UCD vs RCSI: Residency and Curriculum GEP

[chemical]

Anyone could shed some light on which (RCSI or UCD) have better US (not canada) residency matches. Also, which one has a better curriculum?

For example: on UCD website, the Human form module involves about 16 hours of dissection but it does not say whether the student themselves would dissect the cadaver. I know US medical schools spend much more than 16 hours on dissecting and studying human body. RCSI GEP curriculum is very vague and does not actually give details. Do they both use cadavers?

Thanks!

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[LeafsFan19]

From a report by CIMSA (Canadian Irish Medical Students Association), based on 2012 match. Sorry it's long, I c/p'ed from ppt. In terms of curriculum, people who are currently at the schools would be better qualified to respond. RCSI does 2 afternoons a week of anatomy lab for the first semester, which adds up to a heck of a lot more than 16 hours. Not sure what UCD does.

RCSI
– 29 applied to CaRMS:
• 17 matched
• 2 pulled out after interviews in favour of the US (1 pre-
match and 1 who had a 1st choice program in the states)
• 2 went without interviews
• Remaining 8 had interviews and did not match successfully

• 3 matched in the US 1st Round
– 4 Canadians applied solely to the US- All 4 matched
– 4 Canadians did not partake in match in favour of
intern year

1st Round Results

• Family Medicine:
1 Memorial Nfld
3 University of Toronto
1 Queen's University
1 University of Western Ontario
1 University of Manitoba

• Paediatrics:
1 University of Toronto (Sick Kids)
1 University of Queens
1 University of Saskatchewan
1 University of Western Ontario

• Internal Medicine
1 University of Toronto
1 University of Ottawa
1 University of Western Ontario
1 Queen's University

• General Surgery
– 1 University of Western Ontario

• ENT
– 1 University of Ottawa

RCSI- ERAS matches

• Family Medicine:
– 1 Klamath Falls, Oregan
– 1 Providence, Rhode Island, Brown University

• Internal Medicine:
– 2 Cleveland Clinic, Ohio
– 1 Pennsylvania Hospital, Philadelphia
– 1 St. Luke's & Roosevelt (NYC)

• General Surgery:
– 1 University of Southern Ohio

• Obstetrics Gynaecology:
– 1 University of Vermont
– 1 Baystate, Massachusetts

2nd Round Results
• 9 applied
• No matches in the 2nd round for 2012 grads
• Family Medicine:
– 1 (2010 Grad) Memorial University Nfld.

UCD:
• 18 Applied first round Canada
– 12 matched first round
– 5 entering second round
– 1 who didn't match in Canada had also applied to the
US and matched in the US

• 12 Applied first round USA (mix of Canadian and
American)
– 11 matched first round
– 1 matched in SOAP but turned position down

1st Round Results

• Family Medicine
– 3 University of Manitoba (1 rural, 1 urban, 1 northern remote)
– 1 Dalhousie University
– 1 University of Toronto

• Paediatrics
– 1 University of Ottawa

• Psychiatry
– 1 University of Toronto
– 1 University of Western Ontario

• Internal Medicine
– 1 University of Toronto
– 1 University of Ottawa
– 1 University of Western Ontario

• General Surgery
– 1 University of Toronto

UCD- ERAS Results

• Family Medicine
– Mayo Clinic

• Internal Medicine
– Mayo Clinic
– University of Pennsylvania
– Case Western Reserve

• General Surgery
– Lennox Hill (NYC)

• Paediatrics
– University of Louisville

• Psychiatry
– University of Buffalo
– University of Pittsburg

 

[chemical]

Thanks so much! This was really helpful.

I was under the impression that there were more north american GEPs students in RCSI and to see the match rate is a bit discouraging. UCD's matching applicants doesn't seem to be too much in numbers but most of them seemed to get a spot at least. I was also under the impression that RCSI is geared more for USMLE while UCD may not be. Is this true?

Also, what can u tell me about the dublin life and each of the hospitals the different programs have? pros/cons? I have to decide soon!

 

[LeafsFan19]

Thanks so much! This was really helpful.

I was under the impression that there were more north american GEPs students in RCSI and to see the match rate is a bit discouraging. UCD's matching applicants doesn't seem to be too much in numbers but most of them seemed to get a spot at least. I was also under the impression that RCSI is geared more for USMLE while UCD may not be. Is this true?

Also, what can u tell me about the dublin life and each of the hospitals the different programs have? pros/cons? I have to decide soon!

From what I've been told, RCSI has a dedicated USMLE prep faculty member, and they're usually ahead of the other schools when it comes to adapting to changes in the North American system. I'm honestly biased though because I picked RCSI. The smaller program and dedicated campus facilities appealed to me. UCD is a large undergrad-style campus, and I'm not 18-22 anymore so I didn't want to be in that environment. RCSI does 1st year in a different location than 2nd year, and 3rd/4th all over the country so it could be good or bad depending on how you see it (for me, fully paid trip around Ireland and the opportunity to work in different places ). Best to hear the UCD side from someone who has their heart set on going there though.

 

[jnuts]

I picked RCSI and really liked it so I'm biased that way. As far as I know, match rates are largely equivocal with inter-year variation much more significant than intercollegiate. Both schools will prepare you very well for North American practice. There are very few differences between the material I learned and what I'm teaching my current medical students. There are some timing differences between the two regions, for example pharmacology is pre-clinical in the USA and clinical in Ireland which impacts student preparation for USMLE Step 1. Student selected (or elective) exposure to subspecialties is not as available in Ireland as Irish students are expected to make specialty choices much later in their post-graduate training. Again these differences are mostly consistent across all of the Irish medical schools as the curriculum is standardized by a central authority. The final two clinical years are almost identical between the two schools and are standardized by the Irish Medical Council. Both schools have teaching at peripheral sites.

As far as asking for compare and contrast scenarios, no student goes to both schools and contact between the programs is pretty limited. It's difficult to get beyond anecdotal evidence. I know the RCSI program but I only have anecdotal information about UCD. As a result, this post is going to come across as largely pro-RCSI but that's only because I'm not in a position to extoll the advantages of UCD (of which I'm sure there are many). I may also have some misconceptions about UCD due to the second-hand nature of my information. I hope someone from UCD will correct me if that's the case.

The curriculum at RCSI is a contemporary, heavily North American influenced, medical education. The overall approach for the pre-clinical years is systems based didactic instruction with a substantial problem-based learning component. Clinical skills are taught in small group, physician led sessions. There is a small amount of auto-tutorial learning as well. Clinical instruction is mixed didactic and applied instruction in about the same mix as an average North American medical school. Small group clinical instruction continues through the clinical years. The overall educational ethos is identical to all North American schools: evidenced based medicine with a patient centered care model (I'm sure UCD is too). For an in depth description of RCSI GEP life please see my post: day in the life of a Dublin Medical Student.

Big differences:
1) Separate GEP classes at RCSI for year one and two. As far as I know the UCD pre-clinical classes are taken with the younger students in single large classes. Pre-clinical acceleration is accomplished simply by a heavier course load. You don't do any classes with the high school graduates at RCSI until the clinical years creating a functional class size of about 60 students. Pre-clinical acceleration at RCSI is a combination of increased course load and an increased speed of instruction.

2) The GEP program at RCSI is at a completely different site from the main college for years one and two. The UCD pre-clinical program is on campus about 30 minutes south of the city center. The RCSI sites are as follows: the first year is held at Sandyford (near UCD) for everything except anatomy which is held in the main college site in the city centre. The college arranges transport for first year clinical exposure. In the second year teaching is on the grounds of Blanchardstown Hospital (about 30 minutes northwest of the city centre) and combines classroom work with early clinical exposure on the wards and in clinics.

3)Early clinical exposure at RCSI. RCSI has a year and a half of clinical half days and three months dedicated months of clinical time in years one and two. As far as I know that's unique to RCSI GEP

4) Surgical exposure at RCSI. RCSI may have more surgical rotations than UCD given that it is also the certifying body for surgical training and practice in Ireland. As a consequence more of the Profs tend to be surgeons. The main teaching site at RCSI is Beaumont hospital which is the main tertiary surgical center in Dublin. The overall difference is likely not too dramatic but you may get some exposure to surgical subspecialties through RCSI that may not be available at UCD.

5) RCSI has more reciprocal electives than UCD with American schools.

6) Administrative flexibility at RCSI. In the past RCSI has been faster to innovate and adapt to changing requirements for medical students (both in Ireland and Internationally). I think this is just a function of not having an over-arching University bureaucracy.

7) Since you brought up anatomy, RCSI has a larger anatomy program than the other Dublin schools (again as a result of it being the surgical training body). Anatomy training is a point of pride at RCSI and you do your own dissection work with supervision from staff. That part of the program at RCSI is a stalwart of classical medical education (read: didactic and Socratic with very little PBL).

 

[CamTheFirst]

Amazing post. Thank you Jnuts. I've been accepted into RCSI and starting in September and I'm definitely looking forward to it.

 

[chemical]

Thanks for all the replies, they are really helpful. Do you have any information regarding whether both schools allow a student to eventually work in the EU if they decide not to go back to N. America? In part of the agreement of acceptance it is written that for UCd that If i accept, I am understanding that the place I am accepting is a "non-EU" place. Does this mean that there will be no opportunities to work in the EU if I choose so? Also does RCSI allow graduates to stay in Eu?

 

[jnuts]

The non-EU place boilerplate is likely more to do with funding. You're committing to paying non-EU fees and not turning around and revealing that you're actually an EU resident asking for the subsidy. It's theoretically possible that an EU resident could do that to get around the domestic admissions process.

The next phase of training in Ireland is the Internship year. The internship year is a rotating job with a combination of medical and surgical placements (and recently the option of things like obstetrics/paediatrics/ER/radiology/family practice). What school you attended has no direct bearing on an application to these jobs. Internship posts are managed by the schools but the application process is a like a simplified version of the Canadian and US matches. All graduates from Irish (and some EU schools) rank specific Internship jobs, with specific sites and rotations, according to their preferences from any available in the country. At graduation the class rank of the applicant alone determines who gets their first preference job. If you don't match to a specific job you've ranked then they try to match you by geographic preference.

Once all the EU citizens have jobs then the left over jobs are offered to non-EU applicants again based on class rank. There have historically been enough excess jobs that most non-EU grads who have wanted them get something. That may fluctuate with economic pressures. There is counter-pressure from both hospitals who consider Interns useful and the Medical establishment which is very reluctant to not complete their graduates medical training (see below). Additionally, a fair number of Irish medical school EU graduates, who would normally be in the running for Intern jobs, may leave for further training in the UK or North America leaving places for non-EU graduates. In general, Intern year pay has been cut recently for everyone; but the number of spots has stayed constant or grown. It is possible that the competition for these spots may increase if a higher number of North American graduates are unable to match back home.

Unless things change, EU citizens by right under the EU treaty must be considered first for any employment vacancy. The EU treaty also prevents preferential employment for Irish citizens over other EU applicants. There's an outside chance that Ireland might try to limit further training to only graduates of EU places in the medical class, but that position would be really though to maintain if an EU citizen in a non-EU place decided to challenge it legally.

Non-EU Irish grads can also apply for jobs in the rest of the EU; for example the UK foundation year program. But the same stipulation usually applies that EU citizens have to be considered first. Another thing to note is that the internship year is considered part of basic medical training in Ireland. However, some European countries have no equivalent to the internship year and will not accept Irish grads into more advanced posts without the completion of an Irish Internship or equivalent. The Irish Medical Council won't put you on the General Register without internship training or an equivalent and that may limit the portability of your degree. In practical terms, if you don't secure an internship job somewhere you might have problems relocating to other countries that use the British medical training system that requires an Intern year, namely: the UK, parts of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan and South Africa.

 

[CuriousGee]

Would you say it was advantageous to do this intern year? Do Irish grads that stay for an intern year do better in CaRMS?

 

[jnuts]

Would you say it was advantageous to do this intern year? Do Irish grads that stay for an intern year do better in CaRMS?

http://www.medicalcouncil.ie/Educat...-Supervised-Division/Internship-Registration/

Tough question and I don't think there's an absolute answer. People do match after the intern year but I wouldn't subjectively say they do better. In general, most people match immediately after graduating and do not do the intern year.

The advantages to doing the intern year are: 1)Money: the intern year can be more lucrative than a year of residency but that may change given the financial situation in Ireland. The financial benefit is largely contingent on overtime pay. 2)Full qualification in Ireland: Ireland requires the Intern year for full qualification. If you ever plan on returning to Europe or working in Aus/NZ finishing the intern year might streamline things for you (looking VERY far down the road with that one so things may change). 3) If you're targeting certain areas in North America (e.g. BC) you have to take a year off to do their IMG evaluation scheme anyway and an Intern year might be a way to kill time.

The disadvantages are: 1)Stale-dating your North American application: Most North American schools will not accept post-graduates for electives which means you might be a stale candidate if you take a year between your final med electives and applying to CaRMS/ERAS. 2)Certain residencies might qualify as equivalent to the Intern year anyway: Ireland does recognize some foreign training as equivalent to the intern year. They'll accept some jurisdictions (I think Aus and a few others) at face value and consider North American Internship(the old name for the first year of Residency) on a case-by-case basis. The critical point is that you need to do at least three months of Medicine AND Surgery. Most North American surgical residencies have medical rotations but not the other way round. 3)All you're really doing is saving yourself an exam down the road: if you don't do the intern year and decide later you want to work in Ireland all you need to do is write the PRES exam. If, however, you want to work in other jurisdictions you'd have to look at the country specific rules. You won't get the automatic portability that goes along with full registration with the Irish Medical Council (to the rest of the EU for example).

 

[Lee2000]

Amazing post. Thank you Jnuts. I've been accepted into RCSI and starting in September and I'm definitely looking forward to it.

Me too

 

[whamy]

From a report by CIMSA (Canadian Irish Medical Students Association), based on 2012 match. Sorry it's long, I c/p'ed from ppt. In terms of curriculum, people who are currently at the schools would be better qualified to respond. RCSI does 2 afternoons a week of anatomy lab for the first semester, which adds up to a heck of a lot more than 16 hours. Not sure what UCD does.

RCSI
– 29 applied to CaRMS:
• 17 matched
• 2 pulled out after interviews in favour of the US (1 pre-
match and 1 who had a 1st choice program in the states)
• 2 went without interviews
• Remaining 8 had interviews and did not match successfully

• 3 matched in the US 1st Round
– 4 Canadians applied solely to the US- All 4 matched
– 4 Canadians did not partake in match in favour of
intern year

1st Round Results

• Family Medicine:
1 Memorial Nfld
3 University of Toronto
1 Queen’s University
1 University of Western Ontario
1 University of Manitoba

• Paediatrics:
1 University of Toronto (Sick Kids)
1 University of Queens
1 University of Saskatchewan
1 University of Western Ontario

urg

Hi - can you provide me with the link to above study , I need to research the stats for NUIG thanks

 

[jnuts]

Hi - can you provide me with the link to above study , I need to research the stats for NUIG thanks

There is no study. It's student reported data. NUIG students have traditionally not been very forthcoming on this forum.

 

[Mary Anne]

Hi,I'm a new member and I need some advice.I'm a Canadian grade 12 student,I have a strong passion for medicine.I am accepted at Royal college in Dublin and also at Liverpool school of medicine.I'm really thinking all the time about which one to choose,my question is which one would be easier to come back to Canada from?RCSI is sooooo expensive!!! but is it more internationally renowned?please advise,thanks

 

[NeuroCritDoc]

RCSI has a better reputation in Canada IMO.

 

[Medstart108]

Go to Liverpool. RCSI is way too expensive. I'm assuming you are doing the 6 year program. Not only is RCSI more expensive per year you also need an extra year. Liverpool is 5 years and is much cheaper per year. You have to factor in lost earnings as well because if you graduate in 5 instead of 6 you earn an extra year of salary. You won't regret it. Not only that, but "reputation" is practically non-existent in medicine unless you graduated from one of the top schools and i doubt any PI can honestly say the Liverpool is any worse in reputation than RCSI or UCD.

In medicine there really are only two tiers. The elite and normal. The vast majority of schools are in the normal category.

Lastly, Liverpool will give you the option of doing FY1 and FY2 years in the UK and the possibility of staying to practice in the UK if you decide to or somehow you can't get back to Canada/US (unlikely). Also know that Liverpool is more competitive than RCSI since UK medical schools have quotas on internationals. You had to beat the quota to get in at Liverpool.

 

[Mary Anne]

Go to Liverpool. RCSI is way too expensive. I'm assuming you are doing the 6 year program. Not only is RCSI more expensive per year you also need an extra year. Liverpool is 5 years and is much cheaper per year. You have to factor in lost earnings as well because if you graduate in 5 instead of 6 you earn an extra year of salary. You won't regret it. Not only that, but "reputation" is practically non-existent in medicine unless you graduated from one of the top schools and i doubt any PI can honestly say the Liverpool is any worse in reputation than RCSI or UCD.

In medicine there really are only two tiers. The elite and normal. The vast majority of schools are in the normal category.

Lastly, Liverpool will give you the option of doing FY1 and FY2 years in the UK and the possibility of staying to practice in the UK if you decide to or somehow you can't get back to Canada/US (unlikely). Also know that Liverpool is more competitive than RCSI since UK medical schools have quotas on internationals. You had to beat the quota to get in at Liverpool.

Thanks so much for your reply,my only concern is that RCSI is geared towards international students,help arrange electives in US and Canada,adapt to new changes in Carms plus I will have a lot of peer support all through, lots of Canadians r there.
In Liverpool I'll have not much support and I'll have to arrange everything myself and maybe I'll have no luck to arrange electives or prepare for USMLE.
I know you're in university of St.Andrews,can u tell me more about options of staying in UK after graduation,is this guaranteed?and is this equivalent to residency,and then what happens after they r done?Thanks in advance

 

[Medstart108]

Thanks so much for your reply,my only concern is that RCSI is geared towards international students,help arrange electives in US and Canada,adapt to new changes in Carms plus I will have a lot of peer support all through, lots of Canadians r there.
In Liverpool I'll have not much support and I'll have to arrange everything myself and maybe I'll have no luck to arrange electives or prepare for USMLE.
I know you're in university of St.Andrews,can u tell me more about options of staying in UK after graduation,is this guaranteed?and is this equivalent to residency,and then what happens after they r done?Thanks in advance

Sorry for the rushed response exams are tomorrow!

Its true that at Liverpool you won't have as much support as if you were at RCSI. However, you will have no trouble arranging electives or preparing for USMLE. RCSI doesn't give you any electives, you have to arrange them yourself so its no different from Liverpool.

Electives are applied for just like applying for university. You will have no trouble getting an elective, the standards are much lower than for admissions so its just a matter of going to the website, submitting an application.

However, the interesting thing is because there will be fewer people, (there will certainly be another Canadian in the school and most people there will be several) you will stick together and help each other more.

USMLE can easily be prepared for on your own. There are countless websites dedicated to IMGs and you can use those to help u find the right tools. Remember, you will meet people all the time from different universities and you will have people to help you on your way.

The option for staying for the 1st 2 years postgraduation is 100% guaranteed. These years are FY1 and FY2. You are paid very well in those years. You work officially 40 hours a week 9-5 for a base salary of around 26k pounds. In reality you will be working about 60 hours a week. If you are willing to work less sociable hours like night shifts your pay goes up dramatically up to around 45k pounds a year. After FY1 or FY2 i can't remember you are officially licensed as a doctor according to the GMC. Then you apply for specialty training spots. Everyone who graduates from a UK medical school is treated equally for specialty spots. If you get a spot you are allowed to work as a UK doctor forever. You can even come back to Canada to practice after your specialty training (equivalent to residency) especially if its in Family Medicine.

During your final year in med school, FY1 or FY2 years you can apply to the US and Canada (this is what most native brits who want to emigrate to the US do).

 

[syma]

Sorry for the rushed response exams are tomorrow!

Its true that at Liverpool you won't have as much support as if you were at RCSI. However, you will have no trouble arranging electives or preparing for USMLE. RCSI doesn't give you any electives, you have to arrange them yourself so its no different from Liverpool.

Electives are applied for just like applying for university. You will have no trouble getting an elective, the standards are much lower than for admissions so its just a matter of going to the website, submitting an application.

However, the interesting thing is because there will be fewer people, (there will certainly be another Canadian in the school and most people there will be several) you will stick together and help each other more.

USMLE can easily be prepared for on your own. There are countless websites dedicated to IMGs and you can use those to help u find the right tools. Remember, you will meet people all the time from different universities and you will have people to help you on your way.

The option for staying for the 1st 2 years postgraduation is 100% guaranteed. These years are FY1 and FY2. You are paid very well in those years. You work officially 40 hours a week 9-5 for a base salary of around 26k pounds. In reality you will be working about 60 hours a week. If you are willing to work less sociable hours like night shifts your pay goes up dramatically up to around 45k pounds a year. After FY1 or FY2 i can't remember you are officially licensed as a doctor according to the GMC. Then you apply for specialty training spots. There is a preference for EU citizens (if you get married to a Brit/EU person you get EU citizenship) at this stage, but internationals often do get spots. If you get a spot you are allowed to work as a UK doctor forever. You can even come back to Canada to practice after your specialty training (equivalent to residency) especially if its in Family Medicine.

During your final year in med school, FY1 or FY2 years you can apply to the US and Canada (this is what most native brits who want to emigrate to the US do).

You're GMC fully registered after FY1.

 

[jnuts]

Sorry for the rushed response exams are tomorrow!

Its true that at Liverpool you won't have as much support as if you were at RCSI. However, you will have no trouble arranging electives or preparing for USMLE. RCSI doesn't give you any electives, you have to arrange them yourself so its no different from Liverpool.

Not exactly true. RCSI has reciprocal electives that provide spots for their students at US and some Canadian schools. It works like an exchange program. I have no idea if Liverpool has similar arrangements.

 

[Mary Anne]

Not exactly true. RCSI has reciprocal electives that provide spots for their students at US and some Canadian schools. It works like an exchange program. I have no idea if Liverpool has similar arrangements.

Thanks Jnuts,so would u say that getting a residency spot would be easier,a bit from RCSI than Liverpool?

 

[Mary Anne]

Sorry for the rushed response exams are tomorrow!

Its true that at Liverpool you won't have as much support as if you were at RCSI. However, you will have no trouble arranging electives or preparing for USMLE. RCSI doesn't give you any electives, you have to arrange them yourself so its no different from Liverpool.

Electives are applied for just like applying for university. You will have no trouble getting an elective, the standards are much lower than for admissions so its just a matter of going to the website, submitting an application.

However, the interesting thing is because there will be fewer people, (there will certainly be another Canadian in the school and most people there will be several) you will stick together and help each other more.

USMLE can easily be prepared for on your own. There are countless websites dedicated to IMGs and you can use those to help u find the right tools. Remember, you will meet people all the time from different universities and you will have people to help you on your way.

The option for staying for the 1st 2 years postgraduation is 100% guaranteed. These years are FY1 and FY2. You are paid very well in those years. You work officially 40 hours a week 9-5 for a base salary of around 26k pounds. In reality you will be working about 60 hours a week. If you are willing to work less sociable hours like night shifts your pay goes up dramatically up to around 45k pounds a year. After FY1 or FY2 i can't remember you are officially licensed as a doctor according to the GMC. Then you apply for specialty training spots. There is a preference for EU citizens (if you get married to a Brit/EU person you get EU citizenship) at this stage, but internationals often do get spots. If you get a spot you are allowed to work as a UK doctor forever. You can even come back to Canada to practice after your specialty training (equivalent to residency) especially if its in Family Medicine.

During your final year in med school, FY1 or FY2 years you can apply to the US and Canada (this is what most native brits who want to emigrate to the US do).

Hi thanks so much for this amazing reply,but when I asked in Liverpool about working there after graduation it did not seem so easy or guaranteed so much,could this be fro some universities more than others or it's a national law?

 

[Medstart108]

Hi thanks so much for this amazing reply,but when I asked in Liverpool about working there after graduation it did not seem so easy or guaranteed so much,could this be fro some universities more than others or it's a national law?

Its a national law so there is no difference between schools. From asking around it does seem like they have a preference for UK students when applying for specialties, but international students do get spots. Either way, Liverpool will allow you at least 2 years of post-grad training and during that time you can apply back to Canada or the US.

http://www.foundationprogramme.nhs.uk/pages/home/Tier-4-Visas

Heres a link from the foundation program which is the post-graduate training program for the UK. You will need to renew your visa to apply for FY1 but it does say you are eligible to apply. I don't believe there is discrimination for the foundation posts (after all they even block the medical school you came from).