Time to unmask?

[DOswag]

The political bias in academic institutions has never been more apparent. Have you seen the stories about DEI questions on the applications?

100%

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[WilcoWorld]

Interesting that a thread about whether or not to continue masking has quickly pivoted to opposing efforts to address diversity and equity.

 

[Apollyon]

Interesting that a thread about whether or not to continue masking has quickly pivoted to opposing efforts to address diversity and equity.

"It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."

 

[RustedFox]

Diversity Equality & Inclusion

"It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."

What's amazing is that the whole idea is to eliminate prejudice and exclusion based upon (ethnicity, background, sexual identity, whatever), and here we are, with people fussing over ethnicity, background, sexual identity, whatever.

Seems only one camp continues to bring it up all the time, which is in direct opposition to their stated goals of having it "not matter".

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

What's amazing is that the whole idea is to eliminate prejudice and exclusion based upon (ethnicity, background, sexual identity, whatever), and here we are, with people fussing over ethnicity, background, sexual identity, whatever.

Seems only one camp continues to bring it up all the time, which is in direct opposition to their stated goals of having it "not matter".

To actually address the premise of your question:

It’s essentially impossible to identify, much less address, a problem if you can’t find some objective measure of it.

For example, how could you address (or disprove) the existence of a gender pay gap if you don’t know gender statistics in the workplace? How would you examine possible ageism if you don’t know workers' ages?

Trying to examine a potential problem with our heads buried in the sand would make us ostriches—and we all know how much you hate ostriches.

 

[RustedFox]

To actually address the premise of your question:

It’s essentially impossible to identify, much less address, a problem if you can’t find some objective measure of it.

For example, how could you address (or disprove) the existence of a gender pay gap if you don’t know gender statistics in the workplace? How would you examine possible ageism if you don’t know workers' ages?

Trying to examine a potential problem with our heads buried in the sand would make us ostriches—and we all know how much you hate ostriches.

O.K.

 

[emergentmd]

I will never understand diversity, inequity, all that political catchphrases.

Compete, whoever has the best scores, does the best job, has the best resume wins.

Its not like the 100m dash has a race factor. Its not like Yao or Steph Curry gets 10% more or less point being an ethnic minority.

One reason I love sports is no one cares what race you are. Production and character is what is most important which is what all hiring should be based on.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

To actually address the premise of your question:

It’s essentially impossible to identify, much less address, a problem if you can’t find some objective measure of it.

For example, how could you address (or disprove) the existence of a gender pay gap if you don’t know gender statistics in the workplace? How would you examine possible ageism if you don’t know workers' ages?

Trying to examine a potential problem with our heads buried in the sand would make us ostriches—and we all know how much you hate ostriches.

There is definitely ageism and a gender wage gap where I work.

There are many older women making siginificantly more than I do, while producing less.

Oh, not the definitions of ageism and gender wage gap you were searching for?

 

[RustedFox]

There is definitely ageism and a gender wage gap where I work.

There are many older women making siginificantly more than I do, while producing less.

Oh, not the definitions of ageism and gender wage gap you were searching for?

See, a gender "gap" indicates that there is a disparity between two sets of individuals.
So, there are two genders then? Checkmate, liberals.

EDIT: I can "identify" as whatever gets me an advantage in any given situation, because it's like, a fluid or something. Lol.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Have you critically appraised him yourself?

Based on your recommendation, I looked into him a bit. Yes, he has impressive credentials, but he also appears to misrepresent the positions that he wants to criticize (i.e.: strawman arguements). He also draws unsupportable conclusions from negative studies by saying that when a 95% confidence interval crosses 1 this proves that the intervention does not work. That is not how it works - when a 95% CI crosses 1 the study has failed to prove benefit, that is not the same as proving futility. As Donald Rumsfeld said, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

A big red flag to me is that he invokes Nazi Germany in his criticisms. This isn't proof of maleficence, of course, but it's strongly correlated with it.

He strikes me as someone looking to profit off his youtube channel, not a font of "uncomfortable truth".

That's my opinion, anyway.

Hahaha! You could have just explained the logical fallacy without quoting the literal worst person for it! What a meme!

 

[doctalaughs]

Department of Defense launches review of equity chief after disparaging posts about White people exposed

The Department of Defense education wing, called DoDEA, responded after Fox News Digital found the diversity chief posted anti-White posts on Twitter.

www.foxnews.com

Ridiculous.

 

[WilcoWorld]

What does DEI have to do with masking?

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

What does DEI have to do with masking?

It’s just an early waveform collapse. Quick, but not unheard of. Let’s get through the rest of the trigger phrases
——————-
Heart of a nurse, brain of a doctor
Crnas are the master of the airway
Physician associates learn twice as much in half the time
Rural pas are the best alternative to abem docs and intubate just as well
They treat the WHOLE patient
naturopaths should have prescription rights
Homeless people are malingerers
Transgender men should compete in womens leagues
Mid level
Poor level provider
Rural fm docs are better than abem docs
Cmgs are the future
Oversupply of abem docs
Acep =cmg shill
Emergent is Scrooge mcduck
Ectopics group will never hire again
Ostrich
Power house residency
In-n-out
Hca
Biden supporters want your money for turtle-friendly-windfarms
Trump supporters are literal nazis
Nazi nazi nazi nazi nazi NAZI

I’m sure I’m missing many, anyone who wants to chip in feel free. It’s where every thread here devolves to.

 

[RustedFox]

It’s just an early waveform collapse. Quick, but not unheard of. Let’s get through the rest of the trigger phrases
——————-
Heart of a nurse, brain of a doctor
Crnas are the master of the airway
Physician associates learn twice as much in half the time
Rural pas are the best alternative to abem docs and intubate just as well
They treat the WHOLE patient
naturopaths should have prescription rights
Homeless people are malingerers
Transgender men should compete in womens leagues
Mid level
Poor level provider
Rural fm docs are better than abem docs
Cmgs are the future
Oversupply of abem docs
Acep =cmg shill
Emergent is Scrooge mcduck
Ectopics group will never hire again
Ostrich
Power house residency
In-n-out
Hca
Biden supporters want your money for turtle-friendly-windfarms
Trump supporters are literal nazis
Nazi nazi nazi nazi nazi NAZI

I’m sure I’m missing many, anyone who wants to chip in feel free. It’s where every thread here devolves to.

Ahem.

Jenny McJennyson.

 

[Ubba]

Time for masking to become optional. If not getting URIs is important enough to you to want to wear a mask the entire working day for the rest of your career, fine. But that's not what I signed up for.

 

[DeadCactus]

DEI initiatives exist precisely because of people who walk into a conversation on public health interventions and start shouting about the unfit advantage Black people and women have in medicine.

 

[Ubba]

DEI initiatives exist precisely because of people who walk into a conversation on public health interventions and start shouting about the unfit advantage Black people and women have in medicine.

Yep, and people eat sugary snacks all day because they have a history of high HbA1cs

 

[rickylafleur]

It’s just an early waveform collapse. Quick, but not unheard of. Let’s get through the rest of the trigger phrases
——————-
Heart of a nurse, brain of a doctor
Crnas are the master of the airway
Physician associates learn twice as much in half the time
Rural pas are the best alternative to abem docs and intubate just as well
They treat the WHOLE patient
naturopaths should have prescription rights
Homeless people are malingerers
Transgender men should compete in womens leagues
Mid level
Poor level provider
Rural fm docs are better than abem docs
Cmgs are the future
Oversupply of abem docs
Acep =cmg shill
Emergent is Scrooge mcduck
Ectopics group will never hire again
Ostrich
Power house residency
In-n-out
Hca
Biden supporters want your money for turtle-friendly-windfarms
Trump supporters are literal nazis
Nazi nazi nazi nazi nazi NAZI

I’m sure I’m missing many, anyone who wants to chip in feel free. It’s where every thread here devolves to.

They took ‘er jerbs

 

[RustedFox]

Time for masking to become optional. If not getting URIs is important enough to you to want to wear a mask the entire working day for the rest of your career, fine. But that's not what I signed up for.

Oh my God....

PERSONAL CHOICE AND RESPONSIBILITY?!

That's anathema in a academic circles.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Oh my God....

PERSONAL CHOICE AND RESPONSIBILITY?!

That's anathema in a academic circles.

Until our society actually makes people take responsibility for their actions, that phrase is meaningless.

 

[DeadCactus]

Yep, and people eat sugary snacks all day because they have a history of high HbA1cs

This would just be arguing that your racist and/or sexist beliefs are because of the DEI programs. Not really the clever retort you think it is.

 

[Ubba]

This would just be arguing that your racist and/or sexist beliefs are because of the DEI programs. Not really the clever retort you think it is.

Love it! You've now impugned everyone who opposes the militant DIE agenda as having "racist and/or sexist beliefs." Good thing that you're not proving their point or anything like that...

 

[RustedFox]

It's almost like different people have different inherent strengths, weaknesses, attributes... and are different. Not better or worse, just different.

I think we need a DEI initiative in the NBA. After all; there aren't enough 5'6'' white guys with short arms and limited coodination and I feel underrepresented.

Oh, that doesn't work?

Hmm. So my NBA dreams are shot... maybe I should... use my innate strengths and skills to my best ability and find a place where they can really be appreciated??

Nah. That's crazytalk.

 

[Ubba]

It's almost like different people have different inherent strengths, weaknesses, attributes... and are different. Not better or worse, just different.

I think we need a DEI initiative in the NBA. After all; there aren't enough 5'6'' white guys with short arms and limited coodination and I feel underrepresented.

Oh, that doesn't work?

Hmm. So my NBA dreams are shot... maybe I should... use my innate strengths and skills to my best ability and find a place where they can really be appreciated??

Nah. That's crazytalk.

Back to the main point of the thread, what we (those of us who don't intend on wearing masks all day for the rest of our careers) can do is take maximum advantage of loosening requirements (e.g., in non-clinical areas).

The AMA and other orgs bemoan the rapid increase in burnout over the course of the COVID era, and I would wager good money that if the mask requirements for non-COVID-confirmed (or -suspected) pts disappeared, morale would skyrocket.

 

[Arcan57]

LSo much this. I simply can’t tolerate N-95s for very long, I don’t know how my colleagues did it. Absolutely suffocating, I pretty much stopped wearing those after getting vaccinated, even before was only wearing when intubating someone.

Concur with the sentiment it’s time to move on and do away with masking.

Low key, it’s pretty awesome not getting a 2 week cold every quarter. And to think I used to look at the people that wiped down their workstation at the beginning of every shift like they were aliens.

 

[Janders]

Back to the main point of the thread, what we (those of us who don't intend on wearing masks all day for the rest of our careers) can do is take maximum advantage of loosening requirements (e.g., in non-clinical areas).

The AMA and other orgs bemoan the rapid increase in burnout over the course of the COVID era, and I would wager good money that if the mask requirements for non-COVID-confirmed (or -suspected) pts disappeared, morale would skyrocket.

Wait, my overwhelming dread and burnout is due to… the comfortable mask I wear all day at work, and lack of repeated respiratory illnesses every 7-9 weeks x infinity, and NOT due to the dropping reimbursement, worsening support from all ancillary and associated services, increasing demand for perfection and mandatory rapid response to all complaints instead of pro-active improvements in our working condition?

So I can take my mask off at work and everything will be better!!! Damn i wish I thought of that a couple years ago…

 

[Janders]

Low key, it’s pretty awesome not getting a 2 week cold every quarter. And to think I used to look at the people that wiped down their workstation at the beginning of every shift like they were aliens.

Yeah I feel like most of the people in this thread work in a different type of ER in a different world than I do.

I’m literally surrounded by febrile hacking people 6ft from my work station for the vast majority of my shifts. I’ve seen MANY people catch covid in the ER (yes, when you hold someone in the ER for two weeks, and monitor their vitals and PCR status, you can sorta surmise where they got sick…). We don’t have a separate charting area with a door and a HEPA filter.

Would I want to fire a doc/PA if they didn’t want to wear a mask while sitting at the computer? No. But I also wouldn’t be jumping up and down to cover their sick call outs. If after 2+ years you haven’t found a semi-comfortable mask, I’m sorta shocked.

Summmary—>
It’s annoying to wear pants, but I wear them to work. Masks are like pants in the ER. You want to be the person wearing the pants.

 

[RustedFox]

You guys are getting URIs every 2-3 months?
THE HELL ARE YOU DOING? You going around sucking on used Yankauers like they're lollipops or something?

 

[bravotwozero]

You guys are getting URIs every 2-3 months?
THE HELL ARE YOU DOING? You going around sucking on used Yankauers like they're lollipops or something?

Right?

It’s much rare for me to come down with URIs…like once every two years, and that’s usually because there was international travel involved.

 

[RustedFox]

Right?

It’s much rare for me to come down with URIs…like once every two years, and that’s usually because there was international travel involved.

Oh, I've had some doozies.
Even saw stars and had a near-syncope at work because the cough was so forceful.

Remarkably enough, it wasn't COVID.

 

[thegenius]

Wait, my overwhelming dread and burnout is due to… the comfortable mask I wear all day at work, and lack of repeated respiratory illnesses every 7-9 weeks x infinity, and NOT due to the dropping reimbursement, worsening support from all ancillary and associated services, increasing demand for perfection and mandatory rapid response to all complaints instead of pro-active improvements in our working condition?

So I can take my mask off at work and everything will be better!!! Damn i wish I thought of that a couple years ago…

I know. Burnout has little to nothing to do with a mask. I was going to bring it up, but it would have sparked yet again another poo-flinging word war on this forum.

 

[RustedFox]

Yeah I feel like most of the people in this thread work in a different type of ER in a different world than I do.

I’m literally surrounded by febrile hacking people 6ft from my work station for the vast majority of my shifts. I’ve seen MANY people catch covid in the ER (yes, when you hold someone in the ER for two weeks, and monitor their vitals and PCR status, you can sorta surmise where they got sick…). We don’t have a separate charting area with a door and a HEPA filter.

Would I want to fire a doc/PA if they didn’t want to wear a mask while sitting at the computer? No. But I also wouldn’t be jumping up and down to cover their sick call outs. If after 2+ years you haven’t found a semi-comfortable mask, I’m sorta shocked.

Summmary—>
It’s annoying to wear pants, but I wear them to work. Masks are like pants in the ER. You want to be the person wearing the pants.

You act like the mask is a Disney Princess Magic Spell that makes everything better and they all lived happily ever after.

Mask or no mask; people are gonna get sick in that situation.

 

[Janders]

You act like the mask is a Disney Princess Magic Spell that makes everything better and they all lived happily ever after.

Mask or no mask; people are gonna get sick in that situation.

Well… it sure seems we get sick a lot less when we wear N95s and the patients (largely) wear masks. Germ theory… crazy huh.

I’m gonna dip from this thread as clearly minds are made up. My position is that that the annoyance of wearing a mask appears to be worth the benefit of avoid respiratory pathogens in a high risk work environment. We can all agree to disagree on this point I suppose.

 

[Ubba]

"We can all agree to disagree on this point I suppose."

Exactly the point. Let those who want to wear masks wear them and let the rest of us suffer the consequences of not wearing them.

(Obviously not talking about pts with obviously communicable URIs and other infectious diseases, but appropriate mandatory precautions for these pts are nothing new)

 

[emergentmd]

Biden just declared the pandemic is over, not that this really mattered except the Dr Jha and Fauci of the world will now flip flop again. Now its time to let people take back their own decision making and let them wear or not.

I am so glad I work at/own our FSER during the pandemic. We actually made decisions that made sense and allowed people to make their own personal decision. During peek covid, I wore N95 to see pts with respiratory illnesses. Surgical masks to non resp pts rooms. Took it off when I went to my computer. So much better than at some hospital ERs when the Covid Nazi would breathe down your neck for taking it off.

Now I wear surgical masks to see pts just b/c I didn't catch a URI for 2 yrs and typically precovid got sick 1-2 times during winter months. Amazing to have personals freedom back.

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

I like the mask. I can make faces of disgust and no one knows.

 

[Rekt]

Were you guys sucking the phlegm out of patients noses through a straw or something? I just don't believe this argument has any bearing. I've had zero difference in amount of "colds" pre and post mask. They just don't work like that.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Were you guys sucking the phlegm out of patients noses through a straw or something? I just don't believe this argument has any bearing. I've had zero difference in amount of "colds" pre and post mask. They just don't work like that.

I've had 1 URI since COVID started and that was when I actually had COVID.

And at least for 2022 patients are back in the office for every sniffle and sore throat like they were pre-COVID.

I don't think I'm washing my hands more than pre-COVID. So maybe its not the masks, but not sure what else it would be.

 

[CoolDoc1729]

I've had 1 URI since COVID started and that was when I actually had COVID.

And at least for 2022 patients are back in the office for every sniffle and sore throat like they were pre-COVID.

I don't think I'm washing my hands more than pre-COVID. So maybe its not the masks, but not sure what else it would be.

I think an underestimated benefit of masks is that they block the hands from going anywhere near the mouth. It definitely helped with my preschoolers even though they were wearing clearly almost useless loose cloth masks lol

 

[DeadCactus]

Love it! You've now impugned everyone who opposes the militant DIE agenda as having "racist and/or sexist beliefs." Good thing that you're not proving their point or anything like that...

Yes, I 100% am going to attribute anyone coming into a mask thread with an unsolicited rant about "militant" DEI work as being motivated by racist and sexist beliefs. If you don't like being held accountable for the views you espouse, don't share them.

 

[Ubba]

Now I wear surgical masks to see pts just b/c I didn't catch a URI for 2 yrs and typically precovid got sick 1-2 times during winter months.

There is also the question of whether this is good in the long-term. We really don't know.

 

[RustedFox]

Yes, I 100% am going to attribute anyone coming into a mask thread with an unsolicited rant about "militant" DEI work as being motivated by racist and sexist beliefs. If you don't like being held accountable for the views you espouse, don't share them.

Anti-racism is racism... you know.

 

[dantt]

What does DEI have to do with masking?

This comment was in response to a poster mentioning they almost got booted out of med school daring to suggest they might not have to mask anymore. The point is academia is more apparently political than ever (others may argue they have always been political). DEI has also become a political issue and some med schools are now using it as a litmus test for admission. I believe this undermines the credibility of physicians. Unfortunate.

 

[Arcan57]

I miss when the transparently bad faith arguments, blatant straw men, and ridiculous false equivalencies were from trolls coming out of the Surgery forum.

 

[Arcan57]

This comment was in response to a poster mentioning they almost got booted out of med school daring to suggest they might not have to mask anymore.

I think that was a crosspost from r/yeahthathappened. Probably was more along the lines of poster wasn't wearing a mask and someone told them to put one on. They were so triggered that they had to post about it online, but had just enough self-awareness to realize what actually happened didn't make them look sympathetic enough.

The point is academia is more apparently political than ever (others may argue they have always been political).

More political than when Jewish and Black communities had to create their own medical schools because they couldn't matriculate into existing medical schools irregardless of prior scholastic achievement? Huh...

DEI has also become a political issue and some med schools are now using it as a litmus test for admission.

If DEI is such a big political issue, why was there a post asking what it was? If your point is that medical schools are starting to reduce the number of openly racist or misogynistic applicants they accept, please walk me down the path where that's a bad thing.

I believe this undermines the credibility of physicians. Unfortunate.

Credibility of physicians among which group(s)? It feels like the groups that share the beliefs you've mentioned haven't exactly been onboard with our (doctors') recommendations for a couple of years now.

 

[DeadCactus]

Anti-racism is racism... you know.

Burying your head in the sand about race while benefiting from centuries of race and gender based policy is your definition of anti-racist? Because many would define anti-[blank]ism as policies and ideas that actively close [blank] based socioeconomic divides.

 

[RustedFox]

Burying your head in the sand about race while benefiting from centuries of race and gender based policy is your definition of anti-racist? Because many would define anti-[blank]ism as policies and ideas that actively close [blank] based socioeconomic divides.

Wow. Are you an archaeologist? Lol.

One of us has acknowledged that "it shouldn't and will not play a role" and is doing so moving forward , the other loves the "but my great-grandaddy was your great grandaddy's slave" argument, which not only is encouched in the item that you seek to eliminate, but also deliberately ignores all measures of merit.

 

[DeadCactus]

Wow. Are you an archaeologist? Lol.

One of us has acknowledged that "it shouldn't and will not play a role" and is doing so moving forward , the other loves the "but my great-grandaddy was your great grandaddy's slave" argument, which not only is encouched in the item that you seek to eliminate, but also deliberately ignores all measures of merit.

So you agree gaps exist but don’t want to actually actively close it? And we’re gonna pretend “merit” is some objective measure and not highly correlated with how rich, White, and male an applicant is? And also dismiss that an underrepresented perspective and life experience is a merit?

 

[RustedFox]

So you agree gaps exist but don’t want to actually actively close it? And we’re gonna pretend “merit” is some objective measure and not highly correlated with how rich, White, and male an applicant is? And also dismiss that an underrepresented perspective and life experience is a merit?

They existed, sure. That's why we're beyond that. We keep telling you this, but you won't let it die. This isn't the sixties. Anyone can apply, few have what it takes. Everyone is different.

Merit is merit, it depends upon the individual and their abilities/content of their character. I wanted to play in the NBA, but I don't have the merit. Where's my rich white male privilege? I feel *breathe in* underrepresented.

An "underrepresented life experience and perspective"?? Show me the question where that one is tested on the MCAT or STEP exams. - And no, don't throw the "but some are just bad test takers" argument out. I wanna play the in NBA, but I'm bad at shooting a basketball.

As the kids say: "Git Gud".

 

[DeadCactus]

They existed, sure. That's why we're beyond that. We keep telling you this, but you won't let it die. This isn't the sixties. Anyone can apply, few have what it takes. Everyone is different.

Merit is merit, it depends upon the individual and their abilities/content of their character. I wanted to play in the NBA, but I don't have the merit. Where's my rich white male privilege? I feel *breathe in* underrepresented.

An "underrepresented life experience and perspective"?? Show me the question where that one is tested on the MCAT or STEP exams. - And no, don't throw the "but some are just bad test takers" argument out. I wanna play the in NBA, but I'm bad at shooting a basketball.

As the kids say: "Git Gud".

Playing basketball is an objective measure of your ability to play basketball. The MCAT, GPA’s, letters of recommendation, academic awards, and extracurriculars are not objective measures of someone’s ability to be a physician and are heavily correlated with race, gender, and income.

Even ignoring that, are you arguing that underpresented groups in medicine are underrepresented because they systematically lack merit? That’s your argument? That you’re not a basketball player because your race is inherently bad at basketball and minority groups are underrepresented in medicine because they are I herrently bad at medicine and screened out by the totally fair and objective selection process that is magically isolated from centuries of blatantly racist policy?