Touro in Harlem vs Ross U

[nater]

A friend of mine is looking for advice about whether to attend Touro COM in Harlem or Ross U this coming year. I know SDN tends towards DO over Carribean, but given that Touro Harlem isn't fully accredited yet and has limited locations for clinical rotations, would you all still support Touro over Ross?

Thanks.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[patel2]

A friend of mine is looking for advice about whether to attend Touro COM in Harlem or Ross U this coming year. I know SDN tends towards DO over Carribean, but given that Touro Harlem isn't fully accredited yet and has limited locations for clinical rotations, would you all still support Touro over Ross?

Thanks.

Touro is a newer DO school, but it certainly is the better bet than Ross. Nearly 100% of the students will match from Touro while 50-60% of incoming students from day 1 will match from Ross. It's my understanding that Touro did have a very good match list for it's first graduating class.

That said, I'm not opposed to the idea of reapplying. If you want MD, strengthen your numbers or do an SMP to get into a US allo school, or even reapply to some more established DO schools. Contrary to SDN myth, there are tons of people on here who were accepted to a school, declined so they could reapply, and still received multiple acceptances...schools do not know about prior acceptances unless you tell them (in the DO world at least). Though many will tell you otherwise, you will not be placed on some sort of 'blacklist' for declining touro and trying at it again at other DO schools.

Caribbean IMO is never a good option if you have the grades to get into a US school, and the prospects are only going to get far worse in the next decade. It will be even more competitive in the 2015 match than it is today.

 

[Janus2011]

I agree with Patel2. As someone who knows people wrapping up their elective rotations over at Ross, I can definitely say that less than half of each class even makes it to taking step 1 (about 200 of the 450 they came in with made it). If we were talking about SGU or AUC, the comparison gets more complicated depending on who you ask... my college advisor told me straight up because of affiliations, SGU is a better choice right now than Touro in Harlem, although that won't be case many years from now. From what I've been told, RossU will just keep going downhill while Touro-com will only get better.

 

[patel2]

I agree with Patel2. As someone who knows people wrapping up their elective rotations over at Ross, I can definitely say that less than half of each class even makes it to taking step 1 (about 200 of the 450 they came in with made it). If we were talking about SGU or AUC, the comparison gets more complicated depending on who you ask... my college advisor told me straight up because of affiliations, SGU is a better choice right now than Touro in Harlem, although that won't be case many years from now. From what I've been told, RossU will just keep going downhill while Touro-com will only get better.

I would agree that SGU has better affiliations and in some cases an overall better clinical rotation experience than Touro, as they pay 100 million to rotate at the best hospitals in NYC, although this may change with new legislation being passed to protect NYC med schools.

But that doesn't really matter as far as residency prospects and how well someone fares in the match. SGU is quick to boast things like a 90% USMLE pass rate, 90% match and great rotations, but they don't preface that with the statistic that something like 60-70% of students from Day 1 match within 4 years. So 90% of 60-70% isn't all that impressive IMO. They lose people from attrition, internal tests required to sit for the USMLE, those who repeat a year, do "research" after graduation for 1,2 or 3 years, and overall face a bigger obstacle/stigma in the ACGME match than a DO, without having a separate match to fall back on.

That said, I'm not pro-Touro by any means, more of just anti-Carib the more and more I read about the schools and the expansion of US schools which will make it even harder for FMGs. I think the students who make it out of the Carib are very smart, and just as qualified as anyone else, but they had to overcome a much larger obstacle to get from point A to B than US students, and many in retrospect will acknowledge this and advise applicants to avoid the Carib if possible. I don't know much about Touro, just that it's accredited US institution...

IMO the better question to ask yourself isn't Touro v Ross, it's Touro vs. reapply (if you don't feel comfortable about Touro, that is.)

 

[Janus2011]

Ditto. Strictly answering the question posted, I would say go Touro-Com. However, I'm also left wondering why not re-apply. I don't know your friend at all, so I don't know what situation S/he is in.
I've seen it with Ross students I know and others who they talk about: students with stellar grades with ZERO bedside manner making extra classes/ECs basically pointless, students with decent grades but horrible Mcat scores who just don't want to take it again and feel like they can handle the coursework, others who have a dead set timeline for finishing school (no matter where), getting married, having kids, etc. If your friend is either unwilling (for whatever reason it is) to put in the extra time in reapplying or feels that S/he won't be able to improve that much in doing so, then go Touro!

Of course, that purely my opinion. Were there any particular points of comparison you were looking for?

 

[Brachyury]

I would agree that SGU has better affiliations and in some cases an overall better clinical rotation experience than Touro, as they pay 100 million to rotate at the best hospitals in NYC, although this may change with new legislation being passed to protect NYC med schools.

But that doesn't really matter as far as residency prospects and how well someone fares in the match. SGU is quick to boast things like a 90% USMLE pass rate, 90% match and great rotations, but they don't preface that with the statistic that something like 60-70% of students from Day 1 match within 4 years. So 90% of 60-70% isn't all that impressive IMO. They lose people from attrition, internal tests required to sit for the USMLE, those who repeat a year, do "research" after graduation for 1,2 or 3 years, and overall face a bigger obstacle/stigma in the ACGME match than a DO, without having a separate match to fall back on.

That said, I'm not pro-Touro by any means, more of just anti-Carib the more and more I read about the schools and the expansion of US schools which will make it even harder for FMGs. I think the students who make it out of the Carib are very smart, and just as qualified as anyone else, but they had to overcome a much larger obstacle to get from point A to B than US students, and many in retrospect will acknowledge this and advise applicants to avoid the Carib if possible. I don't know much about Touro, just that it's accredited US institution...

IMO the better question to ask yourself isn't Touro v Ross, it's Touro vs. reapply (if you don't feel comfortable about Touro, that is.)

If you mean the worst public hospitals in Brooklyn, then yes, yes you are correct

 

[mmmcdowe]

If you mean the worst public hospitals in Brooklyn, then yes, yes you are correct

Seriously, they do NOT rotate through the best (very often at least). I haven't ever seen them at any of Columbia or Cornell's affiliates, nor have I heard of them at any of the Sinai or NYU affiliates. Plus, didn't they recently get put under the microscope by NY in which they were considering axing some of their hospital choices?

 

[DocEspana]

There are Columbia, Einstein, Cornell and Downstate affiliates that were lost to either SGU or Ross. I work with the schools and have seen the legislation going down now, its not like they lose C-P or Jacobi, but they are losing their second level hospitals that they usually send a handful of students from, and which are frequently shared among all the NYC schools (Harlem Hospital, Lennox Hill, Coney Island and Bronx Lebanon come to mind). Some have been partially reclaimed, some are lost, but none of them are anywhere near where they were pre-2008.

I just popped in here to say that Touro is accredited. One of the posts said otherwise. Beyond that: tell your friend to either re-apply to take Touro-Harlem. I'm from there so I'm going to mostly recuse myself, but we did have a really strong match right out of the bat. Something a lot of schools in the DO world can't say (I'm sure allopathic schools are more prone to strong first matching classes because of the affiliated hospitals). Thats all. I hope they find the answer they're looking for.

P.S.: don't ever go carib. I work on the legislation going on in NY and the potential legislation that is going to be presented nationally to the AMA to make a priority in Washington DC. It's not very offshore friendly. Ontop of that the new "All-in" policy on pre-matching will be a big blow against offshore schools.

 

[patel2]

Seriously, they do NOT rotate through the best (very often at least). I haven't ever seen them at any of Columbia or Cornell's affiliates, nor have I heard of them at any of the Sinai or NYU affiliates. Plus, didn't they recently get put under the microscope by NY in which they were considering axing some of their hospital choices?

This may be true. I just assumed the 100 million they paid was landing them into high quality hospitals and not shi**y brooklyn hospitals, but I guess this is just not the case. Another reason to avoid the Carib.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I can't speak for the other two, but I can't find any mentioning of a Harlem-SGU/Ross connection on any of their websites and I haven't ever seen them there.

 

[nater]

Thanks to everyone for sharing their insights into the decision, it sounds like most people agree with what my relatively uninformed perspective was (that ross is a much riskier choice). I'll definitely pass this discussion on to my friend.

 

[DocEspana]

I can't speak for the other two, but I can't find any mentioning of a Harlem-SGU/Ross connection on any of their websites and I haven't ever seen them there.

Harlem Hospital is the big battle because SGU got that as part of the HHC deal, but Columbia never waived the rights to the hospital, blah blah blah. Cue SGU kicking Touro out of there in 2009 and Columbia pulling all their students for about a year and a half. 2 years later we came back (Columbia and Touro) and reaffirmed that liquidating everyone's rotation slots there was ****ty. Literally right after that Harlem hospital came off SGU's list of affiliated hospitals.

Note: there are still no american students rotating there, unless columbia recently re-upped, but I havent heard that from the last time I talked with their leadership. Its all SGU. I think the trouble Columbia rained down on Harlem Hospital was enough for SGU to not advertise a continued affiliation there right now. I only know this because I was on student doctor the day they took it down. I had posted SGU's affiliation list about a month before Columbia came storming through on page 1 of a thread and then someone else posted it afterwards, sans harlem, on page 6 or 7 of the same thread. SGU student, the few that talk to me, have rotated through there as recently as last semester and dont know why its not listed anymore.

Second note: Harlem hospital was TouroCOM's university hospital for the first year of the schools existence, in 2007, after we cut a deal with Columbia to use it since they were heavily underutilizing it to switch the affiliation to us. My friends in columbia tell me they have to keep so many people there as part of their accreditation standards and that they've been sending the bare minimum possible for a while, so they were happy to pass it off officially. In 2008 the HHC deal happened and Touro got kicked out and our contract bought out as well as Columbia, who I believe pulled out rather than be kicked out. Both columbia and touro were only able to re-open lines of communication early in 2011.

Third note: lets not make this thread about this. Just wanted to clarify why you didnt see harlem hospital on there.

 

[vicinihil]

there is absolutely NO advantage to going to a Caribbean school. Regardless the reputation in the Caribbean, you will be a disadvantage coming out of a Ross/SGU/etc than coming from a DO program in the states.

I've met people from these schools and they all complain about the education and clinical rotations most of which they schedule themselves. They get abused by physicians at NY hospitals partially because of the malignant environment they throw themselves into. NY hospitals pick up Caribbean students to keep their books afloat.

Match rate is dismal as is Step 1 performance except for the select few. Even then, the program they match into is inferior.

5-10yrs down the road, you'll be happy you went to a US school.