UK OTD - anyone have any experience with FRANZCR?

[SavantPenguin]

I have looked into this fairly extensively and I am aware of the DWS situation and obviously the fun times with 189 limits and the need to find a 190 path.

However, the one area that is a bit of a black box is the substantially/partially comparable decision. The FRCR has no obstetrics so I assume substantially comparable is not going to happen. The impression I get is that partially comparable with FRANZCR part 2 only is the ideal outcome, so that getting a fellowship and doing the exams in that year would be an option. Is this something that is realistic?

Now, if only there was a way to tag txm88 - but it doesn't seem like there is. Oh well, a long shot, here is to hoping he still reads this.

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[txm88]

Hi SavantPenguin - glad to see fellow radiology colleague on the forum

Are you a UK CCT? If you have some consultant experience in the NHS you may have a good chance at being classified as substantially comparable and therefore possible to obtain FRANZCR within 12 months

If you are partially comparable, theoretically it is possible to do the FRANZCR II and get the Australian experience in 1 year though you might be pushing it - usually completed in about 2 years. Even though you may feel like you have the knowledge to pass the part 2, it is ultimately up the college on how much Australian top-up training you need and this is assessed case-by-case

Obviously there is a visa issue that underlies all of this - not an expert on this I'm sorry (I was lucky that I was PR thanks to my wife).

You may have already seen the specialist IMG regulations on the RANZCR website
The 'IMG Assessment Policy' document in here is particularly useful if you haven't seen it already

Specialist Assessment in Australia | RANZCR

www.ranzcr.com

 

[SavantPenguin]

Hi SavantPenguin - glad to see fellow radiology colleague on the forum

Are you a UK CCT? If you have some consultant experience in the NHS you may have a good chance at being classified as substantially comparable and therefore possible to obtain FRANZCR within 12 months

If you are partially comparable, theoretically it is possible to do the FRANZCR II and get the Australian experience in 1 year though you might be pushing it - usually completed in about 2 years. Even though you may feel like you have the knowledge to pass the part 2, it is ultimately up the college on how much Australian top-up training you need and this is assessed case-by-case

Obviously there is a visa issue that underlies all of this - not an expert on this I'm sorry (I was lucky that I was PR thanks to my wife).

You may have already seen the specialist IMG regulations on the RANZCR website
The 'IMG Assessment Policy' document in here is particularly useful if you haven't seen it already

Specialist Assessment in Australia | RANZCR

www.ranzcr.com

I currently have a couple of years left to a UK CCT and all my medical experience is UK based.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have previously seen the Deloitte report on the outcomes people get and very few were found to be substantial. Most received outcomes for exams and so I hoped that was a done deal.

The one thing I was not fully aware of is the 1b section of the assessment policy on CPD as a consultant, which would seemingly make it much harder to move straight after CCT

My plan up to this point was CCT, apply widely for fellowships, then file for specialist pathway in the window before starting fellowship in the hope that I can take some off before fellowship to prepare for the FRANZCR full time. However, with that 1b requirement it seems like there is a solid chance of not being allowed to sit the FRANZCR at that point yet.

However, if I do get a fellowship and I file before the fellowship - would it be realistic to expect for that fellowship to count as a period of upskiling? It would be a non-accredited post at a training site.

Would you say filing straight after CCT and pre-fellowship is doable? Did you do a few years as a consultant?

 

[txm88]

If your fellowship is at an Australian location, you can definitely use it towards your period of upskilling - as to be a fellow you will need AHPRA medical registration (limited registration) which is exactly the same type of registration you will need if you are completing your upskilling via the specialist pathway

I think it is not a bad idea submitting your documentation for specialist pathway right after CCT and using your fellowship as the period of upskilling - its a long process so start as early as you can if you are set on it.

The process usually is: submit paperwork to college --> college determines comparability (substantial or partial) --> use college assessment to find a job (fellow, staff specialist, senior registrar etc.) - recruitment companies can help --> college approves job --> apply for limited registration --> work 12-24 months and complete the part 2 --> FRANZCR --> obtain specialist registration

You won't find many 'accredited' posts willing to take specialist pathway IMGs as they are reserved for local RANZCR trainees to complete their training

Specialist IMGs often have to find 'odd' roles such as staff specialist, fellow, senior registrar etc. (especially in rural/regional locations) - lots of recruitment companies in Australia (they love UK doctors) can help you with this. A quick search online will show you that many rural locations consider partially comparable radiologists for consultant equivalent roles.

I think when you mention 1b (correct me if I am wrong) that is obtaining fellowship through the 'area of need' pathway. THis is an alternative route to fellowship - we are talking about the 'specialist pathway' (1a on the document) which does not have a minimum consultant experience requirement (but of course more experience is better than none)

There are many freshly graduated UK CCTs that come to Australia and obtain their letters here within 1-3 years. This is very specialty specific and there are some high profile cases of highly qualified UK consultants struggling to obtain Australian qualifications (mostly bureaucracy). Ultimately this is the minority

 

[SavantPenguin]

If your fellowship is at an Australian location, you can definitely use it towards your period of upskilling - as to be a fellow you will need AHPRA medical registration (limited registration) which is exactly the same type of registration you will need if you are completing your upskilling via the specialist pathway

I think it is not a bad idea submitting your documentation for specialist pathway right after CCT and using your fellowship as the period of upskilling - its a long process so start as early as you can if you are set on it.

The process usually is: submit paperwork to college --> college determines comparability (substantial or partial) --> use college assessment to find a job (fellow, staff specialist, senior registrar etc.) - recruitment companies can help --> college approves job --> apply for limited registration --> work 12-24 months and complete the part 2 --> FRANZCR --> obtain specialist registration

You won't find many 'accredited' posts willing to take specialist pathway IMGs as they are reserved for local RANZCR trainees to complete their training

Specialist IMGs often have to find 'odd' roles such as staff specialist, fellow, senior registrar etc. (especially in rural/regional locations) - lots of recruitment companies in Australia (they love UK doctors) can help you with this. A quick search online will show you that many rural locations consider partially comparable radiologists for consultant equivalent roles.

I think when you mention 1b (correct me if I am wrong) that is obtaining fellowship through the 'area of need' pathway. THis is an alternative route to fellowship - we are talking about the 'specialist pathway' (1a on the document) which does not have a minimum consultant experience requirement (but of course more experience is better than none)

There are many freshly graduated UK CCTs that come to Australia and obtain their letters here within 1-3 years. This is very specialty specific and there are some high profile cases of highly qualified UK consultants struggling to obtain Australian qualifications (mostly bureaucracy). Ultimately this is the minority

Thanks for this. This is really invaluable.

There are two things I am left wondering about and to be honest they are questions quite specific to my circumstances. As it looks my partner will likely CCT in a DWS exempt specialty a few years after me, which has the upside of possibly allowing me to use the spousal DWS exemption. The downside is that getting PR before she is a fellow might be a real 19AA headache.

However, because of the timeline I am looking at, 2 years of upskilling (in a tight 3 year window) might end up being a tad painful logistically - do you mind me asking, how much upskilling did the college require from you?

I realize you did not have PR issues, but do you know if in the case of fellowships all PR holders have to be offered a job before it would go to a non-PR holder? I realize this will require some flexibility and fellowships like MSK would probably fill with domestic applicants.

 

[txm88]

I worked as a specialist for a few years in my home country before taking the FRCR and finally moving to Australia and passing FRANZCR - the time from application to Fellowship was around 4 years but I am not from the UK so it would be faster for you I imagine

I don’t think you should put too much worry in 19AA and 19AB - this is not applicable when you are making salary working in the public system - only applies when your income stems from billing Medicare in private practice. It’s omly something to think about post FRANZCR and you choose to transition into private practice.

For the readers here:

In a nutshell 19AA means you can only work in private practice without holding college fellowship if you are a non-PR/citizen. As soon as you become a PR, you are ineligible to work in private practice without holding Fellowship (FRACGP, FRANZCR ,etc)

19AB means you need to work in a DWS location for 10 years from date of first registration in order to bill Medicare (private practice) - this does not apply if you work in public as public doctors don’t bill Medicare

It is unlikely you will work in a private practice whilst completing your upskilling on limited registration - they usually only employ FRANZCRs. 19AA is mostly for non-PR, non-specialist IMGs with limited registration who choose to work in (rural) private general practice as opposed to the hospital.

I have never heard of a DWS exempt specialty unless things have changed - the DWS boundaries change depending on the specialty as it is a dynamic map depending on population and workforce supply. For example the DWS for GPs would be very rural but DWS for a specialist might be in the suburbs. In the city I work DWS is 15 min drive from the CBD

This map will give some more ideas - luckily there is a diagnostic radiology map

Health Workforce Locator

The Health Workforce Locator shows you which health workforce classifications and incentives apply in different areas of Australia.

www.health.gov.au

 

[SavantPenguin]

I worked as a specialist for a few years in my home country before taking the FRCR and finally moving to Australia and passing FRANZCR - the time from application to Fellowship was around 4 years but I am not from the UK so it would be faster for you I imagine

I don’t think you should put too much worry in 19AA and 19AB - this is not applicable when you are making salary working in the public system - only applies when your income stems from billing Medicare in private practice. It’s omly something to think about post FRANZCR and you choose to transition into private practice.

For the readers here:

In a nutshell 19AA means you can only work in private practice without holding college fellowship if you are a non-PR/citizen. As soon as you become a PR, you are ineligible to work in private practice without holding Fellowship (FRACGP, FRANZCR ,etc)

19AB means you need to work in a DWS location for 10 years from date of first registration in order to bill Medicare (private practice) - this does not apply if you work in public as public doctors don’t bill Medicare

It is unlikely you will work in a private practice whilst completing your upskilling on limited registration - they usually only employ FRANZCRs. 19AA is mostly for non-PR, non-specialist IMGs with limited registration who choose to work in (rural) private general practice as opposed to the hospital.

I have never heard of a DWS exempt specialty unless things have changed - the DWS boundaries change depending on the specialty as it is a dynamic map depending on population and workforce supply. For example the DWS for GPs would be very rural but DWS for a specialist might be in the suburbs. In the city I work DWS is 15 min drive from the CBD

This map will give some more ideas - luckily there is a diagnostic radiology map

Health Workforce Locator

The Health Workforce Locator shows you which health workforce classifications and incentives apply in different areas of Australia.

www.health.gov.au

Section 19AB restricted doctors and access to Medicare

Overseas trained doctors and foreign graduates of an accredited medical school can access Medicare benefits if they work in certain locations and meet eligibility requirements under section 19AB of the Health Insurance Act 1973. Find out about these requirements.

www.health.gov.au

That's the list of specialties in acute shortage - no DWS restrictions on those.

Thanks for your help.

Final question: there's loads of resources tailored for the FRCR, but finding FRANZCR books is very hard. Did you find there was a lot of overlap? How bad was the pathology paper?

 

[txm88]

After some more reading I am mistaken - thanks for letting me know

Also to answer your question, fellowships are attainable for IMGs however less advertised and you may have to contact institutions individually/find contacts

on the other hand, rural/regional jobs are relatively easier to find

 

[Bishop_90]

Hello txm88, sorry if I am butting in the middle of a conversation, this happens to be my first post here.

I am an Indian-trained radiologist with FRCR + CESR (CCT equivalent in UK for non-UK trained radiologists) and with experience as UK Consultant Radiologist. I am planning to apply for specialist assessment with RANZCR in a hope that they assess me as 'partially comparable' and no additional training.

I am really thankful to this thread as it has more information about Radiologist specialist IMGs trying to get specialist assessment than any other source on the internet.

My question is - is it better to secure a job and apply for specialist assessment or the other way around? I am pretty uncomfortable with the AoN positions what if they are too far-off and the restrictions around them? I have heard from some people that AoN is a trap for IMGs and you get stuck for 10 years, I am not sure how much of it is true.

 

[hdp85]

Hello, this is a great thread, thank you for all the info posted so far.

I am post CCT (dec 2020) and due to start a paediatric radiology fellowship in Australia. Am weighing my options and want to be ready should I decide to work in Australia as a consultant long term. What is the first thing I ought to do to that regard? Should I as previously suggested start the ball rolling with specialist registration? And what do I need to do to ensure my one year fellowship will be counted toward upskilling?

I understand that FRCR is not equivalent with FRANZCR and I would have to do part two of the examination in order to obtain the fellowship exam?

 

[txm88]

Hello, this is a great thread, thank you for all the info posted so far.

I am post CCT (dec 2020) and due to start a paediatric radiology fellowship in Australia. Am weighing my options and want to be ready should I decide to work in Australia as a consultant long term. What is the first thing I ought to do to that regard? Should I as previously suggested start the ball rolling with specialist registration? And what do I need to do to ensure my one year fellowship will be counted toward upskilling?

I understand that FRCR is not equivalent with FRANZCR and I would have to do part two of the examination in order to obtain the fellowship exam?

hi there

well done on finishing your CCT and scoring a fellowship

the first step is definitely embark on the specialist pathway ASAP as it is a long application

best to contact RANZCR on how you can use your fellowship towards your upskilling, as it sounds like you are starting it before you start your formal application

if you can't use it towards your upskilling, you can always use this experience as leverage for getting a more favourable assessment outcome when you finalise your application

FRCR is not exactly equivalent, but with your CCT you may be substantially comparable (in other words just do 12m practice in Aus and bypass FRANZCR part 2)

 

[hdp85]

Hi @txm88,

Thank you for responding to my query and for your advice. Yes I will ping them an email. I suspect even with a CCT I would need to do the part 2 exam. Not looking forward to this. I presume I will need the support of the department I will be working in for my fellowship before applying for specialist registration?

Keep in touch and thanks again!

 

[hdp85]

hi there

well done on finishing your CCT and scoring a fellowship

the first step is definitely embark on the specialist pathway ASAP as it is a long application

best to contact RANZCR on how you can use your fellowship towards your upskilling, as it sounds like you are starting it before you start your formal application

if you can't use it towards your upskilling, you can always use this experience as leverage for getting a more favourable assessment outcome when you finalise your application

FRCR is not exactly equivalent, but with your CCT you may be substantially comparable (in other words just do 12m practice in Aus and bypass FRANZCR part 2)

@txm88 So I’ve found out that it seems unavoidable not to do the exam. Even with my CCT I am only partially comparable. I have to pay $7000 to do an interview to be eligible to sit the exam!

perhaps I can pose my dilemma here and see what you think:

I have secured a sub-speciality consultant job in the U.K, to commence in April 2022. I applied and interviewed before heading to Australia and it will be in the same department I did my sub-speciality training.

My reasons for wanting to do the part two FRANZCR and obtain the fellowship are as follows: 1. To keep my options open in case we (my wife and toddler and baby) really like it here and want to explore the option of staying. 2. If I decide to go back, to enable me to work part time for my main consultant job and do everlight/Teleradiology for overnight cases in radiology. 3. Related to the first point, but if I came back to U.K. to be consultant and after a couple of years didn’t like it, I have the option to return to Australia/NZ. 4. Australia treats doctors better, we love the food here and there’s decent work life balance, not to mention pay and also(I’ve been told) a less litigious population compared to Britain

The challenges are: 1. studying for an exam with a 2.5 yr old and 9 month old, 2. missing out on making the most of my fellowship, 3. missing out on travelling around Australia and maximising our time out here in Oz, 4. Costs related to the interview and actual exam. 5. I’ve heard it’s difficult and if I fail once I’d have to sit it from the U.K. as I won’t have time to tee up another job in Oz and also there’s the issue of burning bridges in the U.K. with the department I would have been starting as a consultant in.

I’d be interested to know what your thoughts were/advice you would give me.

 

[TK44]

Hi SavantPenguin - glad to see fellow radiology colleague on the forum

Are you a UK CCT? If you have some consultant experience in the NHS you may have a good chance at being classified as substantially comparable and therefore possible to obtain FRANZCR within 12 months

If you are partially comparable, theoretically it is possible to do the FRANZCR II and get the Australian experience in 1 year though you might be pushing it - usually completed in about 2 years. Even though you may feel like you have the knowledge to pass the part 2, it is ultimately up the college on how much Australian top-up training you need and this is assessed case-by-case

Obviously there is a visa issue that underlies all of this - not an expert on this I'm sorry (I was lucky that I was PR thanks to my wife).

You may have already seen the specialist IMG regulations on the RANZCR website
The 'IMG Assessment Policy' document in here is particularly useful if you haven't seen it already

Specialist Assessment in Australia | RANZCR

www.ranzcr.com

Hi,
I am a qualified Radiologist from India, completed FRCR and have been practicing in UK for almost 3 years as Consultant.
Does gaining CESR help towards exemption from 1 year upskilling/training necessary with FRANZR 2 (partially comparable)?
It will be very helpful to know as CESR is a long tedious process which will take me a year to get all the paperwork done and another 3-6 months for the outcome along with fees. Thank you for the amazing discussion in this forum which has helped clear a lot many doubts.

Best wishes

 

[zazabza]

@txm88 So I’ve found out that it seems unavoidable not to do the exam. Even with my CCT I am only partially comparable. I have to pay $7000 to do an interview to be eligible to sit the exam!

perhaps I can pose my dilemma here and see what you think:

I have secured a sub-speciality consultant job in the U.K, to commence in April 2022. I applied and interviewed before heading to Australia and it will be in the same department I did my sub-speciality training.

My reasons for wanting to do the part two FRANZCR and obtain the fellowship are as follows: 1. To keep my options open in case we (my wife and toddler and baby) really like it here and want to explore the option of staying. 2. If I decide to go back, to enable me to work part time for my main consultant job and do everlight/Teleradiology for overnight cases in radiology. 3. Related to the first point, but if I came back to U.K. to be consultant and after a couple of years didn’t like it, I have the option to return to Australia/NZ. 4. Australia treats doctors better, we love the food here and there’s decent work life balance, not to mention pay and also(I’ve been told) a less litigious population compared to Britain

The challenges are: 1. studying for an exam with a 2.5 yr old and 9 month old, 2. missing out on making the most of my fellowship, 3. missing out on travelling around Australia and maximising our time out here in Oz, 4. Costs related to the interview and actual exam. 5. I’ve heard it’s difficult and if I fail once I’d have to sit it from the U.K. as I won’t have time to tee up another job in Oz and also there’s the issue of burning bridges in the U.K. with the department I would have been starting as a consultant in.

I’d be interested to know what your thoughts were/advice you would give me.

This is funny you're in an incredibly similar situation to me! But I'm heading out in the next few months. What did you decide to do in the end?

 

[ivkp]

Hello txm88, sorry if I am butting in the middle of a conversation, this happens to be my first post here.

I am an Indian-trained radiologist with FRCR + CESR (CCT equivalent in UK for non-UK trained radiologists) and with experience as UK Consultant Radiologist. I am planning to apply for specialist assessment with RANZCR in a hope that they assess me as 'partially comparable' and no additional training.

I am really thankful to this thread as it has more information about Radiologist specialist IMGs trying to get specialist assessment than any other source on the internet.

My question is - is it better to secure a job and apply for specialist assessment or the other way around? I am pretty uncomfortable with the AoN positions what if they are too far-off and the restrictions around them? I have heard from some people that AoN is a trap for IMGs and you get stuck for 10 years, I am not sure how much of it is true.

i am an indian trained radiologist, and i would like to take the frcr to be consultant in uk. Please can you give me the different steps to follow. Advice to be able to succeed. thank you