Transfer to an MD Program

[lama]

I know it's crossed the mind of most of you out there, atleast those honest enough to admit it. Is it possible to transfer into an MD program after a year or two of DO school? Under what circumstances would this happen? Does anyone know of someone that made the switch and was glad they made the change? Or vice-versa?

I now this is controversial topic, so don't hate. Just answer the question. More than half of you out there would take an MD today if you could. Only a minority really believe that DO is a better career path.

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[Plinko]

Are you a DO student? I would really be surprised if that were the case. In this forum you are really playing with fire with some of your statements. Putting aside some of your misinformation about most DOs wishing they could be MDs, I'll bite and put in my two cents in the event that you are a legitmately disgruntled DO student looking to go MD. Most MD programs that take DO transfers do so pretty much only after the second year once board scores are in. There are a number of MD schools that take DO transfers but to actually attain acceptance is difficult. But that is the case with an MD to MD transfer as well. With the DO degree representing more respect, prestige, and wider acknowledgement with every passing year it is becoming easier than ever for DOs to transfer wherever they prefer. Each MD school has its own criteria for transfer--personal reasons like a spouse living out of state, or simply a student preferring another school's curriculum, etc.-- so it is impossible to generalize. The only example I personally know of is a student at my school, TCOM, who just gained acceptance into the third year class at LSU-New Orleans. His reasons were pretty solid: he is a DO/Phd student whose thesis advisor was moving to LSU so he wanted to finish his doctorate with the mentor he started it with.

 

[Sam Adams]

Dear "lama,"

I believe the answer to your question is inherent in your capability. Yes, success or failure is directly linked to one?s accountability, dedication, and skill. That is, all accredited US medical schools have gone through rigorous coursing of adequately supplying basic, exemplary, and extraneous medical information to all attendees. Given that allopathic and osteopathic ideologies do differ a tad, both attain the same licensure, level of standardized training, and continue medical education past residency with re-certification examination boards. For where these philosophies bifurcate, the object clearly rests with attaining betterment of the human condition, all of which is paramount and subsequently proven. Thus, questioning the competency and rigor Osteopathic medicine has already been addressed by governmental, international, and US medical regulatory boards far past an annum, centennial [please confer with both the AMA and AOA websites for future consultation, either personal or professional].

Inherent in that posting, it seems as if you're questioning the competency, effort, quality and tradition of thousands of successful practicing Osteopathic physicians today. However, you must ask yourself... as to what type of physician that you intend to become if given the opportunity [if successful study past your basic sciences]. Idealistically, one is led to believe that the overall efficacy and quality of treatment is what matters most in this profession. Physicians do treat patients with compassion, reserve, and skill [for the record]. At the end of the day, I'm quite sure that differing consonants of a medical degree DO NOT take precedence over the status of each patient. Perhaps, it is the individual that upholds the integrity, pride, and tradition of a profession and not necessarily is it the white coat doing so [now, I?m questioning your motive and definition of prestige as I humbly lay down my ivy-league Cantabrigian persona at your instep - de humani corporis fabrica, coninuetur remedia].


It is truly a miracle and privilege to have the opportunity to attend medical school. If you are a medical student, then your thoughts should rest solely with assessing and improving your own skill level to benefit the public as a whole?albeit the techniques at hand. Most of us learn as much as we can and do not preoccupy ourselves with such minutia. At the end of a 12-hour day, be fortunate that you have been chosen to walk an honorable, rigorous, and traditional path regardless of how much work is still left at hand. Many others and I offer you these shoes to walk in? perhaps then you may understand the essence of medicine that we all must adhere to given both the Hippocratic and Osteopathic Oaths.

I can only humbly admire, respect, and show sincere gratitude toward all student and practicing physicians both in situ and transit. The best way to address your concern is to become more informed and well versed in your dialogue. For matters seemingly which are futile, I respond with compassion for my profession, but careful not to discredit those more accomplished and worthy than I am. Perhaps a evaluating your opinions on a global scale will benefit those around and enhance your compassion for the medical profession [please forgive typographical errors ? I?m a bit tired from comprehensive exams earlier today].

For more information regarding osteopathic medicine in general, please send me a private message. I have access to residency placements, exam scores w/national averages, and physicians that you can address concerns with via e-mail.

NYCOM '2006
Harvard University '2000

 

[lindajane]

BRAVO!!!!!

That was incredibly well-said. Thank you, Sam Adams, for speaking so eloquently for what I believe is the majority of medical students and physicians, both osteopathic and allopathic.

I couldn't agree more.

In fact, I think the forum moderators should save your posting and post it again anytime this ridiculous and naieve debate surfaces in the future...

 

[BamaAlum]

I think that it is highly arrogant and presumptuous to assume we know why the original poster is interested in transfering to a MD school(excluding the misinformed remark about most DO students wishing they were MD students). I will admit that there have been times that I have considered it myself. It is not because I feel that my training has been inferior or that by obtaining a D.O. degree I am at some sort of disadvantage. I feel that my training thus far is on par with any school in the country, DO or MD, and my classmates are down right awesome. However, a myriad of factors can go into someone wanting to transfer to an M.D. school. Location of family, costs, wanting to train in a particular region, etc. I have thought about it b/c I want to practice pathology in the South, a region not exactly overflowing with DO's , especially pathologists. It would be cheaper, I would be closer to friends and family and I wouldn't have to explain to everyone down here where I go to school. Would I be a better physician by transferring? Probably not. Would I have more residency choices? Maybe, but not very much.

Although, I am 99.9% sure I will not seek a transfer, since I love my current school, I realize that many people aren't happy with the current situation they find themselves in. Why shouldn't they seek out a program that better suits their needs? Ultimately, the whole DO vs. MD crap doesn't matter. All that matters in the end is how hard you work and how good a physician you decide to be. If you feel that you can be a better physician by tranferring, by all means do so.

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

Here is some great advice for someone who would like to transfer from a DO school to an MD school:

Maybe you should ask the moderator to move this thread over to the allopathic board so that you can get started on your journey.

See, we don't have information on transerferring out since we are still HERE. I don't think I'll ever be able to help you since I'm not part of that sect that feels,

"More than half of you out there would take an MD today if you could. Only a minority really believe that DO is a better career path."

I think the OP knew that there would be some flames on the subject....

 

[daveyboy]

Pretty much only premeds display that attitude. Besides, you'll always have some tool trying to play the "I'm superior" card, no matter where you go to school. Blow it of and do your own thing.

 

[oceandocDO]

See that's what I'm talking about. That's my ony drawback about wanting to attend a DO school. People will have attitudes like this even though we all know it's ignorant.

Whatever dude, if you're gonna let some clown like this decide your professional future, you obviously cant make a decision for yourself anyway. Seriously, how can you let your opinions on a profession of 50,000 physicians be influenced by a bunch of pre-meds on a message board? Please. Get a grip. Here's the truth: You will NEVER be happy as a D.O., people will look at you and laugh, wonder what you got on your S.A.T.'s, wonder if you were deprived of oxygen as a baby, wonder if your mom smoked while prego, and will ask themselves why anyone would go through so much damn work, if not more, and not have the beloved "MD" after their name. My advice, go get some sunscreen, and make your way to the caribbean. You'll be happy, as will we. Sorry to be so harsh, but your posts on here have all centered around this central theme and unfortunately, we can get the friggin head of orthopedic surgery at Dartmouth on here himself, who's a D.O., and you'd still think he doesnt get as much respect as the MDs below him.

To the original poster, bad choice of words. To think you wasted your virginal post with that. I smell a troll. What Caribbean school do you go to?]

 

[MOZ D.O.]

i know one person who transferred from nova after first year to tulane for family reasons. so i guess it is possible. the op comment on most d.o. students wanting to transfer to md schools is misinformed and ridiculous. those who are usually unhappy with being a d.o. tend to be really insecure to begin with and thus are always worried about what people think of them and what not. i'm happy with being a d.o. and so are the majority of my classmates. so to assert that all d.o. students are just wannabe md's seems totally off base.

MOZ D.O.

 

[oceandocDO]

Slick..

I'm sorry about harassing you, it's not malicious, just a reflex to premeds commenting about things they really have no clue about. Yes, some people are rather ignorant, but you'll find that over anything. Go to the allo board and watch the Ivy schools bash the state schools, or watch nurse practicioners bash nurses. Everyone gets off on feeling like they're better than someone else. Whatever. Do what YOU want to do and want to love, not what someone else wants you to love. Nuff said.

 

[lama]

To let you all know. I am an undergrad, not a DO student. (I live in San Diego, no DO school). I am fairly naive about what a DO is. I appreciate those who took the time to answer my question: Sam, Bama, Moz, etc. For the past couple of weeks, I have been reading as much as I can about your profession because here in SD, I haven't found very many resources. I think there are two DO schools in our state but still, not a lot of people know about osteopathy. The reason I asked the question is because I have a brother at Stanford doing his residency. He has told me that DO's are great doctors. Unfortunately, at Stanford there are no DO's in his surgical residency, nor has there ever been as far as he knows. I would love to go to Stanford as a resident someday but I don't have quite the resume that my brother does. I will be lucky to study medicine at either a MD or DO program. I simply would like to have the experience he is having and live here in San Diego without having to explain my medical degree everyday. I mean no disrespect to your profession. I am just going off what I've been told. Besides, didn't California let DO's trade in their degrees for MD's few decades back? You all seem very insulted that I said DO's would trade their degree's. So if Osteopathy is so wonderful and prestigous and well-respected why did so many DO's make the trade in California?

More than that, I wanted to see how I would be treated for asking such an honest question. Those of you who were upset and insulted me don't reflect well as ambassadors to your profession. Why would I want to go to a DO school, when some people treat others who are less informed, in the manner you have treated me? You do nothing to promote yourselves as compassionate, caring professionals.

 

[skypilot]

Check out the California matches for Western COMP in Pomona CA.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67808&highlight=comp+match+list

 

[kristenE]

I wanted to see how I would be treated for asking such an honest question. Those of you who were upset and insulted me don't reflect well as ambassadors to your profession. Why would I want to go to a DO school, when some people treat others who are less informed, in the manner you have treated me? You do nothing to promote yourselves as compassionate, caring professionals.

Nice way to try and CYA when you start out with:

More than half of you out there would take an MD today if you could. Only a minority really believe that DO is a better career path.

You know, they teach us to read BEFORE we get accepted into our inferior DO schools!!!! Don't patronize us under the guise of curiosity ........

 

[lama]

KristenE- predictable response.

skypilot- thanks for the HELP. Interesting stats.

To all- My question remains unanswered.

Besides, didn't California let DO's trade in their degrees for MD's few decades back? You all seem very insulted that I said DO's would trade their degree's. So if Osteopathy is so wonderful and prestigous and well-respected why did so many DO's make the trade in California?

Maybe somebody from CA could answer my question since they have some background in what I'm asking.

 

[skypilot]

I think there was a lot of pressure put on the DOs to convert.

Since that time osteopathy and allopathy have converged and osteopathic medicine has burgeoned. The last state to fully recognize DOs did so in the 70s I believe.

 

[stanMD]

lama,

From prior experience, I have never met a DO in the Stanford OR. And it's true that not very many DO residents or students come through Stanford. But allow me to digress. First, I think Sam Adams posted a wonderful response to your question, read it again. What is he trying to say? Second, Learn more about osteopathy. You may prefer it over an allopathic degree. My best friend is going to an osteopathic school next year and I couldn't be happier for him. Third, DO's and MD's are equal.

Although your brother is here and Stanford has a wonderful reputation, its the basically same training you would get at any other MD/DO hospital. Don't be intimidated by the big name. If your heart is set on Stanford and you end up going to DO school, then be a pioneer for osteopathy. Be an exellent DO student, come to Stanford for a surgical residency, and pave the way for other DO students here in CA to follow after you. It's all in how YOU look at it.

Regarding the DO license thing, I didn't even know it happened. Hopefully someone else will answer you. Take care. PM me if you need any other help.

 

[tkim]

http://www.chelationtherapyonline.com/anatomy/p114.htm

http://www.ucihs.uci.edu/com/index.html?top.html&menu.html&com02.htm

"The D.O.s" by Gevitz, is a great book to learn about the history of osteopathy.

- Tae

 

[doctorperez]

Originally posted by oceandocDO
unfortunately, we can get the friggin head of orthopedic surgery at Dartmouth on here himself, who's a D.O., and you'd still think he doesnt get as much respect as the MDs below him.

The head of trauma surgery at Jackson memorial hospital the second largest teaching hospital is a D.O. too, go confirm it if you need to.

 

[Rev. Horace]

Originally posted by lama
I now this is controversial topic, so don't hate. Just answer the question. More than half of you out there would take an MD today if you could. Only a minority really believe that DO is a better career path.

You started out all well and nice and then you say this. How would you react if you went to school X (and you are rather proud of school X) and I said that the majority of people, if not all, that go to school X ( a school I know nothing about) would go to school Y if they could and that a degree from school X is crap??

You said it yourself that you're ignorant (uninformed) towards osteopathy, but you make this blanket statement having little to no prior knowledge about osteopathy. How many osteopathic students/doctors did you poll that said they would change their degree to allopathic in a heart beat??

Don't post this and act insulted that you recieved a few flames. You knew what to expect. You very well could have posted your honest question sans the inferences that the majority of osteopaths would trade their degree in a heart beat. Also, since you seem to know alot about the cali DO trade-in, how many osteopathic physicians actually did it??

 

[Castro Viejo]

Originally posted by lama
Maybe somebody from CA could answer my question since they have some background in what I'm asking.

Oh for crying out loud, the California merger is a topic that's been done to death on SDN.

As one of the other posters alluded, there was some pressure on California DOs in the 1960s to get an MD. This mainly had to do with their admitting privileges in the state, which at the time were limited only to osteopathic hospitals. Since there were talks over how to merge the MD and DO professions, a "school" was established that granted about 2,000 MDs to interested DOs in the state. The plan was carried through but the result wasn't as rosy as some had hoped, eventually undoing the merger.

There's a little more to this than what I've presented here, but for a more in-depth discussion on the topic you can either search SDN or read The D.O.'s: Osteopathic Medicine in American by Norman Gevitz, PhD, published by Johns Hopkins University Press.

 

[group_theory]

Originally posted by ******
The plan was carried through but the result wasn't as rosy as some had hoped, eventually undoing the merger.

Basically the AMA (and its state affliate CMA) wanted to get rid of osteopaths by assimilation. So they enacted legislation stripping DOs of their privilages, converted the California College of Osteopathic Medicine to UC Irving School of Medicine, and offered the DOs in California MD degrees for a small fee and attendance of a seminar.

Well, the DOs that didn't convert lost their privilages. The DOs-->MDs got screwed. Allopathic hospitals refused to recognize the MD degree so the DOs-->MDs lost all admitting privilages. States outside California did not recognize the MD degree, stating that the degree was an "academic degree" instead of a "professional degree". So the DOs-->MDs were screwed.

Other osteopaths saw what happened in CA and therefore resisted the assimilation attempts. I bet the AMA had a hard time convincing people that a DO-->MD was a good idea, esp after what happened in CA.

Basically the whole plan backfired. DOs pointed to the merger as evidence that the difference between DOs and MDs was nill - a small fee and a seminar. The law was eventually overturned by the CA Supreme Court. And the AMA now recognize osteopathic medicine as a legitimate and equal partner in medicine. However, a recent offer to let the AOA become voting members in the AMA House of Delegates brought back memories of assimilation - and created a rift in the AOA. In the end, the AOA declined the invitation.

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by group_theory
Other osteopaths saw what happened in CA and therefore resisted the assimilation attempts.

However, a recent offer to let the AOA become voting members in the AMA House of Delegates brought back memories of assimilation - and created a rift in the AOA.

So Star Trek fans, the AMA represents the Borg and and osteopaths are like the fearless crew of the Enterprise.

 

[GoForIt]

Unfortunately, at Stanford there are no DO's in his surgical residency, nor has there ever been as far as he knows. I would love to go to Stanford as a resident someday

lama, I hope that you can go to Stanford as a resident someday. I also want to tell you that Thomas Yee, DO who is a COMP graduate, class of 87 is the Clinical Assistant Professor in the department of neurology at Stanford University School of Medicine. The letters after your name does not hold you back in your career. DO and MD are equal.

 

[MOZ D.O.]

well stated group theory! i think one of the reasons the california do's were so inclined to get the md degree had to do with fact at the time they were the only d.o. school west of the miss. river. most felt a little bit isolated from the rest of the osteopathic family and thus were a bit more inclined to accept the fake md degree. in the end the whole fiasco seemed to benefit osteopathy because it made us more united and energized as a profession.


lama, regarding your post of having to explain your degree everyday that is simply not true. no one asks where you went to school and if they do they are not going to be turned off when you when you say you are a d.o. take a look at the number of foreign medical grads practicing in the u.s. and see how successful many of them have become. if they can do it why can't a d.o. do it?

MOZ D.O.

 

[Rev. Horace]

Originally posted by skypilot
So Star Trek fans, the AMA represents the Borg and and osteopaths are like the fearless crew of the Enterprise.

I never thought of it that way.

 

[raspberry swirl]

for what its worth, i applied to both types of medical schools, and I chose DO over MD. I think osteopathy is an amazing approach to healthcare and I think its awful and unfortunate that undergraduate institutions fail to educate their premeds about osteopathy as an option. I do not fault premeds for holding a less informed view. If someone asked me about osteopathy my freshman year in college, i wouldn't have even known it existed. I knew nothing about it until it was mentioned to my by a friend. the more and more i learned about it, the more i realized it was a better path for me than MD. i think its safe to say there will always be people with less understanding of osteopathy and will therefore always hold a lesser opinion of it, but at the same time, as more schools open and the classes at existing schools get larger, and as we branch into more and more areas and more hospitals, the distinctions will melt away. lama and the other premeds, as well as existing DO students, shouldn't worry about the opportunities available to them or having to explain their degree. as time goes on, its going to matter less and less. and as everyone knows, it doesn't matter how you got there, it only matters what you do with it there are plenty of crappy MD programs-- would you rather be there, then in a great DO school, even if it means you have to explain osteopathy to your relatives everytime you get together? I hope that you would choose the better DO school. in fact, if you choose medicine for the right reason, of course you would. there are plenty of sources of information about osteopathy. i encourage you to learn as much as you can before you make your decision, and i wouldn't be surprised if you choose a DO school afterall. but if its not for you, then its not for you. and thats just the bottom line.

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

Originally posted by lama
To let you all know. I am an undergrad, not a DO student. (I live in San Diego, no DO school). I am fairly naive about what a DO is. I appreciate those who took the time to answer my question: Sam, Bama, Moz, etc. For the past couple of weeks, I have been reading as much as I can about your profession because here in SD, I haven't found very many resources. I think there are two DO schools in our state but still, not a lot of people know about osteopathy. The reason I asked the question is because I have a brother at Stanford doing his residency. He has told me that DO's are great doctors. Unfortunately, at Stanford there are no DO's in his surgical residency, nor has there ever been as far as he knows. I would love to go to Stanford as a resident someday but I don't have quite the resume that my brother does. I will be lucky to study medicine at either a MD or DO program. I simply would like to have the experience he is having and live here in San Diego without having to explain my medical degree everyday. I mean no disrespect to your profession. I am just going off what I've been told. Besides, didn't California let DO's trade in their degrees for MD's few decades back? You all seem very insulted that I said DO's would trade their degree's. So if Osteopathy is so wonderful and prestigous and well-respected why did so many DO's make the trade in California?

More than that, I wanted to see how I would be treated for asking such an honest question. Those of you who were upset and insulted me don't reflect well as ambassadors to your profession. Why would I want to go to a DO school, when some people treat others who are less informed, in the manner you have treated me? You do nothing to promote yourselves as compassionate, caring professionals.

I would really appreciate if that was true, but who makes remarks that are so pointed (and insulting) then turns around and says that the replies were unprofessional? I think your expectation is unrealistic. If you posted this exact post as your first in this thread, then you wouldn't have to see this side of anyone.

Imagine having 1 HOUR of sleep in two days, taking exams, checking emails, then deciding to take a little break to go BS on SDN, only to see someone dump all my year's work in the emotional trash can! Yeah, it's upsetting!

About your feelings, I felt the same way. The AOA has many sources that can help you find information.... Just don't tell them that you want to convert them into MDs just yet... You can get very objective information off the internet about the differences between Osteo and Allo just by making a general search.

But more important, check out the places you want a residency in. See what Stanford likes to accept and who they don't. Make your choicebased on that. After all, this is why we are all in the schools we chose (more or less).

And I am proud of people that stook u p for our profession! That's the kind of attitude we need out there to dispell all these comments about DO being inferior to MD.

I'm just sorry you had to get it since you claim not to mean what you said....

 

[lama]

Originally posted by dr_almondjoy_do
I would really appreciate if that was true, but who makes remarks that are so pointed (and insulting) then turns around and says that the replies were unprofessional? I think your expectation is unrealistic. If you posted this exact post as your first in this thread, then you wouldn't have to see this side of anyone.

Imagine having 1 HOUR of sleep in two days, taking exams, checking emails, then deciding to take a little break to go BS on SDN, only to see someone dump all my year's work in the emotional trash can! Yeah, it's upsetting!

almondjoy- First of all, my expectations are not unrealistic. My remarks are only insulting if you allow them to insult you. I didn't mean to insult anyone. I would expect a student, who plans to one day become a physician, to have a little more patience, compassion, and self-esteem. Which brings up another point: I have noticed in this thread and in others, that some of you osteopaths are very defensive and mean when any kind of DO vs MD debate comes up. I don't care if your sick of the discussions. I'm new to the forum and haven't seen the other discussions. 800 other people saw my post and didn't respond either because they had nothing worthwhile to contribute or because they are secure enough with their profession that they don't feel the need to defend it every time a premed asks about DO vs MD questions. It's as if you guys feed the DO inferiority image by acknowledging it and getting so upset by it. Consider that if you will.

Also what kind of resident will you be when you have to be on-call 2 days in a row with 1 hour of sleep, saving lives, paying bills, BSing on SDN and some innocent kid asks you why you don't have an "MD" behind you name like everyone else. Are you going to respond to him, like you did to me? Stress is no excuse.


You all have to understand what its like here in SD. I only have MD's around me to guide me and answer my questions. Whenever I have asked them about osteopathy, they lose eye contact and kind of avoid saying anything bad, but you can tell they think it's inferior even though they say its not. It was one of these MD's that posed the transfer question to me in the first place. I was unsure of the answer and he suggested that a transfer might be better in the long run here in CA. I don't have much DO information, so do you blame me for going to the source? I read your posts, and for the most part, all of you have been supportive and helpful. Some have given me links to web pages which I appreciate very much. I also thought it was cool how a Stanford kid would take his time to answer my questions and encourage me toward osteopathy. I also enjoyed your philosophies and outlooks on medicine. Maybe the problem isn't how I percieve medicine, but rather how I will percieve myself, like Sam said.

 

[dr_almondjoy_do]

Originally posted by lama
almondjoy- First of all, my expectations are not unrealistic. My remarks are only insulting if you allow them to insult you. I didn't mean to insult anyone. I would expect a student, who plans to one day become a physician, to have a little more patience, compassion, and self-esteem. Which brings up another point: I have noticed in this thread and in others, that some of you osteopaths are very defensive and mean when any kind of DO vs MD debate comes up. I don't care if your sick of the discussions. I'm new to the forum and haven't seen the other discussions. 800 other people saw my post and didn't respond either because they had nothing worthwhile to contribute or because they are secure enough with their profession that they don't feel the need to defend it every time a premed asks about DO vs MD questions. It's as if you guys feed the DO inferiority image by acknowledging it and getting so upset by it. Consider that if you will.

Also what kind of resident will you be when you have to be on-call 2 days in a row with 1 hour of sleep, saving lives, paying bills, BSing on SDN and some innocent kid asks you why you don't have an "MD" behind you name like everyone else. Are you going to respond to him, like you did to me? Stress is no excuse.


You all have to understand what its like here in SD. I only have MD's around me to guide me and answer my questions. Whenever I have asked them about osteopathy, they lose eye contact and kind of avoid saying anything bad, but you can tell they think it's inferior even though they say its not. I haven't been able to find much DO information. I read your posts, and for the most part, all of you have been supportive and helpful. Some have given me links to web pages which I appreciate very much. I also thought it was cool how a Stanford kid and would take his time to answer my questions and encourage me toward osteopathy. Now thats someone secure in his profession. I also enjoyed your philosophies and outlooks on medicine. Maybe the problem isn't how I percieve medicine, but rather how I will percieve myself, like Sam said.

Like I stated before, it was the way you came off.. something you can work on in due time... Imagine you on rotation making direct comments about someone's state of being, and imagine how you would look trying to defend that. Be a human being first , and a med student second. Making comments (not asking if, or even stating where you come from with you comment) about how most DO students are MD wanna-bes on a DO board is not cool. Period. If you asked how many DOs are MD wanna-bes, that would be understanding.

I"m not trying to offend you in any way, matter of fact, like I said before, I was in your shoes not too long ago. I did the research like you are now, but I didn't label anyone. This may be your first time posting, but you made a bad first impression. You made an attempt to fix that, and that is all fine and dandy. I will still be able to drag myself to class everyday, whether you meant it or not. You will too one day. Just make a choice based on how you feel. I have to explain my choice almost every day, and it doesn't bother me. I am the only person I know outside of my school going to a DO school. The rest are MD. We can still face eachother and have civil conversation.

But I am wondering why you didn't put up the exact OP in the allopathic board... and how can you talk about transferring out of a DO school when you aren't in any med school yet period? I still think you meant your OP, and that it wasn't the sociology test you want to pass it off as...

And oh, I'm saying this just to see how professionally you respond to it....I have my note pad waiting....

 

[lama]

Almondjoy-
I probably don't have the grades to go to a CA MD school. I have taken practice MCAT's and they are OK. I just want to be realistic. I am exploring all my options. I have seeked the advice of MD's that know my grades aren't stellar. They can't answer my DO questions. I don't know whats "cool" to post and what's not. You don't understand that I don't know a whole lot about osteopathy and the info I do have is probably not entirely correct. I have seen some MD vs DO debates here on SDN. You seem to think that I should have known better. I didn't. My comments were based on what I thought was reality. (DO's did trade their licenses and there are many more MDwannabes in the DO ranks than vice-versa). About sociology, I see how upset some of you guys get and I don't understand it. If you acknowlege the inferiority thing with anger and defensive responses instead of positive educational ones, then you acknowledge the inferiority itself. Isn't that a sound argument?

Anyway, thanks for being nice.

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by lama
I have seeked the advice of MD's that know my grades aren't stellar. They can't answer my DO questions.

I've posted this before, but I thought I'd throw in my $0.02 on Osteopathic medicine:

To understand Osteopathic medicine you have to go back & see why Dr. Still (who was an MD) started osteopathic medicine. Let me give you a bit of overview and perspective, but please don't consider this to be comprehensive & completely explanatory. He was practicing medicine in the 1800s, when medicine had little to offer patients, surgical procedures were traumatic (and had high mortaility rates), and many of the "medications" were toxic (or useless).

From his experiences working with patients, Dr. Still stated that the body is capable of healing itself (not, mumbo-jumbo...keep in mind what medicine consisted of in his day and age) and he began to study the human body in more depth, especially the musculoskeletal system. He also worked to determine why the body succombed to disease. Again, this line of thinking & study was unusual for physicians of the 1800s. In his research, he did find some manipulative techniques that improved some conditions for his patients (the beginning of osteopathic manipulative medicine/techniques...which has been tremendously expanded in the meantime). He also developed the "philosophy" of osteopathic medicine. Again, keeping in mind how radical this was for the time period, he wrote of "treating the whole person, not just the disease," and he stated that "the goal is to find health, anybody can find disease."

Osteopathic medicine has a stated philosophy/principles. You'll find slightly different wording from place-to-place, but here are the key principles:

1. the body is a unit: mind, body, spirit
2. the body is capable of self-regulation, self-healing, and health maintenance
3. structure and function are reciprocally interrelated
4. rational therapy is based upon the understanding of the first 3 principles

Although I know of no "stated philosophy" of allopathic medicine, these concepts are not foreign to MDs.

So basically, in a time when physicians could often do nothing or try things that too often caused the patient more harm, Dr. Still was practicing quite differently.

Now, by today's standards, the difference & the philosophy (in practice) are not tremendously different between MD & DO, but there are some. Obviously, DOs learn OMM (which some use and others do not). Also, there is an emphasis on the principles of osteopathic medicine during the clinical classes. Again, these principles are not something that MDs would disagree with, but in many (not all) allopathic schools they are not going to be regularly emphasized.

 

[Dr. Lector]

I don't think transfering happens often. First of all tranfering from MD program to MD program rarely happens let alone DO to MD. I'm from Calif. and attended NYCOM for one year and was interested in transfering, I did a search and found that Loma Linda does take DO transfers while the other calif. MD schools only take tranfers from other LCME(MD) accredited schools. While Loma Linda does take transfers from DO school I've heard it is vary rare, requires special circumstances, and only happens after second year and USMLE step1. I think you can go to the AAMC website or the LCME website and get a listing of all the schools that take transfers from DO schools. Keep in mind you have alot of offshore people wanting to transfer too. Don't go to DO school if you're unsure about the title, do go to DO if you just want to become a physician and can care less about the letters behind your name.

 

[lama]

FINALLY!!!! THANK YOU Lector!!! This was the simple response I was looking for- Purely informational with a little advice added. The majority of the posts have been extremely helpful for me, I want to tell all of you thank you. I have learned more in the past few days, than in the previous few months.

From what I gather, transfering is very rare and something that one shouldn't bank on. If you are going to go to an Osteopathic School, then you should go for the right reasons, your reasons.

 

[Rev. Horace]

Originally posted by lama
FINALLY!!!! THANK YOU Lector!!! This was the simple response I was looking for- Purely informational with a little advice added. The majority of the posts have been extremely helpful for me, I want to tell all of you thank you. I have learned more in the past few days, than in the previous few months.

From what I gather, transfering is very rare and something that one shouldn't bank on. If you are going to go to an Osteopathic School, then you should go for the right reasons, your reasons.

Your answer probably could have been arrived at earlier had you not decided intentionally, or unintentionally, to label most of the osteopathic population as allopathic wannabes.

Also, if you think all these osteopathic students are uncompassionate and insecure why don't you do over to the allo/pre-allo board and post something in reference allopaths being below osteopaths or osteopath wannabes?? What a warm reception that would be.

BTW, I don't think what occured was insecurity. What occured was you came off sounding like a tactless troll and were treated as such.

 

[group_theory]

Something to keep in mind

a lot of schools that accepts transfer student require a letter of recommendation from your school's current dean. Good luck getting a LOR from a dean of an osteopathic medical school if your only reason for transferring is "I want an MD instead of a DO".


OK, now the hot topic

Insulting people will usually incite an emotional response. It's like calling someone a chink or wetback or the N word and when there is an emotional response, go "geez, why so defensive? Is it because you are insecure about your cultural heritage?"

You did something similar. You made statements such as "More than half of you out there would take an MD today if you could."

When we reacted, your response was "I see how upset some of you guys get and I don't understand it. If you acknowlege the inferiority thing with anger and defensive responses instead of positive educational ones,"

It's like saying "geez, I only called you a chink or a gook - instead of getting angry at me, you should respond positively." Although in an ideal world that my response would be nice and positive and educational - we live in a real world and react emotionally when insulted.

Sorry - in a crappy mood today

 

[lama]

Horace- Obviously you havent read this thread. I already answered your objection in a previous post. I dont have the blessed luxury of living in Carthage, MO where I can go see the town DO. You have resources, I don't. Don't you get it?

To answer your first question: 80% made the trade in CA. Pretty substantial for a premed who has little info on osteopathy, living in a place where DO's are uncommon and have sold out in the past. And you wonder why I would ask the question?

Group- I've also answered your statement in a previous post. You, however, are out of line correlating a MD vs DO debate with racism. I find your remarks offensive and I would challenge you to correct them. If your'e going to use an analogy, make sure it correlates equally. I'm offended that you would correlate me with a racist. Also, just like almondjoy, it doesn't behoove someone who will one day be a physician to get so worked up and upset by some lowly premed making uninformed comments. If a Turets patient calls you a name during your psych rotation, are you going to reach across the table and knock the guy out? Hope not. Take almondjoy and the others on a "group" date to the anger management therapist.

 

[group_theory]

The wonderful thing about the English language is the word "LIKE" when use in a simile.

Today's weather is LIKE a wet sponze being sqeezed. I am not saying that the weather is a wet sponze being sqeeze (that would be a metaphore)

Anyway, in no way did I say you were racist. I am not comparing your question to racism. Chill and re-read what I wrote - this time don't BE defensive about being called a racist because I was not calling you a racist. Hopefully you'll see what I meant in my previous post.

Hint - it has to do w/ your responses to our responses.

P.S. I'm glad you already know me enough to conclude that I have a problem w/ anger management. For the record, it's spelled Tourette.

 

[lama]

Anyway, in no way did I say you were racist. I am not comparing your question to racism

It's like saying "geez, I only called you a chink or a gook

????... Ok... sure.

Today's weather is LIKE a wet sponze being sqeezed. I am not saying that the weather is a wet sponze being sqeeze (that would be a metaphore)

???...spelling???

 

[group_theory]

Ack - nice catch on the spelling mistake. Guess playing Empire Earth for 6 hrs (and losing ) does have an effect on the brain.

Anyway, again, not calling you a racist.

I was comparing your indignation to our responses TO a possible indignation due to a negative emotional response from a racist statement - hehe, if that makes any sense

Anyway, this is already the second post where I'm saying that I'm not calling you a racist. I'm gonna leave it at that.

OK - back to Empire Earth - I want a rematch

 

[DrMom]

Originally posted by lama
To answer your first question: 80% made the trade in CA. Pretty substantial for a premed who has little info on osteopathy, living in a place where DO's are uncommon and have sold out in the past. And you wonder why I would ask the question?

I thought you claimed to not really know anything about this, now you're giving us stats?

BTW: please refer back to previous posts here about the CA DO-->MD debacle and do a search on SDN. Those DOs didn't happily "trade" their degrees. They were pressured into doing so. A great resource on the history of DOs, which includes the whole CA issue is The Difference a DO Makes.

 

[lama]

I thought you claimed to not really know anything about this, now you're giving us stats?

See the link on tkim6599's post on page 2. It was 86% to be exact.

 

[doctorperez]

Originally posted by lama
So if Osteopathy is so wonderful and prestigous and well-respected why did so many DO's make the trade in California?

More than that, I wanted to see how I would be treated for asking such an honest question. Those of you who were upset and insulted me don't reflect well as ambassadors to your profession. Why would I want to go to a DO school, when some people treat others who are less informed, in the manner you have treated me? You do nothing to promote yourselves as compassionate, caring professionals.

The fact some DOs made the trade does not undermine the wonderfulness of the profession. Defending a belief which is not looked favorably due to ignorance is not a call for everyone and not defending it by trading your degree does not reflect on the greatness or lack of the same.

Now whether it is prestigious and well-respected it depends on who you ask, but again most detractors stem from ignorance of the profession.

Furthermore, beyond all our wishes to be compassionate, etc, with your wrongful assertion that most DOs would want to transfer to MD you are challenging our dignity. At that point, our replies are farthes from compassion.

 

[doctorperez]

Originally posted by Slickness
See. Lama is from CA and he/she does not know much about DOs just as I did not.

Slickness, the fact Lama claimed to know more than half DOs would trade for an MD defeats the argument that she does not kno much about DOs. When you are ignorant on a subject, you do not/should not go off expressing such assertions.

 

[lama]

Originally posted by doctorperez
The fact some DOs made the trade does not undermine the wonderfulness of the profession. Defending a belief which is not looked favorably due to ignorance is not a call for everyone and not defending it by trading your degree does not reflect on the greatness or lack of the same.

Now whether it is prestigious and well-respected it depends on who you ask, but again most detractors stem from ignorance of the profession.

Furthermore, beyond all our wishes to be compassionate, etc, with your wrongful assertion that most DOs would want to transfer to MD you are challenging our dignity. At that point, our replies are farthes from compassion.

Thats great. But it doesn't change the fact that you have the power to choose your response. Your a human being with proactive free-will, not one of Pavlov's dogs.

Wonderfulness??

 

[ameier14]

lama,

I wish I would have seen this thread earlier. I live in SF and I know of some of the challenges you've faced as a premed. Im going to AZCOM next year and if you want any advice or help, feel free to PM me.

As far as this thread is concerned, I believe it's pretty cooked. I'm also a little disappointed in the few that came after you because of your ignorance. But you have to understand that your statements can be taken as an insult, ignorant or not. Now you know better. I think its time you use your resources and lay off the thread a little bit, this could go on forever. I believe your original question has been objectively answered. Osteopathy is where it's at. I wouldn't change my decision for the world.

 

[doctorperez]

Originally posted by lama
Thats great. But it doesn't change the fact that you have the power to choose your response. Your a human being with proactive free-will, not one of Pavlov's dogs.

Wonderfulness??

We are not pavlov's dogs but we are also animals with feelings.

And yes Lama, Wonderfulness. See its meaning in the dictionary, by clicking HERE .

 

[doctorperez]

Originally posted by Slickness
In fact, actually it does prove Lama is ignorant. For example, most people who carry prejudices or racist ideas are ignorant because they have not really learned about the other culture thorougly. It is only until they do learn and become educated that they realize everyone is equal and that they shouldn't be racist. The same goes for here. Lama is ignorant and so he/she doesn't know the truth about DOs and assumes things that aren't true.

When I first found out about DOs, I didn't think they were real doctors. It wasn't until I learned more that I came to know the truth.

Slickness, let us not get all entangled in the word game..Feel me here bred!

The issue I see is, I do not walk up to a group of physicians and tell them: Look I am ignorant about what you do, but half of you guys would trade your degrees given a chance.

I dunno slickness but that is not my idea of not genuinely knowing about something. There is a conflict there in saying you do not know about something, yet making assertions about it. Yes - people who are ignorant of a subject do sometimes make misinformed claims on the very subject. However, once you do that, you should not appeal to the "I do not know about the subject" excuse - If you do not know enough about a subject, reserve your assertions until you can form a more based opinion. Don't you think?

 

[Rev. Horace]

Originally posted by lama
Horace- Obviously you havent read this thread. I already answered your objection in a previous post. I dont have the blessed luxury of living in Carthage, MO where I can go see the town DO. You have resources, I don't. Don't you get it?

Kindly point me to where you answered my questions (sans the cali one which you just answered) and I will concede defeat. Also, I have never intended any of my posts as an attack on you. I was just trying to help you get why people reacted the way they did. If you percieved them as attacks I'm sorry as they were not intended to be.

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by lama
I dont have the blessed luxury of living in Carthage, MO where I can go see the town DO.

You could check out the San Diego association of Osteopathic Physicians that meets the second Thursday of each month.

http://www.sdoma.org/

 

[skypilot]

Or get in touch with this DO at the bottom of this list that just finished up her residency at Stanford.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/sjmc/residents.html