Undergrad Research

Q-Optics, surgical ergonomics - redefined
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YouNeverKnow22

YouNeverKnow22

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Hey guys I'm looking for some feedback/suggestions. In a nut shell I'm a rising junior (undergrad) very interested in neurological surgery. I've done my share of shadowing and even worked on a paper measuring TBI's. I have a pretty good relationship with a neurosurgeon at a local university hospital who is very willing to help me in any way possible.


My question is, is it reasonable for me to write my own paper doing clinical research in the field of neurosurgery as an undergrad and if so what would be appropriate topics?....I was just thinking very basic (coiling vs. clipping,etc.) and if I did write a paper are there journals that would accept a paper from an undergrad as a first author?

thanks for reading, any helpful responses would be much appreciated
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Writing your own first author paper @ this stage would be awesome & certainly wouldn't hurt you. You've got a leg up being this involved so early on. Best of luck to you.
 
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Yes you can be a first autor on a paper. I would talk with your neurosurgeon mentor about ideas. He'll know what is practical and of interest to neurosurgeons. If you are planning on doing research on real clinical data, realize you will need to the approval of the Institutional Review Board (IRB) at the institution where you are going to get your data. Even this process can be long and time consuming dependng on what you do.

You can also talk to him about writing up a case report, short case series, or technical note which does not require the IRB approval. If it's your first scientific paper I would suggest this route. Once you have a interesting case to report, then look for similar case reports in the journal you are planning to submit to for ideas on how to format it. In neurosurgery these are Journal of Neurosurgery (which has Pediatrics and Spine parts to it as separate journals) and the journal Neurosurgery. There are many other "second tier" neurosurgery journals like British Journal of Neurosurgery, Surgical Neurology, Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry and all take case reports.

Good luck
 
mpp said:
Yes you can be a first autor on a paper. I would talk with your neurosurgeon mentor about ideas. He'll know what is practical and of interest to neurosurgeons. If you are planning on doing research on real clinical data, realize you will need to the approval of the Institutional Review Board (IRB) at the institution where you are going to get your data. Even this process can be long and time consuming dependng on what you do.

You can also talk to him about writing up a case report, short case series, or technical note which does not require the IRB approval. If it's your first scientific paper I would suggest this route. Once you have a interesting case to report, then look for similar case reports in the journal you are planning to submit to for ideas on how to format it. In neurosurgery these are Journal of Neurosurgery (which has Pediatrics and Spine parts to it as separate journals) and the journal Neurosurgery. There are many other "second tier" neurosurgery journals like British Journal of Neurosurgery, Surgical Neurology, Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry and all take case reports.

Good luck
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thanks a case report sounds like a good way to get my feet wet, I just wanted to confirm that writing a paper and being the first author wasn't something out of the question
 
YouNeverKnow22 said:
thanks a case report sounds like a good way to get my feet wet, I just wanted to confirm that writing a paper and being the first author wasn't something out of the question
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A case report is definitely the way to go for your first first authorship (sorry... I know that sounds awkward). Be sure that you look through the literature to make sure that your particular case isn't exhaustively reported (or so that you know which approaches to the paper NOT to take). Your mentor should be instrumental during the process, as s/he will know how to direct the paper towards proper clinical relevance.

I can tell you that getting a first author as an undergrad is certainly doable, especially with the proper support and guidance. I have one under my belt, and I am currently working on two more. Just be aware that (at least in my case) it can get out of hand quickly, and that case report can rapidly become a case series and/or review... My current paper has gone from a 3 page write-up to a 20 page write-up as we speak!

Best of luck!

PS - As stated above, your PI will be instrumental in getting it actually published... Be sure to speak with him/her about this. Unfortunately, submitting a good paper to the wrong journal can prevent its publication (had that happen too... it was rolled into another paper later).
 
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phantomx87 said:
A case report is definitely the way to go for your first first authorship (sorry... I know that sounds awkward). Be sure that you look through the literature to make sure that your particular case isn't exhaustively reported (or so that you know which approaches to the paper NOT to take). Your mentor should be instrumental during the process, as s/he will know how to direct the paper towards proper clinical residence.

I can tell you that getting a first author as an undergrad is certainly doable, especially with the proper support and guidance. I have one under my belt, and I am currently working on two more. Just be aware that (at least in my case) it can get out of hand quickly, and that case report can rapidly become a case series and/or review... My current paper has gone from a 3 page write-up to a 20 page write-up as we speak!

Best of luck!

PS - As stated above, your PI will be instrumental in getting it actually published... Be sure to speak with him/her about this. Unfortunately, submitting a good paper to the wrong journal can prevent its publication (had that happen too... it was rolled into another paper later).
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thanks for the advice, I'm probably going to set up a meeting soon and discuss some topics....I have some in mind...let's hope it all works out! good luck to you as well!
 
mpp said:
Yes you can be a first autor on a paper. I would talk with your neurosurgeon mentor about ideas. He'll know what is practical and of interest to neurosurgeons. If you are planning on doing research on real clinical data, realize you will need to the approval of the Institutional Review Board (IRB) at the institution where you are going to get your data. Even this process can be long and time consuming dependng on what you do.

You can also talk to him about writing up a case report, short case series, or technical note which does not require the IRB approval. If it's your first scientific paper I would suggest this route. Once you have a interesting case to report, then look for similar case reports in the journal you are planning to submit to for ideas on how to format it. In neurosurgery these are Journal of Neurosurgery (which has Pediatrics and Spine parts to it as separate journals) and the journal Neurosurgery. There are many other "second tier" neurosurgery journals like British Journal of Neurosurgery, Surgical Neurology, Journal of Neurology, Neurosurgery, and Psychiatry and all take case reports.

Good luck
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mpp, is the tier of the journal weighed heavily? What about the type of research? For example, doing electrophysiology in TBI and irradiated rats with first and second authorships in journals like Nature Neuroscience or Radiation Research is not really related to NS, but I have heard that rigorous scientific research is valued more highly than just clinical research. I think that one important aspect of doing clinical research with a neurosurgeon is the connections you make though. It's just that ephys is so intense and time consuming that it doesn't leave much time for additional clinical research or even volunteering (which, I must admit, is time wasted beyond the 60 or so hours you put into it to "know" what medicine is).
 
I am not sure what your question is. There is good and bad clinical and basic science research. The pure neurosurgery journal are not regarded as highly for basic science research (although they do publish basic science research). Any research in traumatic brain injury is definitely neurosurgery related since most TBI is managed by neurosurgeons.
 
thanks for the feedback, I went in with 0 projects and now I have 2 reports to work on. Here's another question, it was brought about submitting my abstract to the AANS conference when I finish.....can any med/undergrad students comment on this? Has anyone done this before?
 
You have such a great start at undergraduate research, I am looking into the field of neurosurgery and believe me you are ahead!
 
I've definitely heard of it being done. Poster presentations and stuff, but major abstracts/talks tend to be done by the PI or a resident/post-doc though you will be authored and probably invited to go. I'd ask the PIs you are working for for clarification, it is they and not the general trend that will decide what you get to do as far as conferences go.
 
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I can second this... I was second author for an abstract that was presented at a national conference, but my PI decided that she and her chief resident (who was like 6-7 on the author list... can't remember) would present said abstract. It's just the way it goes. I'm guessing when you are presenting, they (the PIs) would like someone with more credibility (i.e. degree) to speak to a room full of their professional colleagues.

However, I can say that, in my personal experience, it's much easier to present and speak at lower-level more local conferences (e.g. AANS = no, PNS = yes). It is in these situations where my fellow non-MD colleagues and I have presented.

Again, just as mmmcdowe stated, it's really up to your PI. Just feel him/her out, speak with them, and know where you stand. Don't expect anything, and above all remain gracious and humble.

mmmcdowe said:
I've definitely heard of it being done. Poster presentations and stuff, but major abstracts/talks tend to be done by the PI or a resident/post-doc though you will be authored and probably invited to go. I'd ask the PIs you are working for for clarification, it is they and not the general trend that will decide what you get to do as far as conferences go.
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phantomx87 said:
Again, just as mmmcdowe stated, it's really up to your PI. Just feel him/her out, speak with them, and know where you stand. Don't expect anything, and above all remain gracious and humble.
Click to expand...

Agree. There may come a time when you are asked to present the same research...I was surprised how much mileage I was able to get out of my projects (turning them into papers/grand round talks (!)/excuses to travel to new locales)...

But yeah, you're waaaaaay ahead of where I was in the research arena! I didn't really start until 3rd year, and I'm still getting a lot of the stuff I started then done as a PGY0. :laugh:
 
oh me and me mentor talked/agreed that me giving a talk is probably out of the question and i'm COMPLETELY ok with that, i think just submitting my abstract/getting it accepted and getting to go to the conference would be amazing....I just didn't know if any of you personally undergrads doing this, thanks for all the responses!
 
I don't agree with the sentiment, "that's just the way it goes." If you're the impetus behind doing the research and contributed an idea that was key to moving the project forward (i.e., came up with a new injury model, new spatial learning paradigm, planned out all the molecular studies/immunohistochem/etc.), you're the one who will likely be the first author while your attending/PI will be the corresponding (last) author. If you did all/most of the work, you know the research the best and should be the most qualified to talk about it at conferences. Your attending/PI will be too busy with ongoing grants/papers/managing the lab/surgery to go out to CNS or AANS to present an abstract. Btw, as a medical student, if you submit an abstract in the cerebrovascular category of research for the annual CNS conference, you can compete against other med students and residents for the Synthes award for best research.
 
I am not sure about presenting, but I am working on a first author paper. I have put enough time in a project where my PI feels comfortable that I know enough to write a paper. As for presenting, that same paper (at least the preliminary data) was presented by someone else. I didn't have an issue with this at all because I don't really have the desire to spend the time to prepare a poster, fly to another part of the country, spend several days, then give a short talk. Most of these things just don't seem to be important enough. Many of these poster presentations are often lacking enough data to backup claims and not all make it into a full article. I find the authorship far more rewarding. But I can see that under some conditions presenting could be a good way to get new connections.
 
update: our abstract accepted for electronic poster presentation at the AANS/CNS conference 2011 in LA!!! working on submitting manuscripts to a journal currently
 
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mmmcdowe said:
Maybe, I have an accepted talk but I may not be able to go given that I will be rotating then.
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let me know, would love to meet some of you...especially since you are at Columbia and that's one of my top choices, need some applying advice :D
 
I had another question, does anyone have experience with electronic poster presentations? Do you speak at all or does the powerpoints just shuffle through during the day? any info would be appreciated
 
YouNeverKnow22 said:
I had another question, does anyone have experience with electronic poster presentations? Do you speak at all or does the powerpoints just shuffle through during the day? any info would be appreciated
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Traditionally one does speak at a poster presentation, briefly. The rules should be available on the website for that meeting, or in the email that approved your abstract. Email them if it is still unclear.
 
I don't think that's the case for the electronic posters. I did some digging around and found this on the aans website regarding a conference from 08'.

"More than 400 electronic poster presentations, a new format for this year's meeting, will be on view in the registration area of Lakeside Center, McCormick Place. All posters will be presented at individual computer stations and organized by author or topic, dependant on viewer preference. They can be viewed throughout the convention from Friday at 5 p.m. to Thursday at 10:30 a.m."

Sounds like they just cycle through them, yet an author must be present for the poster to be shown? Seems like a hassle to travel cross country just for that...oh well I'm not complaining
 
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