University of Queensland?

[DarkProtonics]

I've heard about the interesting program that University of Queensland has with Ochsner Health System in New Orleans, where you complete your pre-clinical basic science portion at UQ, and do your clinical rotations at Ochsner, and graduate with an MBBS from UQ. Is anyone here planning to apply?

How respected is a University of Queensland MBBS degree in the States, and what kind of time would I have in finding an US internal medicine residency (I want to be an interventional cardiologist or a clinical cardiac electrophysiologist) after taking the USMLEs and getting ECFMG-certified? I know there are many well-respected medical academics here in the US who are Queensland alumni, like pediatric neurologist Dr Marc Patterson of Mayo Clinic Rochester.

It seems to me that US and Canadian medical students and junior doctors have a great deal more responsibility and power than their UK counterparts (I heard someone say the UK system had a lot of time wasting, with little responsibility for the first few years). Is Australia more like the US/Canada, or the UK, in this respect? Why is that? I've always wondered why specialist training in the UK was so prolonged compared to the US, Australia, and Canada.

Like UK cardiologists spend get 5-7 years of cardiology training, but seem to be on par with US/Canadian/Australian cardiologists, who only have three years of cardiology training (plus three years of general internal medicine training, which itself includes three months of cardiology).

Btw, once I'm back in the US getting post-graduate training, can I simply use "MD" instead of "MBBS", to avoid confusing my patients?

Thanks!

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[Winged Scapula]

How respected is a University of Queensland MBBS degree in the States,

The school hasn't had a graduate program taking US citizens for long, so there isn't much US presence (which is true for most of the Australian schools).

.... and what kind of time would I have in finding an US internal medicine residency (I want to be an interventional cardiologist or a clinical cardiac electrophysiologist) after taking the USMLEs and getting ECFMG-certified?

Internal Medicine is not, on the average, a very difficult residency to match into and you would stand as good a chance as anyone else depending on your USMLE scores. However, cardiology is a competitive fellowship and as I understand it, WHERE you do your residency is considered a factor. Thus, you would likely have to match into a better IM residency than those not considering such a competitive fellowship.

I know there are many well-respected medical academics here in the US who are Queensland alumni, like pediatric neurologist Dr Marc Patterson of Mayo Clinic Rochester.

You cannot compare yourself to Dr. Patterson who is an Aussie, trained in Australia and a member of the Royal College. While the Australian schools are excellent, the fact is, that as someone from North America, you are still an IMG; Dr. Patterson is different - he went to medical school in Australia because it was his home country. I am assuming you are looking at schools in Oz because you cannot get into one back at home. Totally different situation which will be recognized by U faculty.

It seems to me that US and Canadian medical students and junior doctors have a great deal more responsibility and power than their UK counterparts (I heard someone say the UK system had a lot of time wasting, with little responsibility for the first few years). Is Australia more like the US/Canada, or the UK, in this respect? Why is that? I've always wondered why specialist training in the UK was so prolonged compared to the US, Australia, and Canada.

Probably somewhere in the middle although somewhat closer to the UK. There is still a lot of things that are expected to be learned during internship that your US counterparts will have done during medical school.

Like UK cardiologists spend get 5-7 years of cardiology training, but seem to be on par with US/Canadian/Australian cardiologists, who only have three years of cardiology training (plus three years of general internal medicine training, which itself includes three months of cardiology).

Btw, once I'm back in the US getting post-graduate training, can I simply use "MD" instead of "MBBS", to avoid confusing my patients?

Thanks!

You can.

 

[DarkProtonics]

The school hasn't had a graduate program taking US citizens for long, so there isn't much US presence (which is true for most of the Australian schools).

I can always do the regular graduate-entry MBBS, if the one I'm thinking of falls through.

Internal Medicine is not, on the average, a very difficult residency to match into and you would stand as good a chance as anyone else depending on your USMLE scores. However, cardiology is a competitive fellowship and as I understand it, WHERE you do your residency is considered a factor. Thus, you would likely have to match into a better IM residency than those not considering such a competitive fellowship.

I'll try to get USMLE scores and clinical grades high enough for UCLA, UCSF, Mayo Clinic, and Cleveland Clinic.

You cannot compare yourself to Dr. Patterson who is an Aussie, trained in Australia and a member of the Royal College. While the Australian schools are excellent, the fact is, that as someone from North America, you are still an IMG; Dr. Patterson is different - he went to medical school in Australia because it was his home country. I am assuming you are looking at schools in Oz because you cannot get into one back at home. Totally different situation which will be recognized by U faculty.

I understand that. And the reason I want to go to med school in Australia is that it'll be less of a drain on my finances due to the exchange rate, the weather is nice, and I'll have a unique experience. And, unlike Carribean schools, I'll have quality education. Downside is that I'll be an IMG and have to study harder to pass the USMLEs and get ECFMG-certified. And my state medical schools have a HUGE backload of applicants.

Probably somewhere in the middle although somewhat closer to the UK. There is still a lot of things that are expected to be learned during internship that your US counterparts will have done during medical school.

Such as?

That's why I'll do an internal medicine sub-internship elective at one of the US teaching hospitals I wish to do my IM residency at, so I can prove that I can handle the responsibility.

 

[jaketheory]

as all the clinical rotations will occur in the US, your clinical training will likely resemble more that of US graduates rather than their Aussie counterparts that do an internship before applying to specialty training. that is, you may well get experience that those in Australia do not. I believe the Oschner system gets some medical students from a medical school in New Orleans already. They won't train you to be a doc in Australia. this is the whole reason this program has sprouted: UQ has recognized a market for which US students are seeking experience more aligned to their own system to give them an advantage in applying to residency.

if you think you want to go to UCLA, UCSF, Mayo Clinic, and Cleveland Clinic for IM, i suggest you check out their webpages. I'd look for how many IMG's they currently have. Some prestigous residencies set requirements for IMG's quite high. In the case you don't get one of your preferred spots, you should be prepared to go elsewhere.

You should also know that when applying to competitive fellowships they will not only look at where you did residencies, they will also consider where you went to medical school. This could possibly mean settling with no fellowship or reapplying year after year. A friend of mine that just graduated from a US allopathic school was telling me about how it took the husband of one of her fellow students, who is Indian, 6 years of reapplying to get a cardiology fellowship. not trying to compare Australian schools with Indians schools, but just making a point.

furthermore, some competitive fellowships will even require your undergrad transcripts (and i'm not talking undergrad medical education). i've seen this for an ortho program; it maybe the norm for ortho.

 

[Winged Scapula]

as all the clinical rotations will occur in the US, your clinical training will likely resemble more that of US graduates rather than their Aussie counterparts that do an internship before applying to specialty training. that is, you may well get experience that those in Australia do not. I believe the Oschner system gets some medical students from a medical school in New Orleans already. They won't train you to be a doc in Australia. this is the whole reason this program has sprouted: UQ has recognized a market for which US students are seeking experience more aligned to their own system to give them an advantage in applying to residency.

Good point...I forgot we were talking about the Oschner program. Therefore, you should get the typical US "hands-on" experience compared to that of Australia.

...if you think you want to go to UCLA, UCSF, Mayo Clinic, and Cleveland Clinic for IM, i suggest you check out their webpages. I'd look for how many IMG's they currently have. Some prestigous residencies set requirements for IMG's quite high. In the case you don't get one of your preferred spots, you should be prepared to go elsewhere.

Agreed. Please do not go to medical school outside of the US if you have your heart set on residencies of this caliber. These are some of the most competitive residency programs in the US and they do not take IMGs with anything approaching regularity. Regardless of whether or not you did your last two years in the US, you will still be an IMG.

UCLA does not have a single IMG or FMG in its IM program; its residents come from Harvard, Yale, UCSF, UCLA, U of Michigan, Northwestern, Georgetown, etc.

UCSF's list is even more impressive with lots of Ivy League medical students represented and others from Duke, UCSF, UCLA, etc.

Cleveland Clinic is less impressive, with a lot of midwest medical students, but again there are no IMGs/FMGs.

The Mayo doesn't list its residents but I am willing to bet that their match list is no different than those above.

You should also know that when applying to competitive fellowships they will not only look at where you did residencies, they will also consider where you went to medical school. This could possibly mean settling with no fellowship or reapplying year after year. A friend of mine that just graduated from a US allopathic school was telling me about how it took the husband of one of her fellow students, who is Indian, 6 years of reapplying to get a cardiology fellowship. not trying to compare Australian schools with Indians schools, but just making a point.

furthermore, some competitive fellowships will even require your undergrad transcripts (and i'm not talking undergrad medical education). i've seen this for an ortho program; it maybe the norm for ortho.

This is not a hard a fast rule, but yes, the most competitive programs sometimes do ask for such things. A couple of PRS programs I applied to asked for my MCAT scores and undergraduate transcripts.

So to the OP, go to Australia if you understand that even with the best USMLE scores and US experience, you will still be an IMG and some residency programs will not entertain your application because of that factor.

 

[DarkProtonics]

Good point...I forgot we were talking about the Oschner program. Therefore, you should get the typical US "hands-on" experience compared to that of Australia.



Agreed. Please do not go to medical school outside of the US if you have your heart set on residencies of this caliber. These are some of the most competitive residency programs in the US and they do not take IMGs with anything approaching regularity. Regardless of whether or not you did your last two years in the US, you will still be an IMG.

UCLA does not have a single IMG or FMG in its IM program; its residents come from Harvard, Yale, UCSF, UCLA, U of Michigan, Northwestern, Georgetown, etc.

UCSF's list is even more impressive with lots of Ivy League medical students represented and others from Duke, UCSF, UCLA, etc.

Cleveland Clinic is less impressive, with a lot of midwest medical students, but again there are no IMGs/FMGs.

The Mayo doesn't list its residents but I am willing to bet that their match list is no different than those above.



This is not a hard a fast rule, but yes, the most competitive programs sometimes do ask for such things. A couple of PRS programs I applied to asked for my MCAT scores and undergraduate transcripts.

So to the OP, go to Australia if you understand that even with the best USMLE scores and US experience, you will still be an IMG and some residency programs will not entertain your application because of that factor.

Why is there such a prejudice against IMGs; there are many highly-trained foreign physicians that wish to practice here. And competition will drive healthcare prices down. They should have residency apllications blinded to the applicant's country of origin and medical school, and just have their LORs and USMLE scores looked at.

Currently I'm completing GE and lower division major reqs at Orange Coast College. I'm also earning my echocardiography qualification so I can work in a clinical field to partly pay for my BS degree in Cell and Molecular Biology at CSULB, and gain valuable clinical experience in patient care. So I've got time before taking the MCAT to decide where I want to go for med school.

I'll apply to US med schools as my first choice, of course. I really want to go to UCLA for med school. That's why I'll enter into UCLA's PREP program as soon as I'm able to, to prepare me for the MCAT.

I also have a back-up career if I can't get into medical school: I'll either start my own echocardiography practice, or earn my MS/PhD and become a research scientist in the biopharmaceutical industry.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Why is there such a prejudice against IMGs; there are many highly-trained foreign physicians that wish to practice here. And competition will drive healthcare prices down. They should have residency apllications blinded to the applicant's country of origin and medical school, and just have their LORs and USMLE scores looked at.

You will find a lot of Americans, whose tax dollars go to fund graduate medical education, would abhor such an idea. In addition, with increasing number of US citizens educated in the US going unmatched, you will not be able to sell the vast majority of the medical community that should ignore country of origin.

Some of the bias is the belief that everything in the US is the best. We know this isn't true, but the blinders many Americans have on extends to the medical community.

Couple that with an inability to judge a medical education abroad and the knowledge that almost all US citizens who go abroad for med school do so because they couldn't get into a US school and you have the prejudice. In many cases, its well founded but others will take a well educated FMG over an AMG in the right situation.

FYI: please check into the undergraduate schools for medical students at the UCs. Back in the old days it was rare for them to take anyone from a Cal State program (being from one myself); almost all successful applicants were from another UC or Ivy League. It might be worth it to go to a UC for undergrad rather than CSULB.

Best of luck to you...

 

[DarkProtonics]

You will find a lot of Americans, whose tax dollars go to fund graduate medical education, would abhor such an idea. In addition, with increasing number of US citizens educated in the US going unmatched, you will not be able to sell the vast majority of the medical community that should ignore country of origin.

Some of the bias is the belief that everything in the US is the best. We know this isn't true, but the blinders many Americans have on extends to the medical community.

Couple that with an inability to judge a medical education abroad and the knowledge that almost all US citizens who go abroad for med school do so because they couldn't get into a US school and you have the prejudice. In many cases, its well founded but others will take a well educated FMG over an AMG in the right situation.

FYI: please check into the undergraduate schools for medical students at the UCs. Back in the old days it was rare for them to take anyone from a Cal State program (being from one myself); almost all successful applicants were from another UC or Ivy League. It might be worth it to go to a UC for undergrad rather than CSULB.

Best of luck to you...

I plan on transferring to a UC in my junior year at CSULB.

And Australia (and the UK, France, India, and Germany) have some of the best doctors in the world. Why would residency admission officers think their medical education is inferior?

 

[Winged Scapula]

I plan on transferring to a UC in my junior year at CSULB.

Good plan.

And Australia (and the UK, France, India, and Germany) have some of the best doctors in the world. Why would residency admission officers think their medical education is inferior?

Its not that they necessarily think the education is inferior; many know that Australia produces excellent physicians. There are many Aussies working in the US.

However, many US faculty have no concept of education outside of the US and what it entails and whether you are on par with US medical students. They are looking to hire someone who will fit into the AMERICAN medical system. Students trained outside of the US will not fit in as seamlessly as AMGs. I am a graduate of an Aussie school, so take my word on that.

The issue is that if they have never had an Aussie resident, it is an unknown commodity. This is generally not the issue with an AMG. Couple that with their belief that the only reason you studied abroad was because you couldn't get into a US school, and you have some bias.

Remember we are not talking about an Australian citizen, educated in Australia (with its excellent primary and secondary school systems) and then coming to the US to practice. These individuals are looked at entirely differently than you will be.

I'm not saying its fair or that it exists at every program, but with residency spots tightening and US grads increasing, it is only going to get harder for IMGs to get a US position and you need to understand that the bias exists, fair or not.

 

[DarkProtonics]

Good plan.



Its not that they necessarily think the education is inferior; many know that Australia produces excellent physicians. There are many Aussies working in the US.

However, many US faculty have no concept of education outside of the US and what it entails and whether you are on par with US medical students. They are looking to hire someone who will fit into the AMERICAN medical system. Students trained outside of the US will not fit in as seamlessly as AMGs. I am a graduate of an Aussie school, so take my word on that.

The issue is that if they have never had an Aussie resident, it is an unknown commodity. This is generally not the issue with an AMG. Couple that with their belief that the only reason you studied abroad was because you couldn't get into a US school, and you have some bias.

Remember we are not talking about an Australian citizen, educated in Australia (with its excellent primary and secondary school systems) and then coming to the US to practice. These individuals are looked at entirely differently than you will be.

I'm not saying its fair or that it exists at every program, but with residency spots tightening and US grads increasing, it is only going to get harder for IMGs to get a US position and you need to understand that the bias exists, fair or not.

Well, I know this bias exists now, so if I end up having to go overseas for medical school, I'll make that much more of an effort to get outstanding grades in the basic sciences and clinical components, and excellent USMLE scores. Plus outstanding LORs from the US institutions I do my internal medicine and cardiology electives at.

 

[Winged Scapula]

FYI:

your grades from basic sciences and from any foreign school will essentially be ignored. That doesn't mean you shouldn't work hard, but preclinical grades fall far down on the list of things most residency programs look at when evaluating your application.

Currently its USMLE, USMLE, USMLE...so that is where the bulk of your focus should be (as well as getting LORs from your US clinical rotations).

 

[DarkProtonics]

FYI:

your grades from basic sciences and from any foreign school will essentially be ignored. That doesn't mean you shouldn't work hard, but preclinical grades fall far down on the list of things most residency programs look at when evaluating your application.

Currently its USMLE, USMLE, USMLE...so that is where the bulk of your focus should be (as well as getting LORs from your US clinical rotations).

Is that true for US applicants as well, that they ignore your basic sciences grades? Is that b/c, unless you're applying for a pathology residency, they're not important in determining whether you'd perform well?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Is that true for US applicants as well, that they ignore your basic sciences grades? Is that b/c, unless you're applying for a pathology residency, they're not important in determining whether you'd perform well?

It is generally true for all medical students that basic science grades are not nearly as important as clinical science grades and USMLEs. For FMGs/IMGs, it is probably even less so because of the lack of knowledge about how these are taught and the rigor of grading.

It isn't so much that the basic sciences aren't important but that the USMLE Step 1 is a test everyone takes, so its a standardized measure.

 

[DarkProtonics]

It is generally true for all medical students that basic science grades are not nearly as important as clinical science grades and USMLEs. For FMGs/IMGs, it is probably even less so because of the lack of knowledge about how these are taught and the rigor of grading.

It isn't so much that the basic sciences aren't important but that the USMLE Step 1 is a test everyone takes, so its a standardized measure.

Ah.

After I earn my echocardiography qualification and work for a year part-time while finishing up my basic pre-med science reqs (and getting my GPA up to a 3.5, scoring high on the SATs, and scoring high on the UKCAT), I'll apply to the 5-year MBChB courses at University of Aberdeen, University of St Andrews, University of Edinburgh, and University of Glasgow in Scotland, just to see if I can get in.

If I can get admitted, excellent! I'll be on my way to becoming a physician. If I can't, I'll stay here and complete my BS in Cell and Molecular Biology, take the MCAT, and apply to medical schools both in the US. Something tells me the latter is more likely.

 

[redshifteffect]

Ah.

After I earn my echocardiography qualification and work for a year part-time while finishing up my basic pre-med science reqs (and getting my GPA up to a 3.5, scoring high on the SATs, and scoring high on the UKCAT), I'll apply to the 5-year MBChB courses at University of Aberdeen, University of St Andrews, University of Edinburgh, and University of Glasgow in Scotland, just to see if I can get in.

If I can get admitted, excellent! I'll be on my way to becoming a physician. If I can't, I'll stay here and complete my BS in Cell and Molecular Biology, take the MCAT, and apply to medical schools both in the US. Something tells me the latter is more likely.

DarkProtonics,

Not sure if you realise this but there are 5-6 year MBBS programs available in Australia as well. I think the overall cost would be cheaper to attend one of these programs then the equivalent program in the UK.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Ah.

After I earn my echocardiography qualification and work for a year part-time while finishing up my basic pre-med science reqs (and getting my GPA up to a 3.5, scoring high on the SATs, and scoring high on the UKCAT), I'll apply to the 5-year MBChB courses at University of Aberdeen, University of St Andrews, University of Edinburgh, and University of Glasgow in Scotland, just to see if I can get in.

If I can get admitted, excellent! I'll be on my way to becoming a physician. If I can't, I'll stay here and complete my BS in Cell and Molecular Biology, take the MCAT, and apply to medical schools both in the US. Something tells me the latter is more likely.

While I wish you the best of luck, I think it a big mistake to go abroad without first trying to get into school in the US, if your goal is to return to the US to practice.

 

[DarkProtonics]

While I wish you the best of luck, I think it a big mistake to go abroad without first trying to get into school in the US, if your goal is to return to the US to practice.

Yeah I know.

If I can't get into US med school, I'll apply to St George's in Grenada (their graduates have matched into excellent US IM and surgery residencies, like UCLA, Drexel, Hershey, and USC).

 

[MedStar]

Winged Scapula

You seem to have done pretty well for an Australian graduate.

Are you an American that came to Australia for medical school or an Australian that went to America after graduating medical school?

If you are an American that came to medical school in Australia, why did you do so? Did you not get in to an American medical school?

Was it difficult for you to get a residency post in America?

Also did you not wish to stay here in Australia? What was your reason(s)/motivation for going back to America?

Cheers

 

[Darklord]

I am currently touring Australia, and am very impressed with the country (infrastructure, cities, and friendly people)-and I would be interested in keeping the U of Q's program as a viable option. I would like to here more about the program as well.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

I've been interested in this program for several months now and had some minor application questions that I don't know where to direct. Has anyone from the US gone through the application process and can explain their experience?

I emailed International Pathways but didn't get a reply. I will try to call them tomorrow before I try calling UQ.

 

[shan564]

If you want to ask questions about UQ, talk to OzTREKK. They'll know everything.

Also, we can answer specific questions for you, but "explaining their experience" is a pretty time-consuming task. OzTREKK makes it really easy if you just want to apply to UQ.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

If you want to ask questions about UQ, talk to OzTREKK. They'll know everything.

Also, we can answer specific questions for you, but "explaining their experience" is a pretty time-consuming task. OzTREKK makes it really easy if you just want to apply to UQ.

I found that other thread which OzTrekk was mentioned. I called them today and Matt was extremely helpful.

I am currently applying through OzTrekk now and hope it goes well. My previous MCAT score is from August 2005 and Matt said that no one has been accepted with a score that old. I am about to sit for the July 31st MCAT and will provide that score.

Currently, UQ is the only school with seats available for the 2010 year. Melbourne is reorganizing their program and Monash is closed for the 2010 year. I will be sure to apply to those programs as well for 2011 when available.

 

[shan564]

I also took the MCAT in August 2005, and I had to re-take it to apply for entry in January 2009 (sent the application in March/April 2008). So yeah, you'll definitely have to retake it.

UQ's admissions are essentially rolling, so it'll be hard to get in at this stage. The MCAT score still takes at least 2-3 weeks to get back, so you won't be able to send in your application until mid-August. Of course, UQ does like to accept as many international students as possible (lots of money for them), so you might still be alright.

When you apply for 2011, you should also consider USyd and Flinders; they accept a lot more internationals than Melb and Monash. ANU and Wollongong also take a few international students.

If you tell us your previous MCAT score (or your expected score based on practice tests), we can advise you based on that too.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

I also took the MCAT in August 2005, and I had to re-take it to apply for entry in January 2009 (sent the application in March/April 2008). So yeah, you'll definitely have to retake it.

UQ's admissions are essentially rolling, so it'll be hard to get in at this stage. The MCAT score still takes at least 2-3 weeks to get back, so you won't be able to send in your application until mid-August. Of course, UQ does like to accept as many international students as possible (lots of money for them), so you might still be alright.

When you apply for 2011, you should also consider USyd and Flinders; they accept a lot more internationals than Melb and Monash. ANU and Wollongong also take a few international students.

If you tell us your previous MCAT score (or your expected score based on practice tests), we can advise you based on that too.

My previous MCAT score was a 29M.

I would definitely consider both USyd and Flinders, I just didn't see them on OzTrekk's site. At this point UQ has a major advantage as it has 2 years of rotations back in Louisiana with Oschner.

What also concerns me is the preparation for the USMLE's. Is this a concern for others as well and what is their resolution with it? I'm hoping to find some teaching program like Kaplan or something to help guide me; whether its computer based, in class (unlikely), or just book based.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

I also took the MCAT in August 2005, and I had to re-take it to apply for entry in January 2009 (sent the application in March/April 2008). So yeah, you'll definitely have to retake it.

UQ's admissions are essentially rolling, so it'll be hard to get in at this stage. The MCAT score still takes at least 2-3 weeks to get back, so you won't be able to send in your application until mid-August. Of course, UQ does like to accept as many international students as possible (lots of money for them), so you might still be alright.

When you apply for 2011, you should also consider USyd and Flinders; they accept a lot more internationals than Melb and Monash. ANU and Wollongong also take a few international students.

If you tell us your previous MCAT score (or your expected score based on practice tests), we can advise you based on that too.

BTW are you from the States? How has it been over in at USyd? I imagine it would be awesome. I love the city.

When I spoke with Matt from OzTrekk he only asked me about my MCAT score, is that the main determining factor?

 

[shan564]

I'm from the US, yes.

At UQ, your MCAT score is the only thing that matters for admission, as long as your GPA is above 2.7. USyd also considers an interview (which is scored objectively), and the other schools weigh the GPA equally with the MCAT and interview.

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the pros and cons of the UQ-Oschner program on these forums. I'd suggest looking through those threads (you'll probably see them if you search for "oschner" on the forums) before you make a decision. A lot of people are concerned that UQ's reputation will slip now that their admissions standards have dropped. Others have reported bad experiences with UQ graduates, especially since they're now trying to accommodate 500 students in only two clinical schools.
On the other hand, some people would like to spend 2 years in the US. You should consider that those 2 years won't have a huge impact in terms of residencies, since most schools allow you to do two electives in your home country (6 months), which most people consider to be more than adequate to get a couple of American rec letters (that's the main reason why people want to do rotations in the US).

Another factor to consider... if you were to get another 29, UQ might be your only choice anyway. I know one person who got into USyd with a 29, but he probably had an exceptional interview (knowing him, I'd be surprised if his interview was anything short of stellar). Hopefully though, you'll have more options.

 

[pitman]

A lot of people are concerned that UQ's reputation will slip now that their admissions standards have dropped. Others have reported bad experiences with UQ graduates, especially since they're now trying to accommodate 500 students in only two clinical schools.

I'm no cheerleader for UQ, though I don't have any major qualms with it, but I think it's necessary to challenge the assertion that UQ's "admissions standards have dropped". How? According to whom? Since when? Based on what stats? Is it inferred by the increase in class size? Meanwhile, others think the Oschner program will enhance UQ's reputation (I am one, but I admit it will ultimately depend on how prejudicial people will tend to be).

I'm also skeptical of unqualified reporting of some having bad experiences with UQ grads -- really? More so than any other school? From clinical supervisors who bemoan the nation-wide curriculum changes? From the Canadian supervisors of those returning? From an anecdote here or there, or from something measurable?

Just be careful with the qualifications, and aware of where and how opinions are shaped.

 

[Meddie83]

My personal opinion - Don't apply through Oztrekk. Just apply to the schools themselves or through ACER. Involving a middle man can be quite annoying and as far as I"m concerned there is no reason for.

 

[shan564]

There are two reasons to use OzTREKK:
1. They waive the application fee for you.
2. You can only apply to one "primary preference" school via ACER. OzTREKK allows you to have several options.

I agree that UQ has plenty of positives. I just wanted him to make sure that he considers the negatives, since a lot of people tend to disregard them at times. I didn't feel like writing out a long unbiased post (since I've done it before somewhere, can't remember the thread), so I figured I'd just outline the potential issues.

As far as admissions standards dropping, that data is available somewhere through ACER, but I haven't actually seen it (just heard it). Also, I've seen a lot of people on these forums saying that they got into UQ with a 26 or 27 on the MCAT.

The Oschner program is a complicated trade-off. If you look at the direct effects, I'm sure that it will be a big plus for a lot of people who want to go back to the US. I strongly considered it for the same reason. The main reason why I dismissed it was because I don't like the idea: the advantage that Australian schools have over Caribbean schools (in my mind) is the fact that they exist primarily for the purpose of training Australian doctors, not for making money. The Oschner program, on the other hand, is clearly not there to train Australian doctors, and I'm concerned that a for-profit educational model is inherently flawed. When the school's primary purpose is to make money rather than to educate its students, then it starts to make decisions based on making money rather than educating its students.

Also, because of the Oschner program, I'm concerned that program directors in the US might see UQ as "another offshore school" in the US. Meanwhile, you're not building any contacts in Australia, so it'll be harder to get an internship/residency here if you want to.

Of course, I'm probably just being paranoid and nitpicking little details... but those are just some of the reasons why I chose USyd over UQ. Everybody can make their own decision.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

There are two reasons to use OzTREKK:
1. They waive the application fee for you.
2. You can only apply to one "primary preference" school via ACER. OzTREKK allows you to have several options.

I agree that UQ has plenty of positives. I just wanted him to make sure that he considers the negatives, since a lot of people tend to disregard them at times. I didn't feel like writing out a long unbiased post (since I've done it before somewhere, can't remember the thread), so I figured I'd just outline the potential issues.

As far as admissions standards dropping, that data is available somewhere through ACER, but I haven't actually seen it (just heard it). Also, I've seen a lot of people on these forums saying that they got into UQ with a 26 or 27 on the MCAT.

The Oschner program is a complicated trade-off. If you look at the direct effects, I'm sure that it will be a big plus for a lot of people who want to go back to the US. I strongly considered it for the same reason. The main reason why I dismissed it was because I don't like the idea: the advantage that Australian schools have over Caribbean schools (in my mind) is the fact that they exist primarily for the purpose of training Australian doctors, not for making money. The Oschner program, on the other hand, is clearly not there to train Australian doctors, and I'm concerned that a for-profit educational model is inherently flawed. When the school's primary purpose is to make money rather than to educate its students, then it starts to make decisions based on making money rather than educating its students.

Also, because of the Oschner program, I'm concerned that program directors in the US might see UQ as "another offshore school" in the US. Meanwhile, you're not building any contacts in Australia, so it'll be harder to get an internship/residency here if you want to.

Of course, I'm probably just being paranoid and nitpicking little details... but those are just some of the reasons why I chose USyd over UQ. Everybody can make their own decision.

Thanks for the great info, I really hope my score improves from a 29 so that I could be considered for USyd. One concern I have with USyd as with any other university other than UQ is that there is no connection to the US for rotations. You were saying that its possible to do 2 electives in the US... how easy is it to set that up? Is that what you plan on doing? What MCAT score would you consider is sufficient to get in USyd, assuming an average interview? Thanks!

 

[SFs Own Tone]

I'm no cheerleader for UQ, though I don't have any major qualms with it, but I think it's necessary to challenge the assertion that UQ's "admissions standards have dropped". How? According to whom? Since when? Based on what stats? Is it inferred by the increase in class size? Meanwhile, others think the Oschner program will enhance UQ's reputation (I am one, but I admit it will ultimately depend on how prejudicial people will tend to be).

I'm also skeptical of unqualified reporting of some having bad experiences with UQ grads -- really? More so than any other school? From clinical supervisors who bemoan the nation-wide curriculum changes? From the Canadian supervisors of those returning? From an anecdote here or there, or from something measurable?

Just be careful with the qualifications, and aware of where and how opinions are shaped.

It sounds like you're at UQ. How do you like it? Are you doing the Oschner program? What was your compelling factor in going to UQ?

Thanks!

 

[SFs Own Tone]

My personal opinion - Don't apply through Oztrekk. Just apply to the schools themselves or through ACER. Involving a middle man can be quite annoying and as far as I"m concerned there is no reason for.

My experience has been quite the contrary. It has been extremely helpful having someone experienced to assist and answer any questions. In addition to the fee being waived, they can offer advice for several universities.

 

[shan564]

Thanks for the great info, I really hope my score improves from a 29 so that I could be considered for USyd. One concern I have with USyd as with any other university other than UQ is that there is no connection to the US for rotations. You were saying that its possible to do 2 electives in the US... how easy is it to set that up? Is that what you plan on doing? What MCAT score would you consider is sufficient to get in USyd, assuming an average interview? Thanks!

Setting up electives in the US is very easy. USyd has formal relationships with Cornell and Columbia medical schools in New York, and they give annual scholarships to a few students to go there. If you don't get one of those scholarships, a lot of med schools offer options for rotations... it seems like everybody ends up getting one if they want one.

I'm not sure if that's what I plan on doing. If I decide that I'd rather stay in Australia (I'm about 50-50 at the moment), then I think I'd rather do my international rotations in a country that's significantly different from what I'm used to (for the experience). USyd has formal arrangements in Vietnam, South Africa, Indonesia, and a few other countries... I might also try to do one in Pakistan, since I have a lot of family there.

I had a 35 on the MCAT, but I know plenty of people who got in with low 30's. A lot of people also got in with high 50's or low 60's on the GAMSAT, which is similar to 30ish on the MCAT. USyd doesn't release their interview scores, so it's impossible to say the exact combination you'd need... but you might have a decent shot with a 30-31. You'd have a chance with a 29 and a good interview, but I wouldn't feel too comfortable about it.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

Setting up electives in the US is very easy. USyd has formal relationships with Cornell and Columbia medical schools in New York, and they give annual scholarships to a few students to go there. If you don't get one of those scholarships, a lot of med schools offer options for rotations... it seems like everybody ends up getting one if they want one.

I'm not sure if that's what I plan on doing. If I decide that I'd rather stay in Australia (I'm about 50-50 at the moment), then I think I'd rather do my international rotations in a country that's significantly different from what I'm used to (for the experience). USyd has formal arrangements in Vietnam, South Africa, Indonesia, and a few other countries... I might also try to do one in Pakistan, since I have a lot of family there.

I had a 35 on the MCAT, but I know plenty of people who got in with low 30's. A lot of people also got in with high 50's or low 60's on the GAMSAT, which is similar to 30ish on the MCAT. USyd doesn't release their interview scores, so it's impossible to say the exact combination you'd need... but you might have a decent shot with a 30-31. You'd have a chance with a 29 and a good interview, but I wouldn't feel too comfortable about it.

Great info man.

What about the USMLE's. Concerns in preparing for that?

 

[shan564]

Great info man.

What about the USMLE's. Concerns in preparing for that?

The USMLE pass rates for Australia are about the same as any country outside the US/Canada (including the Caribbean), but that number might be artificially deflated because a lot of Australians just take it without preparing much (they're planning on staying in Australia, but they're just taking the USMLE to keep theri options open). The curriculum isn't designed primarily to prepare you for the USMLE, and some people say that you'll need to spend some extra time studying the basic sciences (which is OK for me, since med school here seems to be much less time-consuming in the first place). Recently, USyd went through a massive review of their curriculum and is now focusing more on the basic sciences, particularly anatomy; I think Melbourne is also doing something similar, and UQ is supposed to follow Melbourne's curriculum.

Overall, it's not something that concerns me too much. I've looked at some USMLE practice questions (for the topics that we've already covered in our curriculum), and it doesn't seem too bad. Of course, that's just a personal opinion.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

The USMLE pass rates for Australia are about the same as any country outside the US/Canada (including the Caribbean), but that number might be artificially deflated because a lot of Australians just take it without preparing much (they're planning on staying in Australia, but they're just taking the USMLE to keep theri options open). The curriculum isn't designed primarily to prepare you for the USMLE, and some people say that you'll need to spend some extra time studying the basic sciences (which is OK for me, since med school here seems to be much less time-consuming in the first place). Recently, USyd went through a massive review of their curriculum and is now focusing more on the basic sciences, particularly anatomy; I think Melbourne is also doing something similar, and UQ is supposed to follow Melbourne's curriculum.

Overall, it's not something that concerns me too much. I've looked at some USMLE practice questions (for the topics that we've already covered in our curriculum), and it doesn't seem too bad. Of course, that's just a personal opinion.

Great to hear! Your info has been really helpful, and if all else falls through. I will just retake my mcat and improve my chances for USyd. To be honest, I wish I had known more about Australian schools as an option. Its definitely preferred over the carribean schools.

 

[shan564]

Great to hear! Your info has been really helpful, and if all else falls through. I will just retake my mcat and improve my chances for USyd. To be honest, I wish I had known more about Australian schools as an option. Its definitely preferred over the carribean schools.

Yeah, I know what you mean... if I'd known that Australia was an option, I would have come down here a year (or maybe even two years) earlier.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

Yeah, I know what you mean... if I'd known that Australia was an option, I would have come down here a year (or maybe even two years) earlier.

Out of curiousity, why did you choose to go down to Oz?

I myself have several reasons:
1) Schools in the US are extremely competitive and an acceptance is never guaranteed
2) I've travelled to Australia many times and have loved the culture and lifestyle - i actually think America would be well served to adopt several aspects of Australian culture (taking public transportation, reduced fast food consumption, and general attitude)
3) The schools in Australia are training doctors that they would ultimately use themselves unlike Caribbean which produce doctors for other countries and have no vested interest in the quality of doctors other than for future financial gain.
4) I love to travel and learn more about other ways of living outside the US; I think it would add to my personal character and knowledge of healthcare.

 

[pitman]

As far as admissions standards dropping, that data is available somewhere through ACER, but I haven't actually seen it (just heard it). Also, I've seen a lot of people on these forums saying that they got into UQ with a 26 or 27 on the MCAT.

I don't think ACER publishes admission stats of accepted students. Could be wrong, but that would have been a BIG change that I'd think all schools would have boycotted (and their blessing would be necessary), for a variety of reasons. The *cutoffs* are there, however.

The MCAT cuttoff at UQ for int'ls was (as far back as 2003), and still is I believe, 24 (8 8 8). Of course that was when there was an interview. Every class admitted from 2004 to at least 2007 had a few near that cutoff, most in the high 20s to low 30s, and some in the mid to high 30s. The average has generally been in the high 20s, though for classes after 2005 -- the last year when I've seen some stats -- I'd have to rely on my personal knowledge of the int'ls.

The past two years though have seen a huge increase in int'l student numbers, and I've graduated and thus know far fewer of the students. So anything's *possible* with respect to scores.

But in trying to determine admission standards, I'd be careful of selection bias (e.g., those who post on the forums) and the other inherent probs of anecdotes, and of people potentially lying about scores (theirs or others -- it goes both ways, I admit).

My point is, I don't think there's any reason to believe that admission standards have gone down. Yes, there are more int'ls at UQ now, and Canadians among them, but then again, through marketing and word of mouth and general trends, more are aware of the programs, and probably ever more excellent Canadian candidates are being rejected from Canadian schools. There are also more Americans applying, because of the Oschner program. The standards could have actually gone up. But from my experience of past years, year to year averages tend to vary very little, even when the number accepted doubles.

It's sort of like Global Warming Theory I think -- many people first believe it, then try to explain their observations (er, computer models) by it: "Katrina was an example of Global Warming", or, "The hot summer was caused by global warming". That just makes no sense. Even if the worst Global Warming alarmist theory is true, it's about a very gradual increase in temps, which *ultimately* *might* cause a radical change (a 'cataclysm').

Admissions stats don't tend to jump radically. Schools just don't do that. Any change will be small, with trends which really can't be inferred from anecdotes or other samples limited in place and time.

That's my take at least.

 

[pitman]

It sounds like you're at UQ. How do you like it? Are you doing the Oschner program? What was your compelling factor in going to UQ?

Thanks!

I graduated 2007. I like the idea of the Oschner program from a marketing perspective, and I'm interested in and optimistic about how it will change things. But I don't know what will happen. So much of reputation is based on hearsay, and these days with chat boards and FB and sub-/mini-communities, anything could happen. I do know that when I was applying to Australian schools in 2003, there was a LOT of chatter (here and at ValueMD) claiming the schools sucked, no one could get back to the US, and so on. That chatter had an effect on tone, and on prevailing beliefs, and it probably dissuaded a lot of really good potential candidates. And the chatter then was all crap. It was full of it.

Cornell opened a school in Qatar. Man, the trash that people talked about that program and about Cornell, claiming it would destroy Cornell's cred. Huh? Sound familiar?

I chose UQ after flying out here and interviewing at UQ, Flinders, and USyd. At USyd the interviewers (dean of students and dean of admissions) were seriously pretentious pricks, and it was obvious by the end of the interview that we didn't want anything to do with each other. Flinders was a great program, and the interview and the dean were awesome, but I didn't like Adelaide. UQ was large even back then, but I thought the school was trying to accommodate its int'ls and welcomed efforts to help them. Brisbane was also incredibly friendly from the moment I stepped off the plane. So in the end, I chose UQ, and I'm still in Brisbane working now as a JHO.

At any rate, I'm not bashing USyd, nor Adelaide. I just had my own experiences and went with what I felt like doing. And it was a good choice for me.

 

[pitman]

Recently, USyd went through a massive review of their curriculum and is now focusing more on the basic sciences, particularly anatomy; I think Melbourne is also doing something similar, and UQ is supposed to follow Melbourne's curriculum.

Shan, I'm not sure where you're getting your info about UQ from, but it's curriculum is in no way following or otherwise based on Melbourne's! Melbourne is just now becoming a grad program, and as an undergrad program (as in, for school-leavers), there really wasn't much to compare -- it's apples and oranges!

 

[shan564]

Shan, I'm not sure where you're getting your info about UQ from, but it's curriculum is in no way following or otherwise based on Melbourne's! Melbourne is just now becoming a grad program, and as an undergrad program (as in, for school-leavers), there really wasn't much to compare -- it's apples and oranges!

I might be remembering incorrectly; I thought I saw something about that on their website back when I was researching schools, but their website has changed since then.

I should mention that most of what I've said about UQ is just based on general impressions. A lot of it is not supported by any hard evidence. Many of the benefits (especially with the Oschner program) are obvious. Everything has pros and cons, so I was just making sure that the OP understands the potential cons. I had actually originally accepted my offer at UQ (it was very difficult for me to decide between UQ and USyd, and it ended up being a very close call), but I wasn't planning on going to the Oschner program. I was concerned that if I went to Oschner, then residency/internship directors in both America and Australia would get the impression that I just went to an offshore medical school that carts its students back to the US (just like the Caribbean). Maybe I'm just being paranoid... but the primary reason to do American rotations is to get American rec letters, and 1-2 electives in the US is enough for that, so I didn't want to take the risk. Also, RBH and Princess Alexandra are reputable Brisbane teaching hospitals; Oschner, on the other hand, has no experience with training medical students. If you think there's any possibility that you'll practice in Australia, you'll need to do a few clinical rotations here so that you can build connections. A lot of the pros and cons have been discussed in this thread:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=575077&highlight=oschner

pitman - Melbourne has had a graduate-entry medical option for a few years now (they had both undergrad and graduate medical programs), but they've recently changed it from 4.5 years to 4 years and eliminated the undergrad option. I believe that it was originally 2 years of basic sciences and 2.5 years of clinicals.
http://www.medicine.unimelb.edu.au/future/intro.html

As far as UQ's admissions process, I just felt like it was too easy for me to get in. I just sent in an application and they sent me an acceptance a few weeks later. It might be that people on the forums were lying about their scores, but I can't imagine why somebody would say that their score was lower than it actually was.
Yes, admissions standards usually change slowly rather than rapidly... but that's because class sizes usually change slowly. I think (I'm not sure) that UQ's international class size has increased by 200% in the last two years (60 to 100 to 180). I'm not sure about the first number, but I know that it's gone from 100 to 180 in the last year. Sure, their applicant pool has probably increased, but I doubt that it went up by 200%.

Regardless of all that, UQ is still a good school. They're ranked highly in any international ranking systems and they're generally accepted as being up to par with any other university in Australia. I don't think their quality is inferior in any way. The reason why I chose not to pay an extra $10,000/yr for USyd is because I'm concerned about the reasons behind a lot of UQ's recent policy decisions; I was afraid that those decisions might (MIGHT) bode poorly for their future, but that's certainly not the most likely situation. I often get the feeling that I'm wasting the extra money and that I should have just gone to UQ, but I just didn't want to take the chance. It was a difficult decision, and I could have gone either way.

Also, I took a survey of a lot of Americans (particularly doctors) who I know, and they usually have a more positive opinion of USyd and Melb than UQ or Flinders or Monash. I think that those opinions are completely unsubstantiated and are probably based entirely on the fact that most Americans have never heard of a place called Queensland, but everybody knows about Sydney and Melbourne. Still, considering that those are the same doctors who will be someday deciding whether I get admission into their residency program, I figured that it's something that I should consider. You might want to try taking the same survey.

 

[pitman]

I should mention that most of what I've said about UQ is just based on general impressions. A lot of it is not supported by any hard evidence.

Which is why I took you to task -- when you say something like "...now that their admissions standards have dropped", that's an assertion of fact. But I appreciate the qualification.

Oschner, on the other hand, has no experience with training medical students.

Hm. They train a few hundred Tulane and LSU clinical students each year.

pitman - Melbourne has had a graduate-entry medical option for a few years now (they had both undergrad and graduate medical programs), but they've recently changed it from 4.5 years to 4 years and eliminated the undergrad option. I believe that it was originally 2 years of basic sciences and 2.5 years of clinicals.

Yes, I should have said they've only recently gone graduate (and they're only now becoming strictly graduate) -- their grad program is newer than UQ's, so it's hard for UQ's to have followed; and their cases are not the same, which is usually how the schools emulate each other. Melbourne has also had more basic sciences in the first two years of their [current] grad program, though with the new one they're becoming more integrated by doing biomed for 1 year, then clinical for 3 years.

As far as UQ's admissions process, I just felt like it was too easy for me to get in. I just sent in an application and they sent me an acceptance a few weeks later.

That's because they don't have to interview, so yes, it's a fast process to rank based on two numbers.

I'm still torn on whether it's a good thing to get rid of interviews. On the one hand, interview scores have been shown not to be correlated with success as a med student, nor good at filtering out the nutters, but on the other hand, they may be an important thing *if not just for the sake of image* (ironically, of course).

It might be that people on the forums were lying about their scores, but I can't imagine why somebody would say that their score was lower than it actually was.

I was making a bigger point about problems with anecdotes in general. But indeed, a lot of posts on these forums are by people pretending they're someone they're not, with motives foreign to most decent people. A few are clearly nutters.

But yes, UQ grad has always accepted some students with mid-20s. The question would be, has the average, or say, the median, gone down appreciably. I don't think there's any reason to believe it has. Particularly based on anecdotes, on forums.

I think (I'm not sure) that UQ's international class size has increased by 200% in the last two years (60 to 100 to 180).

The first number is more like 75-80, though that was a stuff up on the part of the administration (they wanted 100). The second is prob right +/- 10 (the number who come to the first PBL of a starting year is always a bit different than what's expected). I'm not sure about the third, except I understand the *plan* has been to accept 150, with 300 domestics. Keep in mind that the int'ls are not all Canadian -- usually there's 10 or so countries represented.

I'm not sure about the first number, but I know that it's gone from 100 to 180 in the last year. Sure, their applicant pool has probably increased, but I doubt that it went up by 200%.

I see no reason not to believe the number of applicants could have doubled or more. As said, the Australian route has become much much more popular, and the market is increasing, not fixed. No interviews also means it's easier to apply, and process (part of the point of ridding them).

But even if your numbers are correct, an applicant pool doesn't have to grow by the same amount to maintain the same acceptance stats! Geez.

When I did have firsthand knowledge of the MCAT stats, the number of int'ls was much smaller, but (minus the fixed Bruneiian cohort) they did double in 1 year, then increase by 50% for each of the following two years. But the scores (average and spread) remained essentially the same. In fact, it was policy to keep them the same.

Also, I took a survey of a lot of Americans (particularly doctors) who I know, and they usually have a more positive opinion of USyd and Melb than UQ or Flinders or Monash. ...[snip]... Still, considering that those are the same doctors who will be someday deciding whether I get admission into their residency program, I figured that it's something that I should consider. You might want to try taking the same survey.

Oh I did. I found people generally didn't know U Queensland. They also didn't know anything about USyd or Melbourne first hand, but generally had good feelings about them. Some had no knowledge of anything Australian at all. Generally though I found older docs had good impressions of "Australian doctors".

So yeah, I agree that if reputation of the school matters, then UQ is not as well known as USyd and Melbourne.

 

[igcgnerd]

Oschner, on the other hand, has no experience with training medical students. If you think there's any possibility that you'll practice in Australia, you'll need to do a few clinical rotations here so that you can build connections. A lot of the pros and cons have been discussed in this thread:

That part is slightly inaccurate. Oschner has never officially partnered solely with one medical school like it has now with U of Q, but it certainly has been teaching medical students since it opened actually. They have residency programs in many specialties and med students on every service, majority are from LSU-NO and tulane. Also people doing audition rotations for residency programs. They have dual residency programs with both of these insitutions and thus have had their med students on their teaching services.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

The debate between USyd and UQ is one I'm certainly spending a lot of time on. Of course, one or neither of them might accept me so the point would be moot, but i'm still thinking about how the next year might pan out for me.

So far this is what I've gathered. Both schools seem to be good institutions for medicine, UQ has a specific linkage with Oschner for 2 years of US rotations while USyd has formal linkage with Cornell and Columbia for 2 electives. UQ's Oschner system is still on temporary accreditation but I just heard one poster, Pollux, is in Oschner just now. So that might be an indicator that the accreditation with Oschner is working out just fine. Usyd sounds like it is more difficult to get accepted into which may correlate more with its name recognition due to the city and its long history. With the education being relatively equal, it seems that the higher tuition and tougher admissions can be attributed to people's desire to go to a school with world recognition and major urban city. Also, the US rotations seem to favor UQ because it is part of the program and would be for two years where as USyd only had about 5 spots each year for Cornell and 5 spots for Columbia. Shan, do you know how hard it is to get those spots?

My gut feeling tells me both schools are great, but I would love to live in Sydney (I'm from San Francisco and Sydney is so similar). Either way, I'd be happy at either institutions.

 

[SFs Own Tone]

Shan, When did you hear from USyd? I looked at their timeline and it seems like the soonest you will find out if you've been accepted is October. I'm currently applying to DO schools in the US but would rather go to USyd. If I have an acceptance to a DO school, classes would begin before I could find out about USyd. Did you have a similar problem due to the conflicting timelines of US vs Aus schools?

 

[igcgnerd]

As it regards to the oschner program accreditation: Re certifying the program with the AMC was voluntary, the AMC doesn't require that they refile and go through all the motions of accreditation for branch campuses. Given the fact that they volunteered for it to be assessed I have no doubt that it will be approved by the AMC but if hell should freeze over you still are guaranteed to finish your degree back in Oz.

 

[shan564]

I head back from USyd in late September. I didn't apply to DO schools, so I didn't have a dilemma similar to yours.

The Cornell/Columbia spots aren't too hard to get in, since most Australian students don't want to take the USMLE. Still, Oschner is a guarantee. If I don't get into the Cornell or Columbia spots, I'll just apply to other schools to do my rotations; there isn't a formal partnership elsewhere, but a lot of American schools accept international students for rotations. It seems like everybody who wants to go to the US gets a chance to go at some point.

If you're 100% sure that you want to go to the US, then 2 years at Oschner might be better... it gives you more opportunities to leave good impressions. Personally, I'm happy with just doing 5-6 months there, since I only really need a couple of rec letters.

I probably wouldn't worry about Oschner's accreditation. Of course, it's a concern (and everything seems to happen VERY slowly here), but I can't imagine that it wouldn't be sorted out within 4 years.

Pitman - you're right, I should have qualified my statements by saying that they're mostly based on anecdotes rather than hard data.

 

[desibhai]

I am interested in the program and thinking about applying.

I was just wondering, is it true that they prefer people from Louisiana for the Queensland-Ochsner program?

 

[pitman]

The Cornell/Columbia spots aren't too hard to get in, since most Australian students don't want to take the USMLE. Still, Oschner is a guarantee. If I don't get into the Cornell or Columbia spots, I'll just apply to other schools to do my rotations; there isn't a formal partnership elsewhere, but a lot of American schools accept international students for rotations. It seems like everybody who wants to go to the US gets a chance to go at some point.

If you're 100% sure that you want to go to the US, then 2 years at Oschner might be better... it gives you more opportunities to leave good impressions. Personally, I'm happy with just doing 5-6 months there, since I only really need a couple of rec letters.

I completely agree with your sentiment, Shan. A lot of schools do require students to have passed USMLE part 1 before allowing clinical rotations, but for those students who want more time to prepare for it, there are plenty of placements that don't require it. And a formal affiliation isn't necessary, they just make it a bit easier to organize the logistics and paperwork, and can be cheaper depending on the arrangement.

I think in the end, what matters most is whether wherever you go, if you want to get back to the US or Canada, the school has some way for you to do 2+ rotations there. USyd, UQ, Melbourne, Flinders, and I'd think *most* of the other Aussie schools, all allow rotations internationally and further help through affiliates.