UCD or RCSI?

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porkchop

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Hey everyone :) . I'm new to this forum. I will be attending either RCSI or UCD this fall and have yet to decide which. :confused: I have some questions and really hope that perhaps some current students of these 2 institutions can help me with. I'm having a hard time deciding which one to go to. Are the facilities better in RCSI or UCD? I'm not a sports person or someone who's into joining clubs and societies..just hope to know which institution has better facilities for medical teaching. Which one provides more and/or earlier patient contact?

Does anyone have the curriculum of RCSI detailing the subjects and electives taken? Or perhaps a web link to it? I already have that of UCD but the RCSI website isn't really too comprehensive. It would really help my decision. :)

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

Forever grateful,
porkchop
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Good luck in your application, dlformiga1! All the best!

Yep, I have scoured through the RCSi and UCD websites and did come across the page on the RCSI Curriculum & Examinations. Didn't find it pretty helpful though -- really wanted to know a list of subjects we would be studying listed by Phase/Semester/Year. Does anyone know when patient contact starts at both RCSI and CD? Thanks!
 
Patient contact in RCSI starts after 1.5 yrs of the 5 year program as far as I know it starts earlier than UCD because Penang classmates have told me when they go back they'll be ahead of the UCD students and will be relearning some stuff.
 
I'm a final yr med student at UCD and have recently regretted my decision to go to this college...They're not very supportive about the need/desire to head back to North America and the importance of timing etc while planning on applying to residency...I have to have Obs and Paeds done before the summer and their "random" way of selecting the students and the order of the rotations has screwed some North Americans over that are in my class...including myself...

Maybe consider RCSI...

porkchop said:
Hey everyone :) . I'm new to this forum. I will be attending either RCSI or UCD this fall and have yet to decide which. :confused: I have some questions and really hope that perhaps some current students of these 2 institutions can help me with. I'm having a hard time deciding which one to go to. Are the facilities better in RCSI or UCD? I'm not a sports person or someone who's into joining clubs and societies..just hope to know which institution has better facilities for medical teaching. Which one provides more and/or earlier patient contact?

Does anyone have the curriculum of RCSI detailing the subjects and electives taken? Or perhaps a web link to it? I already have that of UCD but the RCSI website isn't really too comprehensive. It would really help my decision. :)

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!

Forever grateful,
porkchop
Click to expand...
 
Katie

Im sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I would like to hear more about your overall feel since your about to finish? What is good and what is bad? How will this recent problem affect you exactly? Will you be off a whole year?
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
Katie

Im sorry to hear you had a bad experience. I would like to hear more about your overall feel since your about to finish? What is good and what is bad? How will this recent problem affect you exactly? Will you be off a whole year?
Click to expand...

I'm with Mike on this one. This is the first I've heard anyone say negatives regarding UCD, and I'm curious.
 
kateinireland said:
I'm a final yr med student at UCD and have recently regretted my decision to go to this college...They're not very supportive about the need/desire to head back to North America and the importance of timing etc while planning on applying to residency...I have to have Obs and Paeds done before the summer and their "random" way of selecting the students and the order of the rotations has screwed some North Americans over that are in my class...including myself...

Maybe consider RCSI...
Click to expand...

I guess that there is a general theme here and that is that there is a lot of dissatisfaction with Irish Medical Schools in general. RCSI is no better, in fact probably worse, consdering that you are paying approximately 50% more in tuition and have to deal with more bureaucratic crap than any other Irish medical school. RCSI may appear more accommodating from the outside, but the truth is that you will meet resistance every step of the way when it comes to undertaking the essential steps (ie., USMLEs, electives, residency interviews) to return to your home for postgraduate training. Some of you may argue that this perspective is that held by only North Americans, but rightfully so, considering that, at least at RCSI, we make up approximately 20-25% of the class, and contribute more financially to the school. As for Irish students, you will hear this sentiment expressed rarely in public settings, but behind closed doors, many Irish students will echo these opinions. What prevents them from publicly voicing their opinions is that they are afraid of being labelled as 'trouble makers' (as the RCSI administration labels anyone with a differing opinion of theirs, whether right or wrong) and being subject to reprocussions during their postgraduate training in the Irish System.

At this point, I'm glad that I am no longer a pawn, I mean a student at RCSI. I'm back home in North America enjoying my residency thoroughly and appreciative that I am now in a supportive educational environment that is allowing me to develop to my full potential as a physician. However, I do regret that I didn't have a better experience in Medical School at RCSI. If only the school took a different approach, one in which they were more supportive and less antagonistic to their students' endeavors, I would have left with much warmer feelings towards RCSI. Instead, I left with a great feeling of dissatisfaction about the 5 years that I spent at RCSI and very little respect for the professional integrity of many of its administrators.

RCSI alumnus 2005
 
wow

Well I absolutely want to hear all the bad things as well. Alot of people will put positive spins on everything but im old enough to know that is never the reality. I thank you very much for telling your story and would lvoe to hear more from you, or others that have had positive or negative experience. This is what people need to make informed decisions.
 
I too would love to hear about both of your stories, as I have applied to both of these schools!
 
Jocks said:
I'm with Mike on this one. This is the first I've heard anyone say negatives regarding UCD, and I'm curious.
Click to expand...

I'm with Mike and Jocks too! Haven't heard anyone complain about UCD and I AM curious! My friends at UCD seem to be so happy there that they're criticizing RCSI all the way...
 
With all being said, I am happy at UCD...there are just little things that make the North Americans very very frustrated...This whole rotation situation just put me over the top because all of the little annoying things are now hindering my career in the end...I guess I'm venting but most of all, if I had known that MAY have happened I might not have chosen to go to UCD. Don't get me wrong...there are only four North Americans in my class that are getting screwed over at the moment so its not like we're all in a bad way...but its terrible to be one of those four...the whole method of assigning is far too random (its too important to some).

I have put so much effort into the whole rotation situation (contacted those "above") and received zero support and this upsets me...I don't want to leave here with a bad feeling because I really have enjoyed my time here and will be incredibly sad to go...but I am frustrated with the administrative disorganization that goes on at this school...and I thought people should know this exists...
 
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So does this make you ineligible for Paeds and OB/GYN residency since you have not completed the rotations before your interviews? I guess no program director in those fields would even consider you if the core rotations haven't been completed.

Is there any way to prevent this from happening to future students? Let us know how things work out for you Kate and good luck!

I'm sure it's like this at RCSI, Trinity, and Cork....
 
It is similar in all schools - at the moment, your rotation schedule is assigned randomly. I happen to be one of the lucky ones who will finish all the cores (Psych, Obs/Gyn, Ent/Opth, Paeds) before the end of this summer, and so can get by the rule of some US schools that foreign elective students need to complete cores before undertaking rotations. Just know that not ALL US schools have this requirement, nor do all US schools require that you be in your final year before undertaking an elective.

What ends up happening with the US students is a lot of going behind administrator's backs. They can be so disorganized that they won't even know it's happening, and if they do know, there's really f___ all they can do about it . What gets NA's into trouble is when someone tries to play by the rules and be a good student and inform administrators of their intentions (like knowing they'll miss a presentation to take the USMLE that day and asking if they can make it up somehow another time). Sometimes you just have to plan these things discretely and run with it. They say they're taking attendance at rotations, but there's no system of enforcing it. And although you as a student do not want to be running behind people's backs, you may be forced to do it as your priorities are more important than their petty wishes. I know people at my school who have arranged loads of electives in the US and Canada without the admins even knowing.
 
leorl


wow.

I dont even know what to say. None of that really sounds positive.
 
leorl said:
What ends up happening with the US students is a lot of going behind administrator's backs. They can be so disorganized that they won't even know it's happening, and if they do know, there's really f___ all they can do about it . What gets NA's into trouble is when someone tries to play by the rules and be a good student and inform administrators of their intentions (like knowing they'll miss a presentation to take the USMLE that day and asking if they can make it up somehow another time). Sometimes you just have to plan these things discretely and run with it. They say they're taking attendance at rotations, but there's no system of enforcing it. And although you as a student do not want to be running behind people's backs, you may be forced to do it as your priorities are more important than their petty wishes. I know people at my school who have arranged loads of electives in the US and Canada without the admins even knowing.
Click to expand...

This approach to scheduling the USMLEs, arranging electives and traveling for residency interviews was very similar at RCSI. It seems that the students that practiced skills such as preplanning and time management (basically students that took responsibility for their own education) and had characteristics such as honesty and diligence suffered the most from the administration at RCSI. Every time that I tried to go through official routes to schedule essential educational activities such as licensing exams, residency interviews, etc. (required to achieve my goal of returning to North America for residency training), I was met with either outright resistance and antagonism or the arrangements that I had made with the RCSI administration would somehow fall through so that I would be the one that was inconvenienced in the end.

What is most disturbing to me is that this approach taken by the RCSI administration only serves to foster a professional attitude in its students in which they believe that it is acceptable to do whatever it takes to reach goals, including neglecting commitments and even lying. In retrospect, I don't see any logic in the decisions that were made by the RCSI administration which served to antagonize students' endeavours; nor do I see how these decisions where made to benefit the students (by serving to enhance their educational experience and professional preparation). Most of the time, I got the feeling that I was antagonized and even threatened by certain RCSI administrators in some pathetic attempt at a powertrip. However, I never really did feel intimidated, only, at the time, very frustrated, and now, very resentful.

I can only speak of my experiences as a student at RCSI, this is in no way indicative of what students at other Irish medical schools are feeling. To find out, you would have to ask them.
 
Mike MacKinnon said:
leorl


wow.

I dont even know what to say. None of that really sounds positive.
Click to expand...

I know that all this sounds very dire, but I just want to assure you that it isn't. The things I said are usually the extremes of what I've noticed, but in general, most admins at my university will make allowances and will be understanding. It's just the personality of a few nitpickers that can make it frustrating.

There are going to be clashes, and that has to do with them not catering to a US system, which they shouldn't. For example, I got flack for missing my presentation but on the other hand, what are the admins supposed to do? Say "Please, take a couple months off your rotations to study for the USMLE, go ahead and ignore our schedule?" So I understand sometimes their attitude because once they set a precedent for letting people set their own schedules, then they'd run into trouble with all students going off to do their own things or slacking. However for you, you're paying good money to be here and trying to get back home is a priority so in your eyes, not attending all your scheduled rotation time and taking days off for the exam are more important than what they've said. So then you do what you have to and most politely, ignore them...or not say anything. I'm sure they know this exists and they try to enforce it, but at the end of the day, they're too busy and under-staffed to really be able to do anything about it.
 
leorl said:
There are going to be clashes, and that has to do with them not catering to a US system, which they shouldn't. For example, I got flack for missing my presentation but on the other hand, what are the admins supposed to do? Say "Please, take a couple months off your rotations to study for the USMLE, go ahead and ignore our schedule?" So I understand sometimes their attitude because once they set a precedent for letting people set their own schedules, then they'd run into trouble with all students going off to do their own things or slacking. However for you, you're paying good money to be here and trying to get back home is a priority so in your eyes, not attending all your scheduled rotation time and taking days off for the exam are more important than what they've said. So then you do what you have to and most politely, ignore them...or not say anything. I'm sure they know this exists and they try to enforce it, but at the end of the day, they're too busy and under-staffed to really be able to do anything about it.
Click to expand...

I disagree. The problem is that when you apply, at least with RCSI, you are told that the medical school caters to the needs of North American students; they say that the curriculum is structured so as to prepare you for the USMLEs and to provide you with adequate time for your electives. They take pride in showing off a list of their previous graduates that went to North America for residency training. However, as a medical student, you are met with resistence every step of the way. This approach makes no sense at all.
 
That would be a problem specific to RCSI then, and if it is a case of false advertising, then it needs to be addressed. But in general, people should know that the point of the Irish schools (or any of the foreign schools barr the Caribbean ones) isn't to cater to Americans, but to their own native populations. However, if they know this to be the case, they should not be marketing themselves as an "American university," if this is indeed what they are doing. Perhaps this year's applicants who have the most up-to-date brochures, communications, interviews and objectivity regarding RCSI can comment?
 
hi porkchop,

I'm not going to get into all the stuff about administration and Americans being screwed over because I don't know enough about it. Let's just say that, Irish or American, the Irish medical schools could treat their students better. Even though Trinity's medical school it has to be said has a formal dinner for all theirs first years, which I think is pretty cool.

I'd suggest UCD over RCSI (keep in mind I might be biased as I'm a UCD alumni!) because it is more diverse and I'd believe you'd have more fun studying there. It isn't just a medical school; it's the largest university in Ireland and thus has the most to offer outside of medicine.
 
well

to tell the truth i could care less about the politics. I can deal with that IF i get in. Truth be told, Ireland is my only option without having to wait another 2 years. If i do not get in then i will have to continue down the typical US track and the earliest i would be able to apply will be 2008.

With the new rules and decreased slots proposed for Ireland, it looks like next year will be twice as competitive making it harder to get into than the US schools. The whole thing is a little disheartening. I am not looking for an easy way out, i really do want to goto Ireland as opposed to stay in the US and study. Seems less likely if i am not successful this year.
 
Mike,

Cost of RCSI next year = E40,000 = $50,000. Cost will increase 7% per year -- bringing JUST your tuition up to around $300,000 by the time you graduate.

Add to this the astronomical cost of living in Dublin (let's estimate CONSERVATIVELY at $20k/year) and you're looking at $400k all in.

So: 3 points of advice from a current RCSI student buried in debt:

1. Do not come to RCSI if you get in to UCD. UCD is cheaper and you get just as good an education.

2. DO NOT step abroad if you even THINK you have the option of getting in to a US medschool in 2008. U.S. medschools are cheaper than the ones abroad, because the ones abroad prey on the desperate American student who didn't get in. I.e., you're so gagging to start on your degree you're willing to pay whatever they ask. Flipping HARVARD doesn't charge $50k/year, and they'd be one of the most expensive and have facilities RCSI couldn't HOPE to have.

It will still work out cheaper to work/buff up your resume for 2 years before reapplying. Seems like a waste of time, yes -- but you'll be SAVING MONEY!

3. Email me here with whatever inside scoop you want on RCSI -- that goes for all of you with questions regarding Irish medical schools. I'd love to share my experience. Americans tend to have this very mystic leprechaunish idea about medschool in Ireland -- sure, it's Ireland, but it's also only 4M people total, and only about 1M in Ireland.

So it's essentially like agonizing over what medical school to attend in Minneapolis, MN. If RCSI and UCD and Trinity were all in MN, would you be going so nuts? Keep some perspective.

Also, and this is my own personal grind, The Atlantic Bridge Program tries to funnel as many students as they can to RCSI and they're not a good source of information. As soon as you interview for RCSI (where, no doubt, they'll ask you how you plan on paying for medical school -- that seems to be their major concern), you'll get an acceptance letter in early March requiring you to send them a E6,000+ deposit as soon as possible because "spaces are filling up fast!"

BS. They know you're worried about getting in, and US schools don't send out acceptances until May 1st -- so they send out their acceptances in March hoping to increase their take of rich North Americans.

Please. I know you're anxious. But be patient. And even if you DO send them the deposit -- if you get in to an American school in May don't feel bad about flushing the E6,000 down the toilet and accepting the other offer. Review my numbers above. You or your parents will be spending almost half a million dollars getting you through RCSI -- and all you'll be doing is buying your degree.

There's not a student in Ireland who'd agree that the facilities/education at RCSI are worth this amount of money.
 
err -- I meant "1M just in DUBLIN" not in Ireland.

*ahem* 12:30am here. OB/GYN exam coming up. *ahem* I apologize.

;)
 
Oh, and btw -- that "crackpot" that disses on RCSI in that other thread -- he's a little rough around the edges, maybe -- but he's got his facts straight.

There's no way on God's green earth that RCSI is worth what you'll pay for it. As of today, I'm PERSONALLY over $240,000 in debt. Wheeee!
 
Jammer said:
What is most disturbing to me is that this approach taken by the RCSI administration only serves to foster a professional attitude in its students in which they believe that it is acceptable to do whatever it takes to reach goals, including neglecting commitments and even lying.
Click to expand...

Christ, Jammer -- the flipping Vice Dean of the Medical School routinely represents RCSI as LCME-accredited on elective application forms -- check out http://www.lcme.org/directry.htm -- do you see RCSI's name? Neither do I.

So if SHE has no problem with blatant lies, why should I? Please, RCSI is like drugs. Unless you cut off the demand, you'll never control the supply. The more stressed out, worried Americans who're willing to pay ridiculous amounts of money to get "rubber stamped," the more unapologetic RCSI can be about their "students-rights" abuses (and they are legion).

"Ms. A. Lincoln, we're not keeping you here. If you're so worried about tuition costs at RCSI, you're free to leave any time.."
 
wow

Another negative insight.

In anycase, i appreciate all insights. This certainly helps me make a decisions. I will email you and get more info.
 
$20K/year is a conservative estimate?
 
Arb said:
$20K/year is a conservative estimate?
Click to expand...

1BR Apt in Dublin = E1000/mo = $1,200/mo = $14,400/year.

Utilities (gas, electric, cable tv) = E100/mo = $120/mo = $1,440/year

Groceries = E100/mo = $120/mo = $1440/year

So with a roof, power/gas and food you're sitting at around $16,000 -- add to that transportation (e.g., to and from home, to and from hospital rotations, to and from sports grounds), books, equipment, the occasional movie and a pint.

Yeah, you're WELL over $20,000/year in living expenses. There's not a North American student in the bunch (and I know all of them) who's managed to keep it under that..

To manage the whole spiel, you'll need at least USD$60,000/year in loans. Minimum.
 
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