U.S. M.D. practice in Europe???

[DrSambo]

Hello,

I am a U.S. M.D. and have finished my residency training in family medicine.

I am interested in practicing abroad. Particularly, I am interested in practicing in Europe.

I'm not too particular on where in Europe. I'd just like to see some of the rest of the world (I've seen enough of the U.S. already).

I haven't been able to find much on the internet.

Can anyone offer any advice?

Thanks,

Sam

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[leorl]

I think you'd need to look up a particular country of interest and find out their requirements. US MD status doesn't transfer too easily for European/UK certification, and you may have to take tests (PLAB for UK, like the USMLE for us) and even repeat training/residency. Added to that, the prospects of being a non-EU citizen aren't too great (as in, not too easy to ascend the hierarchical ladder), and there may be issues getting a work visa. I'll try to find some specific links and post them.

 

[DrSambo]

Thanks for the quick reply.

That's pretty much the impression I've gotten from the limited amount of internet info I could find.

I guess what I'm hoping for is that somebody will clue me into some obscure licensing fact like "Hey Yank, if you come to the zippity-doo-dah republic, located just between Germany, Belgium, and France, they love American M.D.'s and will give you a license lickety split."

I'd also be open to the idea of a teaching position if that would make any difference.

I know it's a long shot, but I figure Europe's a big area, with quite a few different governments, so it's worth a post to see if anybody has any great insight.

For what it's worth, I personally think all this professional protectionism amongst modern countries is pretty damn ridiculous. I can certainly understand a country putting restrictions on folks from bogus locations/schools, but come on, somebody with a British medical degree should be able to practice in the U.S. with relative ease, and vice versa. I had a guy in my residency who had reached the consultant level in Britain before his wife wanted to move to America. He had to start over as an intern here. Absolutely ridiculous!

 

[Miklos]

Thanks for the quick reply.

That's pretty much the impression I've gotten from the limited amount of internet info I could find.

I guess what I'm hoping for is that somebody will clue me into some obscure licensing fact like "Hey Yank, if you come to the zippity-doo-dah republic, located just between Germany, Belgium, and France, they love American M.D.'s and will give you a license lickety split."

I'd also be open to the idea of a teaching position if that would make any difference.

I know it's a long shot, but I figure Europe's a big area, with quite a few different governments, so it's worth a post to see if anybody has any great insight.

For what it's worth, I personally think all this professional protectionism amongst modern countries is pretty damn ridiculous. I can certainly understand a country putting restrictions on folks from bogus locations/schools, but come on, somebody with a British medical degree should be able to practice in the U.S. with relative ease, and vice versa. I had a guy in my residency who had reached the consultant level in Britain before his wife wanted to move to America. He had to start over as an intern here. Absolutely ridiculous!

Leorl's post is on target.

Protectionism in this area is alive and well on both sides of the Atlantic.

Another problem outside of professional recognition, citizenship and possible work permit issues is language. How do you plan on communicating with patients who do not speak English, never mind medical students, nurses, staff, etc..?

 

[BellKicker]

Another problem outside of professional recognition, citizenship and possible work permit issues is language.

Yes.

I would go as far as to say that language is a bigger obstacle than licensing and immigration laws combined.

Still, there are tons of IMGs here in Scandinavia and some of them aren't exactly fluent in Danish (or Norwegian or Swedish). To be honest though, coming to Europe or the US for just a few years of "seeing the world" is just not a realistic option anymore. Why not join a humanitarian organization? A class mate of mine just spent 6 months in Ghana and loved it. A family practitioner I met worked 6 months on a cruise ship. I have met several docs and nurses who have been to Afghanistan, Kosova, Iraq etc. And I've met tons of docs who spent 12 months in Greenland.

All those options sound so mych more interesting than stuffy old Euroe. One might ask why you would seek out a place that resembles America so much?

Just a few thoughts from a guy who would love to do all those things but probably never will...........

 

[DrSambo]

Yes.

I would go as far as to say that language is a bigger obstacle than licensing and immigration laws combined.

Still, there are tons of IMGs here in Scandinavia and some of them aren't exactly fluent in Danish (or Norwegian or Swedish). To be honest though, coming to Europe or the US for just a few years of "seeing the world" is just not a realistic option anymore. Why not join a humanitarian organization? A class mate of mine just spent 6 months in Ghana and loved it. A family practitioner I met worked 6 months on a cruise ship. I have met several docs and nurses who have been to Afghanistan, Kosova, Iraq etc. And I've met tons of docs who spent 12 months in Greenland.

All those options sound so mych more interesting than stuffy old Euroe. One might ask why you would seek out a place that resembles America so much?

Just a few thoughts from a guy who would love to do all those things but probably never will...........

I would certainly consider such options except for one small problem. Between the two of us, my wife and I have about 250 thousand bucks in student loan debt. Humanitarian orgs, etc. don't pay squat. In fact, many that I've looked into expect the MD to pay them for the priviledge of doing the work.

Maybe in 10 or 20 years that might be an option for me, but right now it ain't. I know that money-wise, I can certainly pull down bigger bucks here in the states, but right now, we have no kids, and other than our student loan debt we don't really have anything tying us down. Therefore, now is a good time to go see the world, even it is for a bit less pay.

That said, I still need to have some pay, and certainly can't afford to pay money I don't have to some humanitarian org etc.

As far as stuffy old Europe goes, it's certainly not the only place I'd like to practice, just one of many actually.

 

[leorl]

I wish WHO or whoever could devise one universal test with a theory/written component and a clinical component for different levels (one for consultants/specialists, one for people just finishing residency in a specific area, one for after internship or something) so that this wouldn't be a problem. Everyone knows that there's no real difference in standard among developed countries (well, western developed countries) and all that really differs is exposure and availability of technological resources. (not getting into different systems of med here). Everyone learns the same thing.

 

[BellKicker]

I would certainly consider such options except for one small problem. Between the two of us, my wife and I have about 250 thousand bucks in student loan debt. Humanitarian orgs, etc. don't pay squat. In fact, many that I've looked into expect the MD to pay them for the priviledge of doing the work.

Ok, that's a good point. Still, from the people I have talked to the Iraq/Afghanistan route paid really well. The Greenland route (let's call it Northern Alaska for you) should pay decently, too. Cruise ships should pay well, too.

So that only leaves out humanitarian work.

If you do decide on Europe, I think it would be wise to focus on one country. If you should decide on Denmark (although I can't imagine why.... ) I could point you in the direction of some websites. Likewise, there are citizens from various EU countries who might be able to do the same.

 

[DrSambo]

Ok, that's a good point. Still, from the people I have talked to the Iraq/Afghanistan route paid really well. The Greenland route (let's call it Northern Alaska for you) should pay decently, too. Cruise ships should pay well, too.

So that only leaves out humanitarian work.

If you do decide on Europe, I think it would be wise to focus on one country. If you should decide on Denmark (although I can't imagine why.... ) I could point you in the direction of some websites. Likewise, there are citizens from various EU countries who might be able to do the same.

Can you tell me more specifics about the Iraq/Afghanistan and Greenland routes. I've been unable to find much on the net about working in these places.

Also, yes, I would certainly be interested in Denmark. Which websites should I explore?

Thanks,

Sam

 

[miscalculated]

hello sam,

you're not seriously considering working in Iraq?? Have the stories about Westerners getting beheaded not put you off? A stronger nerve than I, have you!

Or, is this just the much read about ignorance of Americans?

As far as the Afghani route is concerned, I have a good friend from the capital of that country and the very reason that he's in London and not in Afghanistan speaks volumes.

 

[BellKicker]

Sam, I don't know how they swung Afghanistan or Iraq. All I know is that they were civilians, so I figured they worked for UNICEF of something like that.

For Denmark, go to

www.sst.dk

Then click English in the lower left corner.

Click on "education" and on "foreign trained doctors" and take it from there.

 

[DrSambo]

hello sam,

you're not seriously considering working in Iraq?? Have the stories about Westerners getting beheaded not put you off? A stronger nerve than I, have you!

Or, is this just the much read about ignorance of Americans?

As far as the Afghani route is concerned, I have a good friend from the capital of that country and the very reason that he's in London and not in Afghanistan speaks volumes.

Of course I've seen the news stories etc...and of course it puts me off a bit, but like most MD's I do try to look at things objectively rather than purely based on my emotional response to news items.

Objectively, the daily number of Americans and other westerners killed in Iraq is not too different than the daily number killed right here in the U.S., even when adjusted for population.

I live in a small city and every night I watch the national and local news. On just about any given night, I can expect to see a story on the national news about how a couple soldiers have been killed that day in Iraq. Then on the local news I can expect to see a story about how a couple people have been killed in my town.

Overall, objectively, I think my chances of getting killed are just as good anywhere in the world as they are in Iraq.

As an example, yesterday, an elderly neighbor lost control of his car and crashed it through the wall of my house. His Buick ended up in our living room, and narowly missed killing my wife who was in the room at the time. If she had been hurt of killed, I would have been devestated.

I don't think such devastation would have been any worse had her death occured in Baghdad, Iraq instead of Jackson, Mississippi.

So, if the money is right, yes, I would definately consider practice in Iraq or Afghanistan.

As far as the "much read about ignorance of Americans," I can only say, don't believe everything you read.

Sam

 

[miscalculated]

sam,

is your wife ok? And the neighbour?

I admire your guts. But I still would not go to Iraq as a civilian doctor. I would only feel comfortable there as an army medic with a Browning in my pocket!

Are you absolutely serious though that you want to go to Iraq? A dear friend of mine is currently serving in Basra and when he emails, he always tells of constant mortar fire.
Nah, all those beheadings send shivers down my spine. Such a gross way to die. And your wife can't be happy with your bold ideas to go to such dangerous places, can she?

But hell, if we all lived in fear, nothing in this world would get done.

Regarding Afghanistan, I might go there in 2006 for 2 months on my med school elective. My friend is also a med student whose brother is a surgeon in Kabul. His brother tells him the situation is actually much calmer now. If you're genuinely interested, I can ask him about foreigners working there, etc.

 

[DrSambo]

Everybody is okay. The front of the house, and his car are pretty messed up. Fortunately a few scratches on my wife's elbow and ankle were the only human injuries!! Thank God!

Anyway, I'm not specifically wanting to go to Iraq, or any other place in particular. I just want to get out of Jackson, MS and see the world a bit, practice elsewhere in differenct cultures, expand horizons...all that sort of nonsense you know.

I certainly understand where you are coming from regarding danger in Iraq and all, but really, if you look at the statistics, the most dangerous place to be in the whole world is in a car on an American highway.

America has had about 1000 casualties in Iraq in over a year. In that same period of time, we've probably killed 30 or 40 thousand folks on our highways. I'd even be willing to bet we've had more decapitations on the highways than in Iraq.

I certainly do not hesitate to drive on the highways however. I wear my seatbelt, have a car with airbags, and drive as defensively as I can.

If I did end up in Iraq (again...not too likely) I would take whatever precautions I could there as well. Flak jacket, pistol, etc...as the situation warranted.

As far as my wife, she is probably more interested in fulfilling her wanderlust more than I am. Her folks were missionaries, so she spent her first 18 years in Indonesia and Malaysia.

 

[merlin]

what about any info for practicing in Europe (UK, France, Germany, Switzerland) saying there are no complications with language. are there many US doctors in Europe or is it just too complicated and if anyone knows someone practicing from the US, do you know how long it took them to get all requirements worked through? hope this post makes sense.

 

[miscalculated]

i'll admit to being quite well-informed in German affairs (i'm in the country right now). check out www.bundesaerztekammer.de (only in German) for information regarding all things relating to practising med in Germany. I don't know what the equivalent in the US is but in the UK it's the General Medical Council.

Generally, Germany has enough doctors in the West but in the former Communist East there is a shortage. It's the universal case where they're crying out for doctors to slave away in far-flung rural corners but there are also positions in decent hospitals.

 

[Domitian]

He who can search the internet rules the world. (That would be me.)

Health Practicioner, US State Dept.

Basically, it seems you are the primary care doc for embassy/consular staff and their dependents. I'm not sure if you can choose where you go, even what continent. But you'd probably go somewhere cool. The money isn't great, but the benefits are pretty good (free housing).

 

[DrSambo]

He who can search the internet rules the world. (That would be me.)

Health Practicioner, US State Dept.

Basically, it seems you are the primary care doc for embassy/consular staff and their dependents. I'm not sure if you can choose where you go, even what continent. But you'd probably go somewhere cool. The money isn't great, but the benefits are pretty good (free housing).

Actually, I've already looked into the department of state bit.

The link you provide is for employment of nurse practitioners and physician assistants.

They also employ physicians as Regional Medical Officers. I would love to pursue this, but one of the requirements is 5 years of post-residency practice experience.

 

[leorl]

sam, my view would be pretty one-sided... but losing someone (or yourself) to an accident isn't the same as losing your life (or a loved one's life) because you were captured by terrorists and beheaded. Or shot by an American-hating militant. Medics are meant to be outside harm and "safe," but can't count on that happening in dirty "war."

 

[DrSambo]

sam, my view would be pretty one-sided... but losing someone (or yourself) to an accident isn't the same as losing your life (or a loved one's life) because you were captured by terrorists and beheaded. Or shot by an American-hating militant. Medics are meant to be outside harm and "safe," but can't count on that happening in dirty "war."

What about being shot by a caucasian-hating african american in Jackson, Mississippi? I've actually had a pistol pointed at my head by one (a police officer no less) a couple years ago. Long story, so I won't go into it, but I must say, I think his bullet would've hurt just as much as anybody else's.

 

[leorl]

okay, that would maybe be the same... but in the situations you cited above, those were accident-related (car crashes, etc). I can't say getting a gun pointed at you by a caucasian-hating african-american is a common occurrence, and without meaning to trivialize your experience or generalize, you weren't specifically or willingly going to a country known for danger. It was a freak occurence in your own country, in a place familiar to you. Going to places like Iraq at this time is like knowing not to go into Chicago/LA downtown by yourself at night but doing so anyway, only on a much larger scale - you're a walking target.

Anyway, your choices are your own. At the end of the day, do you want to practice medicine, or do you want an adventure, or do you want a super hair-raising insomniacal adventure?

 

[pushkin]

I don't think it's really such a freak occurance to have a gun pointed at you in the states. It has happened to me too. Compared to a lot of other countries, the US has a high rate of gun violence, which makes it dangerous place in its own way. I'm not saying it's a war zone, but it's not exactly safe either.

 

[leorl]

I've had a gun pointed at me too, i'm not sure why. Fortunately, we were in a car and floored it. I can't say it was because of caucasian-hating reasons, but probably just an attempted robbery or something. I don't know anything about guns, but they weren't measly pistols. They were GUNS.

 

[tlew12778]

You should research working for an international health center. They specialise in care for foreigners in European countries IN ENGLISH. I live in Milan, Italy and know of at least 3 off-hand. Most of the drs are brits although one is run by an American (http://www.iht.it/aimc/). I used to go to that one and he charged something like 110 euro per visit (plus additional charges for labwork, etc). And there's no such things as co-pays here so he didn't have to deal with insurance payments or anything. There is another clinic (http://www.ihc.it/) that is run by brits and pretty much charges the same fees.

 

[leorl]

And there are people who will pay 110 for a visit? Is that not a bit steep (understatement)? Who makes up the clientele, is it rich foreigners/expats/tourists, or a lot of the general population as well?

 

[merlin]

these have all been great suggestions from my point of view. keep em' coming...