Thoughts on current employment?

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AVNRT

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Hi all -

Looking for some outside perspective.

I'm an oncologist in a private practice in NJ. I'm about 5 years out of fellowship and I joined my current group after staying on for a couple of years post-training in academia. I decided that the academic environment just wasn't for me, and I'd been seeking greater control and potentially ownership in a large and growing practice.

My base salary after nearly 3 years here is $300k although my real compensation is $72/wRVU, and I'm dished out the difference as a bonus quarterly. I'm on track this year for about 8000wRVUs, and this is about what I reached last year as well. I don't know how this per-RVU compensation compares to what others are seeing but it feels like a lot of money to me. I do work in the hospital essentially every single weekend to generate those numbers.

All would be reasonably well except that my group has just sold out to a private equity backed physician acquisition company. They are now making huge moves (building office buildings, hiring many doctors, acquiring many smaller practices) - which my cynicism tells me is largely to increase book value for an upcoming theoretical sale of the expanded practice in a few years, at which point the PE investors and partners (whom I believe probably all received big windfalls already and may be anticipating another to whatever extent they now have equity in the PE backed company) will cash in again. Most partners are older and close to retirement, as you'd probably expect.

They are talking to me as if I'll make "partner" in a few months -- but I'm not sure what this means practically if the group is now owned by private equity. My hunch is that I'd be a partner in name only, and that my income stands only to decline going forward in the long run as I work for an extra layer of people. Furthermore, the grind looks likely only to increase as they aggressively grow the operation, and I already miss the extra time and attention I'd felt able to give to each patient / encounter while in academia (although there was also plenty not to like about academia).

My wife and I love the idea of moving south, perhaps to TN or SC, for many reasons not necessarily related to work. Which brings me to my question. Is it likely that I'll be able to make a comparable amount of money there, in the current market? I'd hate to make a big move only to start over as a lowly associate making much less money than I am now. I've had a difficult time determining what type of opportinities are really out there -- except that a Google search reveals a few listings in the range of $400-450k (the few which make any mention of salary), which if typical would fit the bill pretty well for me even if it's a slight pay cut. It has also occurred to me that I'm likely to end up an employee in the long run regardless of what I choose to do, practice trends being what they are -- but if all else is equal and my current deal is not a particularly good one, we'd rather not be in NJ.

Thanks in advance for any insight and/or opinions..

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I’m not an attending yet but to clarify do you make 300k + 72/RVU or do you make 72/RVU total?
 
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72/RVU total.
I’m still in fellowship so hopefully others will chime in but every part of that deal sounds like a ripoff to me with the caveat that I am from the South myself.

On the plus side... you’re probably making your company so much money that they may not even try to lower your pay to slice another layer of people in on the action.
 
I’m still in fellowship so hopefully others will chime in but every part of that deal sounds like a ripoff to me with the caveat that I am from the South myself.

On the plus side... you’re probably making your company so much money that they may not even try to lower your pay to slice another layer of people in on the action.

Thank you. You are correct -- they haven't tried to lower my pay. On the contrary they gave me the raise to 72/RVU, unsolicited, about 6mos ago -- I'd been making 63/RVU for the couple of years prior.

It occurs to me that they really need my productivity to show these investors. My problem is in valuing my own services fairly -- I started in academics at $200k and have failed to raise my expectations along with the times and setting.

Being easily impressed with a salary seems to be one way in which to be taken advantage of. Another is obviously to seek no contractual guarantees against your practice being sold out from under you while you're still an associate.
 
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8000 wRVUs is roughly the 90th %ile for oncologists on the opposite side of the country (I haven't seen the East Coast #s), so whatever you're doing now, you're doing well.

I will tell you that you could come work for my group and have a base of just under $400K for meeting 25th%ile wRVUs (~4100). If you were as productive in my group as you are now, you'd be making >200K/y more than you are now (and we're not exactly well known for great compensation).
 
8000 wRVUs is roughly the 90th %ile for oncologists on the opposite side of the country (I haven't seen the East Coast #s), so whatever you're doing now, you're doing well.

I will tell you that you could come work for my group and have a base of just under $400K for meeting 25th%ile wRVUs (~4100). If you were as productive in my group as you are now, you'd be making >200K/y more than you are now (and we're not exactly well known for great compensation).
You need a cardiologist? Asking for a friend... (that friend is me)
 
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8000 wRVUs is roughly the 90th %ile for oncologists on the opposite side of the country (I haven't seen the East Coast #s), so whatever you're doing now, you're doing well.

I will tell you that you could come work for my group and have a base of just under $400K for meeting 25th%ile wRVUs (~4100). If you were as productive in my group as you are now, you'd be making >200K/y more than you are now (and we're not exactly well known for great compensation).
Thanks for the input.
Your comment seems to support what I've suspected, i.e. that I could do as well elsewhere right away, without a long lead-in period of making just $250k or thereabouts.

Taking into consideration income and property taxes in NJ, malpractice insurance, cost of living, saturation of the market in my area of the state etc ... Logic would have it that I might even do better.

For anyone wondering about my screen name, I apparently thought 12 years ago that I'd be going into cardiology
 
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The differences across the country are insane. We are at $115 per rvu in the south. Just went up from $110.25.
 
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How the hell do you guys make 110 per RVU while some specialties make 50 or 60??
 
Think of us like a procedural specialty but the procedure is putting in chemo orders
I still don’t understand though like procedures generate you more RVU but also on top of it you make more per RVU so it’s like a crazy double win the FM doc has no chance lol
 
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Does anyone know typical $ per RVU for the North East & Mid Atlantic ?
@AVNRT: Is $72/RVU considered fair around your area?
 
I still don’t understand though like procedures generate you more RVU but also on top of it you make more per RVU so it’s like a crazy double win the FM doc has no chance lol
I don’t think we generate extra RVUs, but infusions and Imaging generates a *ton* of money for hospital systems therefore they are willing to pay more per RVU
 
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I don’t think we generate extra RVUs, but infusions and Imaging generates a *ton* of money for hospital systems therefore they are willing to pay more per RVU
This is the key. In my system, oncology generates more income than GI or Cards and less only than the "Dept. of Surgery" which includes every single surgical sub-specialty other than ophtho (which is it's own separate dept here for some reason). So it's easy for them to throw a few extra wRVU ducats our way compared to our (e.g) ID and FM colleagues.
 
This is the key. In my system, oncology generates more income than GI or Cards and less only than the "Dept. of Surgery" which includes every single surgical sub-specialty other than ophtho (which is it's own separate dept here for some reason). So it's easy for them to throw a few extra wRVU ducats our way compared to our (e.g) ID and FM colleagues.
division of hem/onc is a cash cow for the dept of medicine and the hospital at my large academic center. It was honestly surprising though it all makes a lot more sense now that I’m on the other side
 
This is the key. In my system, oncology generates more income than GI or Cards and less only than the "Dept. of Surgery" which includes every single surgical sub-specialty other than ophtho (which is it's own separate dept here for some reason). So it's easy for them to throw a few extra wRVU ducats our way compared to our (e.g) ID and FM colleagues.
caesar dropping gold coins
 
The differences across the country are insane. We are at $115 per rvu in the south. Just went up from $110.25.
This is across specialties or for heme onc only?

Is it easy to hit 8k RVU in heme onc in your set up?
 
This is across specialties or for heme onc only?
Is what across specialties? Regional reimbursement? Absolutely.
Is it easy to hit 8k RVU in heme onc in your set up?
Let's do the math. There are, of course, a ton of variables, but when I'm comparing hem-onc comp plans (which I spend more of my time than I care to admit doing), I like to take a relatively simple approach.

On any given day, you're going to have 1-3 new patients, and 10-20 follow ups. Each of them will be worth a variable amount of wRVUs based on complexity. But I like to think of the new patients as 99204.5 and the follow ups as 99214.5 (aka, an average of level 4 and 5). So for the new patients, the average is 3.15 wRVU and for follow ups, it's 2.36. Figure for a busy, full-time doc, 2 new and 16 follow ups a day (this is about my productivity 10y into my career), working 4 days a week, 48 weeks a year. (Again...averages...some days are slower, some busier). This also assumes the entirety of compensation is based on E/M coding only on clinic visits, which is not universally true.

2*3.15 = 6.3
16*2.36=37.76
6.3+37.76=44.06
So on an average day, let's call it 45 wRVU because I like round numbers.

45*4*48=8640

So...is it possible to see 8k wRVU/year in hem/onc? Sure. But you should recognize that this is MGMA 90th %ile territory. 25th %ile is ~3850 and 50th %ile is ~5500 if I remember my numbers correctly.

So in @HOIV 's system, a 90th %ile doc should be pulling in roughly $1M/y. Is this normal/typical (especially in an employed, or MSG situation)? Not really. but $500-650 certainly is. And there are other avenues of compensation that are not necessarily directly tied to clinical productivity in certain situations.
 
Is what across specialties? Regional reimbursement? Absolutely.

Let's do the math. There are, of course, a ton of variables, but when I'm comparing hem-onc comp plans (which I spend more of my time than I care to admit doing), I like to take a relatively simple approach.

On any given day, you're going to have 1-3 new patients, and 10-20 follow ups. Each of them will be worth a variable amount of wRVUs based on complexity. But I like to think of the new patients as 99204.5 and the follow ups as 99214.5 (aka, an average of level 4 and 5). So for the new patients, the average is 3.15 wRVU and for follow ups, it's 2.36. Figure for a busy, full-time doc, 2 new and 16 follow ups a day (this is about my productivity 10y into my career), working 4 days a week, 48 weeks a year. (Again...averages...some days are slower, some busier). This also assumes the entirety of compensation is based on E/M coding only on clinic visits, which is not universally true.

2*3.15 = 6.3
16*2.36=37.76
6.3+37.76=44.06
So on an average day, let's call it 45 wRVU because I like round numbers.

45*4*48=8640

So...is it possible to see 8k wRVU/year in hem/onc? Sure. But you should recognize that this is MGMA 90th %ile territory. 25th %ile is ~3850 and 50th %ile is ~5500 if I remember my numbers correctly.

So in @HOIV 's system, a 90th %ile doc should be pulling in roughly $1M/y. Is this normal/typical (especially in an employed, or MSG situation)? Not really. but $500-650 certainly is. And there are other avenues of compensation that are not necessarily directly tied to clinical productivity in certain situations.
This is correct. I do 4.75 days of clinic plus rounding. Gutonc’s math is fairly close for me. I see 30-40 a day Monday to Wednesday and about 30 on Thursday and 25 on Friday. .
 
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This is correct. I do 4.75 days of clinic plus rounding. Gutonc’s math is fairly close for me. I see 30-40 a day Monday to Wednesday and about 30 on Thursday and 25 on Friday. .
If you don’t mind me asking, what are your clinic hours like? How many years out from fellowship did it take you to get to the point of being able to see so many?
 
Prior to applying for jobs 3rd year of fellowship I never really considered any of this stuff. I got various offers for academic without rvu bonus, academic with rvu bonus and private and hybrid with rvu bonuses. I’m currently in an inpatient only position which I love, the hours are great and the rvu target (for which going above pays per rvu) is easy to hit and exceed. My predecessor who was in the roughly same role as me but had several years experience topped out around 8000 rvu which is my target as I gain more experience

My census is roughly 15-20 per day, I see 3-5 consults a week and would estimate 5-10 admissions per week. Again, all inpatient
 
If you don’t mind me asking, what are your clinic hours like? How many years out from fellowship did it take you to get to the point of being able to see so many?

I’m 3 years out. Got good clinical training and did extra time in fellowship continuity clinics to be prepared.

Usually 7 (to round) with clinic starting at 8 and ending at 4:30-5.
 
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This is correct. I do 4.75 days of clinic plus rounding. Gutonc’s math is fairly close for me. I see 30-40 a day Monday to Wednesday and about 30 on Thursday and 25 on Friday. .
you see 30-40 patients? or do that many wrvu's?
 
I don't know how some of you do 5 days of clinic a week. And to see 30-40 a day...that sounds rough to me unless you have NPs doing almost all of the work on half of them.
 
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you see 30-40 patients? or do that many wrvu's?
You know, I didn't even think of wRVUs instead of patients. I just assumed patients.

If @HOIV is talking wRVUs, that makes sense and is what I generally do in a day. If it's patient number, that's just nuts and even 7 figures would not make that kind of workload palatable to me.
 
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You know, I didn't even think of wRVUs instead of patients. I just assumed patients.

If @HOIV is talking wRVUs, that makes sense and is what I generally do in a day. If it's patient number, that's just nuts and even 7 figures would not make that kind of workload palatable to me.
Patients is correct. We are in an underserved area from an oncologist perspective and I have trouble saying no. Getting better at it. We are very well compensated as suggested by the conjecture above.
 
I don't know how some of you do 5 days of clinic a week. And to see 30-40 a day...that sounds rough to me unless you have NPs doing almost all of the work on half of them.
Usually see 30-35 myself with any above that with some assistance from NP
 
Usually see 30-35 myself with any above that with some assistance from NP
How is this volume possible and sustainable given everything else that goes into oncology practice - coordination of care, phone calls, tumor boards, etc??
 
This is an excellent discussion, but one other thing to be aware of, that I did not realize, for academic institutions is to always make sure you know “how” wRVUs are calculated. We were all surprised when our academic institution decided that for the forseeable future wRVUs would be calculated based on pre-/circa 2020 CMS values.
 
Is what across specialties? Regional reimbursement? Absolutely.

Let's do the math. There are, of course, a ton of variables, but when I'm comparing hem-onc comp plans (which I spend more of my time than I care to admit doing), I like to take a relatively simple approach.

On any given day, you're going to have 1-3 new patients, and 10-20 follow ups. Each of them will be worth a variable amount of wRVUs based on complexity. But I like to think of the new patients as 99204.5 and the follow ups as 99214.5 (aka, an average of level 4 and 5). So for the new patients, the average is 3.15 wRVU and for follow ups, it's 2.36. Figure for a busy, full-time doc, 2 new and 16 follow ups a day (this is about my productivity 10y into my career), working 4 days a week, 48 weeks a year. (Again...averages...some days are slower, some busier). This also assumes the entirety of compensation is based on E/M coding only on clinic visits, which is not universally true.

2*3.15 = 6.3
16*2.36=37.76
6.3+37.76=44.06
So on an average day, let's call it 45 wRVU because I like round numbers.

45*4*48=8640

So...is it possible to see 8k wRVU/year in hem/onc? Sure. But you should recognize that this is MGMA 90th %ile territory. 25th %ile is ~3850 and 50th %ile is ~5500 if I remember my numbers correctly.

So in @HOIV 's system, a 90th %ile doc should be pulling in roughly $1M/y. Is this normal/typical (especially in an employed, or MSG situation)? Not really. but $500-650 certainly is. And there are other avenues of compensation that are not necessarily directly tied to clinical productivity in certain situations.
Average of 99214 and 99215 is pretty great. This includes benign hemes as well? Those are mostly 99213s for me and represent a good amount of patients that I see. Am I underbilling for these? Chemo follow ups/symptom checks tend to be 99214 or 5 if there are problems.
 
Average of 99214 and 99215 is pretty great. This includes benign hemes as well? Those are mostly 99213s for me and represent a good amount of patients that I see. Am I underbilling for these? Chemo follow ups/symptom checks tend to be 99214 or 5 if there are problems.
If you were to average all of my follow up encounters, I'd bet it comes down to a 99214.2-3.

Whatever you're billing will obviously depend on your case mix. If you're doing almost all benign heme, 99213 is reasonable. 6 month Stage II colon cancer f/u at 3y out? 99213. ER+ breast cancer on an AI needing mammogram and DEXA to follow bone density? 99214. Anybody getting chemo is an easy 99214 if they're sailing through it. Anyone with a side effect requiring intervention is a 99215.
 
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Patients is correct. We are in an underserved area from an oncologist perspective and I have trouble saying no. Getting better at it. We are very well compensated as suggested by the conjecture above.
I will go back to my prior statement...that's nuts. If you're working that hard every week, you're looking at 10-12K wRVU/y which is a metric f***ton of work for a non-proceduralist. And at that volume and compensation, you should be ready to retire in a year or so. Assuming you don't burnout before that.
 
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Interesting to hear about this job, as I'm soon to be an IM graduate interested in working with cancer patients but strongly prefer the inpatient setting.

How commonly do heme/onc fellows take inpatient-only jobs? Is it a 7 on/off schedule? I'd be quite happy working as an oncology hospitalist, but in my neck of the woods this is staffed by attendings with only Internal Medicine training (with oncology consults PRN). There have been some whispers of hiring fellowship-trained folks for this role (since they'd be able to consent and sign for inpatient chemo orders and need to bother the outpatient primary oncologist less overall), but I'm not sure how popular this would be amongst new fellows, since it would pay less (more standard hospitalist salary) than if those fellows were to take a more traditional outpatient heme/onc gig.

Basically, I'm uncertain about the utility of doing heme/onc fellowship if my interest is primarily in taking care of cancer patients in an inpatient setting. If more and more fellows start to take inpatient gigs, then the balance tilts in favor of doing a fellowship for me.
This is definitely a bit of a rarity but these kind of jobs do exist at large academic centers and cancer centers. I specifically do inpatient leukemia for which there is clear utility having an inpatient practice as so much of leukemia care is inpatient. Also pay is more for my position than if I had a traditional outpatient position. I also have a somewhat normal 8:30-4:30 schedule and have chosen to take on some of the more complicated patients that involve middle of the night calls Occasionally and usually require some working virtually before and after I leave the hospital which I don’t mind since I have a 2.5h round trip (total) commute. I work 5d a week the entire year, so no 7on/7off though many of the oncology hospitalists positions are either 1w on/off or 2 on/2 off.

Despite the above that I’m sure would turn some (maybe many?) people off, I love inpatient medicine and the acuity of leukemia so for me this is a perfect position. I’m also getting an incredible experience in clinical leukemia in a short period of time and will have opportunity to pivot to more outpatient time if I’d like in future.

I spend about 40h/week in the hospital and wfh about 1-2h per night

I also work with students, residents and fellows, precept in clinic, occasionally do a resident noon conference and med school malig heme teaching session and am on the recruitment committee for the hem/onc fellowship program. The opportunity for research is also there just not super interested at the moment though am sub investigator on the open trials for leukemia so can consent sign orders etc
 
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