To include or not not to include

[jaja1991]

A while back I took orgo I through a random summer school program. I had previously withdrawn from orgo I lecture, but got an A- in the lab section (at my college). Orgo I at this random summer school program entailed both lab and lecture. For the lecture class I did well, but since the lab was much much harder than I expected, I shat the bed (even after doing well the first time around). Figured it wouldnt be the end of the world if I forgot about this class, and took it again at my school...which I did, and got an A (lecture).

So here is my breakdown... Orgo I/Lab=W/A- (first attempt); Orgo I/Lab, B/C+ (summer school class at different school ((second attempt)); Because my second attempt (B/C+) wasn't great, I retook it a third time (my school allows me to just take the lecture section)... A (most recent attempt).

because I had to take Orgo I 3x, at two different institutions, how bad is it if I don't include second attempt? I know it is dishonest, but I've already told my undergrad health advising comittee that I only took this class 2x. If I add it to AMCAS, I will need to notify my undergrad institution...I fear they will question my integrity/ethics.

Does AMCAS/Medical schools utilize services to check all of the schools I've attended? People have suggest student clearing house, but according to their press release, this is only used for the delivery of electronic transcripts.

Has anyone been in this situation? What are your thoughts? If you ommitted a transcript with a (that you did not get credit for), what happened?

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[aalamruad]

A while back I took orgo I through a random summer school program. I had previously withdrawn from orgo I lecture, but got an A- in the lab section (at my college). Orgo I at this random summer school program entailed both lab and lecture. For the lecture class I did well, but since the lab was much much harder than I expected, I shat the bed (even after doing well the first time around). Figured it wouldnt be the end of the world if I forgot about this class, and took it again at my school...which I did, and got an A (lecture).

So here is my breakdown... Orgo I/Lab=W/A- (first attempt); Orgo I/Lab, B/C+ (summer school class at different school ((second attempt)); Because my second attempt (B/C+) wasn't great, I retook it a third time (my school allows me to just take the lecture section)... A (most recent attempt).

because I had to take Orgo I 3x, at two different institutions, how bad is it if I don't include second attempt? I know it is dishonest, but I've already told my undergrad health advising comittee that I only took this class 2x. If I add it to AMCAS, I will need to notify my undergrad institution...I fear they will question my integrity/ethics.

Does AMCAS/Medical schools utilize services to check all of the schools I've attended? People have suggest student clearing house, but according to their press release, this is only used for the delivery of electronic transcripts.

How bad is it to lie to every medical school about the full extent of your educational attainment? It could get you blackballed from every med school in the country. It could get your acceptance rescinded if you happen to get accepted. And it could probably get you kicked out of med school if your school finds out after you matriculate. Don't be an idiot.

 

[jaja1991]

If AMCAS found out, my application would be delayed until I have that transcript submitted. But I don't believe AMCAS' verification process is super extensive/meticulous of the thousands of applicants it needs to verify.

If medical schools found out (which I doubt because they only perform a criminal background check of its accepted students via Certiphi), I would tell them what I'd say to AMCAS (in the unlikely situation they figure this out): because it was so long ago, and I never transferred it to credit at my school, I hadn't even thought to include it.

So my concern is the effect on how my undergrad comittee would perceive the acknowledged omission when writing my composite recommendation (as I already opted to not send them the transcript from this school)... does it outweigh the very slim chance that AMCAS/medical schools would come across this discrepancy (in which I'd say the same thing as what I would currently tell my undergrad health advising comittee)?

Has anyone been in this situation? What were your thoughts? If you ommitted a transcript with a single class (that you did not get credit for), what happened?

 

[aalamruad]

If AMCAS found out, my application would be delayed until I have that transcript submitted. But I don't believe AMCAS' verification process is super extensive/meticulous of the thousands of applicants it needs to verify.

If medical schools found out (which I doubt because they only perform a criminal background check of its accepted students via Certiphi), I would tell them what I'd say to AMCAS (in the unlikely situation they figure this out): because it was so long ago, and I never transferred it to credit at my school, I hadn't even thought to include it.

So my concern is the effect on how my undergrad comittee would perceive the acknowledged omission when writing my composite recommendation (as I already opted to not send them the transcript from this school)... does it outweigh the very slim chance that AMCAS/medical schools would come across this discrepancy (in which I'd say the same thing as what I would currently tell my undergrad health advising comittee)?

Has anyone been in this situation? What were your thoughts? If you ommitted a transcript with a single class (that you did not get credit for), what happened?

No one here's gonna help you try to cheat your way into med school.

 

[LizzyM]

"I lied to my pre-med committee. I will lie to AMCAS (all the medical schools in the country) when asked if my application is true and complete. If I don't lie to AMCAS, then the pre-med office will find out that I lied to them. If I am caught lying to AMCAS, it won't be a big deal; I'll just say 'oopies, I forgot' and provide my transcript. Has anyone ever lied like this? What happened?"

@jaja1991 You need to come clean to your pre-med committee now. Just say you failed to provide the information on the class you took elsewhere. This is not going to have a major impact on your GPA but the effect it could have on your matriculation to medical school could be enormous.

 

[jaja1991]

I don't care that it will have an effect on my gpa as much as the fact I had omitted it to my pre health committee, whom will send a composite rec (which I am sure this will influence) to every medical school I apply.

Its a ****ty situation that I shouldnt have got myself into in the first place. How do you think the comitte would take me including this additional transcript that is significantly past their deadline of required transcripts (after I didn't include it when they asked for all other transcripts by mid april)?

 

[LizzyM]

It's barely mid-May. Say "oopsie" now; much less risk than having to say it later.

 

[jaja1991]

My first one of the season. If you were to leave out this transcript and later be accepted to a medical school, you would be committing an ethical violation no less than 3 occasions (AMCAS primary, school secondary, acceptance agreement). If your medical school were to find this out, not only could they rescind your acceptance, they could do so any time prior to awarding of your MD. It is my understanding that NSCH can confirm if you have ever attended if you have ever attended any school and now with AAMC/NSCH having an agreement in place, you would have to assume that schools would so during the pre-matriculation phase when they directly confirm your transcripts. While the risk for discovery are likely small, impact if found out would be a ban from AMCAS and no chance of ever earning a US MD degree. Is it worth the risk? What you do with your prehealth committee is another question, but risking this with AMCAS is a huge mistake.

That agreement between NSCH/AMCAS is only in regards to using their platform for etranscript submission, not past enrollment verification...http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/about/media_center/press_releases/files/release_2013-11-06.pdf

 

[Person1345]

Report it and be done. The med school I'll be attending checked my transcripts after my acceptance to make sure what I reported matched AMCAS. You'll be in deep **** if someone found out you omitted this info.

 

[jaja1991]

It's barely mid-May. Say "oopsie" now; much less risk than having to say it later.

True...but I also had to say oopsie (though genuinely I didn't realize it needed to be reported) to not adressing some bull**** institutional action from 7 years ago about a warning for underage drinking... Aren't 2 oopsies~very sketchy (vs. 1 potential oopsy) in the eyes of my undergrad comittee (who will send a compoite rec to every medical school I attend)?

 

[jaja1991]

No one here's gonna help you try to cheat your way into med school.

I agree that cheating into medical school is ****ty as ****. But I can't see how one class-which doesn't have a significant effect on GPA/overall candidacy, would significantly influence my candidacy. So, including/excluding it, should not be the determining facotr for my admission to medical school

 

[Person1345]

True...but I also had to say oopsie (though genuinely I didn't realize it needed to be reported) to not adressing some bull**** institutional action from 7 years ago about a warning for underage drinking... Aren't 2 oopsies~very sketchy (vs. 1 potential oopsy) in the eyes of my undergrad comittee (who will send a compoite rec to every medical school I attend)?

I think you underestimate how "messy" people's apps are... obviously the fewer (or none at all) withdrawals, retakes, etc. the better, but many applicants these days have situations like this. Seriously, I know people who have retaken so many classes. This isn't really an oopsie in the sense that you retook it, but it will be if you don't report it. I'd just send in the transcript from the missing course to the committee. Give a short explanation ("Here is a transcript containing a class I had previously left off inadvertently. I didn't think I could obtain it, but was able to do so. I took this course three times because I didn't feel prepared after doing it the first time at a CC," or whatever ).

 

[jaja1991]

Report it and be done. The med school I'll be attending checked my transcripts after my acceptance to make sure what I reported matched AMCAS. You'll be in deep **** if someone found out you omitted this info.

the transcripts you submitted to amcas, or all available transcripts? I thought most schools did criminal background cheks (via certiphi) oncce accepted

 

[jaja1991]

I think you underestimate how "messy" people's apps are... obviously the fewer (or none at all) withdrawals, retakes, etc. the better, but many applicants these days have situations like this. Seriously, I know people who have retaken so many classes. This isn't really an oopsie in the sense that you retook it, but it will be if you don't report it. I'd just send in the transcript from the missing course to the committee. Give a short explanation ("Here is a transcript containing a class I had previously left off inadvertently. I didn't think I could obtain it, but was able to do so. I took this course three times because I didn't feel prepared after doing it the first time at a CC," or whatever ).

I dont care as much about the number of time I took that class...moreso that I will basiclly have to admit to deceiving my pre-health comittee. I fear those consequences (them painting my candidacy in a ****ty light) might outweigh the slim chance shc00ls become aware i omitted a single course from a random institution

 

[Person1345]

the transcripts you submitted to amcas, or all available transcripts? I thought most schools did criminal background cheks (via certiphi) oncce accepted

They do the check on the transcripts sent to AMCAS. So basically a second check of everything you input into AMCAS. So while they might not be able to see something you didn't include, be so very careful not being forthcoming, even if for a seemingly stupid reason. Also, you're going to have to reenter your coursework into secondary applications. SOME of these secondaries allow you to list your highest grade in a course (i.e. pick the course you want to use to fulfill this required pre-requisite), while others ask for all attempts. This situation, then, relates to your deal exactly.

 

[Person1345]

I dont care as much about the number of time I took that class...moreso that I will basiclly have to admit to deceiving my pre-health comittee. I fear those consequences (them painting my candidacy in a ****ty light) might outweigh the slim chance shc00ls become aware i omitted a single course from a random institution

Is it too late to just send them the transcript? Say, "here is a transcript from my lab retake awhile back." Use few words. They will add it to the pile. You effectively submitted it.

 

[jaja1991]

Is it too late to just send them the transcript? Say, "here is a transcript from my lab retake awhile back." Use few words. They will add it to the pile. You effectively submitted it.

Transcripts were due a month ago unfortunately. I'm sure I could, itd just be very suspect of my character after my institutional on ordeal (see previous post from this thread)

 

[Person1345]

Transcripts were due a month ago unfortunately. I'm sure I could, itd just be very suspect of my character after my institutional on ordeal (see previous post from this thread)

I think you can submit it and be frank by saying you did not understand the AMCAS rules regarding transcripts until this week, and you'd like to amend your file to make it accurate and complete. They can't argue with that. No committee is going to waste time making that a footnote in your letter.

 

[mehc012]

I don't understand why you can't just submit it for AMCAS without saying boo to your premed committee. Problem solved.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But I don't believe AMCAS' verification process is super extensive/meticulous of the thousands of applicants it needs to verify.

Don't believe it at your own peril.

I agree that cheating into medical school is ****ty as ****. But I can't see how one class-which doesn't have a significant effect on GPA/overall candidacy, would significantly influence my candidacy. So, including/excluding it, should not be the determining facotr for my admission to medical school

You aren't getting it. Medical schools won't care what it does to your GPA. If they find out you knowingly lied to them then they see a real character flaw and will have every right to throw you out. You lying will be THE determining factor for them.... Honestly just come clean, the deeper the pit you dig then the farther you have to climb out. You are basically gambling with your future on a hunch that AMCAS might not catch it.

 

[hopefulERdoc251]

I agree that cheating into medical school is ****ty as ****. But I can't see how one class-which doesn't have a significant effect on GPA/overall candidacy, would significantly influence my candidacy. So, including/excluding it, should not be the determining facotr for my admission to medical school

In that case, you should have even more reason to report it rather than hiding it.

 

[LizzyM]

OP has professionalism issues. We can only hope they catch up to him before he harms someone (other than himself) with his lies.

 

[ChrisMack390]

OP to answer your question non-sanctimoniously, there is a database for this stuff and AMCAS or a school can very easily look up everywhere that you attended post-secondary classes.

 

[jaja1991]

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm going to include the class/transcript.

Any thoughts on how I should explain this to my undergrad committee (for not sending it to them in the first-place)?

 

[jaja1991]

And how do you think my health advising committee would view this later submission of my transcript after not including initially?

 

[ChrisMack390]

These seem like questions for your committee. Go to your advisor, tell them you made a mistake, and figure out what to do about it.

 

[mehc012]

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm going to include the class/transcript.

Any thoughts on how I should explain this to my undergrad committee (for not sending it to them in the first-place)?

Why on earth do you have to send it to your undergrad committee? Let them write your letter, and just put this transcript on AMCAS at this point. They're the ones you're going to sign 80,000 forms avowing completeness and honesty to. Your committee likely doesn't gaf and has no need to receive an empty transcript.

You do realize that AMCAS and your premed committee are completely separate processes, right? What one sees has nothing to do with what you submit to the other.

 

[jaja1991]

Why on earth do you have to send it to your undergrad committee? Let them write your letter, and just put this transcript on AMCAS at this point. They're the ones you're going to sign 80,000 forms avowing completeness and honesty to. Your committee likely doesn't gaf and has no need to receive an empty transcript.

You do realize that AMCAS and your premed committee are completely separate processes, right? What one sees has nothing to do with what you submit to the other.

I was under the impression that on AMCAS you sign a release that allows them to exchange mcat scores, id stuff, coursework and school enrollment with your committee. So the only reason why I had considered omitting it on AMCAS was because I already interviewed with my committee and when they asked for my transcripts I didn't send them that one (so now I'd have to tell them I forgot to include it)

 

[jaja1991]

These seem like questions for your committee. Go to your advisor, tell them you made a mistake, and figure out what to do about it.

Thanks. My adviser is part of the committee. So before telling him I need to figure out what I'll say. I could also be overthinking this, and my committee won't be insulted/think it's a big deal since I'm sending it to them before applying (instead of getting caught and having to notify them after the fact)

 

[mehc012]

I was under the impression that on AMCAS you sign a release that allows them to exchange mcat scores, id stuff, coursework and school enrollment with your committee. So the only reason why I had considered omitting it on AMCAS was because I already interviewed with my committee and when they asked for my transcripts I didn't send them that one (so now I'd have to tell them I forgot to include it)

a) You choose whether to sign a release on AMCAS. I didn't release mine to my premed advisor, even though she was wonderful and I had no omissions...just out of anxiety sharing my school list.
b) They would see this after writing your letter, and since they're not evaluating your app, the odds of them digging through and seeing that transcript/caring are quite low.


I'm not saying you should intentionally be dishonest, I'm saying that you shouldn't let your past error (and it was an error) lure you into committing a far, far, greater transgression, especially when there is literally NO reason to. You already messed up and didn't tell your committee. Don't mess up and omit on AMCAS. And, fortunately for you, the two are completely separate and this probably won't bite you (though you really need to work on your professionalism, as a side note.)

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

I think OP should just try hiding it and let us know how it goes. It will be a good data point for our statistics

 

[----x----]

The right answer is to say you made a mistake with transcripts, provide them to your advisor, and move forward.

It doesn't matter what the fallout is - that's the right thing to do. It's not right because it's best for you, it's right on ethical grounds. Value your own integrity above your own success.

 

[jaja1991]

a) You choose whether to sign a release on AMCAS. I didn't release mine to my premed advisor, even though she was wonderful and I had no omissions...just out of anxiety sharing my school list.
b) They would see this after writing your letter, and since they're not evaluating your app, the odds of them digging through and seeing that transcript/caring are quite low.


I'm not saying you should intentionally be dishonest, I'm saying that you shouldn't let your past error (and it was an error) lure you into committing a far, far, greater transgression, especially when there is literally NO reason to. You already messed up and didn't tell your committee. Don't mess up and omit on AMCAS. And, fortunately for you, the two are completely separate and this probably won't bite you (though you really need to work on your professionalism, as a side note.)

But don't I have to sign the release of I want the committee to see my mcat scores?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But don't I have to sign the release of I want the committee to see my mcat scores?

I believe that is different from the release letting them see your while all as AMCAS sees it, but I'm not sure.

 

[jaja1991]

I believe that is different from the release letting them see your while all as AMCAS sees it, but I'm not sure.

So perhaps the mcat release is something I authorize during the mcat/on aamc, whereas the AMCAS release is for everything? Do you think my committee would frown upon me not consenting to the latter release?

 

[jaja1991]

a) You choose whether to sign a release on AMCAS. I didn't release mine to my premed advisor, even though she was wonderful and I had no omissions...just out of anxiety sharing my school list.
b) They would see this after writing your letter, and since they're not evaluating your app, the odds of them digging through and seeing that transcript/caring are quite low.


I'm not saying you should intentionally be dishonest, I'm saying that you shouldn't let your past error (and it was an error) lure you into committing a far, far, greater transgression, especially when there is literally NO reason to. You already messed up and didn't tell your committee. Don't mess up and omit on AMCAS. And, fortunately for you, the two are completely separate and this probably won't bite you (though you really need to work on your professionalism, as a side note.)

I'm definitely going to include it on AMCAS. Are you saying the committee would be notified I didn't consent to releasing my AMCAS information to them only after I submitted my app (and they submit my review letter)? Regardless, wouldn't they be upset if I didn't grant them access to my AMCAS stuff?

 

[mehc012]

I'm definitely going to include it on AMCAS. Are you saying the committee would be notified I didn't consent to releasing my AMCAS information to them only after I submitted my app (and they submit my review letter)? Regardless, wouldn't they be upset if I didn't grant them access to my AMCAS stuff?

I don't know how the committees receive that info, or how much they care. I never heard boo from mine after not granting access. And, besides...do you care if they don't like it? At that point your letter will be done. The committee's input will be over, barring some bizarre circumstance where they end up speaking to adcoms for some other reason (as an example, my advisor contacted some of the schools I was waitlisted at to get updates/nudge them). But even so, you won't have upset them in any way that is pass-on-able. What are they going to say, "my student seemed great, but then they exercised their legal right to keep their application private, so screw them don't admit them," and why would they want to?

You are overthinking this in SO many ways. Just submit the damn transcript on AMCAS, and either click or don't click to let your committee see it. I doubt they really care one way or the other, or are going to take the time to scour your app for a meaningless detail. They just don't have the time for that, and it's no benefit to them to do so. They're not sitting there maliciously laughing and trying to see which students they can bar from the profession. They're busy, probably harassed by neurotic premeds all day long, juggling a bunch of students and probably ignoring your app once they've done their part, which is the letter, until interviews and waitlists start rolling out and they see who they have to give extra support and advice in the end-game.

TL;DR Nobody cares this much about the miniscule details of your life. Nobody is out to get you. Your premed committee is not some moody behemoth waiting for an excuse to demolish you. Nobody cares about your empty transcript, except that you follow the damn rules when it comes time to submit, because that demonstrates your honesty and ability to follow directions. Just do what you need to do, and don't lie to AMCAS.

Tl;DR the TL;DR: Nobody cares don't lie.

 

[ortnakas]

True...but I also had to say oopsie (though genuinely I didn't realize it needed to be reported) to not adressing some bull**** institutional action from 7 years ago about a warning for underage drinking... Aren't 2 oopsies~very sketchy (vs. 1 potential oopsy) in the eyes of my undergrad comittee (who will send a compoite rec to every medical school I attend)?

2 "oopsies" are less sketchy (and less unprofessional) than lying, again, on purpose.

 

[candbgirl]

...I'm sure I could, itd just be very suspect of my character after my institutional on ordeal (see previous post from this thread)

Really? This whole thread is "very suspect of your character".
Why did you even start this thread since you have obviously already decided what you are going to do?



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[jaja1991]

Really? This whole thread is "very suspect of your character".
Why did you even start this thread since you have obviously already decided what you are going to do?



Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I wasn't sure. Let's be real, it's not like I had already submitted AMCAS without this transcript. I was considering it, but I'm not going to omit it.

I started this thread to see what others thought

 

[flossy_p]

Don't do it. A friend of mine overheard faculty at her school talking about a med student who was academically dismissed at his school, now reapplying to different health programs, and lied on his app (either through the academic transcript or what have you).

Faculty's exact words, "I am never going to accept this kid into our program. I do not want to work with a liar and accept someone who will soil the profession".

literally. report everything.