who understand the history a little.


So this is how you're justifying posting elsewhere that UQ is being dishonest? Are you crazy? People who apply to UQ go here, where it cannot be plainer that the grad will be an IMG:

http://www2.som.uq.edu.au/som/Futur...onalStudents/Pages/InternationalStudents.aspx


Int'ls having left Australia has NOTHING to do with the fact that there are not enough internship spots, nor that their priority is below that of domestic students. Again, you're taking one little fact and attempting to use that to explain things that has nothing to do with reality. If you think you know this to be the case in NSW where you might conceivably know something about how hospital admin types think, then say so and then back it up. But stop asserting general claims based on some theory you have based on some anecdote. 'Cause you're usually wrong.


...which is really the 5-10 year moratorium, which applies to all OTDs, not just to certain fields. The only difference for GPs is that GP registrars here who under the moratorium have to do the rural training route, which isn't really rural but more accurately 'non-major city'. At any rate, there are other threads dedicated to the moratorium.

I am basing this on my own experiences at USyd and with the admin in NSW especially with regards to internationals and internships. Its quite well known that the number of students is increasing but the number of training spots are not. NSW and Queensland are very different and the politics are different in the two states. Queensland from what little I know of it seems more open to OTDs because of the regional areas that have doctor shortages.

Me and friend last year were discussing the issue with internships and he was pointing out the fact that UQ dramatically increased their student enrollment. Now USyd is doing something similar the class starting next year will be 300.

I am also trying to see the op's situation, he or she is in the US, in a US medical school, in that system they will have a lot more opportunity for residency training. Things are getting tight in Australia that even locals are going to struggle. Why does he want to uproot himself from more certain prospects in America to a more uncertain situation in a foreign country? I wonder if the op has even spent an extended period of time in Australia to really want to move here? I know a lot of people whose eyes light up when they hear Australia but when the realities of living here become apparent it changes their tune. Moving to a new country is not easy. I have done it several times in my life.

Also someone else indicated that Peds training is a lot longer than the US, 6 to 7 years post internship. Most Peds residencies in the US are three years. That is a big gap in time. So if theoretically the OP comes to Australia does the training then finds out he or she would rather be in America, that is a huge waste of time, not to mention that he or she will have to go back home and do it all over again because Australian training is not recognized in the USA. There is a saying that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.


Also I am not a doomsayer, I am just saying that nothing is guaranteed at all.

 

[pitman]

I am basing this on my own experiences at USyd and with the admin in NSW especially with regards to internationals and internships. Its quite well known that the number of students is increasing but the number of training spots are not.

"this"? What? You're admitting that you're basing this claim:

Also they are very unlikely to let North Americans into training programs because of the increased numbers of locals as well as the fact that so many skip out once they get some training in NA.

...on the fact that internship spots are increasing? That independent training colleges will discriminate against foreigners who'd have permanent residency because of an ongoing trend of internship numbers? Is this the sort of stretch you make when diagnosing an illness?

Me and friend last year were discussing the issue with internships and he was pointing out the fact that UQ dramatically increased their student enrollment. Now USyd is doing something similar the class starting next year will be 300.

So you're saying that your friends blame UQ for the tsunami because as they point out, UQ increased its student numbers, and then USyd also did so? Do you not see at least several problems with such a deduction? Do you understand that uncritically accepting and propagating such an uninformed view makes you culpable for it?

Also I am not a doomsayer, I am just saying that nothing is guaranteed at all.

No, you've been repeatedly, incorrigibly, making claims in threads that are exaggerated and/or plain false, then, and only when confronted, have backed off to claim you've just been saying "nothing is guaranteed".

 

[PacificBlue2012]

"this"? What? You're admitting that you're basing this claim:


...on the fact that internship spots are increasing? That independent training colleges will discriminate against foreigners who'd have permanent residency because of an ongoing trend of internship numbers? Is this the sort of stretch you make when diagnosing an illness?


So you're saying that your friends blame UQ for the tsunami because as they point out, UQ increased its student numbers, and then USyd also did so? Do you not see at least several problems with such a deduction? Do you understand that uncritically accepting and propagating such an uninformed view makes you culpable for it?


No, you've been repeatedly, incorrigibly, making claims in threads that are exaggerated and/or plain false, then, and only when confronted, have backed off to claim you've just been saying "nothing is guaranteed".

Wow now you are really twisting my words when I talk of internationals I talk about students who do not have Australian PR, I am talking about those on student visas, those ones are less likely to get an internship because of simple math, more graduates, stagnant training spots means less of a chance of an international on a student visa of getting an internship. Of course if you have PR its a whole different story. If you are a North American with a PR of course you should be able to get into training programs but many do not have PR so that becomes a big issue. The people I knew who left did not have PR, and one left because for some reason he was denied a PR visa.

Where are the increasing internship spots? I would love to hear about this. One thing most Australian schools do admit is that they do not guarantee an international student will be able to stay after graduation or get a PR, that would be really unethical of them to do so but people do stay but its not guaranteed nor is it easy. Also if you studied medicine you need to complete an intern year to be recognized as a doctor so that you can apply for PR under the skilled scheme. A kind of a catch 22 there.

UQ set a precedent with having the biggest student population of any school in Australia or the English speaking world for that matter, a few years ago I believe it was 300 per class and now 500!!! 500 students per class year is insane. USyd kept the number at around 250 for a while up until now. My friend was simply making a comment. Queensland is the Aussie equivalent of Mississippi anyway, backward.

 

[pitman]

No, I am not twisting your words.

Also they are very unlikely to let North Americans into training programs because of the increased numbers of locals as well as the fact that so many skip out once they get some training in NA. This is usually North American internationals who study Medicine in Australia. I know of a few already who left and it leaves a bad impression in the eyes of many here.

Your claim refers to "training programs" (in the context of paeds as asked by the perp above), i.e., college-run training programs. It is NOT restricted to, nor has anything to do with, internship. Training programs require prior completion and recognition of internship and permanent residency. There is no other way to interpret your statement except that N. Americans cannot get INTO college training programs because there is/will be discrimination against them, which discrimination would have to come from the colleges. If you meant something else, then retract your statement and try another.

UQ set a precedent with having the biggest student population of any school in Australia or the English speaking world for that matter, a few years ago I believe it was 300 per class and now 500!!! 500 students per class year is insane. USyd kept the number at around 250 for a while up until now.

Have you ever during your training, or anywhere else, come across the phrase, post hoc ergo propter hoc ?

Would you like to be informed of the history of the tsunami? Maybe from the 1980s when the doctor shortage became a political problem? Or maybe from the mid-1990s when grad programs were sprouting in response to the shortages and to near-bankrupt schools needing a revenue stream? Or maybe you'd like to discuss how the new schools add to the internship numbers? Or maybe the history in Queensland in particular, where 3 have opened in the past 10 years, graduating more students than any increase in numbers at UQ since then (and as I've said before, UQ has never had any classes with 500 students)? Or would you like to discuss how USyd is not some lackey of UQ's in this game of culpability? Or the numbers of interstate interns?

It makes absolutely no sense to imply that UQ is any more to blame for Australia's internship crunch than any new school, any other school which has increased numbers (virtually all), any state or the federal government. In fact, the Ochsner program which you have derided as `bad` based on whatever (the banner formatting?) serves to RELIEVE some of the pressure on internship numbers, leaving far fewer than even the real size of UQ's incoming classes, and if you want to change your argument to current graduating years, maybe you should start by getting the correct much smaller number for UQ grads, and compare that to how many students each of the new Qld schools had 4 years ago.

Where are the increasing internship spots? I would love to hear about this.

Bummer. Why not ask or read about that and about the history of the tsunami before propagating false presumptions?

Queensland is the Aussie equivalent of Mississippi anyway, backward.

And this is not the first time you have expressed bigotry (i.e., prejudicial beliefs, rationalized or not).

 

[PacificBlue2012]

No, I am not twisting your words.


Your claim refers to "training programs" (in the context of paeds as asked by the perp above), i.e., college-run training programs. It is NOT restricted to, nor has anything to do with, internship. Training programs require prior completion and recognition of internship and permanent residency. There is no other way to interpret your statement except that N. Americans cannot get INTO college training programs because there is/will be discrimination against them, which discrimination would have to come from the colleges. If you meant something else, then retract your statement and try another.



Have you ever during your training, or anywhere else, come across the phrase, post hoc ergo propter hoc ?

Would you like to be informed of the history of the tsunami? Maybe from the 1980s when the doctor shortage became a political problem? Or maybe from the mid-1990s when grad programs were sprouting in response to the shortages and to near-bankrupt schools needing a revenue stream? Or maybe you'd like to discuss how the new schools add to the internship numbers? Or maybe the history in Queensland in particular, where 3 have opened in the past 10 years, graduating more students than any increase in numbers at UQ since then (and as I've said before, UQ has never had any classes with 500 students)? Or would you like to discuss how USyd is not some lackey of UQ's in this game of culpability? Or the numbers of interstate interns?

It makes absolutely no sense to imply that UQ is any more to blame for Australia's internship crunch than any new school, any other school which has increased numbers (virtually all), any state or the federal government. In fact, the Ochsner program which you have derided as `bad` based on whatever (the banner formatting?) serves to RELIEVE some of the pressure on internship numbers, leaving far fewer than even the real size of UQ's incoming classes, and if you want to change your argument to current graduating years, maybe you should start by getting the correct much smaller number for UQ grads, and compare that to how many students each of the new Qld schools had 4 years ago.



Bummer. Why not ask or read about that and about the history of the tsunami before propagating false presumptions?


And this is not the first time you have expressed bigotry (i.e., prejudicial beliefs, rationalized or not).

I was working under the assumption of someone who is an international student on a temporary student visa not someone with PR, there is a big difference between the two, that was my assumption. PR is not easy to get, and the way Aussie migration works is that you use your degree and or experience to pass a points test. International students use their Australian degree, but the issue for medical students is that they need to complete the internship year in order to use their medical degree to get PR but in most cases you need a PR to get an internship spot.
If you are a North American with permanent residency of course you can get into a training program, which I will. Duh!!!! If the OP or the perp as you love to refer to him/her as, has a PR visa, his chances of getting into a training program will be much higher.

By the way when I applied for a PR way back in the day, Doctors were not on the migration skilled list. Also in the early years international students used to sign an agreement that they would leave Australia after getting their degree.

And in general, Australia is not as open as the US has been towards foreign medical graduates.

Queensland??!! LOL. I have been there a couple of times, its pretty, but sure is hot as hell and my wife calls it Bogan city.

 

[pitman]

Again, this is what you said:

Also they are very unlikely to let North Americans into training programs because of the increased numbers of locals as well as the fact that so many skip out once they get some training in NA.

Yes, it is getting difficult to get an internship here. No, it has nothing to do with some int'ls skipping out. No, it is not unlikely that "they" will "let" N. Americans into training programs here, as the AMC process is a process (and although lengthy, I wouldn't say "brutal"), not something that requires a "they" to "let" something happen, unless one means the colleges who must accept the candidate into a program. But there is no reason to believe that colleges won't "let" that happen.

Consider your audience. The perp asked a question -- you do disservice to him by not better qualifying your answer. Internship as an IMG is difficult to get (this may be the first year where IMGs are shut out, though the cycle isn't yet completed). Alternatively the AMC process is a lengthy process, but as soon as full registration (via internship or AMC) is granted, PR is easily gotten, and then there's no extra-ordinary hurdle standing in the way for getting into a training program.

Yes, it would be easier to first complete training in the US and then come here, since as you stated internship and the AMC process can be avoided (from certain countries, depending on the specialty).

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Again, this is what you said:

Yes, it is getting difficult to get an internship here. No, it has nothing to do with some int'ls skipping out. No, it is not unlikely that "they" will "let" N. Americans into training programs here, as the AMC process is a process (and although lengthy, I wouldn't say "brutal"), not something that requires a "they" to "let" something happen, unless one means the colleges who must accept the candidate into a program. But there is no reason to believe that colleges won't "let" that happen.

Consider your audience. The perp asked a question -- you do disservice to him by not better qualifying your answer. Internship as an IMG is difficult to get (this may be the first year where IMGs are shut out, though the cycle isn't yet completed). Alternatively the AMC process is a lengthy process, but as soon as full registration (via internship or AMC) is granted, PR is easily gotten, and then there's no extra-ordinary hurdle standing in the way for getting into a training program.

Yes, it would be easier to first complete training in the US and then come here, since as you stated internship and the AMC process can be avoided (from certain countries, depending on the specialty).

Its also way easier for an American trained board certified physician to work in Australia than the other way around. Its not uncommon to see a few here and there.

The visa system in Australia has some issues, its really silly that international students studying Medicine cannot but someone who went to a TAFE and studied hair dressing can get one easily, although that loophole is closing.

I have a friend from NA who went to medical school at USyd, got an internship, finished it, applied for PR and he got denied. A friend of his studied Nursing and got it a month before she finished her degree, not exactly fair.

 

[pitman]

I have a friend from NA who went to medical school at USyd, got an internship, finished it, applied for PR and he got denied. A friend of his studied Nursing and got it a month before she finished her degree, not exactly fair.

Obviously I don't know the particulars for your friend, but it is straight-forward and systematic to get PR after internship. Granted, one must pass a police check, and there is a cutoff for getting points for your age (I think it's 45, or at least thereabouts), but there is typically a surplus of >10 points and there is very little that will prevent the visa from being granted.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Obviously I don't know the particulars for your friend, but it is straight-forward and systematic to get PR after internship. Granted, one must pass a police check, and there is a cutoff for getting points for your age (I think it's 45, or at least thereabouts), but there is typically a surplus of >10 points and there is very little that will prevent the visa from being granted.

He definitely did not have a criminal record, he is doing a residency in the US in some academic program and I know the background checks in the US for residents is a lot more full on than those in Australia. Maybe it was just bad luck. But the PR issue is the hurdle that international students must contend with as priority goes to PR holders for internships. I have known that students in other courses tend to have a much easier time getting PR than medical students, especially those in Nursing. Its because they are qualified for registration in their profession once they finish school.