Threatened to be reported to Dean for Professionalism

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The funny thing is, I wasn't even referring to myself. I just didn't feel like going back through the thread to find/quote the people who did mention patterns of behavior, and didn't want to guess. But thanks for the feedback.
Mmhmm sure. You're using this student's unfortunate stupidity just to have a "gotcha" moment with slice of bread. It's tactless, and it's the reason people don't like administrators in the first place. You're hypocrites.

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Absolutely I've seen a few practicing physicians do and say things that are objectionable. You are right that, in the "real world," punishment for unprofessional behavior is not as swift and certain as it can be in medical school. Attendings, assuming they aren't overheard by a patient or someone else with a conscience who pushes the issue, can indeed get away with some pretty egregious behavior.

However, we aren't in school to learn about how we can push the boundaries of acceptable behavior to the edge of the abyss where we get in trouble. We are here to learn the ideal, the standards which we should be striving to uphold when we, in turn, go out into practice. The bar is set high because if it weren't, we'd never learn that is where it really ought to be.

If you can tell, from where you stand now, that cruelty toward patients struggling with mental illness or (often iatrogenic in origin) addiction, then you have the opportunity not to mimic that behavior when it is your turn. Learn from people whose behavior troubles you, about what not to do. Identify role models whose behavior you admire and emulate them.

I witnessed many attendings at my school or affiliated sites say or do things that I would likely get reprimanded for if I tried that as a student. I think that may be part of the reason why medical schools crack down so hard on professionalism stuff. The medical training process tends to erode people's empathy more often than improve it and burnout can lead to doctors doing pretty sketchy things they may well not have done as students or residents. So a student who is already flagrantly unprofessional before training raises a lot of red flags.
 
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Mmhmm sure. You're using this student's unfortunate stupidity just to have a "gotcha" moment with slice of bread. It's tactless, and it's the reason people don't like administrators in the first place. You're hypocrites.

I specifically said I'm not in admin, I'm just plain old faculty. And I admitted that I understand slice's point a lot better after our exchange, even though I still don't fully agree with it and explained why. But I am more than willing to be the designated person you're unreasonably angry at for no good reason.
 
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You failed to noticed the posters who ignored the comments about "tip of the iceberg".

When you actually start teaching, you'll discover this phenomenon.

Hypocrites? Far from it. We take teaching very seriously though.


Mmhmm sure. You're using this student's unfortunate stupidity just to have a "gotcha" moment with slice of bread. It's tactless, and it's the reason people don't like administrators in the first place. You're hypocrites.


To reiterate, tip of the iceberg.

So... Is this the same group as before?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/need-help-bad-team-member-professionalism.1166426/

Seems like you were already on thin ice with them. And if you were serious about those previous comments being forwarded to the dean, it's possible that you were, as others have suggested, "already on the radar" for your administration...
 
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LOL not surprised this **** happens in this new world of SJWs and safe spaces. "Oh noes! he qouted a TVs person! I'M TRIGGERED." Don't feel bad about the **** you did. Just recognize the world around you is surrounded with these clowns and so you have to protect yourself at all costs. When you go to the meeting, you need to a) take full responsibility, b) show remorse and c) state how you'll correct this problem. Trust me. People drink up that kool-aid because they are so self-centered with their better-than-thou attitude just craving to be told they are right.

Learn to treat everything around you as a job and you're a politician. Make a good circle of friends with who you can actually joke about this. The formula that has always worked for me is wait until someone else is a bit "politically incorrect" then slowly work your way until you know you can trust to joke with them honestly. Also, never attempt this with any women. No matter how much any woman tells you she's "just like one of the guys," she's lying. There will be that something that will "offend" her and she will make sure there's hell to pay.

A post as dumb as this one was inevitable in this thread...

SDN in 2016 (and college students in general in 2016): You can't have a situation where you're likely to face consequences for not growing the f-ck up without someone blaming "SJWs" for the problem of your own lack of maturity.
 
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A post as dumb as this one was inevitable in this thread...

SDN in 2016 (and college students in general in 2016): You can't have a situation where you're likely to face consequences for not growing the f-ck up without someone blaming "SJWs" for the problem of your own lack of maturity.
And a condescending post by someone self labeling as oh-so-mature seems inevitable response to my comment. If you're offended by someone quoting the Chapelle show, it's you who are the problem in society.
 
You failed to noticed the posters who ignored the comments about "tip of the iceberg".

When you actually start teaching, you'll discover this phenomenon.

Hypocrites? Far from it. We take teaching very seriously though.





To reiterate, tip of the iceberg.

So... Is this the same group as before?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/need-help-bad-team-member-professionalism.1166426/

Seems like you were already on thin ice with them. And if you were serious about those previous comments being forwarded to the dean, it's possible that you were, as others have suggested, "already on the radar" for your administration...

Oh please, just because an assumption turned out to be right does not mean it wasn't originally an assumption
 
You failed to noticed the posters who ignored the comments about "tip of the iceberg".

When you actually start teaching, you'll discover this phenomenon.

Hypocrites? Far from it. We take teaching very seriously though.





To reiterate, tip of the iceberg.

So... Is this the same group as before?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/need-help-bad-team-member-professionalism.1166426/

Seems like you were already on thin ice with them. And if you were serious about those previous comments being forwarded to the dean, it's possible that you were, as others have suggested, "already on the radar" for your administration...


For the record, I made many improvements on those issues that were addressed to me.
 
For the record, I made many improvements on those issues that were addressed to me.



The point is that establishing a pattern seems to be pretty simple in your case and that's all they need to toss you out.

It's the same thing I'd do to one of my employees.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
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You've obviously never taught medical students for even a microsecond.

What I find interesting is the split between the medical students and the faculty/physicians on this thread. I think it really exemplifies the contrast in experiences. I will say that when I am in the hospital wards for shadowing I try my utmost to be extremely professional and well behaved. However, one cannot ignore that in medical school, there is less of a professional atmosphere. It is in this less professional atmosphere that I do slip up a bit. For faculty, they consider it work, but for medical students we consider the school as a second home rather than a workplace. Sometimes we goof off and make regrettable choices.
 
You failed to noticed the posters who ignored the comments about "tip of the iceberg".

When you actually start teaching, you'll discover this phenomenon.

Hypocrites? Far from it. We take teaching very seriously though.





To reiterate, tip of the iceberg.

So... Is this the same group as before?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/need-help-bad-team-member-professionalism.1166426/

Seems like you were already on thin ice with them. And if you were serious about those previous comments being forwarded to the dean, it's possible that you were, as others have suggested, "already on the radar" for your administration...
I don't care. I was saying it's not a matter of who's right v who's wrong.
 
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And a condescending post by someone self labeling as oh-so-mature seems inevitable response to my comment. If you're offended by someone quoting the Chapelle show, it's you who are the problem in society.
It's really the whole "desecration of human remains" thing that most people are hung up on, not the skit bits. That's really not a SJW position, that's more of a "as a society, most people are highly offended at people playing around with parts of someone that was a father, brother, son, friend, husband, etc" thing.
 
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Pretty sure removing remains from the cadaver lab without permission is a felony in my state.

I believe it was in mine as well. Deliberately removing a body part from lab = instant dismissal. There was an issue (details not needed) going a couple decades back and it's a zero tolerance policy for that now
 
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It's really the whole "desecration of human remains" thing that most people are hung up on, not the skit bits. That's really not a SJW position, that's more of a "as a society, most people are highly offended at people playing around with parts of someone that was a father, brother, son, friend, husband, etc" thing.
I still can't wrap my mind around that part... I think OP is a troll.
 
I believe it was in mine as well. Deliberately removing a body part from lab = instant dismissal. There was an issue (details not needed) going a couple decades back and it's a zero tolerance policy for that now
Yeah, there were actually very strict laws in my state about it. All cadavers had a very specific and strict deidentification protocol, no parts were to leave the lab, no pictures were to be taken, etc. We were very specifically warned that removal of human remains was not merely grounds for dismissal, but illegal, care of the very strict rules the state has for the handling the donation, disposal, and use of human remains. Other violations were merely grounds for dismissal.
 
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I still can't wrap my mind around that part... I think OP is a troll.
I don't think he is. While not a widespread problem, there were a couple students who had their issues with respect that have received a talking to around my school.
 
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I don't think he is. While not a widespread problem, there were a couple students who had their issues with respect that have received a talking to around my school.
OP was looking for trouble then... He might have gotten a pass if his peers were only male. I know people will disagree with that statement, but it's true. Doing something egregious like that in the company of female medical students is beyond stupid.
 
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It's really the whole "desecration of human remains" thing that most people are hung up on, not the skit bits. That's really not a SJW position, that's more of a "as a society, most people are highly offended at people playing around with parts of someone that was a father, brother, son, friend, husband, etc" thing.
I understand, but we also can't live in a society where we treat everything black and white. There is a huge gray zone between say holding up a head and say spitting on a cadaver. This is why I agree that he should be talked to, but the idea of an expulsion is like these high schoolers that get kicked out for drugs when they had tylenol in their backpack.
 
I understand, but we also can't live in a society where we treat everything black and white. There is a huge gray zone between say holding up a head and say spitting on a cadaver. This is why I agree that he should be talked to, but the idea of an expulsion is like these high schoolers that get kicked out for drugs when they had tylenol in their backpack.
Schools take anatomy cadavers seriously. You may not personally agree with the extent of punishment, but I'm sure professionalism in the anatomy lab was discussed extensively. His classmate sounds like a real tool though.

Seriously, they could've just said something to the student directly instead of telling like they're in kindergarten. "I'm teellliiing." Lol. What a joke med students are.
 
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Schools take anatomy cadavers seriously. You may not personally agree with the extent of punishment, but I'm sure professionalism in the anatomy lab was discussed extensively. His classmate sounds like a real tool though.

Seriously, they could've just said something to the student directly instead of telling like they're in kindergarten. "I'm teellliiing." Lol. What a joke med students are.
What I'm betting is that this is one of those "last straw" sort of things. OP has a history of acting unprofessionally and has had issues in the past that nearly got him in serious trouble. His classmate was probably just fed up with his **** and finally decided to let someone in administration know that his prior behavior has not improved.
 
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Schools take anatomy cadavers seriously. You may not personally agree with the extent of punishment, but I'm sure professionalism in the anatomy lab was discussed extensively. His classmate sounds like a real tool though.

Seriously, they could've just said something to the student directly instead of telling like they're in kindergarten. "I'm teellliiing." Lol. What a joke med students are.
I know it is taken very seriously, which is why he should be talked to, but you don't think that the punishment should fit the crime? Unless there's a history with this guy, everyone deserved some kind of second chance if the offense isn't egregious enough to merit expulsion.
 
I know it is taken very seriously, which is why he should be talked to, but you don't think that the punishment should fit the crime? Unless there's a history with this guy, everyone deserved some kind of second chance if the offense isn't egregious enough to merit expulsion.
Yea, I guess that's for the school to decide. The people responding for him to get kicked out aren't his school, so it really doesn't matter what they think. My school wouldn't let a student go for this, but we're a smaller group, and our Dean would police things quietly.
 
What's with this weird fixation on OP's groupmates being female?
 
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What I'm betting is that this is one of those "last straw" sort of things. OP has a history of acting unprofessionally and has had issues in the past that nearly got him in serious trouble. His classmate was probably just fed up with his **** and finally decided to let someone in administration know that his prior behavior has not improved.
Just saw this post. If he really has a history of being unprofessional and has been warned, then yes, his action requires some form of punishment at this point. Depending on the extent of his previous shenanigans, it may or may not merit expulsion. If he can't understand to back off when he's on thin ice, he does become a real liability.
 
What's with this weird fixation on OP's groupmates being female?
Because I think most of us have had the experience of women overreacting to nothing. It may not be this (to you), but you have seen it happen some time. I have never seen a male act in ways I've seen females do. This is why my best advice is that in professional settings you always keep women at arms length minimum.
 
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Because I think most of us have had the experience of women overreacting to nothing. It may not be this (to you), but you have seen it happen some time. I have never seen a male act in ways I've seen females do. This is why my best advice is that in professional settings you always keep women at arms length minimum.
What a strange thing to think o_O

Whatever.
 
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Because I think most of us have had the experience of women overreacting to nothing. It may not be this (to you), but you have seen it happen some time. I have never seen a male act in ways I've seen females do. This is why my best advice is that in professional settings you always keep women at arms length minimum.
Damn, you have no chill. I've seen men get offended over the smallest of things and even resorting to violence. It happens all the time.
 
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I've always had this problem where I struggled to work well with groups. I'm a pretty stoic person and I suppose I can be pretty neurotic/condescending when it comes to around exams.

Well I for one would like to congratulate you on overcoming the issues with stoicism that you discussed in your earlier thread. Seems that you've kicked that bad habit, at least.
 
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A friend of my family is donating her body to medicine; I know of two others who already have (they are deceased). It makes me sick to think that someone would desecrate a body like that.

People donate their corpses with the full knowledge that they will be treated with respect on the cadaver table. One does not simply sign a form and donate, it's a lengthy process to understand what goes into the donation. Medical schools do everything they can to make sure the donator understands it all. Classes, conferences, meetings, etc.

It's hard enough for medical schools to get the cadavers and incidents like this idiot could make it worse for everyone: current students, future students and medical tech companies that require bodies to display new devices during grand rounds and conferences.

While overlooking at lot with my very much younger peers, I would be the 1st one to report this and demand not only an apology but severe and lingering consequences up to an including expulsion. I'm pretty much a hard-@#s when it comes to ethics.

ADHD does not cause this kind of behavior. Untreated Schizophrenia can (laughing at something that is not funny).

Beyond the above, it's just so over the top that someone in medical school would think it appropriate to improv Chapelle in the anatomy lab...
 
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Damn, you have no chill. I've seen men get offended over the smallest of things and even resorting to violence. It happens all the time.
Maybe we live in different worlds, but I have never experienced a man get offended over some trivial thing at work/school and then feel this need to tell on you to the boss/teacher and anyone willing to listen. Then they hold it against you for the rest of their life. A man may get pissed over something stupid and may even try to punch you in the face, but I rather deal with that than the drama instigated by women.
 
Maybe we live in different worlds, but I have never experienced a man get offended over some trivial thing at work/school and then feel this need to tell on you to the boss/teacher and anyone willing to listen. Then they hold it against you for the rest of their life. A man may get pissed over something stupid and may even try to punch you in the face, but I rather deal with that than the drama instigated by women.
Since this is an episode of Fun With Anecdotes ... my friend group recently kicked out a guy who spread rumors, started drama and got dramatically offended at weird little things like being asked to go downstairs when he was being loud. Silly, immature and drama oriented behavior isn't a "woman thing" or whatever you think.
 
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Since this is an episode of Fun With Anecdotes ... my friend group recently kicked out a guy who spread rumors, started drama and got dramatically offended at weird little things like being asked to go downstairs when he was being loud. Silly, immature and drama oriented behavior isn't a "woman thing" or whatever you think.
If this were a bet, I'd put my odds that it is far more likely for a woman to act this way than a man. Your argument is like saying its as easy for blacks to be president as whites because Obama is president.
 
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Well I for one would like to congratulate you on overcoming the issues with stoicism that you discussed in your earlier thread. Seems that you've kicked that bad habit, at least.

Yes I think I did went too far and loosened up a bit too much.
 
If this were a bet, I'd put my odds that it is far more likely for a woman to act this way than a man. Your argument is like saying its as easy for blacks to be president as whites because Obama is president.
Your's is the exact same. Trying to make one anecdotal argument superior to another because you say something clever doesn't actually work.

But yeah. It's probably them typical dramatic women :rolleyes:
 
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If OP signs up for some professionalism classes right now wouldn't it benefit him a great deal, not only personally but in the case of expulsion coming up?
 
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Maybe we live in different worlds, but I have never experienced a man get offended over some trivial thing at work/school and then feel this need to tell on you to the boss/teacher and anyone willing to listen. Then they hold it against you for the rest of their life. A man may get pissed over something stupid and may even try to punch you in the face, but I rather deal with that than the drama instigated by women.

It's because the internet is full of little white knights. SDN is no exception. I think we can all picture the stubby-chunky obnoxious feminist medical student who can't wait to tattle on someone, but is fake friends with everyone.

What a strange thing to think o_O

Whatever.

Damn, you have no chill. I've seen men get offended over the smallest of things and even resorting to violence. It happens all the time.
 
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It's because the internet is full of little white knights. SDN is no exception. I think we can all picture the stubby-chunky obnoxious feminist medical student who can't wait to tattle on someone, but is fake friends with everyone.



This is again why I trust no one. Only my bffs. #nonewfriends


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I think the thing that is most concerning to me about this incident is how it ever happened in the first place. Joking around with cadaver body parts is so far out of the realm of acceptable for the overwhelming majority of people, that it would never even occur to them to behave how the OP did. Somehow, he didn't immediately realize that this behavior was wrong and, based on the posts here, he still doesn't seem to understand the magnitude of his mistake. The concerning part isn't just the unprofessionalism, it's the thought process behind it.

I've done rotations with medical examiners and they probably have the sickest senses of humor in all of medicine. They may joke about how a cadaver's tattoos are ironic based on their manner of death, or remark that someone's dentures obviously weren't strong enough to stop a bullet through the palate, but even they would never, never behave as the OP did. Similarly, every physician has probably judged or vented about difficult patients. Every physician copes with stress somehow, but they don't do this. If the OP believes that all of these offenses are the same, that's another (frankly concerning) error in thinking.

OP, it's in your best interest to take full responsibility for your actions. If you get another chance, you need to be aware that your judgment may need some serious work - seek counseling if necessary, but definitely proceed with caution from here on out.
 
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It's because the internet is full of little white knights. SDN is no exception. I think we can all picture the stubby-chunky obnoxious feminist medical student who can't wait to tattle on someone, but is fake friends with everyone.
This characterization of people who stand up for women online is telling ...
 
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I think the thing that is most concerning to me about this incident is how it ever happened in the first place. Joking around with cadaver body parts is so far out of the realm of acceptable for the overwhelming majority of people, that it would never even occur to them to behave how the OP did. Somehow, he didn't immediately realize that this behavior was wrong and, based on the posts here, he still doesn't seem to understand the magnitude of his mistake. The concerning part isn't just the unprofessionalism, it's the thought process behind it.

I've done rotations with medical examiners and they probably have the sickest senses of humor in all of medicine. They may joke about how a cadaver's tattoos are ironic based on their manner of death, or remark that someone's dentures obviously weren't strong enough to stop a bullet through the palate, but even they would never, never behave as the OP did. Similarly, every physician has probably judged or vented about difficult patients. Every physician copes with stress somehow, but they don't do this. If the OP believes that all of these offenses are the same, that's another (frankly concerning) error in thinking.

OP, it's in your best interest to take full responsibility for your actions. If you get another chance, you need to be aware that your judgment may need some serious work - seek counseling if necessary, but definitely proceed with caution from here on out.



Thank you for the advice. However, I have to disagree that mistreating a patient/patient abuse is less reprehensible than mistreating a cadaver. I think they are both horrible acts.

There is something wrong in medicine when mistreating patients is deemed less offensive than mistreating cadavers.
 
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Thank you for the advice. However, I have to disagree that mistreating a patient/patient abuse is less reprehensible than mistreating a cadaver. I think they are both horrible acts.

There is something wrong in medicine when mistreating patients is deemed less offensive than mistreating cadavers.
What can a cadaver do to defend itself?
 
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Thank you for the advice. However, I have to disagree that mistreating a patient/patient abuse is less reprehensible than mistreating a cadaver. I think they are both horrible acts.

There is something wrong in medicine when mistreating patients is deemed less offensive than mistreating cadavers.

I don't think that venting about patients with colleagues necessarily qualifies as "mistreatment". Venting is a normal part of human life - people vent with friends and colleagues about their spouses, neighbors, or anyone else causing them significant stress. It shouldn't be a frequent thing, but it is a very typical human behavior. If a physician starts degrading a patient for something outside of their control, then I agree that is inappropriate. And if a physician starts screaming at a patient or refuses to provide treatment because they don't like someone's race/religion/etc, that is absolutely reprehensible and that would get most physicians fired (for good reason).

The person who donated their body to medicine was a stranger...who somehow trusted this profession and valued its future physicians enough to donate their most intimate possession to your education. You owe it to that person to respect their gift, their generosity, and the faith they are putting in you. You owe it to their families to use that gift only as it was intended: for your education. Anything less is the height of ingratitude.
 
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It's because the internet is full of little white knights. SDN is no exception. I think we can all picture the stubby-chunky obnoxious feminist medical student who can't wait to tattle on someone, but is fake friends with everyone.

I can guarantee you I'm:

1. Not stubby
2. Not cheeky
3. Not a feminist
4. Not obnoxious

Tattling on stupid stuff is one thing. Desecrating a cadaver, holding up the head like a cannibal, is an abomination.

You believing women are evil is unsettling.

... but I have never experienced a man get offended over some trivial thing
Desecrating a cadaver is not trivial.
 
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I can guarantee you I'm:

1. Not stubby
2. Not cheeky
3. Not a feminist
4. Not obnoxious

Tattling on stupid stuff is one thing. Desecrating a cadaver, holding up the head like a cannibal, is an abomination.

You believing women are evil is unsettling.


Desecrating a cadaver is not trivial.
Women are not evil but are more easily offended. Holding a head up is not desecration. If it were spitting or mutilating, we'd agree.
 
I can guarantee you I'm:

1. Not stubby
2. Not cheeky
3. Not a feminist
4. Not obnoxious

Tattling on stupid stuff is one thing. Desecrating a cadaver, holding up the head like a cannibal, is an abomination.

You believing women are evil is unsettling.


Desecrating a cadaver is not trivial.

I'm wondering how people are imagining how I held up the cadaver's head. I didn't go all Mortal Kombat on it nor did I go Mad Max and screamed like a cannibal.
 
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