TPI- can you put following in same syringe

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SpineandWine

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Ketorolac, 40 mg depomedrol and 0.25% bupivicaine.
Let me know - are there concerns of precipitation?
A nurse is claiming they would not mix ketorolac with depo or bupivicaine

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Ketorolac, 40 mg depomedrol and 0.25% bupivicaine.
Let me know - are there concerns of precipitation?
A nurse is claiming they would not mix ketorolac with depo or bupivicaine
Why do you care if it precipitates? Depo is already particulate. And you're injecting in muscle so why are you worried? That's not an uncommon IM cocktail done by PCP/ER/urgent care.
 
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Normally I don’t- just a question that came up.
She was adamant in not mixing ketorolac and depomedrol for IM.
Rarely do I do this. I was not able to come in for a supervised TPI, as I was on other side of hospital doing a procedure. I just said instead to give IM ketorolac and depo at one site while I was away in the buttocks. She stated you can’t mix the two for IM.

My opinion is it doesn’t matter but wanted your thoughts
 
What’s the downside if it precipitates a little in the muscle? Is she worried about tissue necrosis? I find that it’s better to explore what the actual concern is instead of arguing with nurses over the minutiae they are taught.
 
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Does she have literature that supports her assertion? My guess is she was taught that by an older RN who was taught by another RN who was taught by another RN....

That being said, it doesn't matter if it's IM and depo is already a particulate.

And I just to be clear, when you say "nurse" and "TPI", do you mean an NP doing a TPI or an RN doing an IM injection? I'm pretty sure RNs cannot do TPI.
 
She’s worried about clogging the needle? Lol yea why is a nurse telling you what to put in a syringe?

Edit I forgot this is the public forum
 
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It’s a recent NP (recent graduate) doing IM injection - saying this is what she was taught when she worked in ED as a nurse. She was making argument that it’s her license on line….

Agree, made no sense but she felt uncomfortable so didn’t do it
 
This is dumb. Med mixture is harmless.
 
As long as one of the trigger points isn't inside the patient's veins, it's meaningless if it precipitates
 
FYI, you can dilute your bupi down to 0.125% at least and still get an anesthetic effect for trigger points. Been doing it for years, saves tons of local. I like a lot of volume, 20 mL would be typical for a set of bilateral cervical trap injections along the fascia planes. I use 250 mL bags for economical saline.
 
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FYI, you can dilute your bupi down to 0.125% at least and still get an anesthetic effect for trigger points. Been doing it for years, saves tons of local. I like a lot of volume, 20 mL would be typical for a set of bilateral cervical trap injections along the fascia planes. I use 250 mL bags for economical saline.
You can also use carpenter nails as a touhy. Flexible straw as extension tubing. Car headlights can substitute in for a c-arm in a pinch.
 
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Thanks to supply shortages, the US is now an austere practice environment. Good call on the flexible straw!
Id actually love to use less sh@t during procedures. Just so much waste, plastic, etc....
 
do you use epidural kits? Since i was a fellow I thought they were a huge waste and take up so much space. My first job would use an entire closet for those huge trays stacked from the floor to the ceiling.
 
FYI, you can dilute your bupi down to 0.125% at least and still get an anesthetic effect for trigger points. Been doing it for years, saves tons of local. I like a lot of volume, 20 mL would be typical for a set of bilateral cervical trap injections along the fascia planes. I use 250 mL bags for economical saline.
... which of course you will only use for one patient...

"Even if a single-dose or single-use vial appears to contain multiple doses or contains more medication than is needed for a single patient, that vial should not be used for more than one patient nor stored for future use on the same patient."
Fyi, every saline bag is considered a single-dose.

"Multi-dose vials should be dedicated to a single patient whenever possible."
 
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... which of course you will only use for one patient...

"Even if a single-dose or single-use vial appears to contain multiple doses or contains more medication than is needed for a single patient, that vial should not be used for more than one patient nor stored for future use on the same patient."
Fyi, every saline bag is considered a single-dose.

"Multi-dose vials should be dedicated to a single patient whenever possible."

I'm aware of the CDC's recommendations.

Do any of you throw out an entire 50 mL bottle of Omni after using it for one injection? Of course you do.
 
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I'll continue reusing vials, and to those of you who don't, allow me to thank you for contributing to our medication shortages.

This thread is discussing TPI FFS.
 
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I'm aware of the CDC's recommendations.

Do any of you throw out an entire 50 mL bottle of Omni after using it for one injection? Of course you do.
I recognize that these CDC recommendations only came about due to reacting to the infections from New England compounding company.

The CDC rules on MDV are not based on science but based on the political art of trying to look you’re doing something. (After the New England compounding fiasco)
 
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It was more than just NECC. 2 separate issues - contaminated drugs and cross contamination by injection practices.

Cross contamination cases predated NECC disaster by quite a few years.

There was also a different compounding pharmacy complications, at least 13 of them, between 2001 and 2013.

In terms of cross contamination, there were several cases including 3 in a pain clinic in Arizona that lead to MRSA.

 
It was more than just NECC. 2 separate issues - contaminated drugs and cross contamination by injection practices.

Cross contamination cases predated NECC disaster by quite a few years.

There was also a different compounding pharmacy complications, at least 13 of them, between 2001 and 2013.

In terms of cross contamination, there were several cases including 3 in a pain clinic in Arizona that lead to MRSA.

Don't use the same syringe and a lot of those go away.

The ortho and pain clinic--probably didn't alcohol wipe between punctures or kept vials way too long
 
Sorry, but we're not in a situation of medication excess in 2023.

The risk is virtually zero.

Many thousands of procedures in our practice from 20+ doctors and an equal number of midlevels.

Yall are foolishly contributing to supply shortages and rising costs.
 
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Sorry, but we're not in a situation of medication excess in 2023.

The risk is virtually zero.

Many thousands of procedures in our practice from 20+ doctors and an equal number of midlevels.

Yall are foolishly contributing to supply shortages and rising costs.
I don’t currently do this. But I would defend your position.
 
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I don’t currently do this. But I would defend your position.
Noted...When I throw an MRSA wound in the ICU and I get sued you're gonna get a well-written PM from our practice attorney asking for help!
 
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Reference ?



Whenever possible, use of single-dose vials is preferred over multiple-dose vials, especially when medications will be administered to multiple patients. Outbreaks related to unsafe injection practices indicate that some healthcare personnel are unaware of, do not understand, or do not adhere to basic principles of infection control and aseptic technique.

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the "original" compounding pharmacy mess occurred in 2002.



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I posted this in 2013.


this field has so many other issues of concern - id personally think that a consensus approach would be most beneficial for Pain Medicine as a whole, so we dont get black eye from this aspect. lord knows we have enough issues regarding opioids, steroid injections, nerve blocks, etc to bury the field.


regardless, info is from a lecture by Therese Horlocker, from Mayo Clinic. its actually from 2012 - i initially thought it was from 2009. the 20 reported incidences were in a MMWR dated July 13, 2012.


One of the key studies she quotes is from Moen, 2004, Sweden. 1.2 million spinals, 450k epidurals. 29 cases of meningitis, frequency of 1:53000, one department apparently had 1:3000 incidence rate.

Another slide: break in aseptic technique lead to 4 confirmed and 5 suspected bacteremia following SI injections - sacroiliac, not S1.

in New York, 3 cases of spinal meningitis in 2008. In ohio, 2 cases. both clusters were with single anesthesiologist, Ohio one didnt wear mask.

Arizona pain clinic in 2010- MRSA related to use single dose vial for ESI/SGB.

Ortho clinic Delaware 2012 - 7 pts. hosp with MRSA from multiple use of single dose bupiv bottle for joint injections.

Morbidity Mortality Review - Grand rounds May 31, 2013:
Since 2001, at least 49 outbreaks have occurred because of extrinsic contamination of injectable medical products at the point of administration (3; CDC, unpublished data, 2013). Twenty-one of these outbreaks involved transmission of HBV or HCV; the other 28 represented outbreaks of bacterial infections, primarily invasive bloodstream infections. Approximately 90% of these known outbreaks occurred in outpatient settings. Pain management clinics, where injections often are administered into the spine and other sterile spaces using preservative-free medications, and cancer clinics, which typically provide chemotherapy or other infusion services to patients who might be immunocompromised, are represented disproportionately relative to the overall volume of outpatient care.
Several states are addressing the public health issue of unsafe injection practices, including New York. Since 2002, the New York State Department of Health (NYSDOH) has conducted 11 investigations of known or potential bloodborne pathogen transmissions that involved notification of nearly 10,000 persons (NYSDOH, unpublished data, 2012). The predominant modes of exposure or transmission discovered were related to unsafe injection practices similar to those described in the Nevada outbreak.

MMWR July 13, 12 was discussed previously, and on at least one separate thread.
Since 2007, the year that injection safety was included as part of Standard Precautions, 20 outbreaks associated with use of single-dose or single-use medications for more than one patient have been reported (1; CDC, unpublished data, 2012).

to rolo's comment - no it was using single dose vial for 4 separate patients, 3 of whom got MRSA.
 
Sorry, but we're not in a situation of medication excess in 2023.

The risk is virtually zero.

Many thousands of procedures in our practice from 20+ doctors and an equal number of midlevels.

Yall are foolishly contributing to supply shortages and rising costs.
it is appropriate to access multi dose vials repeatedly. generally they contain an antibacterial preservative.

you cannot say the same about reusing or reaccessing single dose vials, since pandemic practices are ending (a lot of practices were "allowed" during the pandemic").

 
it is appropriate to access multi dose vials repeatedly. generally they contain an antibacterial preservative.

you cannot say the same about reusing or reaccessing single dose vials, since pandemic practices are ending (a lot of practices were "allowed" during the pandemic").

If you sterilize it and draw up all the meds back to back to back and don't contaminate your needle it's fine.

The risk of that becoming infectious is dramatically less than whatever procedure you're about to do.
 
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At my old practice we'd have a bottle of Omni in each of two fluoro rooms. Each would see ~25+ dye cases per day, with two different docs drawing from the SDV bottle with a 20g needle. The top would get alcohol wiped by the tech between cases. The bottle would be discarded at the end of the day. Despite being *kind of* uncomfortable with this barely adequate setup, no infections in 10+ years.
 
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Don’t put corticosteroids in your TPI

It’s not an inflammatory condition. Don’t Bombard people with steroids

Learn to do US guided plane injections also. You’ll get better results and dispersion of injectate
 
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Don’t put corticosteroids in your TPI

It’s not an inflammatory condition. Don’t Bombard people with steroids

Learn to do US guided plane injections also. You’ll get better results and dispersion of injectate
Systematic review
 

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Don’t put corticosteroids in your TPI

It’s not an inflammatory condition. Don’t Bombard people with steroids

Learn to do US guided plane injections also. You’ll get better results and dispersion of injectate
Agree with this. Steroids have no role in TPI.

they are for noctors who can’t do a proper TPI, so they just do an IM steroid injection, which they call a TPI.
 
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