UCSF or UOP???

[NileBDS]

... In my opinion, we are prepared well to be a good dentist and healthcare provider. ... (UCSF)

That's all that counts.

All this bickering about UCSF vs Pacific is really turning tedious, and is consuming all of the readers/posters energy.

OP, at this point, you have enough negative information on which to base your decision. YOU WILL BE OK EITHER WAY.

Good Luck.

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[NileBDS]

This thread is exhausting and not very constructive. It's turning into all these small petty arguments, irrelevant to the OP original question.

 

[Mach band]

That's all that counts.

All this bickering about UCSF vs Pacific is really turning tedious, and is consuming all of the readers/posters energy.

OP, at this point, you have enough negative information on which to base your decision. YOU WILL BE OK EITHER WAY.

Good Luck.

I'm not sure if you directed your response to my post, but if you read my post correctly, there is no bickering intended at all. I've never given negative comment about UOP nor anything beyond my own experience at UC. Why is it OK for you to say things about UOP, but would be considered bickering if I say things about UC? On the other hand, I agree with you that there is some bickering in this thread (both sides though).

 

[SanOnofre2002]

If you consider that you'll work until the same point where you'll retire, the additional income you gain from attending Pacific is 1 year's worth of your average LIFETIME salary, not your first year out. For an endodontist, even after living and taxes and all that it's a pretty good chunk of money.

I don't understand why you think it's more logical to use your average lifetime salary. I agree that using first year out income only is not a good approximation of savings, but including much later years income in the estimate seems to skew it the other way too much. Correct me if my thinking is flawed here, but your additional income should be the average of just the number of years it takes until your production plateaus. If it takes say 5 years for you to build up your speed to your ideal level, the average of that timeframe is what you gain with your extra year. Including into the average the 20+ years after that inflates the worth of your extra year out too much.

 

[armorshell]

I don't understand why you think it's more logical to use your average lifetime salary. I agree that using first year out income only is not a good approximation of savings, but including much later years income in the estimate seems to skew it the other way too much. Correct me if my thinking is flawed here, but your additional income should be the average of just the number of years it takes until your production plateaus. If it takes say 5 years for you to build up your speed to your ideal level, the average of that timeframe is what you gain with your extra year. Including into the average the 20+ years after that inflates the worth of your extra year out too much.

Getting out a year early increases the rate at which you attain that "plateau", giving you an extra year before retirement of "plateau" production and income. Getting out a year early doesn't make you advance your income any slower than someone who attends a 4 year school, so assuming both people advance at the same rate, the Pacific student will have 1 additional plateau year by the time the 4 year student gets to his first.

See the point?

 

[Stillmaticbeat]

i was wondering how much endo's make. you guys are saying he will lose a year of earnings. how much is that? not an endo that just started up but one that has a decent practice running for years.

 

[armorshell]

i was wondering how much endo's make. you guys are saying he will lose a year of earnings. how much is that? not an endo that just started up but one that has a decent practice running for years.

I'm not finding solid numbers through the AAE but the average salary for a dental specialist is something around $260,000

 

[in her drawer]

This thread needs to chill. UoP or UCSF... it's all good!

I don't think the OP can go wrong with either one. If you really want to specialize, it doesn't matter where you go.

 

[OMSKooK]

I am going to try and keep this short and simple. I am a recent grad of UOP (06) and have been on the GPR trail for 2 years and now applying for OS.

First, In all my experiences with UCSF graduates at GPRs is that they are severely behind other recent grads right out of dental school, to the point that my previous director doesn't even bother to interview them even when they have good stats (boards etc.). The UOP name carries more after grad than many realize. If you think this doesn't matter for endo residency interviews, think again...

Second, the money isn't an issue. You will make double, triple even quadrulpe the 110 grand difference in once year of practice as an endodontist.

Third, for a guy whose biologic clock is already ticking at 24, time should be a huge consideration. If you match out of UOP, you saved a year, if you don't you are back to par. If you don't match out of UCSF, now you are down one.

Fourth, UCSF is a great school/institution, but I don't think anyone will stand up and say dentistry is there forte. UOP is a dental school and dental school only. Making great competent dentists is what they do.

Fifth, I have met many UCSF grads in my 2 years post grad so far, most of them regret UCSF or have little to say about it other than they love SF. Survey past and recent UOP grads, they all will likely stand by their dental school and actually hold it in high regard . . . which is rare for any graduate dentist as majority of dentists despise their dental school after graduation. Camaraderie (Humanistic environment) and happiness IS priceless.

Look at it this way - a ford focus will get you to where you want to go the same as a BMW - but wouldn't you rather be driving the BMW? Sorry to ford focus owners.

 

[OMSKooK]

.

 

[armorshell]

Look at it this way - a ford focus will get you to where you want to go the same as a BMW - but wouldn't you rather be driving the BMW? Sorry to ford focus owners.

Of course, after paying tuition at Pacific you'll probably need to drive a Ford Focus for a while.

UoP student and Ford Focus driver for the past 4 years checking in.

 

[TomTomDDS]

First, In all my experiences with UCSF graduates at GPRs is that they are severely behind other recent grads right out of dental school, to the point that my previous director doesn't even bother to interview them even when they have good stats (boards etc.). The UOP name carries more after grad than many realize. If you think this doesn't matter for endo residency interviews, think again...


Fifth, I have met many UCSF grads in my 2 years post grad so far, most of them regret UCSF or have little to say about it other than they love SF. Survey past and recent UOP grads, they all will likely stand by their dental school and actually hold it in high regard . . . which is rare for any graduate dentist as majority of dentists despise their dental school after graduation. Camaraderie (Humanistic environment) and happiness IS priceless.

Look at it this way - a ford focus will get you to where you want to go the same as a BMW - but wouldn't you rather be driving the BMW? Sorry to ford focus owners.

Hi,

1. Based on your experiences, could you provide me a list of the things that are making "UCSF graduates at GPRs severely behind" of UoP students?
2. As for the clinical skills, what do you think UoP students have that UCSF students don't? I know a number of UoP students argue that they have superior clinical skills than UCSF students, but when you ask them to provide you with some specific examples, they struggle to answer that question.
3. What do you think UoP does that UCSF does not and because of that UoP students are more clinically fit?

Any UoP studens who argues that UoP students have better clinical skills than UCSF but cannot answer these questions with sufficient evidence and logic, I believe he or she is making their statements based on emotions, their love for UoP. Their statements are not based on convincing evidence and thus should be disregarded.

 

[SororityOMFS]

Hi,

1. Based on your experiences, could you provide me a list of the things that are making "UCSF graduates at GPRs severely behind" of UoP students?
2. As for the clinical skills, what do you think UoP students have that UCSF students don't? I know a number of UoP students argue that they have superior clinical skills than UCSF students, but when you ask them to provide you with some specific examples, they struggle to answer that question.
3. What do you think UoP does that UCSF don't and because of that UoP students are more clinically fit?

Any UoP studens who argues that UoP students have better clinical skills than UCSF but cannot answer these questions with sufficient evidence and logic, I believe he or she is making their statements based on emotions, their love for UoP. Their statements are not based on convincing evidence and thus should be disregarded.

Pacific doesn't do research....perhaps their students aren't used to backing up anything with evidence.

Maybe it isn't just how you cut a prep....maybe patients are treated better at UoP and this caries over into the students' private practice. Maybe they are teaching new materials. Maybe they have new lab techniques. Maybe they don't have to do any lab and see more patients! Opposite of OHSU I think...

Who knows. If you want to specialize....go to UCSF. If you don't, go where you'll enjoy yourself.

 

[armorshell]

Hi,

1. Based on your experiences, could you provide me a list of the things that are making "UCSF graduates at GPRs severely behind" of UoP students?
2. As for the clinical skills, what do you think UoP students have that UCSF students don't? I know a number of UoP students argue that they have superior clinical skills than UCSF students, but when you ask them to provide you with some specific examples, they struggle to answer that question.
3. What do you think UoP does that UCSF don't and because of that UoP students are more clinically fit?

Here's a simple breakdown. At each school, there are two very different student bodies. For some reason or another, there are a lot more students looking to specialize at UCSF and a lot more people looking to be general dentists at Pacific. Considering the goals of each students body, it's reasonable to presume that the average Pacific student will be more focused on developing their clinical skills than developing their knowledge of the basic sciences or research.

So if I want to be an above average student at Pacific, I damn well have to be an above average clinician. Maybe the bar is set slightly lower at UCSF, which of course doesn't preclude you from being an amazing general dentist, just like going to Pacific doesn't preclude me from specializing.

 

[TomTomDDS]

Here's a simple breakdown. At each school, there are two very different student bodies. For some reason or another, there are a lot more students looking to specialize at UCSF and a lot more people looking to be general dentists at Pacific. Considering the goals of each students body, it's reasonable to presume that the average Pacific student will be more focused on developing their clinical skills than developing their knowledge of the basic sciences or research.

So if I want to be an above average student at Pacific, I damn well have to be an above average clinician. Maybe the bar is set slightly lower at UCSF, which of course doesn't preclude you from being an amazing general dentist, just like going to Pacific doesn't preclude me from specializing.

I appreciate your comements. It provides us an opportunity to clear out some of the misunderstanding that exist about UCSF School of Dentistry. I must admit that I respectfully disagree with your comments.

It is true that UCSF is known all over the world for their research and their contribution to the filed of medicine and dentistry. However, its not true that we primarily focus on basic sciences and research. [FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]Our basic science instruction hours are close to the lowest in the country and yet our board scores are close to the top in the country. This means that what our students learn is focused and relevant. Secondly, no one is forcing us to do a research. If we desire to participate in a research, we have a great opportunity to do so.

To respond to your comment about specialization, not every student at UCSF is interest to specialize. Take for example myself, I have no interest in any specialty. I am not an exception to the rule. More than half of the class don't specialize. This fact can be easily verified by considering the number of those who applied to a specialty program, number of students who got accepted to the program and the class size.

And finally, how could it be possible that the ".bar is set slightly lower at UCSF" if our board scores are closest to the top in the nation. Secondly, from time to time I see UoP students argue that UCSF students are very stressed out because the dental program and the circiulm is too rigorous, and now you are arguing that the " the bar is set slightly lower at UCSF". And if you are still believing that " the bar is set slightly lower at UCSF", again what evidence do you have for your argument. I like to take a look at that.

And could you be kind enough to answer my 3 original questions directly, without beating around the bush?

1. Based on your experiences, could you provide me a list of the things that are making "UCSF graduates at GPRs severely behind" of UoP students?
2. As for the clinical skills, what do you think UoP students have that UCSF students don't? I know a number of UoP students argue that they have superior clinical skills than UCSF students, but when you ask them to provide you with some specific examples, they struggle to answer that question.
3. What do you think UoP does that UCSF does not and because of that UoP students are more clinically fit?

 

[TomTomDDS]

Pacific doesn't do research....perhaps their students aren't used to backing up anything with evidence.

Maybe it isn't just how you cut a prep....maybe patients are treated better at UoP and this caries over into the students' private practice. Maybe they are teaching new materials. Maybe they have new lab techniques. Maybe they don't have to do any lab and see more patients! Opposite of OHSU I think...

Who knows. If you want to specialize....go to UCSF. If you don't, go where you'll enjoy yourself.

Please see my response to armorshell post.

 

[armorshell]

To respond to your comment about specialization, not every student at UCSF is interest to specialize. Take for example myself, I have no interest in any specialty. I am not an exception to the rule. More than half of the class don't specialize. This fact can be easily verified by considering the number of those who applied to a specialty program, number of students who got accepted to the program and the class size.

See, I hear this coming from you, but I bet I'd get a completely different story if I was talking to someone else in your class. At the ADA convention this year, a classmate of mine heard from a UCSF graduate that 80% of the class specializes, and another classmate was told by a UCSF student that 60% specializes.

I guess it depends on what the argument is about?

And finally, how could it be possible that the ".bar is set slightly lower at UCSF" if our board scores are closest to the top in the nation. And if you are still disagreeing that " the bar is set slightly lower at UCSF", again what evidence do you have for your argument. I like to take a look at that.

Yes, your school's Part 1 board scores are high, which has absolutely nothing to do with clinical ability at all. As far as evidence, I was just making a suggestion as to how the difference could come about, I wasn't trying to suggest that this was the cold hard truth.

And could you be kind enough to answer my 3 original questions directly, without beating around the bush?

Sure, I'll give it a whack.

1. Based on your experiences, could you provide me a list of the things that are making "UCSF graduates at GPRs severely behind" of UoP students?
2. As for the clinical skills, what do you think UoP students have that UCSF students don't? I know a number of UoP students argue that they have superior clinical skills than UCSF students, but when you ask them to provide you with some specific examples, they struggle to answer that question.
3. What do you think UoP does that UCSF don't and because of that UoP students are more clinically fit?

1. Can't answer it because I'm still in school, not the original poster who said that. Not sure why you'd be worried abou tit though. Even if it is true, it's like a sample of 5-10 people at the most. Who knows, maybe it's a really bad GPR and all the SF students are too good to even consider it.
2. The only difference I can comment on without any subjectivity required is that we have no specialty programs except ortho, which means that our students are seeing a broader range of cases and doing more complex procedures, more often, than students at other dental school. Our students regularly do molar endo and perio surgery, not hard to get full mouth restorations (My girlfriend just picked up an FMR and she's a 2nd year dental student, and my roommate just finished doing 14 units of fixed w/ VDO opening).

There are also a variety of other reasons this could be true, but because I can't get information on the average total taper on crown preps between Pacific and UCSF, you'll probably just cry "NOT EVIDENCE LOL!!!11" and completely ignore it.
3. This is the same question as 2.

All that being said, going to a school that may not be the best at everything doesn't exclude you from being the best at it. I came to UoP knowing that it's not the best school in the US for specializing, but that's never held me up, I just have to do way more than the average student. It should work the same in the opposite direction. All that matters is what standard you hold yourself to.

 

[TomTomDDS]

See, I hear this coming from you, but I bet I'd get a completely different story if I was talking to someone else in your class. At the ADA convention this year, a classmate of mine heard from a UCSF graduate that 80% of the class specializes, and another classmate was told by a UCSF student that 60% specializes.

I guess it depends on what the argument is about?



Yes, your school's Part 1 board scores are high, which has absolutely nothing to do with clinical ability at all. As far as evidence, I was just making a suggestion as to how the difference could come about, I wasn't trying to suggest that this was the cold hard truth.



Sure, I'll give it a whack.


1. Can't answer it because I'm still in school, not the original poster who said that. Not sure why you'd be worried abou tit though. Even if it is true, it's like a sample of 5-10 people at the most. Who knows, maybe it's a really bad GPR and all the SF students are too good to even consider it.
2. The only difference I can comment on without any subjectivity required is that we have no specialty programs except ortho, which means that our students are seeing a broader range of cases and doing more complex procedures, more often, than students at other dental school. Our students regularly do molar endo and perio surgery, not hard to get full mouth restorations (My girlfriend just picked up an FMR and she's a 2nd year dental student, and my roommate just finished doing 14 units of fixed w/ VDO opening).

There are also a variety of other reasons this could be true, but because I can't get information on the average total taper on crown preps between Pacific and UCSF, you'll probably just cry "NOT EVIDENCE LOL!!!11" and completely ignore it.
3. This is the same question as 2.

All that being said, going to a school that may not be the best at everything doesn't exclude you from being the best at it. I came to UoP knowing that it's not the best school in the US for specializing, but that's never held me up, I just have to do way more than the average student. It should work the same in the opposite direction. All that matters is what standard you hold yourself to.

Armorshell, my friend..I appreciate the fact when you are arguing you are disagreeing with a friendly tone of voice. I thank you for that.

A. About the specialty rate, since you are hearing diff. numbers from diff. students, I believe you ..and I'll find that out for you. I could be wrong and thus I don't want to foolishly argue.

B. Questions 2 and 3 are not the same. Question 3 are the things that the school does, these are parts of the program/curriculum, they are the specific training that the school provides to their students and because of that their students become good at X,Y,Z. So, question 2 is simply asking for the XYZ. And question 3 is asking for the method that leads to the achievement of XYZ.

C. You are arguing that because our school has a number of specialties most of the challenging cases would go to the specialties. You are not 100% wrong about that. But what most people did not tell you is the fact that UCSF offers a very strong clinical rotations. So, if you do miss any thing in school you will get that in your clinical rotation. Let me put things into a perspective. Here's what a 4th year student did in one day of work. Now based on your experience as a dental student, or as someone who has worked/shadowed in a dental office, do you think this is a good representation of a typical work day in a dental office. Do you think this particular student is not getting sufficient clinical experience?

Morning: 8:30 am -1pm:
9 extraction on 4 different patients (3 pts are emergency walk in)
2 crown prep on 2 different patients
2 master impression for dentures
1 root canal
3 amalgam filling
2 new patients exam

Afternoon: 1:30-4:30pm
1 RCT
1 crown deliver
4 amalgam restorations ( 2 on kids)
2 new patients exam (1 pt is a 2 yrs old who was crying)
1 more extraction at 4:15 pm

I think most people would agree that this individual is getting enough clinical exposure.

 

[Count Orlok]

All that matters is what standard you hold yourself to.

Exactly!

 

[Yahtzee]

Morning: 8:30 am -1pm:
9 extraction on 4 different patients (3 pts are emergency walk in)
2 crown prep on 2 different patients
2 master impression for dentures
1 root canal
3 amalgam filling
2 new patients exam

Afternoon: 1:30-4:30pm
1 RCT
1 crown deliver
4 amalgam restorations ( 2 on kids)
2 new patients exam (1 pt is a 2 yrs old who was crying)
1 more extraction at 4:15 pm

I think most people would agree that this individual is getting enough clinical exposure.

Holy cow! Do you guys have people that do your scheduling, setup, standing-in-line, etc?

 

[RazorDDS]

I just want to go on record stating I am sick of this thread and the friendly war between UOP and UCSF students. It sounds like both places are good dental schools both are in SF so let this go. I am sure the person who started this thread has gotten the info he was looking for. just my two cents

 

[armorshell]

B. Question 2 and 3 are not the same. Question 3 are the things that the school does, these are parts of the program/curriculum, they are the specific training that the school provide to their students and because of that their students become good at X,Y,Z. So, question 2 is simply asking for the XYZ. And question 3 is asking for the method that leads to the achievement of XYZ.

Considering that you're asking for hard statistics, I don't see how it's possible for any dental student to answer these questions about their dental school without some sort of subjective bias. It's also possible for any dental student, at any dental school, to provide single, subjective accounts like the one you provided below, to "prove" basically anything.

The most I can give you is what I already have. There are no statistics comparing the average length of axial walls on preparations done in the clinic or anything like that, and I doubt the administration will be willing to give me the average numbers of "X" procedure done by students just so I can win an argument with a pre-dent on the internet.

The best I, or anyone can really give you is this. The lack of specialties on site gives the average student the ability to see and complete much more varied and complex procedures from the average dental student, and that the faculty and administration are dedicated to providing the best clinical education in general dentistry they are able to, and by admittedly subjective reports from GPR faculty and students, and private practice dentists all over the place, they're doing just that

Morning: 8:30 am -1pm:
9 extraction on 4 different patients (3 pts are emergency walk in)
2 crown prep on 2 different patients
2 master impression for dentures
1 root canal
3 amalgam filling
2 new patients exam

Afternoon: 1:30-4:30pm
1 RCT
1 crown deliver
4 amalgam restorations ( 2 on kids)
2 new patients exam (1 pt is a 2 yrs old who was crying)
1 more extraction at 4:15 pm

I think most people would agree that this individual is getting enough clinical exposure.

I think we can also agree that this situation would only be possible, for a dental student, on a rotation where you are getting operatories set up and broken down for you, and where you likely have an assistant. There's also clearly no time available in this schedule for instructor checks at an average of 20 minutes per procedure, including 4 very technique sensitive and highly time-consuming procedure (2 RCT and 2 crown preps + temporizations). I also see at least 17 procedures on that list that require anesthesia, which also takes time. Can you provide any more information about the length and nature of this rotation?

 

[armorshell]

Holy cow! Do you guys have people that do your scheduling, setup, standing-in-line, etc?

You're going to have to wait for him to ask a current student, since at this time he's a D0 in UCSF class of 2012.

 

[armorshell]

I just want to go on record stating I am sick of this thread and the friendly war between UOP and UCSF students. It sounds like both places are good dental schools both are in SF so let this go. I am sure the person who started this thread has gotten the info he was looking for. just my two cents

I think this is an important point. All the friendly arguments between UoP and UCSF are kind of funny, because both schools are ridiculously good. Sometimes we make it seem like everyone at the other school is going to come out as an embarrassment to dentistry and the worst clinician ever, or as a mindless technician who only knows to drill and fill, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

It reminds me of arguing with a professor over a single question when you've already got an A+ on the exam.

 

[NileBDS]

...
Morning: 8:30 am -1pm:
9 extraction on 4 different patients (3 pts are emergency walk in)
2 crown prep on 2 different patients
2 master impression for dentures
1 root canal
3 amalgam filling
2 new patients exam

Afternoon: 1:30-4:30pm
1 RCT
1 crown deliver
4 amalgam restorations ( 2 on kids)
2 new patients exam (1 pt is a 2 yrs old who was crying)
1 more extraction at 4:15 pm
...

One more reason to go to UCSF. Steroids.

 

[SororityOMFS]

Morning: 8:30 am -1pm:
9 extraction on 4 different patients (3 pts are emergency walk in) 1 hr
2 crown prep on 2 different patients 1 hr
2 master impression for dentures .5 hr
1 root canal .5 hr
3 amalgam filling .5 hr
2 new patients exam .5 hr

Afternoon: 1:30-4:30pm
1 RCT .5 hr
1 crown deliver .5 hr
4 amalgam restorations ( 2 on kids) .5 hr
2 new patients exam (1 pt is a 2 yrs old who was crying) .5 hr
1 more extraction at 4:15 pm .5 hr

I think most people would agree that this individual is getting enough clinical exposure.

haha....i don't believe it. I put some low ball times at the end. Typical new grad times WITH an assistant to get the patient and bay ready.

Was this a GPR resident or something? Or maybe a foriegn trained dentist who is here now? Do you rotate through 'clinics'? Like you're handed a chart, do the procedure and walk out? If so, that's kinda cool!

This just doesn't seem right though....too much production for a dental student!! haha

 

[tinker bell]

It's typical for a third year & fourth year dental student who is on externship. Very typical. They make more than 10G a week with ucsf fee schedule.
yes, at externship, they have very good assistants, giving chairs with patients ready so they can walk from cubicle to cubicle and do dentistry like real dentists do in private practice. They have 9 weeks of rotation, starting from the spring quarter of third year to winter of fourth year. This is one good thing about externship, practice and prepare for the real world, without worrying about being sued.

 

[Columbia07]

Armorshell, my friend..I appreciate the fact when you are arguing you are disagreeing with a friendly tone of voice. I thank you for that.

A. About the specialty rate, since you are hearing diff. numbers from diff. students, I believe you ..and I'll find that out for you. I could be wrong and thus I don't want to foolishly argue.

B. Questions 2 and 3 are not the same. Question 3 are the things that the school does, these are parts of the program/curriculum, they are the specific training that the school provides to their students and because of that their students become good at X,Y,Z. So, question 2 is simply asking for the XYZ. And question 3 is asking for the method that leads to the achievement of XYZ.

C. You are arguing that because our school has a number of specialties most of the challenging cases would go to the specialties. You are not 100% wrong about that. But what most people did not tell you is the fact that UCSF offers a very strong clinical rotations. So, if you do miss any thing in school you will get that in your clinical rotation. Let me put things into a perspective. Here's what a 4th year student did in one day of work. Now based on your experience as a dental student, or as someone who has worked/shadowed in a dental office, do you think this is a good representation of a typical work day in a dental office. Do you think this particular student is not getting sufficient clinical experience?

Morning: 8:30 am -1pm:
9 extraction on 4 different patients (3 pts are emergency walk in)
2 crown prep on 2 different patients
2 master impression for dentures
1 root canal
3 amalgam filling
2 new patients exam

Afternoon: 1:30-4:30pm
1 RCT
1 crown deliver
4 amalgam restorations ( 2 on kids)
2 new patients exam (1 pt is a 2 yrs old who was crying)
1 more extraction at 4:15 pm

I think most people would agree that this individual is getting enough clinical exposure.

1. I don't buy this "typical day." I'm always assisting on our clinic floor and students (3rd and 4th year) are given 4 hour blocks for 1, maybe 2 procedures, twice a day. Which means, at the end of the day you can, at most, do 4 procedures.

2. Crap, I assisted a case last week with a student (3rd yr) doing a class III and it took the student ~2.5hrs for set-up, checks and clean-up.

3. Also, I know here at USC we have sections where fixed is done, removable is done, endo, OMFS, etc. To do an OMFS procedure then run up to the 2nd floor and do two crown preps and then run down to the pedo dept in the basement for FOUR amalgams and then proceed to check-in two new patients on the first floor and then to the second floor for removable to do impressions for dentures (I'M NOT SURE, BUT DON'T MASTER IMPRESSIONS INVOLVE BORDER MOLDING, WHICH TAKES A F**KING LONG TIME) and then run downstairs to do an endo case??? You are dreaming kid.

4. With that "typical" schedule, most SC students could probably be done in just a few months.

 

[NileBDS]

It's typical for a third year & fourth year dental student who is on externship. Very typical. They make more than 10G a week with ucsf fee schedule.
yes, at externship, they have very good assistants, giving chairs with patients ready so they can walk from cubicle to cubicle and do dentistry like real dentists do in private practice. They have 9 weeks of rotation, starting from the spring quarter of third year to winter of fourth year. This is one good thing about externship, practice and prepare for the real world, without worrying about being sued.

On the risk of sounding defensive, I'm calling BS. What a joke !

You're going to sit here and actually tell us that you agree with that post ? And even say that it is "typical" production ? Unbelievable ...

I rotated at highland hospital in Oakland with a UCSF grad, who was there as part of his GPR training. Great guy, very talented. He explained to me however that he only got to do 2 endos the whole time he was in school ! Let's not even go into details about other disciplines. I guess he skipped on his $100,000 production externship, huh ?

 

[NileBDS]

Pacific doesn't do research....perhaps their students aren't used to backing up anything with evidence.

What a cheap shot.

 

[NileBDS]

This thread needs to chill. UoP or UCSF... it's all good!

I don't think the OP can go wrong with either one. If you really want to specialize, it doesn't matter where you go.

+1

 

[NileBDS]

i was wondering how much endo's make. you guys are saying he will lose a year of earnings. how much is that? not an endo that just started up but one that has a decent practice running for years.

I'd say anywhere north of $300,000 is fair for an established practice.

 

[NileBDS]

It's very hard to critique SDN postings by UCSF dental students/alumni, without being perceived as being a UCSF basher. Some of my posts may have been unintentionally tainted with negative tones. I just wanted to go on record and state my personal opinion that both UCSF and Pacific truly have great dental schools and both have a lot to offer, however much different and unique. I have a great deal of respect for both schools (and I'm not just saying that).

UCSF and Pacific enjoy a great relationship, both among students and administration. Both schools commonly share social events, community volunteering opportunities, faculty members (dual appointments), networking events and so on. Threads like this, make it seem that both schools are constantly at war, and have some degrees of animosity towards one another (at least between students). That has not been the case in my experience.

It annoys me when someone (who may not even be in dental school yet) comes on here and posts blatantly misleading information. This is very dangerous. I believe future applicants to either one of the schools reading SDN threads deserve an honest opinion about what to expect from each program.

 

[TomTomDDS]

I am going to try and keep this short and simple. I am a recent grad of UOP (06) and have been on the GPR trail for 2 years and now applying for OS.

First, In all my experiences with UCSF graduates at GPRs is that they are severely behind other recent grads right out of dental school, to the point that my previous director doesn't even bother to interview them even when they have good stats (boards etc.). The UOP name carries more after grad than many realize. If you think this doesn't matter for endo residency interviews, think again...

Second, the money isn't an issue. You will make double, triple even quadrulpe the 110 grand difference in once year of practice as an endodontist.

Third, for a guy whose biologic clock is already ticking at 24, time should be a huge consideration. If you match out of UOP, you saved a year, if you don't you are back to par. If you don't match out of UCSF, now you are down one.

Fourth, UCSF is a great school/institution, but I don't think anyone will stand up and say dentistry is there forte. UOP is a dental school and dental school only. Making great competent dentists is what they do.

Fifth, I have met many UCSF grads in my 2 years post grad so far, most of them regret UCSF or have little to say about it other than they love SF. Survey past and recent UOP grads, they all will likely stand by their dental school and actually hold it in high regard . . . which is rare for any graduate dentist as majority of dentists despise their dental school after graduation. Camaraderie (Humanistic environment) and happiness IS priceless.

Look at it this way - a ford focus will get you to where you want to go the same as a BMW - but wouldn't you rather be driving the BMW? Sorry to ford focus owners.

NileBDS,
I appreciate the fact that you pointed out that both schools have a lot in common, And both schools are great. I can not agree more with you. It is not that we dislike UoP or it's students. I have a lot of respect for you guys, your school and your faculty. But what is disappointing is the fact that people like OMSKooK, puts down our school without having enough evidence to backup those claims.

 

[UNR.Grad]

NileBDS,
I can not agree more with you. It is not that we dislike UoP or it's students.

Are you at UCSF yet?

 

[bass for less]

It's very hard to critique SDN postings by UCSF dental students/alumni, without being perceived as being a UCSF basher. Some of my posts may have been unintentionally tainted with negative tones. I just wanted to go on record and state my personal opinion that both UCSF and Pacific truly have great dental schools and both have a lot to offer, however much different and unique. I have a great deal of respect for both schools (and I'm not just saying that).

UCSF and Pacific enjoy a great relationship, both among students and administration. Both schools commonly share social events, community volunteering opportunities, faculty members (dual appointments), networking events and so on. Threads like this, make it seem that both schools are constantly at war, and have some degrees of animosity towards one another (at least between students). That has not been the case in my experience.

It annoys me when someone (who may not even be in dental school yet) comes on here and posts blatantly misleading information. This is very dangerous. I believe future applicants to either one of the schools reading SDN threads deserve an honest opinion about what to expect from each program.

I totally agree with you Niles. I thought both schools are great and just very competent in producing good dentists. My friend got her DDS from UCSF and then did AEGD at UoP, she has good things to say about both schools (another anecdote about good experiences here at Nor. Cal.)
I am tired of listening to the bashers. A lot of times you see the unhappy and unsatisfied bash on things that have zip to do with the real root causes of their unhappiness.

 

[gipsygirldds]

i had the opportunity to spend a quarter in another US dental school, before moving to UOP, and boy let me tell u what a diff i felt there. i dont think there is any other school like UOP. the "humanistic" approach all troughout ur school years makes u very confident, very caring and "humanistic". Sky is the limit , honestly if you want to learn and go on. i wanted to be the best general dentist ever, and they gave me enough preparation to feel confident on the very first day of job , alone in a facility operationg 3 chairs without any stress. thank u UOP, and i will support you forever.

 

[brycethefatty]

.

It absolutely brightens my day when I find a post like this from Yatzee. I know it means that he said something that he really regreted, and he's letting us know that by just leaving a period. Yeah for Yatzee!

 

[54807]

i had the opportunity to spend a quarter in another US dental school, before moving to UOP, and boy let me tell u what a diff i felt there. i dont think there is any other school like UOP. the "humanistic" approach all troughout ur school years makes u very confident, very caring and "humanistic". Sky is the limit , honestly if you want to learn and go on. i wanted to be the best general dentist ever, and they gave me enough preparation to feel confident on the very first day of job , alone in a facility operationg 3 chairs without any stress. thank u UOP, and i will support you forever.

yeah...but does that really matter?! UCSF has an AMAZING subway. They toast their bread in this way I have never experienced before....and the way they spread their chipotle sauce....second to none.

 

[Endo2001]

Good thing you latched onto the only defensible part of your original post, the rest of which GoneEndo proved to be BS. Drs. Peters were both recruited by The Gluskin when they were still teaching in Switzerland, and from what I understand the whole UCSF residency was just to get the correct licensure to be able to teach at UoP. Note that they're also heading up the fancy new endo research lab here.

I saw this discussion by chance and found it very interesting. There are some aspects that may be in need of corrections though. For example, both Drs Peters were NOT recruited by Dr Gluskin out of Switzerland at all. Also, Dr Ove Peters was hardly a regular resident, in fact like his wife and he had already gone through a 3-year endodontic residency in Switzerland before they came to the US in 2001. At that time he also had quite a number of papers and chapters in textbooks including Pathways of the Pulp. From what I know, he came originally to the US to work in a UCSF research lab.

I think an endodontic residency in a US-accredited school is neither required to teach at UOP nor UCSF. Neither is a regular dental license a requirement; there are quite a few foreigners with different backgrounds teaching endodontics in US schools around the country. It is just very difficult to get anybody to do teaching in endodontics full time when private practice is so much more lucrative.

It looks like there was misinformation and also hurt feelings, would be better to get the facts straight. BTW, what is so fancy about the UOP endodontic research lab anyway, I would love to know!

As for the core of the postings, it seems there is the money question, which is kind of undecided. It depends at the individual circumstances and so it is hard to give any recommendation.

Teaching in endo may be not much different between the two schools but there are more and more difficult cases at UOP because there is no postgrad program. Then, the issue remains of the chance to get into a endo school, potentially into the program of choice. It often comes down to the potential to get to know, and ideally impress, someone who can then recommend you to a program director. At his time, Dr Goodis had that clout at UCSF but it needs to be seen how the post-Goodis generation will work out in this regard. On the other hand, UOP apparently has a few people that have excellent contacts to several programs.

Hope that helps but most likely I am too late with this.