Thoughts, what are yours?

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ksiem

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Hey forum guys. I got accepted to my first PT school. Southwest Baptist in Bolivar Missouri. I have a gpa of 3.5 and a gre of 1190. Just in case anyone wants to compare credentials. I have several thoughts, especially after being accepted to the PT program. I believe that the PT profession was a STEAL when it was offered as a bachelors program and even a slightly less STEAL when it was a masters program. Since it is now a three year doctoral program, expensive I might add. Do you all think that the increase in education will effect new job satisfaction reports from the industry (from the new grads who have to go through 7 years of school)? I know previous PTs were very happy with their jobs, but I also think it had to do with the risks/benefits ratio being a bit nicer.

I have been debating taking a year off and taking the elusive organic chemistry I and II (I have already taken orgranic physiology chemistry and aced it). Then, maybe consider pharmacy or optometry school. Two pretty boring professions in my opinion (except for the money making capacity). I guess my question to some of you would be... do you think that the increased education of physical therapists will start to result in higher pay? Or do you think, like one Physical Therapist I talked to, that the stigma "No one will consider PTs as doctors" will hold its' ground. Of course we will never be considered an MD (and rightfully so), but do you think our pay will start to reflect our new titles?

A profession is the biggest investment one can make. Especially if your young and you plan on keeping the same job description. We all have reason to be concerned? What are your thoughts? Has the APTA inflated a once more desirable profession to a status that is sustainable or unsustainable?

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"Or do you think, like one Physical Therapist I talked to, that the stigma "No one will consider PTs as doctors" will hold its' ground. Of course we will never be considered an MD (and rightfully so), but do you think our pay will start to reflect our new titles?"

It seems to me that the tone of your PT friend's statement reveals that he is most probably a PT with a masters, and not a DPT, as it is usually the case that those who have their masters make statements such as this to downplay the DPT degree, a form of denial, while at the same time making their own little small influence on people around them, causing them to think less of the DPT degree, when in reality it is academically and clinically superior to all but the most advanced masters programs.

Also the PT career seems MORE desirable than before because now that we have the DPT degree, we can feel confident that we will be more independent in our clinical decision making, as well as have more influence when it comes to lobbying for direct access and third party payer reimbursement
 
One of the points of the DPT is not for an immediate increase in salary, but to prepare the PT profession for autonomy. If/when PT gains true direct access (covered by medicare and then other insurance providers) PT's salaries will increase in direct proportion to the PT's skill and effort. The DPT is meant to enhance our ability to recognize "other", i.e. things not within our scope of practice. So, Yes, I think salaries will go up. It won't be just because you have the degree though. It will also go up for those with a master's degree.

Do what you love, not just what pays well. Rich and unhappy, is unhappy. Comfortable and happy, is happy. Remember that.
 
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I applied to Southwest Baptist just last month. I have an overall GPA of 3.77 but a low GRE. I have to take Chem II this semester so they're going to count it as a C. What did you think of the school? Do you know if the 2010 class is full? I've also applied to other schools and have an interview at one and haven't heard yet from the other.
 
To myzou: I'm quite sure their not full.. b/c I still haven't even accepted my offer. Also, I haven't even been on campus. I just applied because I live in Northwest Arkansas. How do you like the school? campus? I hope you hear back froms one.

Thanks for the responses guys. I see what your saying Truth Seeker.. I just pray that it will work out that way.. if not, a three year degree would be a gamble for someone who can't be autonomous. Are you a practicing PT? Do you get bored of the routine of knee, hip, back, etc.? How do you deal with that?

PTPassion, you are correct. Many current PTs like to downplay the transistion... because they don't have the DPT. However, I think there is a bit more to it than that. What the UK, New Zealand, and Australia call "Physiotechs," equivalent to a U.S. PT, isn't very prestigous. In addition, probably every other "PT" around the world isn't considered to be prestigous either (not that prestige is the goal, but it does reflect the amount of autonomy and cognitive thinking). Here in the U.S. we have really pushed the PT career. I agree it should be pushed but did we push it so far that it is going to recoil on us? How can anyone be sure we will gain autonomy and these seven years of school will pay off? I'm just being the devil's advocate, what do you think?
 
To myzou: I'm quite sure their not full.. b/c I still haven't even accepted my offer. Also, I haven't even been on campus. I just applied because I live in Northwest Arkansas. How do you like the school? campus? I hope you hear back froms one.

Thanks for the responses guys. I see what your saying Truth Seeker.. I just pray that it will work out that way.. if not, a three year degree would be a gamble for someone who can't be autonomous. Are you a practicing PT? Do you get bored of the routine of knee, hip, back, etc.? How do you deal with that?

PTPassion, you are correct. Many current PTs like to downplay the transistion... because they don't have the DPT. However, I think there is a bit more to it than that. What the UK, New Zealand, and Australia call "Physiotechs," equivalent to a U.S. PT, isn't very prestigous. In addition, probably every other "PT" around the world isn't considered to be prestigous either (not that prestige is the goal, but it does reflect the amount of autonomy and cognitive thinking). Here in the U.S. we have really pushed the PT career. I agree it should be pushed but did we push it so far that it is going to recoil on us? How can anyone be sure we will gain autonomy and these seven years of school will pay off? I'm just being the devil's advocate, what do you think?

Hey if we dont gain autonomy well then...it'll be like its been for a while, and it is still an enjoyable profession in my opinion. But the autonomy is coming, slowly but surely. Already over 36 states have direct acess laws in favor of PT's and third party payers are slowly becoming more influenced by PT demands.
 
To myzou: I'm quite sure their not full.. b/c I still haven't even accepted my offer. Also, I haven't even been on campus. I just applied because I live in Northwest Arkansas. How do you like the school? campus? I hope you hear back froms one.

Thanks for the responses guys. I see what your saying Truth Seeker.. I just pray that it will work out that way.. if not, a three year degree would be a gamble for someone who can't be autonomous. Are you a practicing PT? Do you get bored of the routine of knee, hip, back, etc.? How do you deal with that?

PTPassion, you are correct. Many current PTs like to downplay the transistion... because they don't have the DPT. However, I think there is a bit more to it than that. What the UK, New Zealand, and Australia call "Physiotechs," equivalent to a U.S. PT, isn't very prestigous. In addition, probably every other "PT" around the world isn't considered to be prestigous either (not that prestige is the goal, but it does reflect the amount of autonomy and cognitive thinking). Here in the U.S. we have really pushed the PT career. I agree it should be pushed but did we push it so far that it is going to recoil on us? How can anyone be sure we will gain autonomy and these seven years of school will pay off? I'm just being the devil's advocate, what do you think?

Never boring. 90% of referrals from FP docs anyway so they expect me to more or less do the ortho evals. Problem solving is fun. There is actually quite a bit of autonomy in our profession as it is right now. Even if direct access becomes a realistic practice pattern, 90% of our patients will still probably come from Family Practice or ortho or PM &R docs.

No one can be sure of anything except death and taxes. Med school is not guaranteed a ton of money anymore anyway. i would figure out what you love and do that.
 
I just applied because it's a Missouri school and I live in Missouri. I don't know much about the program or the school. I'm waiting to hear from them. Do they interview or did you just get a notice of accpetance? My first choice is Mizzou of course. I have an interview on the 26th. I also applied to Missouri State. I haven't heard anything from them other than they received my application. Where else did you apply?
 
I also applied at MSU (haven't heard anything really) and schools in Arkansas.

So PTPassion and TruthSeeker, one more question. Say that direct access is granted nationwide for PTs. Since there are many PTs (I'm assuming maybe around 70%) that don't have the DPT, how would that work. The whole argument to gain more autonomy and etc would be dependent on the DPT curriculum and how it teaches PTs to effectively refer and what not... well what about the PTs who haven't had that curriculum? Just a thought, I would guess that could be a major determent. Also, what do you all mean by third party payers... and as opposed to what? first? Thanks.
 
I also applied at MSU (haven't heard anything really) and schools in Arkansas.

So PTPassion and TruthSeeker, one more question. Say that direct access is granted nationwide for PTs. Since there are many PTs (I'm assuming maybe around 70%) that don't have the DPT, how would that work. The whole argument to gain more autonomy and etc would be dependent on the DPT curriculum and how it teaches PTs to effectively refer and what not... well what about the PTs who haven't had that curriculum? Just a thought, I would guess that could be a major determent. Also, what do you all mean by third party payers... and as opposed to what? first? Thanks.


Most states (44 I think) already have direct access in one form or another. It is really granted by their individual state practice acts. This has been the case since before the DPT was conceived let alone implemented. The bachelors and even masters programs were geared (since the mid 80s) for PTs to be able to thoroughly evaluate a patient enough to identify when the patient was outside their scope of practice. The DPT is an effort to strengthen the arguement for global and covered direct access.

The US Army PTs have had direct access and the ability to order imaging for a long long time. There are very very few cases in the books for PT malpractice.

I think what is holding them back is the AMA and the physicians trying to maintain complete authority over all things health related.

In Minnesota, the practice act requires one year of experience before the PT may utilize direct access. There may be similar language in other states as well.

Third party payors just means insurance companies. If they look at the numbers (and I assure you they are) they will arrive at the conclusion that PT is a much more cost effective pathway for treatment of LBP and many other minor, orthopedic type problems when it goes directly to the PT and not through the family practice doc with no increased risk to the patient.

Google this:

"A Comparison of resource use and cost in direct access versus physician referral episodes of physical therapy" Physical Therapy Vol 77 Number 1, January 1997
 
In Minnesota, the practice act requires one year of experience before the PT may utilize direct access. There may be similar language in other states as well.

I used to practice in Virginia and there are stipulations to Direct Access there as well. Essentially a PT must hold either a DPT, a transitionsl DPT, or a Direct Access Certificate:

From the VPTA web site:
The Process to Garner Direct Access Certification Under the New Law:
The regulations state the following about the certification process for direct access: An applicant for certification to provide services to patients without a referral as specified in 54.1-3482.1 shall hold an active, unrestricted license as a physical therapist in Virginia and shall submit evidence satisfactory to the board that he has one of the following qualifications- 1) Completion of a doctor of physical therapy program approved by the APTA (specifically, the Commission on Accreditation in Physical Therapy Education, or 2) Completion of a transitional program in physical therapy as recognized by the board, or 3) at least three years of post-licensure, active practice with evidence of 15 contact hours of continuing education in medical screening or differential diagnosis, including passage of a post-course examination. The required continuing education shall be offered by a provider or sponsor listed as approved by the board… and may be face-to-face or on-line education courses.

As far as I know, VA is one of the few states that require a doctorate for a clinician to practice in a direct access setting - which I think is interesting, since many PT students, or potential PT students are under the impression that a DPT is necessary for direct access. Here's a link to the Direct Access States and any provisions that are applicable. Note that very few mention the degree that a PT must possess in order to practice in this capacity:

http://www.apta.org/AM/Template.cfm...MPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=22369
 
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Nice info guys (truth and jess). I will look into it more later today when I have some time. I was on the APTA website about two days ago looking at the states that have direct access, a lot of the stipulations per state are fairly convoluted. Very few states (like Arizona), have no requirements and Texas has some crazy ones. Some of the descriptions don't sound very direct access to me, what do you all think? I've thought about the Army program because of all the autonomy (prescriping some pain and anti inflammatory medication, ordering imaging, etc.), what do you all think about military PT? Thanks.
 
I think the army program is appealing from a practice standpoint but you could get deployed, that didn't appeal to me.
 
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I thought long and hard about going into the Air Force as a PT after graduation from PT school. But, at the time, I knew that I was going to be getting married in the not too distant future and the frequent moves didn't sound like the greatest situation for starting a family.

Overall, if the military lifestyle works for you, I think that the Baylor progrma would be fantastic.
 
I can understand the concern. It's a tough decision. While the costs of attaining a PT liscence are going up, it looks as if there is a continuous threat of reimbursement going down. Some PTs believe that reimbursement for direct access will actually have a minimal effect on income potential. When you look at the medicare caps along with the scheduled proposed decrease in mediare reimbursement, you start wondering if the capability to pay back the loans is there. I tend to overanalyze and overworry so who knows. It does seem like a leap of faith to a certain degree. There seems to be a whole lot of change going on recently and its hard to ascertain what is going to happen. I'd probably consider Medicine and Pharmacy "safer" paths. I find this a whole lot more interesting as well as an important component to healthcare so I guess just roll with the punches and do what's best for you.
 
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Thanks Lee, I'm glad you feel, at least to a certain degree, like I feel. When would you start PT school if you haven't already?

lol good point JessPT, that info has been making headlines recently. I also think that since the DPT is becoming mainstream at the same time as the audiology, occupational, etc doctoral that it will be somewhat overshadowed. Life professions are tough. I have several friends going to Harding for PA school and the avg. gpa there for accepted students is like 3.4 and one of the ones who got in only had a 1000 gre. Physician Assistant is another one of those nice health care careers. I'm just indecisive about my options, partly because I have so many. When your a senior undergrad and you've taken o-chem, physics, physiology, anatomy, bio, microbio, biochem, exercise phys, mechanics of human movement, etc etc. you realize you can pretty much go anywhere if you work hard enough. It's a tough decision.
 
Do you think you can paste the article?
 
How come? Problem with the link?
 
Not in school yet but am pre-PT. I definitely believe today's education and health culture is making students really think and do some soul searching before they choose a career path. It's a long, expensive path anymore with the emergence of the clinical doctorates.

The prereqs are similar for most health career paths so it makes one explore their options. That's good because ultimately the person needs to pick what fits them best and helps them attain their goals in life. The best thing to do is explore all career paths.

PT seems to have its challenges in the years ahead. I think there is more "selling" of PT than there is in either the Pharm or MD/DO path. Our society values medicine and pharmacy greater than physical therapy. Many people don't have a clear understanding of what PT does. So there seems to be a little bit of an uphill battle in the years ahead. Hopefully the DPT produces more proactive PTs that are dedicated to improving the profession and moving it forward. I like the emphasis on EBP, and hopefully this creates a more consistent product with better results. This provides the opportunity to enhance the credibility of the profession as a whole.

The thing that's unsettling is nobody has any clue what is going to happen in healthcare reform, not even the politicians. What's worse is that I haven't talked to one health care professional that is optimistic about the effort. The good news, if you call it that, is it may not happen because of the democratic party losing its filibuster proof majority. You can make a bet that neither side will attempt to find a pragmatic solution. There too busy playing the politics game. These are the people reforming healthcare. :rolleyes:
 
A Clinical Look at Clinical Doctorates

By WILLIAM L. SILER and DIANE SMITH RANDOLPH
Universities complain about clinical doctorates, arguing that degrees like doctor of pharmacy represent little more than degree creep and are not equivalent to, say, the Ph.D. or M.D. But few institutions have done much more than complain, instead coming to rely on the revenues clinical programs bring them — especially given that many students in those programs pay tuition over a longer period than do students earning bachelor's or master's degrees in the same fields. And clinical doctorates have become increasingly established over time.
The doctor-of-pharmacy degree, created in 1950, has served as a model for clinical doctorates in other fields. The American Council on Education began its justification for the new degree with the fact that the body of pharmacological knowledge was expanding, and mastering it required enough credit hours to merit a doctorate. The ACE also noted that pharmacists were practicing in new settings such as retail chains like Walgreens, and dealing with new diagnoses and new drugs. Finally, the council argued that pharmacology's status among other health-care professions required that its practitioners be called "Doctor."
Since 1950 other professions have created or considered clinical doctorates, such as doctors of audiology, nursing, occupational therapy, and physical therapy. Most of the professions use arguments like those for the pharmacists, with some recent additions: that the clinical doctorate will help practitioners work without requiring referrals by physicians, and it will allow them to charge more for their services.
Those new arguments are intriguing because they suggest that it is the degree, rather than the profession, that commands respect and recognition. In fact, clinical doctorates have so far had little effect on status, compensation, or reimbursement. There is even mounting evidence that the pharmacy doctorate, for example, has led to growing job dissatisfaction as the expectations of new practitioners clash with the realities of American health care — like the fact that insurance companies pay for the kind of service provided, rather than the educational level of the provider.
Some professional organizations have pushed for clinical doctorates even though their members oppose the degrees, on the basis that the doctorates are good for the professions. Established practitioners with only a bachelor's degree may oppose the introduction of a clinical doctorate because they feel their experience makes them more qualified than a new graduate with a higher degree.
One response to objections from practitioners is a transitional degree, which awards them a doctorate for taking a few courses after having worked in the field with the required bachelor's or master's degree. Because transitional degrees are given to people who are already licensed professionals, accrediting bodies generally feel that reviewing the degrees is outside their scope; thus the degrees are seldom evaluated.
On the other hand, professions typically try to ensure the quality of new professionals by requiring them to pass a licensing exam, and by allowing only graduates of accredited programs to take the exam. Many universities have been willing to offer clinical doctorates, in spite of their reservations about the degrees' academic credibility, because they fear if they do not, students in the field will attend other universities that do.
Employers who hire new practitioners often oppose clinical doctorates. The professions frequently explain that position away as a result of corporate greed, claiming that industry is willing to place corporate profits above the quality of patients' care. But employers point out that they are reimbursed for clinical services, not according to the degrees held by their clinicians. Employers also argue that if new holders of clinical doctorates do make more money than graduates a few years ago with lower degrees, that is not because of their increased education, but because of the growing shortage of clinicians — which is being exacerbated by the increased length of time it takes to earn a clinical degree.
So far, few people have investigated the clinical doctorates' implications for the public health of Americans, but it is easy to argue that the degrees could have unintended adverse effects.
First, the explosion of those doctorates threatens research, which is particularly important today with the growing emphasis on evidence-based medicine. The doctorate programs require minimal research from their students, unlike Ph.D. programs, and as colleges and universities scramble to maintain their share of the student market, they push professors' research activities further down on the list of the programs' priorities.
The programs also find themselves scrambling to get many of their faculty members a doctoral degree — any doctoral degree — as quickly as possible. Professors who themselves lack Ph.D.'s and who choose to get clinical doctorates learn little in the process about conducting research or advising students who seek research opportunities.
Second, because clinical doctorates require more time and thus tuition than a bachelor's or master's degree, doctorate programs may reduce the number of new graduates at a time when health-care workers are in increasingly short supply. The market may respond by using assistants and technicians to provide more clinical services, deploying people with higher credentials as supervisors and administrators. That has already begun to happen in the field of pharmacology, and job satisfaction and morale are declining because practitioners have less chance to use their clinical expertise and interact with patients.
Third, the increased time and cost involved may also exacerbate health-care disparities in our society. Few health-care professionals now come from minority populations, whose members are much better represented at the level of technician or aide, and students from those groups may be less able to afford the longer educational programs than are students from more-advantaged populations. If minority students see assistant positions as good employment opportunities that are easier and cheaper to get, we may reinforce the pattern of having minority assistants provide the actual services to patients, while supervisors come from more-privileged backgrounds. And given that students from underserved areas are more likely to return to practice in those areas, decreasing the number of minority students could make health care even less available there.
Professional organizations want to raise the status of their professions; universities want their enrollments to increase, or at least not to decline. Neither side can objectively evaluate clinical doctorates.
At the turn of the last century, the medical profession had the vision and integrity to ask the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching to study medical education, with the goal of strengthening it. The result was the landmark report of the Flexner Commission, which recommended standardization of medical-school programs. It's time to have a similar external study of clinical doctorates, to establish uniform criteria for them and for the professions that offer them.
William L. Siler is associate dean for research and an associate professor of physical therapy, and Diane Smith Randolph is an assistant professor of occupational therapy, at Saint Louis University's Doisy College of Health Sciences.
 
I've read that article before. It is somewhat disturbing to a particular degree because it does seem like the goal is more about status and money than advancing patient care. As a relatively idealistic individual, I would hope the end result produces a better practitioner but realize there is alternate motives as well. I really don't believe it's appropriate for PTs, Pharmacists, Nurse practitioners, or even Physician Assistants (they also have a DPA program) to call themselves "doctors" in the clinical setting. If people are hellbent on being called a doctor in the clinical setting then these paths aren't appropriate. The last thing we want to do to our little old lady down the hall is confuse her about who her doctor is because we wanted to inflate our own ego. I'd further argue that the "doctor" term should still be reserved in the academic setting for the Phds and not the clinical doctorate. The whole "should clinical doctorates be called doctors" has been discussed on these forums already and can be found with the search function. I think there is some laws into effect that vary from state to state so hopefully the patient is being protected.
 
A raise in salary along with raise in knowlege and responsibility is a beautiful thing. If the DPT doesn't accomplish either, and mainly both, then it is a waste of time. The article makes one think a lot about our profession's status. I emailed one of the writers from the article and I got a response. I may post if he/she gives me permission.
 
Usually one of the first things that is said to me when I talk to various PTs in the volunteer setting is that the DPT will not get you any more money than a BsPT or MsPT. This isn't immune to PT though from what I understand. I believe the same thing is going on in Pharmacy. Reason being is any liscenced PT bills the exact same for what they do independent of degree.

As for being a waste of time, I think that it could be a waste of time if it was actually still an option. There isn't too many MsPT programs around anymore. Why would the educational institution want to miss out on a big opportunity to make revenue. This isn't like the real world where if you have a MBA over a Business BS you will have a marketable advantage be able to command a higher salary. I know it sucks but what can you do. If you want to be a PT anymore you have to be a DPT. That's the reality of the allied health professions anymore. Everyone wants to be a doctor. Even if there is limited funds to go around.

There is definitely friction in the PT community whether or not this should have gone to become a "doctoring" profession. One of the places I volunteered at was adamantly against it. Two of the PTs told me I should just go to Med School. I think there is frustration because the APTA is creating a perceived disparity between degrees that doesn't seem to really exist. I actually think some of the old school BsPTs perceived me as a potential threat. So much for recommendation letters from these folks. I thus moved on to another facility. While PTs at other facilities have been more supportive, not one has expressed the desire to pursue a tDPT. Reason being there's no financial incentive to. One expressed concern that the APTA is acting in their own best interest and not that of the profession.

It seems to me that direct access can have as many negative effects as positive. A big positive would be more autonomy. There still exists a reality that some Physicians want to prescribe rehab treatment and treat PTs as techs. This can be a problem because then PTs feel they need to use these outdated modalities like ultrasound in fear that they could lose their jobs. So direct access would help allow PTs to better take control of their profession. Another positive is the possibility to increase revenue thus salary. No one really knows what type of effect this would have though. It might not have that big of an effect. Another positive is that patient choice and competition could occur in the marketplace as PTs compete for patients thus increasing quality. The current referral system depends on the relationship with the referrer which sometimes rewards networking skills over patient care skills.

One negative I see is the possibility for malpractice insurance to increase if PTs do begin treatment while missing "other." If people start getting injured this could be a very bad thing. Given PTs can't order imaging there diagnosis may be lacking. The good news is that direct access does happen currently and there is a successful track record, but this is with a relatively low volume because patients currently have to pay out of pocket without Physician referral. Another potentially bad thing is the concept that PTs may be moving to a position where they are doing more of the managerial, supervisory tasks while the PTAs and aides will be working mostly with the patients. This already happens actually. Most PTs get into this because they enjoy patient interaction. I guess it highly depends on setting.

I'm not a PT so this is all based upon what I've observed and researched. Anybody please feel free to agree, disagree ,or add anything.
 
The only way for the DPT and direct access to actually work is to create a new CPT billing code for direct access initial evaluations that only the DPT can bill. This way the patients are protected knowing that the person doing their evaluation has actually taken courses in pathology, differential diagnosis, and medical imaging and can effectively screen for any non mechanical pathology. Also it gives the DPT a billing advantage over the BSPT thus increasing the salary for the DPT who comes out of school with 100K of debt
 
There is definitely friction in the PT community whether or not this should have gone to become a "doctoring" profession. One of the places I volunteered at was adamantly against it. Two of the PTs told me I should just go to Med School. I think there is frustration because the APTA is creating a perceived disparity between degrees that doesn't seem to really exist. I actually think some of the old school BsPTs perceived me as a potential threat. So much for recommendation letters from these folks. I thus moved on to another facility. While PTs at other facilities have been more supportive, not one has expressed the desire to pursue a tDPT. Reason being there's no financial incentive to. One expressed concern that the APTA is acting in their own best interest and not that of the profession.

I've read that PTs recommend you just go to go Med school if you want to incur this amount of debt. I'm not interested in Med school though.
I've been wondering if I should skip the debt of the DPT and go for sonography. The salary is almost the same, but in my state they make about $10-12K less than PTs. Course I wouldn't have the debt of the DPT.
I like physical therapy, and I'm not sure if I like sonography. Need to shadow someone.
 
The amount of money, if it is enough to be comfortable, should be immaterial. If you like your job, you will be happy. If you make boatloads of money but hate your job, resent the hours, don't get to make decisions etc . . . you will be unhappy.
 
The only way for the DPT and direct access to actually work is to create a new CPT billing code for direct access initial evaluations that only the DPT can bill. This way the patients are protected knowing that the person doing their evaluation has actually taken courses in pathology, differential diagnosis, and medical imaging and can effectively screen for any non mechanical pathology. Also it gives the DPT a billing advantage over the BSPT thus increasing the salary for the DPT who comes out of school with 100K of debt

If you have $100k of debt, maybe you should have chosen a different school. The DPT that comes out of school as a new grad does not know as much as a BSPT that has been practicing for 10 years. (generalization for sure) I don't think that there will ever be a heirarchy of degrees in PT.
97001 is the CPT code for physical therapy evaluation. I don't see that being changed but I could be wrong. In order to use it you must be a licensed PT. No one else can use it to my knowledge.
 
"The amount of money, if it is enough to be comfortable, should be immaterial. If you like your job, you will be happy. If you make boatloads of money but hate your job, resent the hours, don't get to make decisions etc . . . you will be unhappy."

That's true to an extent Truth Seeker, are you a DPT grad or a MSPT grad? The problem is that job satisfaction is also related to financial gain. I guarantee that PT's job satisfaction will decline after students spend 7 years of school to get a doctoral degree that they thought would differentiate them from other health care providers. I remember when I first started looking into PT, I was like wow a clinical doctrate that's amazing. Now I realize it's more of a facade than anything else and was most likely created to raise revenue for the industry. In addition, even if the DPT would have truly gotten the profession further, our country's unforeseen circumstances have hindered that possibility (delaying or preventing it from ever occuring). The PT field is now facing HUGE barriers of entry compared to previous years. I will keep my opinion unless I begin to see some fruits from the industry in result of the DPT. I still may choose the PT profession, I do enjoy it... but I am worried about the future and the risks associated with it.
 
"The DPT that comes out of school as a new grad does not know as much as the BSPT that has been practicing for 10 years"

Truthseeker, not only is this statement exceptionally arrogant it is also completely erroneous. Look a BSPT that has been practicing for 10 years may have more specific knowledge about their limited area of practice because of experience. But that certainly doesn't mean that they have a wider knowledge base than their DPT counterpart. Did they have classes in pathology, pharmacology, medical imaging, histology, or differential diagnosis. Furthermore, do they understand research and EBP. Did they even take any classes in biostatistics or analysis of literature. Yeah anyone can go through the motions of reading a research journal but can they be critical thinkers and pick it apart and understand if its valid and reliable or not. Aren't these the same BSPTs that are hooking up NMES units to the VMO of people that come in with lateral patella tracking problems or heal each one of their patients by waving their magic ultrasound wand for 8 minutes over any pathology that enters their clinic.
 
^ Good point. To bad DPTs don't get paid more. Honestly though, there aren't probably a huge range of BsPTS out there right now? Aren't the majority of them MSPTs? Also 10 years of BsPT experience may make up from some of the degree short comings.
 
"The DPT that comes out of school as a new grad does not know as much as the BSPT that has been practicing for 10 years"

Truthseeker, not only is this statement exceptionally arrogant it is also completely erroneous. Look a BSPT that has been practicing for 10 years may have more specific knowledge about their limited area of practice because of experience. But that certainly doesn't mean that they have a wider knowledge base than their DPT counterpart. Did they have classes in pathology, pharmacology, medical imaging, histology, or differential diagnosis. Furthermore, do they understand research and EBP. Did they even take any classes in biostatistics or analysis of literature. Yeah anyone can go through the motions of reading a research journal but can they be critical thinkers and pick it apart and understand if its valid and reliable or not. Aren't these the same BSPTs that are hooking up NMES units to the VMO of people that come in with lateral patella tracking problems or heal each one of their patients by waving their magic ultrasound wand for 8 minutes over any pathology that enters their clinic.


for the record, MS PT then tDPT after 15 years of experience.

I disagree that it was an arrogant statement. besides, I said it was a generalization. experience almost always trumps education. believe it or not. Yes, they can read journal articles critically, some don't for sure. I think you have to be careful about your attitude. When you start working, you will find out how much you really don't know. If you come in with your shiny new degree you have the foundation to become a good clinician, you probably are not one yet. Some BSPTs work in rural areas where there is no "specific area of practice" so 10 years of experience with all diagnoses is a powerful learning tool. Think about how much you learned in your 24 weeks of clinicals. Now multiply that by 25.

I think you are making assumptions that you cannot assume are true. Yes, many of the older PTs spend a lot of time doing non-evidence based, traditional things (US, massage,hot packs) but some of the older PTs are also some of the leaders of our profession. Yes, many of them have gone on for higher degrees but a degree doesn't make you smarter, it only makes you more credentialled.
 
Look a BSPT that has been practicing for 10 years may have more specific knowledge about their limited area of practice because of experience. But that certainly doesn't mean that they have a wider knowledge base than their DPT counterpart. Did they have classes in pathology, pharmacology, medical imaging, histology, or differential diagnosis. Furthermore, do they understand research and EBP. Did they even take any classes in biostatistics or analysis of literature. Yeah anyone can go through the motions of reading a research journal but can they be critical thinkers and pick it apart and understand if its valid and reliable or not

This is the part of this argument that always makes me shake my head. I'm unsure if this type of erroneous belief stems from what current and potential physical therapy students are told by the PT schools or if it somes from the false assumptions many of us make when we see the word "doctor." Many of the current and potential students seem to think that evidence based practice is only a viable option with the DPT. Where the hell does this come from?

Full disclosure: I have an MSPT degree from Arcadia University and became board certified in orthopaedic physical therapy in 2006.

Will write more when I have more time. Patients to treat and all that...
 
I honestly think that the dissatisfaction level could be a concern for the new DPTs for the simple fact that educational costs are out of control in this country. It's not only a problem with PT though. Its with all graduate degrees.

If a DPT makes it into school and through the entire curriculum before they understand the limitations of the degree then that is a big problem. I do think the schools are selling the doctorate. Education is big business, and there is unlimited funds available to students through loans. This unlimited demand only drives up the prices of education even more. Students don't realize what they are borrowing in their pursuit of the "American Dream" until the bill comes in the mail.

This is a new generation of debt burdened students. This is among pretty much all disciplines. Med school, Dental School, Pharm school, and PA school are all expensive as well. 50k/year tuition isn't unimaginable. In fact it's quite likely. The evolution of the private student loan industry has occurred because there is a clear cut opportunity to prey uninformed students. It is quite likely the next financial bubble that bursts.

Basically private loan industry and educational institutions are banking on all your hard work. It's not about the students, its about the money, and its slowly spiraling out of control. With the high debt, people opt for the 30 year repayment plan. In the process, they end up paying two or three times what they originally owe. Educational costs are no longer based upon the market. It's based upon how much loans you can get to go to school. Because the government guarantees these loans, the lenders don't care about the ability to pay them off. Student loans are not dischargable in bankruptcy. They will follow you to the grave. If you have private loans, even if you died, someone is going to be pressured into picking up the tab. It doesn't help that some government officials receive kickbacks from the private loan industry to keep it successful. Kind of disturbing isn't it.
 
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Good points Lee. Hence the reason I think job satisfaction will be on the decline.

Questions for Truth Seeker: obviously you have a lot of experience and I respect you because of your credentials (since I don't know you as a person). First, did the tDPT that you received teach you anything viable? was it a waste of time? did it increase your salary of marketability by any somewhat significant margin? Aso, for a more personal question, could you give me an idea of your salary (you could pm me if you want). I'm curious what kind of range I could expect from working in the PT field for many years like yourself and with a tDPT. You are one of the few that did get the tDPT and I think thats pretty admirable and shows your dedicated to your profession.
 
Good points Lee. Hence the reason I think job satisfaction will be on the decline.

Questions for Truth Seeker: obviously you have a lot of experience and I respect you because of your credentials (since I don't know you as a person). First, did the tDPT that you received teach you anything viable? was it a waste of time? did it increase your salary of marketability by any somewhat significant margin? Aso, for a more personal question, could you give me an idea of your salary (you could pm me if you want). I'm curious what kind of range I could expect from working in the PT field for many years like yourself and with a tDPT. You are one of the few that did get the tDPT and I think thats pretty admirable and shows your dedicated to your profession.


I found that I didn't really learn a ton more from the tDPT except that it forced me to learn a little better how to find journal articles online. (still hard to find full text articles without a bunch of subscriptions to publishers) I did it in part just to fulfill my CEU requirements. I figured I could get a degree that was what new graduates would have while getting my CEUs. It was a fun experience and as my capstone, I developed a continuing ed course of my own that I plan to present and hopefully gain some additional income from. It did not really affect my salary or probably my marketability vs other PTs, but it didn't hurt either. I am happy where I am and not looking to move. Another thing is that I am in a small town (5500) that has 8 chiropractors, they all introduce themselves as Dr. XX and I don't have to correct my patients when they refer to me as doc or dr. YY. I am sure to tell them that the real doctors work at the local medical clinic though.

My salary is about $100k and I graduated from PT school in 1991. It would have been the same with my MSPT however. Hope that helps.
 
"I think you have to be careful about your attitude. When you start working, you will find out how much you really don't know"

I'm quite aware that there is a lot I dont know. And your right clinical experience will be beneficial and will make me a better PT. I am not an arrogant person and even when I don't agree with what an older BSPT is doing I certainly don't call them out on it, thats not my place.

"Yes, many of the older PT's spend a lot of time doing non-evidence based, traditional things (US, massage, hot packs)

I couldnt agree with you more, and its these older BSPTs and certificate PTs that I see in the clinic doing the same thing over and over and not seeing any positive results and that bothers me. Our patients deserve the best. A lot of the literature is saying that we should be able to get our cervical pain/dysfunction patients better in 6 visits. You aren't going to be able to accomplish this using cold laser or US

Look truthseeker I'm not trying to fight with you, I've read a lot of your posts and I think you are right on alot of the time, all I'm saying is that generally there is a different mindset between people who have been practicing for 30 years and people who have been practicing for 3 years
 
Look truthseeker I'm not trying to fight with you, I've read a lot of your posts and I think you are right on alot of the time, all I'm saying is that generally there is a different mindset between people who have been practicing for 30 years and people who have been practicing for 3 years

I agree with this, you just can't throw the baby out with the bath water. Some of those older PTs (and they are retiring out of practice) have also figured out what works and science hasn't been able to support it yet. There are plenty of clinical questions that have not been asked properly and researched properly yet. The ones that do the same thing without results certainly haven't figured it out and probably won't, but I don't really think that it is a function of BS vs MS vs DPT, but more of a function of the mind of the particular PT.
 
Truth Seeker, I have two more questions. What part of the country do you work (wondering if your salary is so high b/c of east or west coast)? Also are you just 40 hrs/week or do you just work 9-5 mon-fri. Thanks man.
 
Truth Seeker, I have two more questions. What part of the country do you work (wondering if your salary is so high b/c of east or west coast)? Also are you just 40 hrs/week or do you just work 9-5 mon-fri. Thanks man.

I work in rural Minnesota. I am scheduled for 38 hours per week but do additional athletic event coverage in the evenings so I am sure that I average 40 hours per week over the course of the year. My salary is higher than the median because I have been at it for 19 years.
 
Who pays for the athletic events, your work? Or is it on a volunteer basis? So you work 38 paid hours or 38 hours at work and more paid hours outside of work? A simpler question would be what are your total paid hours? 100,000 is quite high for a PT. I know you've had gobs of experience, but I thought PTs capped at like 80k unless they move to a managerial/director type position.
 
Who pays for the athletic events, your work? Or is it on a volunteer basis? So you work 38 paid hours or 38 hours at work and more paid hours outside of work? A simpler question would be what are your total paid hours? 100,000 is quite high for a PT. I know you've had gobs of experience, but I thought PTs capped at like 80k unless they move to a managerial/director type position.

I get paid separately by the school for the athletic event coverage. It is minimal, $25 for a game, $50 for a tournament, sometimes $100 for a section or conference tournament, but it is not much more that what I would get paid at McDonald's but its fun, gets me out in the community and I might get a few more referrals. I become know in the area as the sports med guy.

I am the director of PT but am more of a clinician than a manager. Actually the director of rehab but the title didn't come with a raise. My salary didn't change when I was named rehab director.

There is way more money than that to be made in private practice, but there is much more risk, longer hours, and a lot more stress.
 
I'm just shocked your at 100k.. you really are? How long have you been around that figure and how long have you been at the clinic? Thanks for all the info. One major concern with the field, in my opinion, is the pay cap. However, it doesn't seem you have one.
 
Also, so your community really respects you and your field is prestigous to an extent. It's always nice to have a profession that adds to your respect, right?
 
Truthseeker, Thank you for your information. You've been most helpful to students making big decisions.

Do you know how much a new PT graduate usually starts at? I've read as low as 40K (had a teacher laugh in class once when the students thought they'd be making more than 35K starting pay).
 
starting salary completely depends upon the setting, and the desperation of the employer. In rural MN we have to struggle to find a PT if someone moves away. I started at $30k in 1991. I worked at a sexy sports med clinic in a suburban neighborhood. I was there for 5 years and left at around 40k. got a 15 k raise when I moved to rural because they needed someone badly. it has grown from there. new grads are being hired at or around $30/hour. I have been where I am since 1997.
 
I've heard the starting rate in my little town to be at 50k/year at the hospital. They have had two PT positions open since I started volunteering six months ago. The information was provided by a PTA not a PT so I'm assuming that's correct.
 
Ok all the discussion on debt and salary begs the question, are you still going to pursue the physical therapy profession or consider moving on?

For those that already are PTs, did you incur similar then year debt? I mean $40K ten years ago may equal $60K now. Undergrad and Grad loans could have reached that point. If you did, would you make another career choice today knowing how it affected your standard of living?
 
Ok all the discussion on debt and salary begs the question, are you still going to pursue the physical therapy profession or consider moving on?

For those that already are PTs, did you incur similar then year debt? I mean $40K ten years ago may equal $60K now. Undergrad and Grad loans could have reached that point. If you did, would you make another career choice today knowing how it affected your standard of living?
No I would not. My debt was 25K in 1991. I love my job, and no beeper.
 
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