UK vs. Irish Schools: What do you think?

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evan

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Good question, but it is so general it's almost impossible to answer. Are you asking in terms of returning to Canada or the US, or in terms of quality, reputation, teaching, or curriculum? Or of the living conditions, expenses, culture, etc.? Or the difficulty in getting in or differences in admissions procedures?
 
I'd be interested, too, in getting answers to all of the questions you posed, Jedi.

If an American, say, received offers to schools in the UK and in Ireland, and wanted to go back to the US (residency and then practise), what would be the best choice? Please give your views on the various issues you brought up.

Thanks a lot.
 
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Thanks, Jedi. Actually I have applied to both UK and Irish schools (through Atlantic Bridge).

I am cautiously optimistic that I may actually have a choice between an Irish school and a UK school.

Any ideas would be welcome.
 
From what I know, Ireland would be a better choice if you were looking to head back to Canada or the US. I don't know enough to go into specifics. My reasons:

1) There are only 4 Irish medical schools, as opposed to 20+ UK schools. By proportion, the statistics will show more coming back from Irish schools than UK schools.

2) There are probably more NA students as international students in Ireland than UK (per school). This makes it easier to collaborate with others in terms of a "return strategy". You will probably get the chance to take USMLE in Ireland along with your classmates.

3) In the UK, I think you would be more isolated (in terms of returning), for lack of a better word. First off, there are fewer international students per school, and out of those, a fewer proportion coming from Canada or the US than Ireland, which has a specific recruitment process for NA students.

4) In Ireland, the schools are probably more aware (and facilitating) in terms of NA students returning, for reasons mentioned above. One example is RCSI, which supposedly relies partially on its NA students achieving well on USMLEs for their good reputation. I've heard their timetable is more accommodating for self-preparation of USMLEs and that they have a day scheduled for taking USMLEs.
 
Thanks for the information, Jedi. I am beginning to wonder if I might find the UK schools a little isolating if there are few North Americans and a little more difficult in terms of studying for the USMLEs. It sure would be nice to have someone to study and commiserate with who's in the same boat.

Do you think going to RCSI as opposed to the other Irish schools might give me an edge in getting back to the US? (as if I will even get to choose!)

I do love England, though.
 
evanston said:
To be blunt, and brief, no.
RCSI would love you to believe that going there will give you a tremendous advantage over the other schools, but really, in the long run all the Irish schools give you the same education, which is not oriented to the USMLE (neither are the UK schools, for the same reason - they are preparing people to work in their system, not the American system), and the others are much cheaper than RCSI. Getting back home seems to be about the same regardless of what school you go to; you have to work hard and self-study for the various extra exams you need to go home.
Good luck on the applications,
M
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Definitely not. There are successful Irish grads from all schools practicing in the US, and they all seem to get lumped into the same "Irish" pool, not recognized by each individual school.
 
I had to choose between RCSI and the University of St. Andrews, Scotland (doing my clinical trainin at the University of Manchester, England). Having visited neither, heard not much about either, and only looking at the websites, I picked St. Andrews. And I LOVE it. (I'm from America, btw, and plan to return). I don't know how the Irish schools are, so I cant compare, but if they teach more like the USMLE style, i would say they possibly could be better. but ive learned a lot here in the uk, and am planning to sit my usmle next summer.

so all in all this probably helped you none. good luck!:thumbup:
 
The Irish schools, RCSI included, do not teach to the USMLE. They teach to the Irish medical systems' needs, as they should. You get a good education, but you do not get taught how to pass an irrelevant exam in a foreign country (the USMLE).
Cheers,
M
 
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med2UCC said:
They teach to the Irish medical systems' needs, as they should. You get a good education, but you do not get taught how to pass an irrelevant exam in a foreign country (the USMLE).
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Agreed. The world does not revolve around the needs for Canadians and Americans who do go abroad for their medical education and rightly so. They are not their to cater to foreigners who come into THEIR country; they have to train for their own country's needs.

It is hard to think of the concept, but as I have seen first hand, North Americans have this inept belief that the whole medical school program is supposed to revolve around them getting back home.

Thus, if you do go over to the UK or Ireland for a medical education and want to return to North America, don't go thinking that you will have your a$$ kissed, if you do that, the locals would LOVE to kick it instead.

My two cents on it
 
Defo. people who realize this before coming here and don't expect any sort of catering or preferential treatment will be much happier here. Have been saying that ever since I first started coming on SDN nearly 5 years ago!
 
I am completely understanding of what you all are saying, never would I think that they are going to cater to the USMLE. But what I want to ask is, if you do go to school in the UK/Ireland, and do well i mean, will you be prepared to take those exams? Not that you wouldnt have to do a little extra preperation, but in general, lets say, would you be prepared to prepare?

Thanks
 
pattycanuck said:
Agreed. The world does not revolve around the needs for Canadians and Americans who do go abroad for their medical education and rightly so. They are not their to cater to foreigners who come into THEIR country; they have to train for their own country's needs.

It is hard to think of the concept, but as I have seen first hand, North Americans have this inept belief that the whole medical school program is supposed to revolve around them getting back home.

Thus, if you do go over to the UK or Ireland for a medical education and want to return to North America, don't go thinking that you will have your a$$ kissed, if you do that, the locals would LOVE to kick it instead.

My two cents on it
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I will focus on your asinine abuse of North Americans in general. What's wrong with you Patty? You are an angry person.

Most North Americans would NOT assume every country is out to cater to their needs. In fact, hardly anyone from NA goes for medical training overseas. There is really no reason to, unless you just want to experience another culture. This is where your arrogance comes into play - here you have a NA student wanting to come to your country, so you snipe at him on the SDN forum. What an *ss.
 
Jaybe said:
I will focus on your asinine abuse of North Americans in general. What's wrong with you Patty? You are an angry person.

Most North Americans would NOT assume every country is out to cater to their needs. In fact, hardly anyone from NA goes for medical training overseas. There is really no reason to, unless you just want to experience another culture. This is where your arrogance comes into play - here you have a NA student wanting to come to your country, so you snipe at him on the SDN forum. What an *ss.
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I am assuming that Pattycanuck is, in fact, a Canuck, and is thus speaking as a fellow North American who has seen other North Americans misbehave in European countries. Is this true, Patty?

Regardless, I do agree with Jaybe that most Americans who choose to study abroad must surely realize that the system at a foreign school will not cater to their future ambitions in any specific way. They may get pissy in the days leading up to an exam, or what have you; but in general I have to assume that they know that they will need to take their own steps to ensure that they are prepared adequately for things like the USMLE. Have you noticed otherwise, Patty?
 
I will play the devil's advocate and agree with Patty. Although I wouldn't use "most," I have met an awful lot of Americans who think that way simply because of ignorance...they don't know any better. i don't know why that is, maybe media feeding or whatnot. Now, I do agree that the ones who actively choose to study abroad have much more an open mind than "regular" north americans, which is refreshing. But those of us who choose to spend time abroad are in the minority. I used to be absolutely shocked to find that many more of my colleagues had never been outside the US, or in some cases, outside their own state. I'm not anymore...i've met too many people with such limited experience. And what I found very sad was that those people didn't even have a desire to experience something more of the world than their own locale.

the reason why patty said that is because there are still those kinds of people who come here. They expect to be catered to just because they're North american and expect everything to be handed to them. "My money paid for this so I should get ___". The world doesn't work that way. And all they do for 5 years is bitch and moan and not only become very bitter/unhappy people, but make others bitter/ugly people and just makes the environment negative. Fortunately, they're in the minority but it's quite unpleasant. And there's at least 1 or 2 in every class who feels that way.

bigchoader, if you perform well, you will generally do well on the USMLEs. I won't make a blanket statement and say that every student who does well performs well (there are a few good enthusiastic students who fail the USMLE). However, there have been some who have been able to do very well on the USMLEs.
 
Jaybe said:
I will focus on your asinine abuse of North Americans in general. What's wrong with you Patty? You are an angry person.

Most North Americans would NOT assume every country is out to cater to their needs. In fact, hardly anyone from NA goes for medical training overseas. There is really no reason to, unless you just want to experience another culture. This is where your arrogance comes into play - here you have a NA student wanting to come to your country, so you snipe at him on the SDN forum. What an *ss.
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Live and go to school there; see it for yourself and get back to me on that. Have you been to Ireland? Have you lived in a country outisde North America for at least a full year and really got to know its culture and society? At the end, it is not an issue about being angry Jaybe, it is a matter about pointing out the obvious about those who do come over insisting that everything is for them.

There are few other cultures that boast such a recognition of this type of demeanor abroad. If you want me to say I am angry, well I would only say that there are many out there who do think that and of course on the side, you'll here the local person snicker under his breath about an American classmate ... "stupid American, who does he think he is?". I get embarrased for my friends and I also get slightly irritated that I get lumped in being called an "American" (that is just a freindly jibe to our southern neighbours).

Likewise, I am neither a person to protect those who do come over. I advise only on what has been seen and done, not only by myself, but countless other Irish and North Americans who have gone through medicine also. I am purely only giving those reading a heads up on the likely scenario to expect and to make sure that those that do come over are not shocked by what they have "thought would be the type of system and medical education for them."

I don't believe that I made a personal attack on anyone here specifically ... but moderator, what do the T&C of the forum indicate ... see above.:thumbdown: :rolleyes:
 
Chulito said:
I am assuming that Pattycanuck is, in fact, a Canuck, and is thus speaking as a fellow North American who has seen other North Americans misbehave in European countries. Is this true, Patty?

Regardless, I agree with Jaybe that most Americans who choose to study abroad have to realize that the system at a foreign school will not cater to their future ambitions in any specific way. They may get pissy in the days leading up to an exam, or what have you; but in general I have to assume that they know that they will need to take their own steps to ensure that they are prepared adequately for things like the USMLE. Have you noticed otherwise, Patty?
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There are those who are more than just the rotten apple in the barrel ... and there was more than just one strolling around as well. Do not get me wrong when I say that there are good plenty of Americans and Canadians as well.

At the end of the day, there is a way of indicating your frustration at the system that doesn't cater to your needs - for the most part, the NA method is not how it is done in Ireland. In addition, the tension from many North Americans comes not only around exam time, but from the first day of classes till they receive their degree (many do not even come back for degree conferral - and for some it is because they came there and got what they wanted - the degree).

Chulito, in comparison you have massive amounts of Malaysian and Middle Eastern students over in Ireland ... more than NA amounts ... if anything at all, they amount to a small squeak compared to a NA's roar about things that aren't done "right". I wouldn't call it misbehaving either ... it is more a disrespect for the local culture.

As well, they are very well inclinded to get what they have to get to go back home to the US - if that wasn't the case, most people would go to schools like those in the Carribean - many of them are geared to challenge the task of specifically getting into the US system. BUT, those who chose to go to Ireland have already chosen in with the pretext of knowing that Irish schools do not give specific training leading to writing the USMLEs; again, keeping in mind ... why do they have to when they are trying to educate their own for their own country (my initial point of this argument)?
 
pattycanuck said:
There are those who are more than just the rotten apple in the barrel ... and there was more than just one strolling around as well. Do not get me wrong when I say that there are good plenty of Americans and Canadians as well.

At the end of the day, there is a way of indicating your frustration at the system that doesn't cater to your needs - for the most part, the NA method is not how it is done in Ireland. In addition, the tension from many North Americans comes not only around exam time, but from the first day of classes till they receive their degree (many do not even come back for degree conferral - and for some it is because they came there and got what they wanted - the degree).

Chulito, in comparison you have massive amounts of Malaysian and Middle Eastern students over in Ireland ... more than NA amounts ... if anything at all, they amount to a small squeak compared to a NA's roar about things that aren't done "right". I wouldn't call it misbehaving either ... it is more a disrespect for the local culture.

As well, they are very well inclinded to get what they have to get to go back home to the US - if that wasn't the case, most people would go to schools like those in the Carribean - many of them are geared to challenge the task of specifically getting into the US system. BUT, those who chose to go to Ireland have already chosen in with the pretext of knowing that Irish schools do not give specific training leading to writing the USMLEs; again, keeping in mind ... why do they have to when they are trying to educate their own for their own country (my initial point of this argument)?
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Sad. I know (and lament) that North American tourists are unjustifiably demanding and exigent abroad, but I always imagined that their jingoisitic feelings of entitlement came more from the fact that they tend to come from money and privilege. In fact, I have lived in Italy and Spain for 3 years and 1 year respectively, and in those countries people generally said that English tourists were the worst, followed closely by Americans and then Germans. In other words, it seemed to be a problem of the upper crust from wealthy societies "slumming" in the south, not specifically an American thing. I would like to think that people who choose to live in a foreign country for four years would be more interested in observing, living and imbibing the local culture on its own terms, and furthermore that American medical students would be particularly aware of the fact that a foreign school is going to be geared towards the needs of its own doctors-in-training and patients in need, not towards the goal of facilitating the repatriation of a few foreign exchange students. I guess not. Again, sad to hear that this has been the case in your experience.
 
Having lived in Ireland for eighteen years and the U.S for ten I think I can possibly shed a little light on what exactly it is that irritates the Irish a little about *some* american med students. Perhaps this is best illustrated by way of anecdote. (actual case from UCD involving an american med student from California who was in my Brother-in-laws class.)
Professor: (talking on the subject of his expertise)...and so that is the way that procedure is done
Girl: Excuse me! ( raises hand ) , um, I know you said you ligate after procedure x, but in California.....
Professor: I am quite certain that is standard procedure perhaps with minor variations in personal technique, but ( rudely interrupted at this point )
Girl: Yeah, but are you sure? I mean I used to shadow an Ob/gyn...and in California...
After five minutes of this banter the Professor,understandibly a little irate, finally shuts her up with:
"Miss ******, take a look out of any window and tell me if you see any palm trees, or beaches. No?"
The same Professor was revered for his ability to perform c-sections in 15 minutes from incision to final suture and had published widely, but of course the californian probably knew better.
As an Irish student in the american system I know better than to argue"but in Ireland we don't order CTs to rule in appendicitis, its a clinical diagnosis". Cause hey, I'm not in Ireland, and when and if I am I will come to understand and conform to that system.
To all of the candidates looking at Irish med. good luck to you, and enjoy it. Just save yourself from being labeled as a loud-mouthed, silver-spooned, sense of entitlement clinging, ignorant American. The best way to do this is to realise Ireland, and the rest of Europe are very proud of their own identity, and culture, and they exist independent of your desire for an education. Oh, and also the MD/PhD giving the lecture probably knows what they are talking about.;)
 
Good anecdote, Bulletproof. Jaw-droppingly insensitive and naive (to say nothing of embarrassing) behavior.
 
pattycanuck said:
Chulito, in comparison you have massive amounts of Malaysian and Middle Eastern students over in Ireland ... more than NA amounts ... if anything at all, they amount to a small squeak compared to a NA's roar about things that aren't done "right". I wouldn't call it misbehaving either ... it is more a disrespect for the local culture.
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If I remember correctly it was the Malaysian students that were the driving force for threatening to sue the Faculty of Medicine at UCD for providing substandard facilities a few years ago when everything was still out in Earlsfort Terrace.

bulletproof said:
After five minutes of this banter the Professor,understandibly a little irate, finally shuts her up with:
"Miss ******, take a look out of any window and tell me if you see any palm trees, or beaches. No?"
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OMG! ROTFLMAO! :laugh:
 
And lemme tell you...that sort of behavior really irritates the rest of us because it hurts us in the future. This gets into some of the more subtle points about being here and the politics that can happen, whether real or imagined. Because there have been students like that in the past, some Irish consultants (ie. examiners) then become openly biased against NA students. We actually had a lecture just a couple weeks ago that involved a consultant ranting against Americans for a substantial part of the lecture - I wasn't present but that really pissed us off. And what happens in the exams? They hear your American accent and then lucky you gets to start off at a lower baseline mark than the other students. This is partly conjecture, but that feeling contributes to the tension that can happen among North American students, as well as tension between foreign vs. Irish students. A lot of things get blown out of proportion so the most important thing is to be here for the right reasons and most importantly, ACT WELL.
 
leorl said:
A lot of things get blown out of proportion so the most important thing is to be here for the right reasons and most importantly, ACT WELL.
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Solid advice the world over. I constantly have to remind myself of this when I encounter less than engaging personalities in the hospital or in clinic. I am also keenly aware that in a very real sense some people are judging me as the "Irish student", and so if I am rude it reflects badly on all my fellow countrymen. Others might judge me as the "Ross student", and so I am equally interested in not adding any negative connotations to that particular label. As difficult as it can be in medicine just do your best to not let yourself down by acting like a 3 year old. There are plenty of these individuals in medicine and they are not relegated to either side of the atlantic.Those of you already in medical school/medicine know exactly who I am talking about.
 
dr strangelove said:
If I remember correctly it was the Malaysian students that were the driving force for threatening to sue the Faculty of Medicine at UCD for providing substandard facilities a few years ago when everything was still out in Earlsfort Terrace.
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I graduated in 2003 from UCD - don't remember that happening; must be afterward.
OMG! ROTFLMAO! :laugh:
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True ... how true :laugh:
 
bulletproof said:
Having lived in Ireland for eighteen years and the U.S for ten I think I can possibly shed a little light on what exactly it is that irritates the Irish a little about *some* american med students. Perhaps this is best illustrated by way of anecdote. (actual case from UCD involving an american med student from California who was in my Brother-in-laws class.)
Professor: (talking on the subject of his expertise)...and so that is the way that procedure is done
Girl: Excuse me! ( raises hand ) , um, I know you said you ligate after procedure x, but in California.....
Professor: I am quite certain that is standard procedure perhaps with minor variations in personal technique, but ( rudely interrupted at this point )
Girl: Yeah, but are you sure? I mean I used to shadow an Ob/gyn...and in California...
After five minutes of this banter the Professor,understandibly a little irate, finally shuts her up with:
"Miss ******, take a look out of any window and tell me if you see any palm trees, or beaches. No?"
The same Professor was revered for his ability to perform c-sections in 15 minutes from incision to final suture and had published widely, but of course the californian probably knew better.
As an Irish student in the american system I know better than to argue"but in Ireland we don't order CTs to rule in appendicitis, its a clinical diagnosis". Cause hey, I'm not in Ireland, and when and if I am I will come to understand and conform to that system.
To all of the candidates looking at Irish med. good luck to you, and enjoy it. Just save yourself from being labeled as a loud-mouthed, silver-spooned, sense of entitlement clinging, ignorant American. The best way to do this is to realise Ireland, and the rest of Europe are very proud of their own identity, and culture, and they exist independent of your desire for an education. Oh, and also the MD/PhD giving the lecture probably knows what they are talking about.;)
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Yes, that is pretty much signature on "the" prof's part - he's loved or hated, but never in between. Nice to hear your take on it too. I may know the girl ... well maybe.:p

Agreed with the above - probably nicer put that I previously had written on this and other threads
 
bulletproof said:
Having lived in Ireland for eighteen years and the U.S for ten I think I can possibly shed a little light on what exactly it is that irritates the Irish a little about *some* american med students. Perhaps this is best illustrated by way of anecdote. (actual case from UCD involving an american med student from California who was in my Brother-in-laws class.)
Professor: (talking on the subject of his expertise)...and so that is the way that procedure is done
Girl: Excuse me! ( raises hand ) , um, I know you said you ligate after procedure x, but in California.....
Professor: I am quite certain that is standard procedure perhaps with minor variations in personal technique, but ( rudely interrupted at this point )
Girl: Yeah, but are you sure? I mean I used to shadow an Ob/gyn...and in California...
After five minutes of this banter the Professor,understandibly a little irate, finally shuts her up with:
"Miss ******, take a look out of any window and tell me if you see any palm trees, or beaches. No?"
The same Professor was revered for his ability to perform c-sections in 15 minutes from incision to final suture and had published widely, but of course the californian probably knew better.
As an Irish student in the american system I know better than to argue"but in Ireland we don't order CTs to rule in appendicitis, its a clinical diagnosis". Cause hey, I'm not in Ireland, and when and if I am I will come to understand and conform to that system.
To all of the candidates looking at Irish med. good luck to you, and enjoy it. Just save yourself from being labeled as a loud-mouthed, silver-spooned, sense of entitlement clinging, ignorant American. The best way to do this is to realise Ireland, and the rest of Europe are very proud of their own identity, and culture, and they exist independent of your desire for an education. Oh, and also the MD/PhD giving the lecture probably knows what they are talking about.;)
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It seems that anyone who would go abroad for 5 years to learn, be it medicine or not, should have that point well figured out. If they don't, I can't understand why they are there. Any enlightenment on why someone would be there who is unaware of such realities of the world? Being closed minded and ethnocentric as such seems like it should have been caught during interviews and an enrollment place denied.

It seems like those who would choose to study in a different country than their own would have an understanding of such common knowledge and respect.

I wish someone could tell me what a person like that was doing over there, but since you are not her, I'm not sure anyone would know.
 
bigchoader said:
It seems that anyone who would go abroad for 5 years to learn, be it medicine or not, should have that point well figured out. If they don't, I can't understand why they are there. Any enlightenment on why someone would be there who is unaware of such realities of the world? Being closed minded and ethnocentric as such seems like it should have been caught during interviews and an enrollment place denied.

It seems like those who would choose to study in a different country than their own would have an understanding of such common knowledge and respect.

I wish someone could tell me what a person like that was doing over there, but since you are not her, I'm not sure anyone would know.
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I think you would be very surprised at how ethnocentric and closed minded many individuals who travel abroad for an education actually are. I studied in the west Indies for a period with individuals who had never left their home state, who had no desire to learn anything about the country they were staying in, and who desired to return home and complete a residency in their home state, and who expressed no interest in seeing anything further of the world. If I am remembering correctly, their wording when questioned on their ideas was something to the effect of " why would i want to travel? America is the best country in the world ". Patriotism is noble, but the ease with which these individuals equated "best" with "only" is still mind-boggling to me. To be honest, many of them were very nice individuals. At any rate, these individuals were by no means representative of Americans as a whole group. I have many close american friends who are well-travelled, cultured, and open-minded. But to be honest I don't even bat an eyelid anymore when I meet an american who has no concept of where Ireland is geographically, or who thinks we really should have changed the name to freedom fries just to spite the French. Ignorance (and/or just plain lack of interest,depending on how you look at it.) is alive and well, and will be with us for some time I'm afraid. And yes its alive and well in Ireland too. No one country has a monopoly on it unfortunately. But I digress...
 
The answer to that question is complex. Firstly, there are people here who're here because they couldn't get into US schools or perceived that they could not. some of them are instantly bitter, so I always say that this is definitely not a reason to consider Irish schools. For others, the bitterness is monetary - we pay a substantial sum to be here, and some view that they are not getting a return for their money. They think "because I paid for _x_, I am entitled to __x__," and become frustrated/bitter when it doesn't happen, or "x was crap! My money is paying for this ****e?!" . For instance, when we encounter hardships of scheduling elective times, the stress of having to prepare for USMLE exams with no allotted time for study, sometimes unsympathetic and defensive views of administrators or specific consultants/teams, etc. And also negative things conjectured about subjective scoring systems that filter down from year to year.

People who do find happiness here keep a positive outlook, are pro-active in terms of their own education and making friends, keep an open mind and know how to be tactful when suggesting improvements, and are not overly antagonistic. Sincerity also goes a long way. You would think many medics would have these traits, and you'd be mistaken. Very immature behavior is seen in stressful times, not just here but seemingly universal in any medical school.
 
Warning - thread hijack:

bulletproof said:
...As an Irish student in the american system I know better than to argue"but in Ireland we don't order CTs to rule in appendicitis, its a clinical diagnosis". Cause hey, I'm not in Ireland, and when and if I am I will come to understand and conform to that system...
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They do CTs to rule in appendicitis in the US? Really??
 
FionaS said:
Warning - thread hijack:
They do CTs to rule in appendicitis in the US? Really??
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Unfortunately, they rely on them so much that they often ignore the most obvious symptoms. After presenting with the classic symptoms of appendicitis, I was given a CT scan and subsequently sent home from the hospital with "a bad case of gas"! Eight hours later I was rushed by ambulance to the hospital with peritonitis. I came very, very close to losing my life. It was a nightmare that I was extremely fortunate to survive.
 
Rasmustown said:
Unfortunately, they rely on them so much that they often ignore the most obvious symptoms. After presenting with the classic symptoms of appendicitis, I was given a CT scan and subsequently sent home from the hospital with "a bad case of gas"! Eight hours later I was rushed by ambulance to the hospital with peritonitis. I came very, very close to losing my life. It was a nightmare that I was extremely fortunate to survive.
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Oh My!! Thank goodness everything ended up well, but nonetheless what an unfortunate consequence of the over-reliance on basic medical technology.
 
docolive said:
Oh My!! Thank goodness everything ended up well, but nonetheless what an unfortunate consequence of the over-reliance on basic medical technology.
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have not been to SDN for a while so sorry for the late reply but, yeah, as I understand it a large part of it is for the "atypical" presentations of appendicitis, and the litigation fears that arise from potentially missing a diagnosis. This was, at least, the party line from a morning rounds lecture on the subject at a large academic centre in Chicago a while back. An amazing and depressing waste of resources in my opinion for what should be a clinical diagnosis. You gotta love practicing defensive medicine.:(

And to the poster with the missed diagnosis...hope you are feeling better.
 
A similar story tho not as life-threatening ... so I was doing an elective back home in November and a guy came in (very poor historian, didn't want to admit anything was wrong but he eventually got so weak and lost so much weight that his children brought him in). I felt his abdomen, thought it was abnormally hard and distended (but really thin guy, hard to say distended or not). I didn't think he was telling me the whole story so I sent his children out of the room and did a rectal exam. Thought prostate was really abnormally sized. So I got my attending to check him out and he was like "Leorl, you're full of crap, I think they're normal." But then he got the portable ultrasound and ultrasounded his abdomen - his bladder was like... in his chest. We cathed him and 1500 cc's of urine come pouring out.

My attending had to eat shirt. I was right, he had urethral obstruction from an enlarged prostate (I suspect cancer but never got to follow up) and his belly shrank in 30 minutes. I was like...you needed an ultrasound for that?! I got really good recommendation letters.
 
leorl said:
Is that a misplaced 'r'? ;) Oh, and good call. We had something similar recently where the primary could not figure out what was going on with the pt.( 84 yr old lol w/acute onset of AMS with a recent hx of PE on anticoag.) , and we (pulmonology) had been on consult. After all the jigs and the reels...guess who had 1700ccs of urine backlogged with no foley. Thank God our CT chest picked that one up :rolleyes: Once we drained the bladder, pt. returned to baseline in a matter of hours.
Click to expand...
 
My attending had to eat shirt. I was right, he had urethral obstruction from an enlarged prostate (I suspect cancer but never got to follow up) and his belly shrank in 30 minutes. I was like...you needed an ultrasound for that?! I got really good recommendation letters.[/QUOTE]

Awesome work leori. I am glad that an Irish med. student like yourself, rose to the occasion while doing rotations in the U.S.
I must say, as an aside, that the overall medical education in the United States, has just recently focused more on a problem-based curriculum. Even these days I have heard of (not naming schools--but a big name school) arrogant robots graduating in the end. Furthermore, some state schools have taken a more homely approach and a) provide a problem-based curriculum b) a less competitive/cut-throat environment as well as c) a program that places you in rural areas of the state during year 3.
 
those are probably good changes. Irish schools are following suit. Although I'm very happy to have avoided the problem-based learning that has been implemented. My personal view is that PBL is a complete waste of time unless it is coordinated among different faculties absolutely perfectly...and seriously, how often does that happen. Making the environment less cut-throat is a great idea, especially as it is a completely unnecessary aspect of medicine that needs to disappear (but it never will).

Anyway, just to say...I'm not sure how it happens, but Irish students always impress on rotations. Based on my experiences and those of my colleagues...there has not been an Irish student that I know of who has gotten absolutely punked on electives. We don't know everything clinically (what student or intern does), but we have acumen in other areas and are known for being quite proactive and enthusiastic. I don't know anyone in my class who has done US rotations and not received quite a few compliments.
 
That is great Leori. One of the guys in my past MCAT prep class was from Palestine, and I believe that he eventually went to an American school back there. Anyhow, he complained a lot about how first year's have no basic clinical skills, etc. I guess he was frustrated because he had many years of medical experience--working in a GP's office and in hospital--doing the basics--blood pressure, stitching, etc etc. I can understand as I am still a novice, but never had time to take an EMT course, and most volunteering I did was on busy hospital floors where I did not want to bother the nurses. However, the surgeon that I shadow/ed is amazing...always explaining and bringing textbook knowledge to life.
Anyhow, I hope to additionally shadow a recovery room nurse to get down some of the fundamentals. Best of :luck: this semester to you. I wish someone at Trinity would notice my app---feeling so uncertain about the future is a mini-battle.
 
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