Uh oh…..is the cash party over?

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ExperiencedDPM

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But how will I ever fix a bunion again if they take this away from me?!

Also is it too late to buy puts on TMCI?
 
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I’m reaching out to that law firm to see if they’d like any testimony on the deceptive billing practices that are actively recommended by Treace representatives.

I don’t think you all understand how happy this makes me
 
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The TREACE folks adamantly deny that their reps are telling practices how to bill. And I know for a fact that some of their reps are literally out of control offering their fraudulent advice. I have been asked to look at the billing of SO many of these cases it’s astounding. But the good news is that over the past few weeks I’ve seen more and more legitimate and appropriate billing
 
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The TREACE folks adamantly deny that their reps are telling practices how to bill. And I know for a fact that some of their reps are literally out of control offering their fraudulent advice. I have been asked to look at the billing of SO many of these cases it’s astounding. But the good news is that over the past few weeks I’ve seen more and more legitimate and appropriate billing
Reps can offer dumb advice but everything comes back to the "doctor". The doctor can't blame a dumb rep when they get caught billing fraudulently. The doctor should know better and should take responsibility for their own actions.
 
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Maybe they can also re-write the Lapidus chapter in the new 5th edition of McGlamry for any copies sold from here out...

You know, to make it educational, EBM, useful, board prep... basically, make the chapter not an info-mercial?
 
Are you aware that you are one of the sources for this research?

 
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All these jig systems are overrated. It is very easy to lose track of the sagittal plane while using these systems. I have seen many elevated first rays from the lapiplasty jig.
 
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Haha this is excellent!
We do make a difference on here! We have been made!


Our diligence suggests that insurers are pushing back on the techniques employed by many physicians. One podiatrist commenter describes Treace’s precarious position as “roadblocked” by the high costs of the kit relative to the standard reimbursement. He claims Lapiplasty “has created a huge increase in billing fraud” and added that Culper Research Treace Medical Concepts Inc (NASDAQ:TMCI) November 15, 2022 8 he’s been consulted [by insurers] to review these cases. We suspect that as Treace has grown, it has placed a target on its back with insurers:


“That’s the roadblock they [Treace] are running into. Surgical centers are not allowing this set due to cost. Unlike hospitals, the surgery centers can’t bill for these sets. They want to use the least expensive stuff out there. The surgeons panic, since the insurance company wants the surgery done at an ASC vs hospital due to cost savings, but the ASCs won’t allow the set. The panic starts when these surgeons realize that they have no idea how to perform a free hand Lapidus. I have NO problem with the Lapiplasty set. However, it has created a huge increase in billing fraud. I’ve been consulted to review more of these cases than any other product with the exception of the thieves who bill a STJ arthroereisis or ORIF of a talotarsal dislocation for performing an arthroereisis … I was contacted last week by an insurer to review 3 op[erating] reports from a provider who is doing Lapiplasty. He unbundled the procedures to a 28292 and 28740 AND billed for an ORIF of a tarsal metatarsal joint (for the metatarsocuneiform joint). This guy will be paying back big bucks because he’s billed this way for his last 32 cases.”

“I know a lot of young docs who are paying back big bucks for listening to reps … the biggest offenders are the reps for these newer Lapidus systems. Do not listen to these reps. No matter how you slice it, you’ve performed one procedure. A 28297. I’m on retainer with several major insurers specifically to review these claims. It’s become an issue and it’s high up on their radar.”

“The orthopedic surgeons are very aggressive billers and have billed a Lapidus as a 28292/28740 for years.3 DPMs have now jumped on that bandwagon. However, it’s aggressive and ‘creative’ reps who “sell” the idea to docs regarding how to make more money. That’s when all this BS come up with billing 28730 for throwing that intercuneiform screw or billing for an ORIF of a tarsal-metatarsal dislocation. By the way, you can’t get paid for fusing the same joint that is dislocated (even though in this case it’s not a dislocation anyway). You need to reduce a dislocation to fuse the involved joint so the reduction is a component procedure of the fusion. You can’t get paid for 2 procedures when in essence, you’ve only performed one procedure. Bill honestly, understand the rules and do not look for quick schemes. And do not taking billing advice from reps.”

HeyBrother even got a mention replying to my comment.

Most excellent.
 
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Wow. Love this. Karma is a b**** for sure. A few months ago at a Arthrex cadaver lab, a fresh out fellow challenged a few of us when he over heard us trashing this jig. He said with utmost confidence we are not practicing EBM if we are not using this for pediatric/juvenile bunions 😂
 
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Wow. Love this. Karma is a b**** for sure. A few months ago at a Arthrex cadaver lab, a fresh out fellow challenged a few of us when he over heard us trashing this jig. He said with utmost confidence we are not practicing EBM if we are not using this for pediatric/juvenile bunions 😂
Wow the fellowship trained foot and ankle surgeons but really podiatrists strike again. This population of the profession is very unbearable. Kind of like the Grandfathered in DPMs who still practice.
 
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Reps can offer dumb advice but everything comes back to the "doctor". The doctor can't blame a dumb rep when they get caught billing fraudulently.

You really should watch Dopesick on Hulu and look at some of the ways Purdue pharma was finally sued into oblivion, one of which was finding proof that company training led reps to give false/fraudulent information. Of course the rep isn’t going to be liable but the company, in this case Treace, can be. And I guarantee a federal agent can get a former Treace rep to spill the beans.
 
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Haha this is excellent!
We do make a difference on here! We have been made!


Our diligence suggests that insurers are pushing back on the techniques employed by many physicians. One podiatrist commenter describes Treace’s precarious position as “roadblocked” by the high costs of the kit relative to the standard reimbursement. He claims Lapiplasty “has created a huge increase in billing fraud” and added that Culper Research Treace Medical Concepts Inc (NASDAQ:TMCI) November 15, 2022 8 he’s been consulted [by insurers] to review these cases. We suspect that as Treace has grown, it has placed a target on its back with insurers:


“That’s the roadblock they [Treace] are running into. Surgical centers are not allowing this set due to cost. Unlike hospitals, the surgery centers can’t bill for these sets. They want to use the least expensive stuff out there. The surgeons panic, since the insurance company wants the surgery done at an ASC vs hospital due to cost savings, but the ASCs won’t allow the set. The panic starts when these surgeons realize that they have no idea how to perform a free hand Lapidus. I have NO problem with the Lapiplasty set. However, it has created a huge increase in billing fraud. I’ve been consulted to review more of these cases than any other product with the exception of the thieves who bill a STJ arthroereisis or ORIF of a talotarsal dislocation for performing an arthroereisis … I was contacted last week by an insurer to review 3 op[erating] reports from a provider who is doing Lapiplasty. He unbundled the procedures to a 28292 and 28740 AND billed for an ORIF of a tarsal metatarsal joint (for the metatarsocuneiform joint). This guy will be paying back big bucks because he’s billed this way for his last 32 cases.”

“I know a lot of young docs who are paying back big bucks for listening to reps … the biggest offenders are the reps for these newer Lapidus systems. Do not listen to these reps. No matter how you slice it, you’ve performed one procedure. A 28297. I’m on retainer with several major insurers specifically to review these claims. It’s become an issue and it’s high up on their radar.”

“The orthopedic surgeons are very aggressive billers and have billed a Lapidus as a 28292/28740 for years.3 DPMs have now jumped on that bandwagon. However, it’s aggressive and ‘creative’ reps who “sell” the idea to docs regarding how to make more money. That’s when all this BS come up with billing 28730 for throwing that intercuneiform screw or billing for an ORIF of a tarsal-metatarsal dislocation. By the way, you can’t get paid for fusing the same joint that is dislocated (even though in this case it’s not a dislocation anyway). You need to reduce a dislocation to fuse the involved joint so the reduction is a component procedure of the fusion. You can’t get paid for 2 procedures when in essence, you’ve only performed one procedure. Bill honestly, understand the rules and do not look for quick schemes. And do not taking billing advice from reps.”

HeyBrother even got a mention replying to my comment.

Most excellent.
Hmmm. I recognize a lot of those comments!
 
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Beginning to wonder if you maybe had a part in the writing of that legal paper :unsure:.
Ha, not my style. And I was as surprised as everyone else when it was sent to me yesterday. There are a LOT of haters of some of those involved with the company and they can be vindictive. That’s not my modus operandi.

It was only a matter of time.
 
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You really should watch Dopesick on Hulu and look at some of the ways Purdue pharma was finally sued into oblivion, one of which was finding proof that company training led reps to give false/fraudulent information. Of course the rep isn’t going to be liable but the company, in this case Treace, can be. And I guarantee a federal agent can get a former Treace rep to spill the beans.

I saw it. Great series but this is comparing apples to oranges.

Reps lied about the effects of a new medication that physicians had no prior knowledge about so it’s a little more understandable to not fault the physician for the company’s deception.

In terms of foot and ankle surgery and billing podiatrists and foot and ankle ortho already know better and have experience billing and performing bunion surgery to not be swayed by a dumb rep. In this scenario the doctor should take on most of the blame for their poor decision making and fraudulent actions. I think the articles posted just highlight how scammy the company is. It doesn’t help that some of their consultants are obscenely obnoxious on social media and are lying to their colleagues and patients about the “need” of this system.
 
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Once this hits the press and it becomes more circulated, I’m wondering if insurers will now investigate and trigger audits.
 
Beginning to wonder if you maybe had a part in the writing of that legal paper :unsure:.

Didn’t some of you get an inbox message from someone a month or so ago asking about your thoughts about lapiplasty? I did. It was someone involved with that Lapiplasty investor report
 
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Reps lied about the effects of a new medication that physicians had no prior knowledge about so it’s a little more understandable to not fault the physician for the company’s deception

You missed the point…

A company who trains their reps to provide/distribute information, prescribing or billing practices, etc. that are fraudulent, can be held liable for said fraud. It has nothing to do with wether the doctor or rep should have known better. If there is evidence of Treace telling reps or doctors or facilities to bill something illegally for increased reimbursement then they are in trouble. That is exactly how various legal agencies finally got wins against Purdue in court. It’s only apples to oranges in the sense that one company created an epidemic and the other simply cost us taxpayers lots of money and lied to patients and physicians leading to some lifetime disabilities. Treace just didn’t kill anyone. But the legal strategy against them will be very much apples and apples.
 
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1668648940748.png
 
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Didn’t some of you get an inbox message from someone a month or so ago asking about your thoughts about lapiplasty? I did. It was someone involved with that Lapiplasty investor report
I did not but when I reread that thread I didnt say much about lapiplasty being fraud. I pointed out unbundling a general lapidus and thats about it.
 
Just for the record, a Treace rep told me I should unbundle and use both codes when I used the intercuneiform screw recently. I thought that sounded shady and did not. Just coded for a regular ol' Lapidus plus the Weil I do on most of these cases due to shortening from Lapiplasty.

Also ya'll sound like a bunch of narcs.
 
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I assumed this thread was going to be about FTX and crypto when I opened it.
 
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Just for the record, a Treace rep told me I should unbundle and use both codes when I used the intercuneiform screw recently. I thought that sounded shady and did not. Just coded for a regular ol' Lapidus plus the Weil I do on most of these cases due to shortening from Lapiplasty.

Also ya'll sound like a bunch of narcs.
you pre-emptively perform a weil? While there is certainly shortening, have you had any experiences where it was an issue and you had to go back later? It certainly has crossed my mind but I don't address it.
 
you pre-emptively perform a weil? While there is certainly shortening, have you had any experiences where it was an issue and you had to go back later? It certainly has crossed my mind but I don't address it.
Like floating toe? I'm revising someone else's Lapiplasty + floating toe procedure soon.
 
you pre-emptively perform a weil? While there is certainly shortening, have you had any experiences where it was an issue and you had to go back later? It certainly has crossed my mind but I don't address it.
Yes I did. My biggest complaint about the Lapiplasty prior to starting to use it was the amount of shortening it caused. Even though other pods tell me they haven't had any issue with it. Still didn't want to risk it though and have poor patient satisfaction due to transfer lesions. With the two that I've done both Weil and Plasty on there was already a noticeable length of the second compared to the first pre-op, so to avoid having to go back and do a Weil later I just went ahead and did it.
 
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ExperiencedDPM in 5...4...3...
I’ve already notified the authorities. The pod squad will be at his office shortly to shackle him with foot cuffs and strap him up with a low dye prior to making him read old issues of PM News. A fate no one really deserves.
 
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I’ve already notified the authorities. The pod squad will be at his office shortly to shackle him with foot cuffs and strap him up with a low dye prior to making him read old issues of PM News. A fate no one really deserves.
That’s the weirdest exotic dance I’ve heard of but okay…
 
Could probably do 'Other acquired deformities of foot' for a long 2nd met?

Yeah, probably the only code that makes sense. Again, not directed at anyone, but what is essentially a prophylactic metatarsal osteotomy leads to questions in my head. This is nothing more than stream of consciousness, how my brain thinks about what I'm doing surgically, and a very similar line of thinking could be applied to any new or existing treatment algorithm, procedure, instrumentation/hardware/etc. Like these are the questions I would want people to ask me when I did something that deviated from how they practice. It helps me think through what can be controversial and/or complex processes. It's not as if there is a right or wrong answer, we have all altered or evolved the way we practice throughout our careers. And I think thats a good thing.

What other surgical procedures do we perform that require the manipulation or "correction" of an unrelated or adjacent structure that is otherwise asymptomatic? How often do we see lesser metatarsalgia following Lapidus? Is it a rare occurrence or seemingly common? Does one device or jig or method of joint prep cause excessive shortening when compared to others? Are general risks associated with manipulating bone, traumatizing soft tissue that are otherwise asymptomatic worth it? Is it ethical? If one device requires a secondary, prophylactic procedure and other devices or methods don't (or require it less often), should you continue to even use that device? If this secondary procedure were to have significant complications would you be held liable? Would you have a lot of support amongst other surgeons for this surgical practice? Are there other methods of correcting the primary deformity or chief complaint that are acceptable to me and the patient? What risks does that procedure carry? Are those risks any more or less consequential? Either physically or financially?
 
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What was your dx for the met osteotomy CPT?
I almost always use ICDs for claw foot and metatarsalgia and pain on Weils. No problems. It's from both APMA Coding RC CPT>ICD10 linkage and my own exp. I very seldom do PIPJ work anymore... usually just first ray fusion or rare osteotomy, maybe Weil(s), rare lesser digit work if I can avoid it.

I go back and forth on Weils with bunions (esp Lapidus)... mostly forth. I do a lot more of them than I used to. I still try to plantar translate the first met at fusion site... but you won't go wrong with Weils if there's any question pre- or post-Lapidus about the parabola or if they are starting to get hammertoes or sub 2nd me pain on pre-op exam. I dunno.

It's sorta like how we do TALs with TMA or a gastroc with a TA rupture or Achilles rupture. Or we (should) give triples orthotics or trimalleolar and pilons an Arizona brace 6mo post op. I guess it's just planning ahead.

Like Natch said, the more you see other surgeons' revisions, the more sub 2nd pain you seen and the more Weils you'll tend to do - both on theirs and your own? I mainly just like how it gets me out of hammertoe procedures that'll swell forever and the Weil actually looks good and fits good in shoes when healed :)
 
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Why are we putting trimals in Arizona braces?
 
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metatarsalgia and pain on Weils

But the procedure in question was performed on a completely asymptomatic and otherwise non-pathologic bone

It's sorta like how we do TALs with TMA or a gastroc with a TA rupture or Achilles rupture.
I mean I’m not doing those things but there are certainly procedures with common associated procedures. The question is are those secondary procedures being done prophylactically? Or are they done at the same time as the primary procedure because they are addressing pathology (equinus for example) that is already present?
 
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But the procedure in question was performed on a completely asymptomatic and otherwise non-pathologic bone
So you’d recommend waiting until it becomes symptomatic and then putting a patient through another trip to the OR and another post-op recovery period when there is already radiographic criteria that tells us there is pathology? A long second met is pathology.
 
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Why are we putting trimals in Arizona braces?
Because our group owns a DME shop with orthoti$t$... obviously. :greedy:

I think a lot of the syndesmotic or trimall and trimall equivs get pretty bad issues. About 400% of pilons have issues. I tend to give them all an OTC brace at minimum - often upgrade to an Ariz shortly after PT if they continue to struggle awhile. It's not like they are all going to use the brace every single day indefinitely, but most cannot go straight out of the CAM boot and back to hiking hills and box jump cross-fit :)

But the procedure in question was performed on a completely asymptomatic and otherwise non-pathologic bone
...
I mean I’m not doing those things but there are certainly procedures with common associated procedures. The question is are those secondary procedures being done prophylactically? Or are they done at the same time as the primary procedure because they are addressing pathology (equinus for example) that is already present?
Yeah, I suppose it comes down to pre-op documentation and pt discussion. I kinda look at bunions as first MPJ pain, medial bump pain or shoe fit or crossover/abutting 1-2 toes, and central met pains. Hypermobility and OA of first MC are key but pt will barely ever complain of those. A lot have 2 or even 3 of those: bump/shoe pain, 1st MPJ joint issues, or 2nd ray issues. I document when they have 2nd MPJ capsule and met head pain or hammertoes; I'm pretty sure my bunion template has it by default unless I uncheck it. But yeah, I totally agree it'd be borderline to do a Weil with no documented pain there at 2nd, no hammertoe, no nothing besides that the Lapidus might shorten the first ray.

For revision bunions, I think 2nd MPJ or general central forefoot pain might be the most common complaint. They usually had under-corrective osteotomy or just the bump shaved but sesamoid position or parabola is still out of whack and the first ray isn't doing propulsion well. If they had a 1st MPJ implant for a bunion, 2nd MPJ pain and callus is 99% the top problem.

If some patient ever said "fix the bunion but I don't want you to touch the 2nd met," then I'd probably say 'fine but be aware you might want a met pad or insole with a met pad in the long term' if they had a normal parabola. If they had a short first or long 2nd on XR or 2nd starting to hammer... or if it's revision, I'd tell them I don't believe they'd be happy without 2nd ray work and to go find another surgeon. The only exception I find is *some* first MPJ fusions... those can do well without Weils or a good parabola... probably because they get the first ray grabbing fairly well no matter what?

...A long second met is pathology.
There was actually a crazy study about that. It was a Euro study where they corrected met parabolas (surgically... across the board... to match some wacky hypothetical "ideal" met length goal) in mildly symptomatic or even asymptomatic (!!!) feet. It turned out it didn't significantly improve them. It also turned out they didn't hit the goal parabola in a lot of them. I couldn't find it just now, but it was one of the crazier modern papers you'd ever see; it was discussed in an ACFAS ASC lecture a couple years ago that's probably still on Acfas OnDemand.

As for a bunion painful enough for surgery, I think a long 2nd is pathology also. Long 2nd will cause PDS, pain, digit drift, problems... that's well researched. Lapidus causes shortening... no way around it besides plantar translating the met. Cartilage has thickness, subchondral plate has thickness... even if you don't use a saw (I sure do), you will still inevitably shorten. End of the day, it's all in the documentation of 2nd MPJ pain and just how you spin to the patient as to what will function best for them and tend to have a long term good outcome with minimal chance for re-op. Jmo
 
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So you’d recommend waiting until it becomes symptomatic and then putting a patient through another trip to the OR and another post-op recovery period when there is already radiographic criteria that tells us there is pathology? A long second met is pathology.

It depends. If 20% of my patients would ultimately become symptomatic sub 2nd met after a 1st TMT fusion would I do a 2nd (sometimes also 3rd?) met osteotomy on 100% of them at time of lapidus? No. If that number was 80%? Sure.

Personally I don’t do many lapidus. But Ive never done a Weil as prophylaxis. So far I have not seen enough transfer pain post operatively to make me feel the need to Weil all of my 1st TMT fusions. That could certainly change.

I’ve seen plenty of X-rays where the 2nd met is long from a textbook standpoint and patient had no symptoms. It’s certainly not a guarantee that long 2nd met = pain or problems. The lapiplasty also shortens the first met, are the social media lapiplasty folks downplaying the complication rate of a shortened 1st met in terms of transfer pain? I could certainly believe that.

I’m not saying there is inherently anything wrong with prophylactic procedures. But how I personally would answer the questions in the above post, dictates how I approach this hypothetical decision to Weil every/most lapidus.
 
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