To make the life change or not

[DVMDream]

Nope, I strongly disagree. There is no reason that a vet cannot donate his/her services if that is a chosen charitable venture. The "profession" should not ever think it can bully a business into setting prices and charging "enough", nor should it bully someone into not making a charitable choice when he/she wants to. If you think that charitably donating work on selected cases devalues veterinary services, I feel badly about how you view life (that charitable acts shouldn't happen because they make you look bad). Is it a bad business decision? I don't think so, but even if it is.....so what? It's that person's business to run in any way he/she likes, and as long as his/her charitable work doesn't cost other employees money (i.e. the boss doesn't deduct it from the staff's pay), then it shouldn't matter to anyone but the business owner. If you don't want to work for a company that makes charitable contributions, you're free to find work elsewhere (just like you would if you didn't like how the business was run for any number of reasons), and you'd have a lot of notice of such charitable work before the company goes bankrupt and closes (which I think is a very, very rare possibility).

Likewise, I see no reason that a vet shouldn't have a free clinic for the pets of those in need......vets have a right to donate their time and money in any way they please, and they don't owe you or any one else the "image" of only doing vet work for money and not for charity.

I never stated in my post that "vets should ONLY do vet work for money and never for charity", I hate it when people put words into my posts that clearly were not there. I clarified for that person why continually giving away services for free can be seen as being a "bad boss"....

Doing work for charity and giving out free service to clients who can't afford things is a very fine line that some people can easily go overboard on. I don't disagree with you. I do think charitable work is a good thing and wouldn't condemn someone for being charitable BUT the person asked how "regularly giving away free services to regular clients and those in financial difficulty" makes a "bad boss", the above are just some ways it can be seen negatively. And it does devalue the cost of our services and what people think of them. If I had a dollar for every client who asked on clinics why we can't do x, y, z for "free" or mentioned that Dr. so and so would do it for "50 bucks", I could pay off my student loans. When other vets make a precedence that something can be made "free" or can be done for dirt cheap, it does put pressure on the rest of the profession as a whole, because clients begin to expect that.

Donating your time and services is one thing, but "regularly" giving away services for free is completely different in my mind.

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[CalliopeDVM]

Doing work for charity and giving out free service to clients who can't afford things is a very fine line that some people can easily go overboard on.......Donating your time and services is one thing, but "regularly" giving away services for free is completely different in my mind.

People can go overboard, but you are in no position to know if they are or aren't. You also aren't in any position to judge whether those regular clients are truly in need or not (you seem to imply they aren't and are just trying to bargain down the price or just want to get something for nothing). Regularly making charitable contributions of services and product may be different in your mind, but the end result is the same: it's not your, nor anyone else's, business what, how, how much, or how often a person chooses to donate his/her time or money. Even if he ran a charitable clinic for those in need and never charged anything at all, it still wouldn't be any of your business and it wouldn't negatively affect his employees or the profession.

(Actually, I've thought of doing exactly that....the idea is brewing in the back of my brain, but setting up a charity so I can both donate myself and accept donations isn't as easy as I thought it would be. I'm still working on the idea.)

 

[DVMDream]

People can go overboard, but you are in no position to know if they are or aren't. You also aren't in any position to judge whether those regular clients are truly in need or not (you seem to imply they aren't and are just trying to bargain down the price or just want to get something for nothing). Regularly making charitable contributions of services and product may be different in your mind, but the end result is the same: it's not your, nor anyone else's, business what, how, how much, or how often a person chooses to donate his/her time or money. Even if he ran a charitable clinic for those in need and never charged anything at all, it still wouldn't be any of your business and it wouldn't negatively affect his employees or the profession.

(Actually, I've thought of doing exactly that....the idea is brewing in the back of my brain, but setting up a charity so I can both donate myself and accept donations isn't as easy as I thought it would be. I'm still working on the idea.)

A charity is different than a business giving away services for free. If that doesn't make sense to you, then I can't further make you understand what I'm trying to say and we're best to just agree to disagree.

 

[DVMDream]

Double post

 

[dyachei]

It was his practice, he chose to show empathy to certain customers. I don't see how this is a bad thing if it's not harming any of the salaried staff.

The implication that vets that charge for their services aren't showing empathy is concerning to me.

It can harm the salaried staff in a few ways.

1) it can devalue the services and may make it so that some of the clients balk when they are charged full price in the future - it sets up an expectation that can be difficult to get away from.
2) if enough services are given away, the clinic loses money. If this happens, it can impact the return that veterinarians are getting for their hard work.


You can volunteer in vet med and have a career/job that is fulfilling in different ways. I don't think anyone is arguing that you should do something you hate. But veterinary medicine can take a huge toll. We have a large number of vets taking their own lives, and there are many reasons it happens. It absolutely shocks me that we have this huge rate of compassion fatigue and suicide and we aren't taking huge steps to stop this. Part of it occurs because our attitudes towards ourselves and to others within our own field are so negative or have unrealistic expectations.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The issue is not having a charitable "Good Samaritan" type of fund. But giving away free services to regular clients? How are they any more deserving than new clients? Are their pets more valuable? That's what rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

A charity is different than a business giving away services for free. If that doesn't make sense to you, then I can't further make you understand what I'm trying to say and we're best to just agree to disagree.

Yes, apparently I don't understand what you're talking about. Just because something is not labelled a "charity" doesn't mean that it can't do charitable work.

 

[VeterinaryStudentK9]

It is a bad business practice and puts pressure onto other staff, including office managers.

There are no office managers, the veterinarian is the partner and runs the branch.

It can (and does) make a business lose income.

In the short run, but the practice had loyal clients who would drive halfway across the city past half a dozen other vet practices because the partner agreed to perform emergency surgery on a beloved family pet who's owners we regular customers but had lost their source of income in the recession. They are now back up on their feet and spend way more than the surgery cost by going out of their way to bring new pets to the practice, their children went there, they come specifically to the location to buy prescription food and recommending us to everyone who will listen. That €400 discount has paid dividends many times over.

It can run a business far enough into the ground that it goes bankrupt and closes which ultimately does harm everyone who was employed.

The business has been open since the 70's, the partner in question has been working there since the late 80's. I assure you it is doing fine.

I understand how much it sucks to not be able to help an animal because their owner doesn't have money, but we can not provide free services to everyone that has a sad story about how difficult their life has been and why they are in a financial funk.

I never said he provided free services to everyone who had a sad story, I said he showed empathy to certain customers. The vet in question was adamant about chasing down clients who were in arrears and making sure the value of the service was fully understood. The free and discounted care was often met with tears of appreciation because he was literally saving the life of a family member.

I understand that free care can be seen to devalue the services provided, but that is on the assumption that the recipient is entitled and ungrateful. If the free care or discounted care is given in delicate situations is can boost the reputation of the vet and gain him lifetime, multi generational loyalty.

Neither of us are right or wrong, an argument can be made for both sides. I fully intend on doing pro-bono work when I am qualified and in a position to do it and I will not feel irresponsible or incompetent when I do.

 

[VeterinaryStudentK9]

Who says you have to get a ****ty job if you don't do vet med? You could get a good job instead. No one is saying that the job you get if you decide not to do vet med will be "****ty".... I mean, it is your choice as to what job you want to get instead, but you don't have to go get a "****ty" job.

But by your logic, all jobs suck the enjoyment out of the work due to the very nature of them being jobs.

 

[VeterinaryStudentK9]

However, if medicine and surgery are your hobby (i.e. you don't need that income to live on) you can easily switch workplaces to a situation that is better and where those other aspects don't overshadow your love for medicine and surgery.

Firstly, in what world can someone dedicate 5-10 years to train to be a vet and not have to rely on it as an income source?

Secondly, there is nothing stoping you easily switching workplaces to a situation that is better and where those other aspects don't overshadow your love for medicine and surgery while relying on it as a career. That's what all of the vets I've worked for have done. One of them for example asks in interviews if the prospective employee would be willing to be on call for emergencies during his two hour lunch break. Those who say no are wished well and sent on their way. Proper Human Resource management and taking the time to find employees who agree with the ethos of the clinic would put an end to a lot of the misery being discussed above.

From my admittedly very narrow and limited experience of the profession, it seems like American veterinary clinics been corrupted by corporations who have sucked the enjoyment and passion out of their employees and are using them as money making vehicles. This is not the professions fault nor is it unique to the veterinary profession. I'm sure the same can be said of the passionate car mechanic being told from head office to use the cheaper oil or the florist who is told to stop making such a variety of arrangements and mass produce the best sellers to increase economies of scale.

Combine this with abusive and frankly predatory third level education cost and I can see where the pressure of finances can destroy one's enjoyment of life.

What I'm trying to say is that the same corporate corruption and college debt are going to be found in all jobs in the US that pay similar salaries. It's not veterinary medicine that sucks, it's the infection of American society by big money.

 

[dyachei]

Many vets in the US don't work in corporate vet med.

If you pursue vet med, even if you switch to another position, you have the debt of becoming a vet to contend with.

I think compassion fatigue is a bigger issue than you realize

 

[VeterinaryStudentK9]

Many vets in the US don't work in corporate vet med.

If you pursue vet med, even if you switch to another position, you have the debt of becoming a vet to contend with.

I think compassion fatigue is a bigger issue than you realize

I concede your point. I was emotionally drained and brought to tears at home working as an assistant. I'm specifically referring to the poster who is claiming that the profession isn't worth getting into because of the negative aspects of high turnover corporate businesses. I'm sure there are plenty of fantastic, best in the world clinics in the States.

 

[dyachei]

I concede your point. I was emotionally drained and brought to tears at home working as an assistant. I'm specifically referring to the poster who is claiming that the profession isn't worth getting into because of the negative aspects of high turnover corporate businesses. I'm sure there are plenty of fantastic, best in the world clinics in the States.

well, corporate practices aren't for everyone (I was in one and it certainly wasn't for me).

The issue, IMO, is that we push ourselves to our limits and sometimes past them on a near-constant basis. We have a lack of understanding for those in the profession that do understand their limits. We (as a profession) berate them and basically tell them that we won't tolerate behavior where they can be mentally healthier.

Is the profession worth it? It's a very personal question. But for some people the answer is certainly yes. For others, it is a resounding no.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Firstly, in what world can someone dedicate 5-10 years to train to be a vet and not have to rely on it as an income source?

Secondly, there is nothing stoping you easily switching workplaces to a situation that is better and where those other aspects don't overshadow your love for medicine and surgery while relying on it as a career. That's what all of the vets I've worked for have done. One of them for example asks in interviews if the prospective employee would be willing to be on call for emergencies during his two hour lunch break. Those who say no are wished well and sent on their way. Proper Human Resource management and taking the time to find employees who agree with the ethos of the clinic would put an end to a lot of the misery being discussed above.

"Easily switching workplaces" ? In this job market? Good luck.

Many graduates have to take what they can get, and that often involves a lot of compromise on environment.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

What I'm trying to say is that the same corporate corruption and college debt are going to be found in all jobs in the US that pay similar salaries. It's not veterinary medicine that sucks, it's the infection of American society by big money.

Are you being serious?

The debt accrued by veterinary students is MASSIVE compared to other professions that pay the same amount in terms of salary.

You're just throwing out buzzwords about an education system and economy that you have barely any experience with to begin with.

 

[VeterinaryStudentK9]

Are you being serious?

The debt accrued by veterinary students is MASSIVE compared to other professions that pay the same amount in terms of salary.

You're just throwing out buzzwords about an education system and economy that you have barely any experience with to begin with.

Fair enough, I stand corrected. I'm just participating here and trying to offer a my perspective which is admittedly (several times over) limited. There is no need for the indignation. As for the buzzword accusation, I do have a B.B.S. from a top University and own my own business which operates on an international scale, I know a little about the economy and how it works.

The problem here is the American education system and professional environment places far more stress on veterinarians than the one I have experience in. European vets don't have massive debt (most study for free, some governments pay the students a small stipend while they study).

It was never my intention to get into an argument with anyone when I set up this account. If you want to tell this woman to run from the profession and never look back, I'll let you do it unhindered.

I set up this account to try and learn how to advance my career prospects, get tips on exams and internships. I didn't set it up to get into a cyclic argument about how futile and depressing the profession has become. I have always been one to focus on the positive and this is not how I want to spend my time on here.

I'm sorry for trying to participate in a conversation that has layers to it that I have not experienced first hand. I'll leave you all to carry on as you were before I interrupted.

 

[dyachei]

Fair enough, I stand corrected. I'm just participating here and trying to offer a my perspective which is admittedly (several times over) limited. There is no need for the indignation. As for the buzzword accusation, I do have a B.B.S. from a top University and own my own business which operates on an international scale, I know a little about the economy and how it works.

The problem here is the American education system and professional environment places far more stress on veterinarians than the one I have experience in. European vets don't have massive debt (most study for free, some governments pay the students a small stipend while they study).

It was never my intention to get into an argument with anyone when I set up this account. If you want to tell this woman to run from the profession and never look back, I'll let you do it unhindered.

I set up this account to try and learn how to advance my career prospects, get tips on exams and internships. I didn't set it up to get into a cyclic argument about how futile and depressing the profession has become. I have always been one to focus on the positive and this is not how I want to spend my time on here.

I'm sorry for trying to participate in a conversation that has layers to it that I have not experienced first hand. I'll leave you all to carry on as you were before I interrupted.

You're welcome to participate.

I did speak to several vet students in Europe. I believe in some of the smaller countries, there are actually larger issues. There are oversupply issues and even with low tuition, they cannot make enough to live.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Fair enough, I stand corrected. I'm just participating here and trying to offer a my perspective which is admittedly (several times over) limited. There is no need for the indignation. As for the buzzword accusation, I do have a B.B.S. from a top University and own my own business which operates on an international scale, I know a little about the economy and how it works.

The problem here is the American education system and professional environment places far more stress on veterinarians than the one I have experience in. European vets don't have massive debt (most study for free, some governments pay the students a small stipend while they study).

It was never my intention to get into an argument with anyone when I set up this account. If you want to tell this woman to run from the profession and never look back, I'll let you do it unhindered.

I set up this account to try and learn how to advance my career prospects, get tips on exams and internships. I didn't set it up to get into a cyclic argument about how futile and depressing the profession has become. I have always been one to focus on the positive and this is not how I want to spend my time on here.

I'm sorry for trying to participate in a conversation that has layers to it that I have not experienced first hand. I'll leave you all to carry on as you were before I interrupted.

We aren't telling her to just run from the profession and never look back. We are posing realistic questions she should ask herself, providing examples of both group and individual experiences about the current state of the profession, and encouraging her to get more experience and think very carefully about if this is what she wants to do.

 

[DVMDream]

But by your logic, all jobs suck the enjoyment out of the work due to the very nature of them being jobs.

Umm, where did I state this? Please quote it because I never stated this.

 

[DVMDream]

There are no office managers, the veterinarian is the partner and runs the branch.



In the short run, but the practice had loyal clients who would drive halfway across the city past half a dozen other vet practices because the partner agreed to perform emergency surgery on a beloved family pet who's owners we regular customers but had lost their source of income in the recession. They are now back up on their feet and spend way more than the surgery cost by going out of their way to bring new pets to the practice, their children went there, they come specifically to the location to buy prescription food and recommending us to everyone who will listen. That €400 discount has paid dividends many times over.



The business has been open since the 70's, the partner in question has been working there since the late 80's. I assure you it is doing fine.



I never said he provided free services to everyone who had a sad story, I said he showed empathy to certain customers. The vet in question was adamant about chasing down clients who were in arrears and making sure the value of the service was fully understood. The free and discounted care was often met with tears of appreciation because he was literally saving the life of a family member.

I understand that free care can be seen to devalue the services provided, but that is on the assumption that the recipient is entitled and ungrateful. If the free care or discounted care is given in delicate situations is can boost the reputation of the vet and gain him lifetime, multi generational loyalty.

Neither of us are right or wrong, an argument can be made for both sides. I fully intend on doing pro-bono work when I am qualified and in a position to do it and I will not feel irresponsible or incompetent when I do.

I'm glad it is working out for this vet, but I was pointing out bigger picture issues with the very small information you gave to start with. I stand by every single point I made. Whether office managers exist or not, it puts strain on other employees too... receptionists, techs and associates. Unless this vet has zero support staff. You have to remember that you are discussing two different economical situations with the US vs. the EU....

I'd hope that vet is providing damn near full benefits to all staff members if he is giving away services. If you state he has as many clients as you claim, then he's probably given away a lot. Maybe it works for him, that's nice. Overall though, it doesn't work. There was a recent article I even read on why giving services away doesn't work and the effects it has. I'll try to find it.

Anyway, I've never stated in this thread that charity work is 100% a bad thing. I've simply given reasons why continually giving away services for free can be bad. To me charity work is not equal to regularly giving away free services. To me they are vastly different.

And for those who think I'm some jerk who'd never do anything for anyone, I just did a full courtesy follow up for someone and explained options for more thorough diagnostics.... on a dog I've never seen before, but other vets in the clinic have.

There is a delicate balance in how you do things or determine what should be done for free, one that can be very easy to go overboard on if people aren't careful.

 

[VeterinaryStudentK9]

We don't need benefits here, days of and maternity leave are very generous and mandated by law and there is free national health care. Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree and move on. It was interesting to hear your point of view DVMDream.

 

[DVMDream]

We don't need benefits here, days of and maternity leave are very generous and mandated by law and there is free national health care. Anyway, we'll just agree to disagree and move on. It was interesting to hear your point of view DVMDream.

That's exactly the point I was making with the different economies between the US and EU. Most people on these forums are from the US and responses will generally reflect US situations. And since I've lived in the UK, I understand how comparing it (or the EU) to the US, is like comparing apples to oranges. They are just different.

 

[battie]

If the answer is yes, which I suspect it is, then you owe it to yourself to spend your limited time on this earth doing something that you actually want to do.

Ask yourself, if you could go back 5 years and start veterinary then, would you do it? If the answer is yes, then what makes you think the answer will be any different 5 years from now?

Couple things here. Just because it's something you want to do, doesn't mean it's feasible. We don't live in a world where dreams come true regularly. Which goes into the next statement.

Just because you liked something 5 years ago doesn't mean you like it now and it certainly doesn't mean you're going to like it 5 years from now. Five years ago, I would have totally gone to vet school in a heart beat (disregarding that I didn't have the prereqs and stuff done). But there is no way I would start vet school five years from today. This was my third application cycle and, before I got my acceptance, I was debating on whether or not I was going to apply again. The process is expensive, school is expensive, and the starting salaries are just getting worse. 19 year old Bats was totally into the whole process, 24 year old Bats is thankful I don't have to go through it again, and 29 year old Bats (had she not been accepted), would have 1) continued to work for her undergrad in current job or 2) joined the family business. There wouldn't be veterinary medicine for me in five years.

The business has been open since the 70's, the partner in question has been working there since the late 80's. I assure you it is doing fine.

From the 40s to the 90s, my great-grandfather and grandfather co-owned a business with 50 stores in 8 states. From '92 to 2016, we dropped from 50 stores to 3. Just because a business has been around a long time with the same owners doesn't mean it'll survive if the owners don't change with the times. My family didn't start adapting until it was way too late. I think that's the point DVMD is trying to say: the economy for vet med is rapidly changing and if people don't start to adapt, they'll sink hard.

Firstly, in what world can someone dedicate 5-10 years to train to be a vet and not have to rely on it as an income source?

That would be up to the individual. There are plenty of people who go through vet school, graduate, and realize they hate the office politics of it and find another profession while doing vet work on the side by volunteering at shelters or something.

As for feeling like getting into arguments, this isn't even half that bad. I would definitely categorize this as a discussion over an argument. That's what we do here cause there's a lot of layers to the profession and a lot of different perspectives.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Yes, not many people are lucky enough to be able to invest that much time and money into a hobby.......which is why I tell those with a passion for it to seriously consider the working realities of being a (clinical) vet, not just the medical and surgical tasks. And if they're considering a US or foreign (to them) vet school where their debt will be >$150K, I actually advise them not to do it.

You're also wrong about corporate practices......most US vets don't work in corporate practices; most work in small 3-4 vet private-owned practices. That may change in major cities in the future, but it's not the way it is now, even in cities.




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[CalliopeDVM]

Umm, where did I state this? Please quote it because I never stated this.

I think it was referring to something I said, but totally misreading what I said. I didn't say any job would be ****ty, just that any job you will have will have elements that range from unpleasant to really annoying. That's why it's called "work".


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