To Attempt to Get a PhD or Not? Student loans....

[KMB411]

Hello!

I joined these boards looking for advice. I'm currently wrapping up my Master's in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. I'm semi considering a PhD but am not sure about many things or what my chances even stand if I could get into a program.

For starters, I bombed my last year of undergraduate. I was getting married, taking double a full time load of course work to finish my Bachelor's because I started college later, and was working full time while planning a wedding and remodeling our future home. After we got married, one of my best friends was diagnosed with cancer and it was a very difficult time. My grades went down and I started getting more B's. In addition, I had an online course with a lack of points available (50 for the entire class) and the teacher didn't set very clear due dates or grade anything. Both myself and ten other students in the class almost failed- not even knowing this until the day before the final and I received my first ever D. I attempted to work with her on this and her solution was that we all could retake the course in summer, with her of course.

Regardless of my GPA then dropping to a 2.89 I did get into the graduate program I wanted. I'm about half way through at the moment. I currently hold a 3.9 GPA and I am in a counseling honor's society as well as a Jesuit honor's society that only selects the top 4% of all Jesuit schools int he world. I've worked very hard and had an opportunity to present at a state counseling conference through a project I did on art therapy and development.

So my first question is, how much of a factor would my undergraduate GPA be? Is it completely out of the question to even think I'd be considered?

Second, I'm facing a dilemma with student loans as well as where I'm at in life. In getting my Master's I will be around 100k in debt by the time I am done. My husband and I had planned that, since we primarily live off his salary and base our main expenses off it anyway, that for the first two or three years after I graduated we would just put all of my salary towards paying off my loans until either it was gone or at least a more reasonable number.

Obviously, if I went on for my PhD working full time probably wouldn't happen. Both programs I interested in are fully funded, so I would not be taking on anymore debt other interest so I'm not concerned about acquiring more loans. Both programs I am interested in as well pay a stipend, I have not been able to find exact figures but roughly around 20k per year. My husband has rationalized in theory that if I went this route we could use that as well for the time being towards loans and by the time I graduated, hopefully I would be making significantly more than I would have with my Master's.

So another question of mine is how reasonable is this? Is there that big of a difference between the two pay levels starting out? I've heard conflicting information that initially they both start out at around the same. When I've done salary estimates online, counselors in my area make on average 40-50k per year where as psychologists are around 79-90k per year.

The loan situation is concerning because when I graduate I will be 27. We both were in no rush to have kids but the idea was to pay off as many loans as possible so we could start around the time I'm 29-30. If I got my PhD I would be roughly around 31 and at that point I would want to have kids right away, but if the loan situation was just as bad I doubt that could happen. Initially I always thought I would just go back to school later after having kids, but a lot of people have said this is more difficult and to just get it done now. Any thoughts on this as well?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted343839]

1. The undergraduate GPA would still be an issue. A terminal master's in counseling does not override your mediocre academic performance in college and is really not the best preparation for doctoral study. You didn't mention whether you've taken the GRE yet, but that would be another hurdle.
2. Most people apply to more than two doctoral programs. Admissions to funded programs are very competitive. Even strong applicants don't always find a fit. Sometimes faculty are not accepting students in a given year. The odds are not in your favor.
3. Why would you want a PhD? If the main motivator is a higher salary potential, that's not a good enough reason. If you really can live on your husband's salary alone, why not spend a few years using the expensive degree you've just earned, pay down your debt, and then re-evaluate your options?

 

[erg923]

Agreed, higher salary is not a good justification for doctoral study. If that's the motivator, go into a sector in which you can maximize the earning potential of a masters level degree in MH-likely the managed healthcare and/or disability insurance industry

 

[kestrelcry]

To elaborate on the salary not being a good reason to get a PhD, I think a key issue people don't consider is opportunity cost. (I didn't fully understand that term until I took an economics class, so definitely Google it unless you are way better informed that I was.)
Maybe you could make more with a PhD, but assuming you could get into a program (I'll let other people handle that.), you will spend five to six years making very, very little money and collecting more interest on your loans, if not more loans, and quite possibly having to make at least one to three expensive moves. If you were to spend those five/six years making a masters level salary, paying off your loans right away, and posssssibly getting a job with loan forgiveness, that's a lot of money. How many years of PhD salary six years down the road would it take to make up for all that money? I'll let someone else do the math on that, but I'm guessing approximately many years.

 

[calimich]

So my first question is, how much of a factor would my undergraduate GPA be? Is it completely out of the question to even think I'd be considered?

So another question of mine is how reasonable is this? Is there that big of a difference between the two pay levels starting out? I've heard conflicting information that initially they both start out at around the same. When I've done salary estimates online, counselors in my area make on average 40-50k per year where as psychologists are around 79-90k per year.

Initially I always thought I would just go back to school later after having kids, but a lot of people have said this is more difficult and to just get it done now. Any thoughts on this as well?

1. Undergraduate GPA is a factor. However, the more time that passes since undergrad combined with demonstrated excellence (in academics or "real world" endeavors) makes the low GPA less of a factor. You'll need to explain the average GPA without making excuses and show that you are prepared for doctoral level study.

2. As others have stated, if a higher salary is a main motivator you'd likely be better off pursuing something other than a PhD in psychology. While the average psychologist earns more than the average counselor, the difference is not so great to make up for lost time, especially if you are focused on private practice. If, on the other hand, you are interested in the opportunities available to a psychologist in addition to practice (assessment, consulting, supervision, teaching, research) a PhD makes more sense.

3. I guess it depends on how much later you're thinking. As a new parent I can not imagine being in a PhD program now. For me, the PhD demanded long hours, focus, the ability to juggle multiple responsibilities, and extended periods of quiet -- all practically non-existent with a 9 month old in the house. Maybe once she's a teenager those things will come back. Actually, on second thought, probably not then either.

We put off having kids until I was done with school, and I'm grateful for it. I think others on here have gone through a program with kids, I don't think I could have done it.

 

[smalltownpsych]

If you want to be a psychologist, it is going to be an extremely difficult and possibly unattainable road and you would need to fully commit to it. In order to accomplish it, geographic flexibility and more than full-time devotion are typically required. You already have a few hurdles to overcome such as low undergrad GPA and minimal or no research experience so overcoming those might tack a few more years on to the trajectory. On the other hand, sometimes it is better to try and maybe even fail than to spend the next 40 years as a mental health counselor wondering what could have been.

 

[singasongofjoy]

I agree with all the advice/thoughts above. And there is definitely no way you could continue to work full time (and probably not even part time outside of your program). I'll also second about kids- while some of my peers had kids while in grad school, they had a spouse that did not work or worked only part time. I can't imagine swinging it otherwise. I barely found time to cook dinner; I can't imagine parenting while in grad school. Some people manage but how is a mystery to me.

I started school a little bit later too (I just graduated and I am 32) and was leery about having even more loans when I graduated because we also want to have kids eventually, and rumor has it they can be pretty expensive. So I wanted to chime in on that bit. I had about 50k of loans from my master's program when I started my PhD program, and also took out loans for the first year of grad school to assist with moving costs. But I had the good fortune of a spouse with a decently paying job (and you mention you similarly have a partner whose job is sufficient to cover your basic living costs). For us, sticking to a (very strict) budget (and housing and cars that undoubtedly made my parents cringe) we were able to pay off the loans by the end of my 3rd year in my doctoral program. Not trying to brag- no one in grad school was envious of my garage-converted-to-rickety-apartment situation. But just to say that, given a partner with a salary, getting the loans paid off during the time you are in school might be doable if you were able to get into a funded program.

Opportunity cost, though, is definitely real- I think the primary area for you to consider at this point should be your motivation for getting a PhD. It's not worth it just for the eventual salary jump- I'm no economist but I imagine there are other ways you could make that up by banking your salary for those 6ish years and investing it wisely- plus, it's too intense and stressful to do only for that reason. You could go to grad school and work 80 hours a week for a degree, or you could have 2 full time jobs working the same and bank the money. Probably about the same amount of stress, but one definitely makes it easier to pay off the loans. Work overtime for a few years in the disability insurance area with a master's degree and you could be making some real nice bucks.

 

[PsyDaVinci]

I've been debating whether or not to comment on this the last day or so, so here's my two+ cents for what it's worth.

It took me a while to figure out how the academic side of things went. Maybe I was a little too stubborn in my early 20s but I jumped right into the field with a master's degree because that's what people who were doing what I wanted to do at the time (prison based therapy) had. I didn't understand issues of licensure and degree inflation at all, I'm not even sure in retrospect if anyone explained that to me or if I was just too arrogant to listen.

I was very lucky to do that for several years in a couple positions and earned up to a decent salary before I was 30. The problem was, though, I had become a one trick pony and had very little opportunity for further advancement. There was a lot more I wanted to do, a lot of which I had to learn on my own because I didn't have the PhD education and training, and even if I did spend the time and money (out of my own pocket) to accomplish that learning I still wouldn't have the credentials needed by licensing bodies, bureaucrats, etc. So after kicking it around for about a year I decided to go back for the PhD. I knew this would mean putting things on hold (e.g. family issues) and having to give up the comfortable lifestyle my career afforded me as well as the pride of accomplishment that went along with it (having come from a lower-middle class background this was no small deal for me and my family). Less than a year after I left my position, which was with a program that was very well respected world-wide, politics came in and ate it up and all my friends and colleagues who were master's level therapists were stuck looking for new jobs. Most of them took a 30-40% pay cut because of the saturation of master-level practitioners and issues of reimbursement at the master level.

So I'm going to come out of this at age 36 with a lot more opportunities. 35 is in about 6 weeks and "still being in school at 35" is a hard pill to swallow (especially since my advisor jacked by internship trajectory last year by causing me to miss my dissertation proposal window). There's other things I want to be doing right now, especially family, but my wife is still in her 20s and started her own graduate program this year so we know it will be a minute. I want a home and security and feeling like I'm where I "should" be at in my 30s. I missed my father's death during this process (because it was semi-sudden), and as an only child I want to have the financial resources to take care of things for my mother if she goes into the hospital for her COPD. I'm practicing my best Acceptance and Commitment Therapy skills these days by acknowledging that I AM WILLING to endure this things because I know it will pass and I know what my goals are and what I value.

So if it's just about the money, then I would agree with much of what is being said here. There is also some risk in terms of focusing only on minimizing short term costs as well. Having a master's degree only in this field means a lot less mobility and less economic security than a PhD. A lot of that is regional-dependent of course (I worked in a rural area for a while where there were barely any LPCs even). I suppose it's a question of what proportion of your life is career going to occupy. Also, 31 is not that old. 31 looks a lot worse when you're under 30, no offense but I went through it and I know a lot of other people who did also. I know people who pulled raising multiple kids as a single parent going through a PhD program. I have family members who have waited until their mid-30s to have kids. It is doable. Long term plans change, but it's not worth sacrificing long term opportunity that you may want for immediate gains.

 

[Wendi22]

Speaking to the money situation, life is unpredictable in a lot of ways. Therefore, I agree with people saying that going just for the salary increase is not a good choice. I have friends with a masters degree making as much as my friends with doctoral degrees. I also have friends with a masters degree who feel stuck and wish they had went on earlier in life. It depends on so many things. As for graduating around 31 with your phd (if I am understanding correctly), I really do not see the issue there. I started my program at 26 and I am certainly not the oldest..or even the second oldest. Having kids at 31 is not uncommon, especially in our field. However, maybe you need to pause and reflect for just a bit. One of the hardest things for me to accept with regards to getting my phd was that life is not going to line up perfectly...there will be sacrifices. I had to just make the most informed/responsible decisions I could and jump in.