PhD/PsyD To Neuropsychologists: How much neuroscience do you learn in internship and postdoc?

[fellwynd2]

So I'm a current PhD student in clinical psychology who's interested in going into neuropsychology. I have a strong interest in neuroscience, to the point where I considered going into neurology or getting a neuroscience PhD instead; however my love of higher order cognition and behavioral neurology a la Oliver Sacks pushed me towards going into neuropsychology. In general I enjoy my coursework, however I find myself envious of the neuroscience education that people in other fields will get that I will not, as neuroscience is my true core interest. I've been told by my advisor that I will learn neuroscience topics in internship and postdoc, or that I can learn it independently, but I find myself dissatisfied by those answers. So how much neuroscience do you actually get to learn in internship and postdoc as opposed to now? Is it all very clinically based and not basic neuroscience at all? How can I satiate my neuroscience interest in a program that is not heavy on neuroscience? Thank you!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[WisNeuro]

Several neuroscience classes, neurodissection course, and I was in a lab that did eeg and f/MRI work, so I got a good deal of it in grad school. If I were you I would seek out opportunities that are available in your area if possible. Internship and postdoc are not the places to get foundational knowledge bases.

 

[fellwynd2]

Several neuroscience classes, neurodissection course, and I was in a lab that did eeg and f/MRI work, so I got a good deal of it in grad school. If I were you I would seek out opportunities that are available in your area if possible. Internship and postdoc are not the places to get foundational knowledge bases.

So to be clear, those courses were all in grad school, not internship/postdoc? If so, then what kind of neuro training did you get there?

 

[WisNeuro]

So to be clear, those courses were all in grad school, not internship/postdoc? If so, then what kind of neuro training did you get there?

Yes, all in grad school. On internship/postdoc it was mostly seeing cases, brain cuttings, wadas, LTM/pre-surgical unit stuff.

 

[fellwynd2]

Yes, all in grad school. On internship/postdoc it was mostly seeing cases, brain cuttings, wadas, LTM/pre-surgical unit stuff.

Ah ok, I’m going to a pretty small school, so I guess I’m missing out on all the fun stuff. I didn’t realize larger schools got to do that stuff. Should I try to transfer or something? How can I find those sorts of opportunities?

 

[WisNeuro]

Ah ok, I’m going to a pretty small school, so I guess I’m missing out on all the fun stuff. I didn’t realize larger schools got to do that stuff. Should I try to transfer or something? How can I find those sorts of opportunities?

Look to any AMCs or VAs in the area, they may have some opportunities. You could look into Marquette's neurodissection course.

 

[fellwynd2]

Look to any AMCs or VAs in the area, they may have some opportunities. You could look into Marquette's neurodissection course.

What’s an AMC? And what types of opportunities would I be looking for? Do VAs do neuro stuff other than neuropsychological assessment? Sorry for bombarding you with questions!

 

[psych.meout]

Ah ok, I’m going to a pretty small school, so I guess I’m missing out on all the fun stuff. I didn’t realize larger schools got to do that stuff. Should I try to transfer or something? How can I find those sorts of opportunities?

You can't really transfer doctoral programs. You'd have to apply all over again like any other non-student.

What’s an AMC? And what types of opportunities would I be looking for? Do VAs do neuro stuff other than neuropsychological assessment? Sorry for bombarding you with questions!

AMC = Academic Medical Center

Large VAMCs typically have neurology departments like any other AMC. You might be able to do some of the didactics and other stuff that med students and residents due on their neuro rotations but it's no guarantee.

 

[fellwynd2]

You can't really transfer doctoral programs. You'd have to apply all over again like any other non-student.

Ah yeah that’s what I meant. Would this be something worth considering? I’ve heard it’s not worth doing unless there’s a super important reason.

AMC = Academic Medical Center

Large VAMCs typically have neurology departments like any other AMC. You might be able to do some of the didactics and other stuff that med students and residents due on their neuro rotations but it's no guarantee.

My school does have an AMC, but I don’t know if they’d be open to that. No harm in asking though!

 

[PsyDr]

Most of my neuroscience and medical education came in grad school. Fellowship was mostly refinement on writing reports, how to deal with clinical situations, and seeing less common pathologies.

 

[fellwynd2]

Most of my neuroscience and medical education came in grad school. Fellowship was mostly refinement on writing reports, how to deal with clinical situations, and seeing less common pathologies.

Do you think I need to go to another program since I may not be able to get that here? Or should I just teach myself and/or find available opportunities and make do with that?

 

[szymk1sm]

Different programs are set up in different ways --- is there a neuropsychologist within your program (or at the AMC) that can provide some mentorship (even if it's informally)? It's great to take neuroscience courses and learn the basics / underlying mechanisms, but you'll want to supplement that knowledge with application to clinical presentations (which is what the mentor could help with).

Also - focusing your dissertation on cognitive neuroscience may help you bridge these areas - food for thought....

 

[fellwynd2]

Different programs are set up in different ways --- is there a neuropsychologist within your program (or at the AMC) that can provide some mentorship (even if it's informally)? It's great to take neuroscience courses and learn the basics / underlying mechanisms, but you'll want to supplement that knowledge with application to clinical presentations (which is what the mentor could help with).

Also - focusing your dissertation on cognitive neuroscience may help you bridge these areas - food for thought....

My mentor is a neuropsychologist, and I’ll definitely get a good bit of the clinical side of neuropsych. But in terms of neuroscience, we get one cognitive neuroscience class and one clinical neuropsychology class. There’s also a possibility I could be a part of a neuroscience bootcamp and I’m going to look into the Marquette university thing. I just want to be sure I have a real, genuine understanding of neuro stuff by the time I’m done with the program.

 

[jdawg2017]

What is your career goal? If research is a big goal, you could consider writing an F31 NRSA and write in training opportunities with other programs (e.g., the neuroscience bootcamp, outside trainings, etc.) that will let you get these basic neuroscience skills.

Internship and fellowship are not the times to learn the skills. Internship, even at "research-heavy" sites, are clinical by nature. Fellowship can be research, but you need some foundational trainings if you wanted to do certain neuroscience-y things (e.g., imaging analysis).

 

[PsyDr]

Do you think I need to go to another program since I may not be able to get that here? Or should I just teach myself and/or find available opportunities and make do with that?

How would I know? But I would not recommend dropping out and reapplying.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

How would I know? But I would not recommend dropping out and reapplying.

Agreed. You have a neuropsychologist as a mentor, which is probably one of the most important components if the plan is a neuropsych career. It'd be much easier to try to cobble together additional neuroscience courses/training than to leave your program, try to get in somewhere else, and if successful, then basically have to start over. You could also look for internships and fellowships that have more neuroscience resources.

I didn't have much straight neuroscience in my grad program. My mentor was fairly "old school," and so although there were multiple neuropsych courses, it wasn't the type of thing you'd typically get in a program affiliated with an AMC. I did go through brain cuttings on internship and fellowship, as well as medical neuroscience in the latter, which helped round out some of the things I missed in grad school.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I didn't have much straight neuroscience in my grad program. My mentor was fairly "old school," and so although there were multiple neuropsych courses, it wasn't the type of thing you'd typically get in a program affiliated with an AMC. I did go through brain cuttings on internship and fellowship, as well as medical neuroscience in the latter, which helped round out some of the things I missed in grad school.

This was my experience too. I came from an assessment heavy experience, but not specific to neuropsych, so I had to play catch up. The Houston Guidelines have multiple different options for completing training, which was helpful to know, so I focused on internship and fellowship to get in anything I lacked from my first few years.

I was fortunate to have a great mentor on internship (I worked w a mentor in grad school on identifying programs w solid mentorship in neuro). My internship mentor really helped fill in some gaps, mostly a mix of neuroanatomy review and a bunch of research articles. On fellowship (AMC), I cobbled together as many educational opportunities through various departments within the hospital system. We had our required weekly Peds & Adult didactics, but I also did weekly (held at lunch) neurology didactics for 2 years, regularly did brain cutting w. pathology residents, and attended weekly surgery case reviews for tumors and various epilepsy cases. I also did the Marquette course towards the end of my training.

I was the only Psy.D. on internship and fellowship, so I felt added pressure to "prove" I had a solid grasp on all of this stuff. I'm not saying you need to do all of this, instead, I'm sharing it to demonstrate there are multiple opportunities throughout the entire training process to find additional learning opportunities. As mentioned, the Houston Guidelines demonstrate multiple combinations of training options can meet their standards. Definitely don't change programs because that would be a big step back. As long as you aren't already on internship and deciding this, you should still have time to build up your training to be competent.

 

[fellwynd2]

I appreciate everyone’s responses. I think I’ll definitely continue on with my current program and try and find resources on my own now and through my further training. I’m historically not very good at advocating for myself, but now is the time for me to learn!