Top 5 DO schools

[ciestar]

TBH, I am not as surprised. There are just so much competition for rotation spots in the northeast from the Caribbean that these can be part of the fallout, unfortunately. As well, the massive expansion from both MD and DO schools everywhere under the sun certainly is not helping.

...and hospitals closing

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[DrStephenStrange]

So I know oldest school by no means equals “best school.” Where would one out KCOM in a ranking? Top 10? They seemed to have nice facilities and great staff. The rotation sites also seemed adequate and the board scores were nice as well. I just don’t see ATSU talked about on here a lot, so just wanted to cast a net and see what others seem to think.

They don't talk about it a lot because
1) People hate the fact they have way too many hours dedicated to OMM.
2) Have you seen Kirksville? The school has been there for over 120 years, and yet the town hasn't grown around the school that much at all, so the school is almost forgotten by most people even in-state. I lived and went to undergrad in KC, 2 hrs away, and yet I didn't know about KCOM till senior year. Everyone knew about KCU though.
3) For a veteran school, it doesn't offer anything special compared to the average DO school. Even their match list is very average.

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[DameJulie]

It may have gotten better Over past few years. I’ll retract that one

@alprazoslam Do you mind sending me a PM? I wanted to ask you something but couldn't initiate a PM.

 

[Ho0v-man]

They don't talk about it a lot because
1) People hate the fact they have way too many hours dedicated to OMM.
2) Have you seen Kirksville? The school has been there for over 120 years, and yet the town hasn't grown around the school that much at all, so the school is almost forgotten by most people even in-state. I lived and went to undergrad in KC, 2 hrs away, and yet I didn't know about KCOM till senior year. Everyone knew about KCU though.
3) For a veteran school, it doesn't offer anything special compared to the average DO school. Even their match list is very average.

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To add to this:
The OMM is over the top and I think poorly taught tbh. In fourth semester it’s pretty much done but they keep finding ways to drag it out for several more months. Take this with a grain of salt tho bc I despise OMM.

kirksville as as a location is miserable. It’s very conducive to studying since there’s not much else to do. But I didn’t realize how bad my mental health had suffered from being in Kirksville until I left. Even the folks from MO agreed the weather there is insane.

As far as the “average match lists”, I’ll concede we don’t have good research. We also don’t have nearby facilities for it or a very long summer break to do your own thing (4 weeks). But on the flip side, a ton of our class came in legitimately wanting primary care/PM&R etc. in the Midwest which doesn’t lend itself well to impressive match lists.

I think as far as our curriculum, cardiology was poorly taught by the basic science faculty. Neuroanatomy was poorly done as well. You’re essentially on your own for stats.

I used to think biochem was bad but talking to students from other schools (MD/DO) it seems like it’s just trash everywhere lol.

Beyond the above, I think it’s actually pretty good. I know the above seems like a lot but I’m being purposely hypercritical right now. Premeds considering this or other schools please keep in mind that just bc I’m saying this about KCOM, doesn’t mean theres only perfection to be found at other schools.

Anatomy was over the top. But that’s very school specific. Immunology and micro were super good. Made boards look like a joke. Pharm didn’t do right by my class on antibiotics but apparently we complained so much that now that part is lining up well with uworld and sketchy. Otherwise pharm was good, but didn’t get taught in the order of FA sometimes. Physiology minus cardio was pretty solid. Path was good. Our clinical classes were on point and I’m still using stuff from those lectures.

We have some really good and some really meh 3rd year sites. I think kcu is kind of crushing our presence in MO so our best sites aren’t in state.

Overall, I think it’s done a fine job. I definitely didn’t feel that way until seeing it pay off in third year. B+ due to the above and the high tuition.

 

[Ho0v-man]

So I know oldest school by no means equals “best school.” Where would one out KCOM in a ranking? Top 10? They seemed to have nice facilities and great staff. The rotation sites also seemed adequate and the board scores were nice as well. I just don’t see ATSU talked about on here a lot, so just wanted to cast a net and see what others seem to think.

See above

 

[deleted1020563]

How many hours of OMM does KCOM have?
We do 4 a week which isn't too bad but it piles on quickly.

 

[Ho0v-man]

How many hours of OMM does KCOM have?
We do 4 a week which isn't too bad but it piles on quickly.

4/week

 

[alprazoslam]

Isn’t most omm taught poorly since usually the faculty are pretty much barely pass physicians? We had a couple decent ones but for the most part oh em gee I’d rather be seen by a np than our omm faculty they were that bad

 

[Ho0v-man]

Isn’t most omm taught poorly since usually the faculty are pretty much barely pass physicians? We had a couple decent ones but for the most part oh em gee I’d rather be seen by a np than our omm faculty they were that bad

Meh. The vibe I got was more along the lines of them not doing most of the nonsense stuff either and not being interested in stuff they don’t use.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Isn’t most omm taught poorly since usually the faculty are pretty much barely pass physicians? We had a couple decent ones but for the most part oh em gee I’d rather be seen by a np than our omm faculty they were that bad

Depends. The pure OMM people yes, but most of our OMM faculty are FM docs who just would come help out with OMM because I’m sure the school augmented their salary for doing so. Most of them rolled their eyes with us when we were doing cranial or chapman’s points

 

[JustTooLit]

You're missing MSU, KCU, OSU, OU, RVU.

Edit: why do people still wanna attend CCOM and AZCOM with their outrageous cost of attendance? Which is about $100,000 or more higher than most schools.

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I'm not sure about AZCOM (unless you like getting roasted by the sun) but CCOM IK many of my friends are interested in due to the city of Chicago. The tuition rates look terrible.

 

[Whysoez]

Reading threads like this just too overwhelmingly factual......part of me wants to try harder and retake the MCAT, other the part just wants to roll with DO

 

[deleted1020563]

Reading threads like this just too overwhelmingly factual......part of me wants to try harder and retake the MCAT, other the part just wants to roll with DO

I mean, if you're fine with PC, Anesthesia, Path or Neuro, go for it. Otherwise the MD is probably worth the extra year.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I'm not sure about AZCOM (unless you like getting roasted by the sun) but CCOM IK many of my friends are interested in due to the city of Chicago. The tuition rates look terrible.

The city of Chicago is really not worth almost half a mil of debt for a medical degree which will most likely land you in a PC job with ~200K income.

 

[Whysoez]

I mean, if you're fine with PC, Anesthesia, Path or Neuro, go for it. Otherwise the MD is probably worth the extra year.

The problem is it is too early for me to know. I am 100% sure I won't be getting near anything surgical though. I am gravitating towards IM atm.

 

[Ho0v-man]

The city of Chicago is really not worth almost half a mil of debt for a medical degree which will most likely land you in a PC job with ~200K income.

B-b-but deep dish!!!

 

[deleted1020563]

Be interesting to see a PSLF report in 10 years on what percentage of students at which institutions went that route.
Guessing CCOM, AZCOM and MSU in top 10.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I mean, if you're fine with PC, Anesthesia, Path or Neuro, go for it. Otherwise the MD is probably worth the extra year.

And EM, Peds, PM&R, psych, Ob/Gyn. And their subspecialties.
Also still doable with a strong app: Gen Surg, Radiology.

Edit: Rad Onc could probably be on the list too.

 

[Whysoez]

I get the same feeling whenever I start a new MMO - Which class to pick? lolol

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Be interesting to see a PSLF report in 10 years on what percentage of students at which institutions went that route.
Guessing CCOM, AZCOM and MSU in top 10.

99% of people that apply for PSLF get denied, so that does not even matter.

 

[deleted1020563]

99% of people that apply for PSLF get denied, so that does not even matter.

I thought this was debunked? Most of the people who applied didn't have direct federal loans or didn't make enough qualifying payments. It was launched in 2007, so the first year would've been 2017-18.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I thought this was debunked? Most of the people who applied didn't have direct federal loans or didn't make enough qualifying payments. It was launched in 2007, so the first year would've been 2017-18.

View attachment 287792

There are also those that despite submitting all the paperwork and make 120 payments still get denied PSLF.

3 Borrowers Win Case on Eligibility for Public Service Loan Forgiveness (Published 2019)

A federal judge said the Department of Education had changed its policies without proper notice, throwing the lives of the student-loan borrowers into chaos.

www.nytimes.com

 

[deleted1020563]

There are also those that despite submitting all the paperwork and make 120 payments still get denied PSLF.

3 Borrowers Win Case on Eligibility for Public Service Loan Forgiveness (Published 2019)

A federal judge said the Department of Education had changed its policies without proper notice, throwing the lives of the student-loan borrowers into chaos.

www.nytimes.com

I don't understand the argument here. These 3 were denied PSLF so PSLF doesn't matter anymore? You also ignored the 99% thing.

1,216 out of the 1,724 individuals on track to make the required 120 payments between 2019-2021 have already been approved.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/data-center/student/loan-forgiveness/pslf-data

FSA Training Conference: Sessions (session 22)

They've even extended it so certain payments made not under a qualifying plan can be used. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-...-public-service-loan-forgiveness#why-eligible

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I don't understand the argument here. These 3 were denied PSLF so PSLF doesn't matter anymore? You also ignored the 99% thing.

1,216 out of the 1,724 individuals on track to make the required 120 payments between 2019-2021 have already been approved.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/data-center/student/loan-forgiveness/pslf-data

FSA Training Conference: Sessions (session 22)

They've even extended it so certain payments made not under a qualifying plan can be used. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-...-public-service-loan-forgiveness#why-eligible

I'm not ignoring the 99% argument. I'm just saying that many that didn't make the cut may be having similar experience as these 3 guys. Fulfilling all the requirements, submitting all the paperwork, and still get denied 10 years down the line. If what you're saying is true, then good to hear. But from what I have heard from people in the field, majority of people that should qualify for it actually get denied.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I don't understand the argument here. These 3 were denied PSLF so PSLF doesn't matter anymore? You also ignored the 99% thing.

1,216 out of the 1,724 individuals on track to make the required 120 payments between 2019-2021 have already been approved.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/about/data-center/student/loan-forgiveness/pslf-data

FSA Training Conference: Sessions (session 22)

They've even extended it so certain payments made not under a qualifying plan can be used. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-...-public-service-loan-forgiveness#why-eligible

Here's a thread where some people have been talking about that recently. Perhaps you could share some wisdom with the people over there.

Primary care loan vs Public loan forgiveness

Hello everybody, My school financial aid adviser was talking to me about my options to pay back my loans. I have 280K in debt and I have an offer from PCL to cover it all however, that will disqualify me from loan forgiveness what do you guys think ?

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[alprazoslam]

Depends. The pure OMM people yes, but most of our OMM faculty are FM docs who just would come help out with OMM because I’m sure the school augmented their salary for doing so. Most of them rolled their eyes with us when we were doing cranial or chapman’s points

We have the Ye Ole Gaurd

 

[JustTooLit]

I mean, if you're fine with PC, Anesthesia, Path or Neuro, go for it. Otherwise the MD is probably worth the extra year.

You're forgetting EM, Radiology (top tier salary) & General Surgery, which many DOs have been matching into apparently (especially Emergency Medicine, which is a fairly well paid specialty)

 

[deleted1020563]

I'm not ignoring the 99% argument. I'm just saying that many that didn't make the cut may be having similar experience as these 3 guys. Fulfilling all the requirements, submitting all the paperwork, and still get denied 10 years down the line. If what you're saying is true, then good to hear. But from what I have heard from people in the field, majority of people that should qualify for it actually get denied.

My only real point here is that PSLF is working according to the number that have been approved and amount of debt forgiven and I think it's one of the few actual positive programs that try to address student debt. Having people throw out a sensationalized 99% number is only going to provide fodder against PSLF when it comes time to decide whether or not to keep funding it.

Here's a thread where some people have been talking about that recently. Perhaps you could share some wisdom with the people over there.

Primary care loan vs Public loan forgiveness

Hello everybody, My school financial aid adviser was talking to me about my options to pay back my loans. I have 280K in debt and I have an offer from PCL to cover it all however, that will disqualify me from loan forgiveness what do you guys think ?

forums.studentdoctor.net

It was mentioned there already.

You're forgetting EM, Radiology (top tier salary) & General Surgery, which many DOs have been matching into apparently (especially Emergency Medicine, which is a fairly well paid specialty)

You're right, DR and EM are pretty DO accessible. But I'll argue that GS isn't owing to their 50-70% match rate and the frequency of programs interviewing a DO from the PD survey.

 

[deleted831695]

There's no real prestige going to ____ DO school, but at least I can guarantee that PDs know of large public universities like Michigan State University or Oklahoma State University than, I don't know, the Idaho College of Osteopathic Medicine (no offense to anyone who goes there). Regardless, when it comes to residency, board scores/LORs/research/no red flags/choice of specialty/where you apply for residency/interviews > > > > > what school you attend. Some schools do prepare you better for the boards (I don't think my school was the best at it, but there was plenty of time outside of class for a person to put effort into board prep, if they wanted). I'm at least glad MSU has a statewide campus system GME, and Michigan is a DO-friendly state, since like 80%+ of our grads match in-state.

 

[7000101201110]

Cusom I can see getting there after another decade or so

Outcomes - School of Osteopathic Medicine - Campbell University

Campbell's School of Osteopathic Medicine (CUSOM) students have consistently achieved competitive outcomes on licensing examinations & residency placements.

medicine.campbell.edu

It looks like its already approaching. Its new but has throw up some impressive numbers and matches already. Strong board scores and pass rates higher than many if not most DO schools already. Top 5 or not, some of the 'better' schools are just up there given their name value imo.

 

[deleted936470]

lol @ DO students/faculty worried about the *~prestige~* of their school, I rolled my eyes so hard my neck almost dislocated

 

[Dr. Death]

lol @ DO students/faculty worried about the *~prestige~* of their school, I rolled my eyes so hard my neck almost dislocated

occulogyric reflex. I can fix that for you

 

[Dissected]

You're right, DR and EM are pretty DO accessible. But I'll argue that GS isn't owing to their 50-70% match rate and the frequency of programs interviewing a DO from the PD survey.

^ Accurate

If you want to go into general surgery, go to an MD school if you can. It has become wildly competitive over the past 5 years, many programs with high board score cutoffs. Coming from a DO school it is certainly possible, but you will need to really stand out. I probably wouldn't have gotten many interviews now with the scores I had when applying..which were quite respectable!

 

[Achnologiast]

How would you rank PCOM-South Georgia and Lake Erie Bradenton among DO schools ? Also, is it possible to get into dermatology going to a DO school? Thanks!

 

[Deecee2DO]

How would you rank PCOM-South Georgia and Lake Erie Bradenton among DO schools ? Also, is it possible to get into dermatology going to a DO school? Thanks!

Not applying Derm but from my knowledge as an MS3-It is possible but its super super challenging. Derm is hard for both MDs and DOs and with Step and COMLEX both going P/F its going to make Derm even harder for DOs. Getting into a DO Derm residency is hard but getting into an MD Derm residency as a DO is actual GOAT status. Gonna need to decide early and pump out publications and show interest in the field/network early on top of absolutely destroying Step 2 and Level 2. Its not uncommon to go to a Derm interview where all the kids on interview day have 260+ Step 1s-it really is that competitive. Regarding DO schools-in the eyes of MD program directors DO school=DO school=DO school=DO school. For the sake of prepping you for boards and being confident in matching I would tier DO programs into 2 categories: Established and new (havent graduated their first class yet). Newer schools should be last resort if you cant get in anywhere else. To name a few, places like CCOM, PCOM, KCU, Rowan, NYCOM OSU and Midwestern are seen as very established. This is @Goro ’s wheelhouse

 

[Achnologiast]

Also, would it be possible to transfer from a DO school to a local MD program(20 min away from home) after a yr or 2?

 

[Deecee2DO]

Also, would it be possible to transfer from a DO school to a local MD program(20 min away from home) after a yr or 2?

DO to MD transfer is extremely uncommon. MD to MD happens on a case by case basis as far as I know but DO to MD is a shot in the dark

 

[8YearsLate]

Cusom I can see getting there after another decade or so

Dude I was just about to say, Where is CUSOM on this list?!

 

[deleted1082375]

Doesn’t matter unless it’s LUCOM, UIWCOM, or BCOM.

these schools are the lowest of the low.

Worth mentioning: if you want to be a kid fondler, go to MSUCOM. That may be a plus for some.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Also, is it possible to get into dermatology going to a DO school? Thanks!

Possible sure, but unless you are one of the top 50 DO students in the entire country it’s not happening.

Also, would it be possible to transfer from a DO school to a local MD program(20 min away from home) after a yr or 2?

No.

 

[Achnologiast]

@AnatomyGrey12 Do you know any DO's that recently matched into derm and the type of stats/connections needed to do so?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Possible sure, but unless you are one of the top 50 DO students in the entire country it’s not happening.

No.

Lol I know a guy going all in for Derm at my school, he killed both USMLE (260+) and COMLEX (700+), so we'll see how that goes. I also know another one with similar stats going all in for neurosurgery. This is a brand new DO school's inaugural class we're talking about, and we already have an early Urology match, so I guess everything is possible.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

@AnatomyGrey12 Do you know any DO's that recently matched into derm and the type of stats/connections needed to do so?

We have a Derm applicant who is likely going to match based on all the interviews they’ve gotten. Number 1 in our class, 240s/270s, 800s/900s on COMLEX and multiple pubs.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I’ve met one guy who matched derm at my school. Literally the best student and best person in his class. Insane app and murdered his auditions.

matched a former DO program. Even at a top 50 MD school, derm is not easy.

 

[Achnologiast]

How hard is the COMLEX in comparison to the USMLE? If you can get ~250 on step 1, best in your DO class, and ~10 pubs do you have a pretty good shot at matching into derm even as a DO?

Looking at the charting report, almost 75% of DO derm applicants matched into derm and the biggest differences seem to be in board scores/research, so does applying for derm as DO really have that much of a disadvantage?

I've only gotten into DO schools and really want to do derm but my MCAT expires this cycle and don't think it's worth to retake the MCAT and apply again for a shot at MD.

 

[Ho0v-man]

How hard is the COMLEX in comparison to the USMLE? If you can get ~250 on step 1, best in your DO class, and ~10 pubs do you have a pretty good shot at matching into derm even as a DO?

Looking at the charting report, almost 75% of DO derm applicants matched into derm and the biggest differences seem to be in board scores/research, so does applying for derm as DO really have that much of a disadvantage?

I've only gotten into DO schools and really want to do derm but my MCAT expires this cycle and don't think it's worth to retake the MCAT and apply again for a shot at MD.

There’s a lot of self selection that goes into that 75%. Another way to look at it is if you’re literally one of the best DO students in the country, you have a 75% chance of matching.

It can absolutely be done. It happens every year. But no one knows how well you’ll do when you start out. If the only field you could ever see yourself doing is derm then you probably should think twice about attending any medical school, MD or DO. The majority of students at any medical school would never be good enough to match derm.

Edit: pre DO students really need to be ok with primary care or they’re going to be miserable.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Looking at the charting report, almost 75% of DO derm applicants matched into derm and the biggest differences seem to be in board scores/research, so does applying for derm as DO really have that much of a disadvantage?

Yes it does. That 75% is people that have self selected into applying to derm, I.e they feel like they are competitive. In other words you can do everything right and still only have 75% chance of matching.

Do not underestimate the difficulty of getting multiple pubs as a DO.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Yes it does. That 75% is people that have self selected into applying to derm, I.e they feel like they are competitive. In other words you can do everything right and still only have 75% chance of matching.

Do not underestimate the difficulty of getting multiple pubs as a DO.

QFT. I busted butt trying to get ANYTHING for 2 years. My only project was finally submitted last month and likely won’t be published until graduation. Only a handful of DO schools do anything to help you publish.

 

[Achnologiast]

I was planning on doing research elsewhere to get those publications. For example, I've been doing research remotely this year and have 3 derm pubs + 1 non-derm pub already and am working on more. I think I can be the top 1-2 students at my DO school b/c I was consistently in the top ~15% of the M1 class at a top 50 MD program (SMP).

And even though its only 75%, there seems to be a big difference (70 pts on COMLEX) between those who matched and unmatched, so isn't it more about board scores/research rather than being DO?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And even though its only 75%, there seems to be a big difference (70 pts on COMLEX) between those who matched and unmatched, so isn't it more about board scores/research rather than being DO?

Do not underestimate the effect the letters DO have on matching the super competitive specialties.