Unsure if to continue pre-med or switch to chemistry, please help.

[jund-jitsu]

Hello, I was born with aortic stenosis and because of people like my cardiologist I've always wanted to become a MD. All was fine until I took organic chemistry and realized it was by far my favorite class I've ever taken; i like it so much I have fun taking the exams. Also, I'm extremely passionate about brazilian jiu jitsu (hence the name) and cant imagine living a life without it. I'm trying to decide whether to keep pursuing medicine with a biology degree as I have been, or switch to chemistry and obtain my PhD. With a PhD I was hoping to work for a pharmaceutical company synthesizing drugs. Bottom line is I want to help people and be able to maintain my hobby (jiu jitsu) i register on tuesday, please help!

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[aldol16]

Well, isn't this a decision that only you can make? I can tell you that MD is definitely better in terms of job prospects because they are simply graduating too many PhDs and there aren't enough jobs to go around. Many STEM PhDs end up in completely different fields because of this - although the ones in finance probably aren't complaining. The pharma job market is also shrinking because R&D departments are starting to become M&A departments. Pharma is basically outsourcing a lot of work to universities and smaller start-ups. You should ask around and look into this more. The situation will be slightly better if you can get into a top chemistry program and well-known advisor, though.

There's also the option of majoring in chemistry as an undergrad and going to med school. That way, you put off the decision between PhD and MD for a few years and by that time, you should have more information about what you want to do.

 

[eteshoe]

Hello, I was born with aortic stenosis and because of people like my cardiologist I've always wanted to become a MD. All was fine until I took organic chemistry and realized it was by far my favorite class I've ever taken; i like it so much I have fun taking the exams. Also, I'm extremely passionate about brazilian jiu jitsu (hence the name) and cant imagine living a life without it. I'm trying to decide whether to keep pursuing medicine with a biology degree as I have been, or switch to chemistry and obtain my PhD. With a PhD I was hoping to work for a pharmaceutical company synthesizing drugs. Bottom line is I want to help people and be able to maintain my hobby (jiu jitsu) i register on tuesday, please help!

Have you only taken the basic ochem series? If so, I would say you take some advanced ochem (synthetic chem, natural products, total synthesis, chemical bio) before jumping the gun. As @aldol16 alluded to the career prospects of many STEM PhD (and I have quite extensive knowledge concerning Chem PhD since I was considering that path) is not the most positive at the moment.

When I read your thread title my initial thoughts were "can't you just do both?". However, upon reading your post, I feel that you may need to really evaluate what you want out of your career because MDs and PhDs really are two very different sorts of graduate degrees.

 

[jund-jitsu]

Yeah I'm in advanced ochem right now. Synthesis is my favorite part.

 

[jund-jitsu]

Well, isn't this a decision that only you can make? I can tell you that MD is definitely better in terms of job prospects because they are simply graduating too many PhDs and there aren't enough jobs to go around. Many STEM PhDs end up in completely different fields because of this - although the ones in finance probably aren't complaining. The pharma job market is also shrinking because R&D departments are starting to become M&A departments. Pharma is basically outsourcing a lot of work to universities and smaller start-ups. You should ask around and look into this more. The situation will be slightly better if you can get into a top chemistry program and well-known advisor, though.

There's also the option of majoring in chemistry as an undergrad and going to med school. That way, you put off the decision between PhD and MD for a few years and by that time, you should have more information about what you want to do.

So getting a PhD and conduct r&d may not be in a good spot. Im worried because there's more I want to do than just medicine and I've been told it really consumes your life

 

[jaxon]

One of my most trusted advisors was in pharma for like 30 years. He went to Harvard and then Cornell for his PhD in chem. He developed dozens and dozens of drugs... none of which are on the market because all of them failed to work in clinical trials. It's really a tough career, and big successes and breakthroughs are few and far between, even for the most talented. I know very little about the field honestly, but I'd just say make sure you know what you're signing up for whether its MD or PhD.

Good luck, fellow Jiu Jitsuka.

 

[takeurmeds02]

Yeah, you should seek out the PhDs in your chem dept and see if they have any current insight on your area of interest; you need to get an idea of the good, bad, and ugly.

 

[aldol16]

Have you only taken the basic ochem series? If so, I would say you take some advanced ochem (synthetic chem, natural products, total synthesis, chemical bio) before jumping the gun. As @aldol16 alluded to the career prospects of many STEM PhD (and I have quite extensive knowledge concerning Chem PhD since I was considering that path) is not the most positive at the moment.

What made you choose medicine over chem? I see that you're an MD/PhD student so are you doing a Bio PhD or something like that? I'm interested because I'm a chemistry graduate student and always like hearing stories about why people choose MD over PhD and vice versa.

 

[aalamruad]

Hello, I was born with aortic stenosis and because of people like my cardiologist I've always wanted to become a MD. All was fine until I took organic chemistry and realized it was by far my favorite class I've ever taken; i like it so much I have fun taking the exams. Also, I'm extremely passionate about brazilian jiu jitsu (hence the name) and cant imagine living a life without it. I'm trying to decide whether to keep pursuing medicine with a biology degree as I have been, or switch to chemistry and obtain my PhD. With a PhD I was hoping to work for a pharmaceutical company synthesizing drugs. Bottom line is I want to help people and be able to maintain my hobby (jiu jitsu) i register on tuesday, please help!

You should stop letting jiu jitsu factor into this decision. You can do it no matter what path you take. Focus on the important stuff

 

[eteshoe]

What made you choose medicine over chem? I see that you're an MD/PhD student so are you doing a Bio PhD or something like that? I'm interested because I'm a chemistry graduate student and always like hearing stories about why people choose MD over PhD and vice versa.

So before med school I had completed a MSc in Analytical Biochemistry looking at aspects of DNA damage repair. Since I enjoyed the application of the research in cancer therapeutics, I was originally convinced I'd go do my PhD in medicinal chem (in fact I did get into a few programs since I applied MD/PhD and PhD). However, talking with my PI and another PI in the lab across the hall (an old school medicinal/synthetic chemist) really opened my eyes about the career prospects of medicinal chemists - you pointed out some of those concerning pharma these days. Along with these conversations, I had friends who were a few yrs into chem grad programs that told me if I could do medicine, it might be worth the switch. By this time, I was also reaching the point where I wanted to do something a bit different than straight chemistry - don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my research but I wanted a different type of challenge.

Well I still wanted to do a PhD that would allow me to utilize my chemistry skills but in a more biomedically/biologically relevant context (and not just more biochem). And thus I decided to go with Pharmacology (specifically Cancer Pharmacology in my case) after doing a lot of research on fields within the medical sciences that utilized chemistry. When I was interviewing, a lot of the PIs were pretty open to having someone with an engineering/physical science background in their lab since the trend of biology trying to go more quantitative (a couple even said that you can teach molecular bio to a chemist far quicker than teaching chemistry and programming to a biologist). So I'm currently in an awesome multidisciplinary lab that brings together analytical chemistry, molecular biology and pharmacology, and computational genomics. I feel like I'll be able to really bring these aspects together in my research program when I'm a medical oncologist one day (fingers crossed).

So in a way I didn't quite give up chemistry for medicine - just using my skills in a new context that blends both. What's your area of research in chemistry?

 

[aldol16]

So in a way I didn't quite give up chemistry for medicine - just using my skills in a new context that blends both. What's your area of research in chemistry?

It definitely sounds like you've come a long way! Are you in the research years, clinical years, or still your medical instruction years? In reality, the job prospects for chemistry PhDs is simply not good nowadays because pharmaceutical companies don't want to hire PhDs at $80K+ a year when they can "collaborate" with professors and pay them much less to have their grad students do the same work. Even if they hire PhDs, job security is low because they would rather pay an entry-level PhD $60-80K to do the same job that an experienced PhD chemist could do. They're not hiring many PIs anymore because of this whole "collaboration" scheme. It's really a shame how many PhDs America is graduating. I would say <10% of PhD graduates now actually deserve their PhD. The whole reason med has maintained job security is because med school class sizes are very small and they really do limit seats to those who are most qualified. In fact, many qualified applicants don't get in simply because there are not enough spots. I think PhD programs should be run the same way because there are only limited positions in academia and industry - you can't graduate 20 students per position or else in 20 years, nobody will have a job.

Anyway, my research is in organometallic chemistry, focusing on catalytic transformations. It's very interesting to me but it's not something I want to continue because I can't see myself going into academia. I do believe that catalysis is the future of organic synthesis and the era of the organic chemist is coming to an end, though. There was a Science paper several months ago outlining what is basically a high-throughput screening machine that does what a PhD organic chemist does, but combinatorially and requiring only the technical skills of a tech. Before, organic chemistry was a skill and you needed to come up with creative ways to enact transformations because you couldn't try all the possibilities. Now, you can literally try all the possibilities. Don't know what reagents will work? Why not try all of them? I think in the next 10-20 years, pharmaceutical companies will start revolutionizing discovery chemistry and they'll start eliminating a lot of organic chemists because of that. For someone working with transition metals, there's always something in the polymer industry but that's not something I want to get into. I also don't want to breathe in metals for the rest of my life - most of them are just very very bad for you.

 

[eteshoe]

It definitely sounds like you've come a long way! Are you in the research years, clinical years, or still your medical instruction years? In reality, the job prospects for chemistry PhDs is simply not good nowadays because pharmaceutical companies don't want to hire PhDs at $80K+ a year when they can "collaborate" with professors and pay them much less to have their grad students do the same work. Even if they hire PhDs, job security is low because they would rather pay an entry-level PhD $60-80K to do the same job that an experienced PhD chemist could do. They're not hiring many PIs anymore because of this whole "collaboration" scheme. It's really a shame how many PhDs America is graduating. I would say <10% of PhD graduates now actually deserve their PhD. The whole reason med has maintained job security is because med school class sizes are very small and they really do limit seats to those who are most qualified. In fact, many qualified applicants don't get in simply because there are not enough spots. I think PhD programs should be run the same way because there are only limited positions in academia and industry - you can't graduate 20 students per position or else in 20 years, nobody will have a job.

Anyway, my research is in organometallic chemistry, focusing on catalytic transformations. It's very interesting to me but it's not something I want to continue because I can't see myself going into academia. I do believe that catalysis is the future of organic synthesis and the era of the organic chemist is coming to an end, though. There was a Science paper several months ago outlining what is basically a high-throughput screening machine that does what a PhD organic chemist does, but combinatorially and requiring only the technical skills of a tech. Before, organic chemistry was a skill and you needed to come up with creative ways to enact transformations because you couldn't try all the possibilities. Now, you can literally try all the possibilities. Don't know what reagents will work? Why not try all of them? I think in the next 10-20 years, pharmaceutical companies will start revolutionizing discovery chemistry and they'll start eliminating a lot of organic chemists because of that. For someone working with transition metals, there's always something in the polymer industry but that's not something I want to get into. I also don't want to breathe in metals for the rest of my life - most of them are just very very bad for you.

Thanks! It has been quite an adventure so far. So I'm currently in my 2nd yr of my PhD (probably got ~ 3 more yrs left). Then it's back to the clinic and beyond. It's weird being in a dual degree program since most of the friends I made in the pre-clinical yrs will be residents by the time I'm back on the wards but I'm adaptable so it's not too bad. I definitely agree with your assessment of chemistry PhDs in pharmaceutical companies and academia. One of the staff scientists (classically trained PhD chemist) in my lab said that she took that position because it allowed for some semblance of a job security w/o the headaches of trying to secure funds for an academic lab (albeit at a lower pay but beggars can't be choosers). I definitely think America is literally producing too many PhDs and not just in the STEM fields (the problem is even worse in the humanities). I always have these conversations with my dad (he'd done his PhD in Israel and postdoc in the UK) about the crazy and unsustainable graduate training system that has been allowed to run rampant in this country.

A few months ago I was talking to a computational chemist about the disappearance of organic chemist in the drug discovery process because the onset of these in silico methods that could run the millions of permutations needed for novel compound assessment. Pretty amazing stuff but kind of scary for the young organic chem PhD students. It's absolutely scary (but efficient) how big pharma is basically leaving the drug discovery part of pre-clinical development to smaller biotech and then just buying the companies once they get into Phase I or II clinical trials.

Definitely understand your thoughts on the whole inorganic chem/transition metal research. No point in increasing your risks of getting lung cancer if you can avoid it. But it sounds like you have a good idea of your career path so good luck!

 

[jund-jitsu]

Seriously you guys are so helpful, I cannot believe I didnt utilize this site before.

 

[kmp0410]

I think Medicine will be a much more stable field in terms of job prospects. Likely more money. I've only seen a little bit of that grind PhDs have to go through, and it seemingly never ends. I would never ever choose that personally. That said, if you really love chemistry then you might miss that type of work. Can't really tell another person how to be happy. I think the major question is if you want to work with patients. One you will get zero patient interaction (atleast as a provider of care).

I would think doing Chemistry while still hitting the premed prereqs is a good option. Many pre meds major in chemistry. Could pursue MD/PhD in the future if you really want. Would think you would be closer to the drug development side with that but you probably know that better than me.


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[jund-jitsu]

Mr. Meseeks and jiu jitsu? We should be best friends

 

[MemeFactory]

You could always major in Chemistry and still apply to medical school. The posts above bring up a good point, job prospects in STEM and especially in organic chemistry have taken a huge hit recently. Another option might be going to an MD-PhD program which would allow you to pursue both passions and also not take on any debt.

 

[jund-jitsu]

So before med school I had completed a MSc in Analytical Biochemistry looking at aspects of DNA damage repair. Since I enjoyed the application of the research in cancer therapeutics, I was originally convinced I'd go do my PhD in medicinal chem (in fact I did get into a few programs since I applied MD/PhD and PhD). However, talking with my PI and another PI in the lab across the hall (an old school medicinal/synthetic chemist) really opened my eyes about the career prospects of medicinal chemists - you pointed out some of those concerning pharma these days. Along with these conversations, I had friends who were a few yrs into chem grad programs that told me if I could do medicine, it might be worth the switch. By this time, I was also reaching the point where I wanted to do something a bit different than straight chemistry - don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my research but I wanted a different type of challenge.

Well I still wanted to do a PhD that would allow me to utilize my chemistry skills but in a more biomedically/biologically relevant context (and not just more biochem). And thus I decided to go with Pharmacology (specifically Cancer Pharmacology in my case) after doing a lot of research on fields within the medical sciences that utilized chemistry. When I was interviewing, a lot of the PIs were pretty open to having someone with an engineering/physical science background in their lab since the trend of biology trying to go more quantitative (a couple even said that you can teach molecular bio to a chemist far quicker than teaching chemistry and programming to a biologist). So I'm currently in an awesome multidisciplinary lab that brings together analytical chemistry, molecular biology and pharmacology, and computational genomics. I feel like I'll be able to really bring these aspects together in my research program when I'm a medical oncologist one day (fingers crossed).

So in a way I didn't quite give up chemistry for medicine - just using my skills in a new context that blends both. What's your area of research in chemistry?

So do you think it'd be wise to switch my major to pre-med chem or in the end will my undergrad not matter? What's your bachelor's in? and pharmacology is your PhD while getting your MD?

 

[jund-jitsu]

You could always major in Chemistry and still apply to medical school. The posts above bring up a good point, job prospects in STEM and especially in organic chemistry have taken a huge hit recently. Another option might be going to an MD-PhD program which would allow you to pursue both passions and also not take on any debt.

Yeah I was actually unaware that was an option. Do you have any idea of the added time?

 

[eteshoe]

So do you think it'd be wise to switch my major to pre-med chem or in the end will my undergrad not matter? What's your bachelor's in? and pharmacology is your PhD while getting your MD?

Switching to chem will really depend on a few things - mainly how far you are in your UG degree and how much of a hassle it would be to switch over. If you're not too far along your first degree, it's usually not that big of a deal to switch over. If switching would tack on like another year or so to your degree and money/loans are an issue, then it may not be worth it - you could just get a minor and it won't preclude you from med school. If you have the money to deal with the major switch, all the power to you.

So my BSc is in chemical engineering and biochemistry (double major). And yes in the dual degree program my PhD will be in Pharmacology (with a focus in cancer pharmacology & metabolism) and then a regular old MD.

 

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Have you done any research? Actually trying to synthesize compounds in a lab is way different that pushing electrons around on paper. As a chemist, I can tell you that job market really sucks right now if you want to do industry. Sucks slightly less if you want to go into academia.

Of course, if it's not too late, you can always switch the chem and make the med school decision later.

 

[doc05]

Im worried because there's more I want to do than just medicine and I've been told it really consumes your life

yes it does.

 

[jund-jitsu]

Have you done any research? Actually trying to synthesize compounds in a lab is way different that pushing electrons around on paper. As a chemist, I can tell you that job market really sucks right now if you want to do industry. Sucks slightly less if you want to go into academia.

Of course, if it's not too late, you can always switch the chem and make the med school decision later.

Yes, I synthesized acetaminophen in lab actually and it was the most fun I've ever had in a lab.

 

[jund-jitsu]

yes it does.

Is it a time management thing? Or is there no way around it?

 

[sharpstickie]

I had over 600 hours of research in my undergrad and thought that I wanted to get a PhD in Biochemistry until I did an internship with a big lab. I decided on medicine within the week of being there.

 

[jund-jitsu]

I had over 600 hours of research in my undergrad and thought that I wanted to get a PhD in Biochemistry until I did an internship with a big lab. I decided on medicine within the week of being there.

What was the deciding factor? Or what changed your mind

 

[Cytarabine]

Yes, I synthesized acetaminophen in lab actually and it was the most fun I've ever had in a lab.

Carrying out a well known reaction with predictable results is a taste, but isnt really the same. I spent the better part of a year trying to get a desired compound out of what was essentially tar and never succeeded

 

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Yes, I synthesized acetaminophen in lab actually and it was the most fun I've ever had in a lab.

That's a great start, but OChem lab a few hours a week isn't a very good indication of how you'll be spending your time. Nothing like working in a research lab where you could easily spend months trying to make a compound with nothing to show for it while having a very unhappy boss.

I spent a semester working in an organic lab before I switched to bioanalytic and then physical in grad school. No synthesis for me.

 

[sharpstickie]

What was the deciding factor? Or what changed your mind

Your undergrad lab work is nothing like it is in the real world. I didn't enjoy the setting and I knew that the longer I was in research, the less I'd be doing lab work and the more I would be reading/writing papers (the part I enjoyed the least).

 

[Ochemphd]

It doesn't sound like you have had a real strong introduction to the PhD environment and lifestyle. I think full time summer research in a synthesis lab is the only real way to determine if you would want to pursue a PhD in synthetic chemistry. There are VERY VERY FEW people for who I think a PhD in synthetic chemistry is the right choice career and happiness-wise. I just completed one and can answer any questions you have if you would like. Direct message me if interested.

 

[jund-jitsu]

It doesn't sound like you have had a real strong introduction to the PhD environment and lifestyle. I think full time summer research in a synthesis lab is the only real way to determine if you would want to pursue a PhD in synthetic chemistry. There are VERY VERY FEW people for who I think a PhD in synthetic chemistry is the right choice career and happiness-wise. I just completed one and can answer any questions you have if you would like. Direct message me if interested.

I cant view your profile, but what made you stick with it? What are you doing now?

 

[jund-jitsu]

That's a great start, but OChem lab a few hours a week isn't a very good indication of how you'll be spending your time. Nothing like working in a research lab where you could easily spend months trying to make a compound with nothing to show for it while having a very unhappy boss.

I spent a semester working in an organic lab before I switched to bioanalytic and then physical in grad school. No synthesis for me.

I think im gonna ask my professor if i can directed study and work with him, get a feel for it

 

[jund-jitsu]

That's a great start, but OChem lab a few hours a week isn't a very good indication of how you'll be spending your time. Nothing like working in a research lab where you could easily spend months trying to make a compound with nothing to show for it while having a very unhappy boss.

I spent a semester working in an organic lab before I switched to bioanalytic and then physical in grad school. No synthesis for me.

Also, what made you choose pchem?

 

[Mad Jack]

So getting a PhD and conduct r&d may not be in a good spot. Im worried because there's more I want to do than just medicine and I've been told it really consumes your life

It only consumes your life if you let it, aside from third year and intern year.

 

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Also, what made you choose pchem?

I really enjoyed pchem lab during my junior year, so I spent a summer in the professor's research lab. By the time I got to grad school, I had spent at least a semester in organic, analytical and physical so I had a good idea of what I wanted to do.

Most professors won't have a problem letting you into their labs since they'll just assign you to a grad student and you won't be in the professor's hair.

 

[aldol16]

Have you done any research? Actually trying to synthesize compounds in a lab is way different that pushing electrons around on paper. As a chemist, I can tell you that job market really sucks right now if you want to do industry. Sucks slightly less if you want to go into academia.

Sucks more if you want academia. Universities are cutting down on professorships and tenured professors aren't going anywhere. Think about it. One professor will train how many graduate students in his/her career? 30 at the lower end? 50-100 at the higher end? Even if out of those 30, only 2 want to go into academia (which is unrealistically low), there are still 2 people competing for 1 seat, on average. We're simply training too many PhDs nowadays and admissions is no longer selective - even at top programs. Some universities flunk out a significant percentage of their graduate student class because those students can't pass generals. Couple all this with the replacement of professorships with lectureships where universities hire part-time lecturers to teach undergraduates and now you have a huge problem. That's why many STEM PhDs are now using their quantitative skills on Wall Street or elsewhere. Academia is no longer realistic for the vast majority of PhD graduates and it is, in my humble opinion, folly to believe that oneself will be the exception to the rule.

Yes, I synthesized acetaminophen in lab actually and it was the most fun I've ever had in a lab.

You should try to get an internship in the industry you would want to work in. Discovery, process, and analytical chemistry all works differently than your labs in organic chemistry. In your labs, you probably followed a well-defined protocol to synthesize your product. In discovery chemistry, you're just screening a lot of products at a time to see if you can find a hit and/or figuring out new methods to synthesize novel compounds. In process chemistry, you use all your organic chemistry to synthesize a discovered product that the top dogs want to take to clinical trials or to market. Again, it's a lot of thinking because it's not just that you have to get the product, which is easy, but you have to get it in the cheapest and most efficient way possible. Atom economy and cost analysis are important here. In analytical chemistry, you have to use all kinds of spectroscopic methods to characterize your compound and you would work closely with discovery chemists to figure out what the mostly unknown compound is and what it does.

 

[jund-jitsu]

Thanks to your guys input and first hand experience ill be choosing classes tomorrow and sticking with the pre-med route.