Training and economics: US vs Africa

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opr8n

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so we had a grand rounds today froma practicing gen surgeon and PD of a residency in africa. Very interesting, true general surgeons, do alot more than most gen surgeons would do in the states

two things caught my mind though:

1. It is soo much cheaper for the patients in africa, albeit conditions are very different. An open appy is $50 cash out the door, lap chole $200 !!! her is the states a lap chole when all is said and done costs prob $3-6K, and their results arent any worse!!
You wonder why our system is broke

2. Autonomy is still preserved for residents. The PD said that at night, a gall bladder, appendix, or perf bowel that goes to OR is done by a senior/junior combo. Attending dosent even get called unless there is a problem, not even to let them know they went to the OR! By the time they graduate, they are VERY autonomous, un like most chiefs in the US, sadly

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Well I am sure everything is alot cheaper in some African countries. And from what I've heard, many patients in those countries can't even afford paying 200 bucks for a lap chole, end up going to public hospitals to get simple surgeries done for free, and die in the process of doing so because of either unsterile technique or incompetence.

All I am sayin is, I will trust a surgeon who graduated from this country to do a lap chole on me over one who graduated from Africa.
 
Well I am sure everything is alot cheaper in some African countries. And from what I've heard, many patients in those countries can't even afford paying 200 bucks for a lap chole, end up going to public hospitals to get simple surgeries done for free, and die in the process of doing so because of either unsterile technique or incompetence.

All I am sayin is, I will trust a surgeon who graduated from this country to do a lap chole on me over one who graduated from Africa.

I doubt the operation is a lot different over there. I would think that the tools and facilities would have the larger impact on your outcome than where the surgeon trained. Also, I bet a lot of the surgeons in Africa versed in laparoscopy had training somewhere else.

We have a couple residents in my program that do overseas work, and in their trips to Africa, there wasn't any laparoscopy available....but they were specifically targeting the most underserved areas of Zimbabwe, so that would make sense.

Probably the tool that is missing from there that would get the best use would be a portable ultrasound.
 
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Autonomy is still preserved for residents. The PD said that at night, a gall bladder, appendix, or perf bowel that goes to OR is done by a senior/junior combo. Attending dosent even get called unless there is a problem, not even to let them know they went to the OR! By the time they graduate, they are VERY autonomous, un like most chiefs in the US, sadly

Having a setup similar to this was very high on my priorities for places that I was looking for for residency... and my top 2 places, while they still call the attending to let them know they are going to the OR, unless there is a problem, the attending won't be bothered (at my #1, either the attending will come in and stay in their office, or the trauma attending in house will "cover" the case, either way it is the chief resident walking the junior resident through these cases in the middle of the night)
 
Have you been anywhere in Africa? More to the point, have you worked in an African hospital?

These things are done out of pure necessity, not because they're "net efficient."

In many African** countries the number of fully trained operating surgeons is vanishingly small. Perhaps that country has a horrid education system (i.e. when the Belgian Congo won its independence, there were a total of 12 people in the nation with a college degree). Perhaps doctors migrate to the West as soon as possible, either due to a decimated Ministry of Health (i.e. Malawi) or protracted civil war (Angola, Liberia, Mozambique). Most others can literally only afford to eat if they serve exclusively private patients. And the volume of cases at these hospitals has to be seen to be believed-- attendings can't possibly cover all of them. So the residents in the public hospitals-- again, small in number compared to training programs here-- assume the responsibilities of an attending here in the US simply because they're stepping into a vaccum.

One thing that works very well there (but not here) is the existence of para-medical technicians trained to perform very specific health care roles that in the West are covered only by MDs. For example, in my past life I once had a gig running a field team in West Africa studying a trachoma outbreak. As part of the team I hired someone called a "Special Ophthalmic Nurse." He wasn't in fact a nurse, and he had completed the equivalent of the 10th grade here (meaning he was literate, numerate and spoke beautiful French), but he'd received 1 year of specialized training in trichiasis surgery. We'd travel around the bush and let the bush telegraph get going re: our presence. Patients would walk for miles to see us, already blind or close to it. I'd hold their heads in my lap outside under a nice shady tree and the Special Ophthlamic Nurse would perform the trichiasis surgery under local. I'd apply antibiotic ointment, bandage them up and continue on with my epidemiological study. That's all he could do-- trichiasis surgery-- but he could do it very, very well.

But since we're comparing US and African health care: was there post-op care? No. Was the surgery, in fact, conducted on my lap under a tree? Yes. Did the patients obtain relief from the pain of trichiasis, and halt the progression of blindness? We certainly hope so. So the "outcome" might be considered quite good-- I believe a fair sight better than not intervening at all-- but I highly doubt the outcome is superior or comparable to similar procedures if they were performed in the US (not that we even see that particular pathology-- I've seen more trichiasis and blinding trachoma than all the ophthalmologists at Columbia University Medical Center combined).

Lastly, the point made about fees is a very good one. For kicks sometime check out the average per capita annual income in various Sub-Saharan nations. Remember that outside of the cities (and even in certain markets within them) people still live in a largely cashless, barter-based subsistence agricultural economy. The fee for your lap chole is often half of a family's annual cash income-- and nobody's going to loan them anything, nobody's going to perform it for free. Surgical care is still very much out of reach for a large number of people.

**Caveat: "Africa" is certainly not a homogenous place. This isn't true everywhere-- Nigeria and Ghana come to mind as exceptions.
 
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Oh and Jojo, I rotated at Bellevue too and thought the autonomy was terrific. But there's no comparison whatsoever to what African residents are doing.
 
Blondedocteur is generally right.

Of course, things vary vastly from country to country and within countries. Kenya is also another country where things are "different" and and you can find more or less the entire spectrum, and doctors there in general make a fairly decent living. Uganda, TZ, Zambia, Bostwana, Namibia etc are also different. Also, most surgical residencies are located in cities, where usually tools and laparscopic facilities are generally available.

The number of trained surgeons is increasing, but slowly. Majority of med students choose to do Internal medicine, community health/public health because this is where the money is. Most jobs offered by NGOs, and internal health organizations from CDC, PEPFAR etc etc usually require some primary care/public health type background, and these jobs pay much better than surgery. I think the education systems in most countries are actually quite good. Surgical training/education is improving especially with the formation of a single body governing certification between countries e.g COSECSA for Eastern and Southern Africa (I go to their meetings every year) or WACS for West Africa.

I think surgical training between US and Africa is different because the needs, situations, diseases are different. I'm hesistant to say one type is overtly better than the other.
 
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