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bubbles3030

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You guys have been awesome in answering my questions and as I am making my schedule a large one remains: Away rotations.

I go to school in the east but I am from the Midwest. My goal is to eventually end up in Texas/California because I have friends/family there.
I was originally thinking about doing two, one in california and one in texas in July/August months, but it looks like it will be crazy expensive. Is it worth it? If I was going to only do one, which state would be better and look more positively on aways? Will I still get love from California if I have no real ties to the state?

I'd appreciate any advice and I am sure those in a similar boat would too!

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There's no single easy answer to give you.

I think doing an away (singular) in general is a good idea; it lets you see how different departments work and can help you decide on things when choosing residencies (academic vs clinical, big vs small etc). I did an away at a "big name" program that was geographically far from my home institution to see what it was all about and ended up with a positive impression that has impacted my ultimate rank list.

People will caution you about doing aways because in a sense they are a month-long interview. Obviously you could really hurt your chances with that program if they don't like you. In my opinion you are unlikely to significantly improve your chances at matching that program by doing an away there so it boils down to a moderate risk-low reward scenario for that specific program (though again globally I think doing an away is smart). The one major upside is that you may be able to get a recommendation letter from the institute which would diversify your application a bit.

As far as your specific geographic question, I think a lot of people struggle to get interviews in California if they don't have a connection to the state. I got two without any connection but I applied to a fairly large number of programs in the state and consider myself a fairly competitive candidate based on numbers. Doing an away there may improve your chances at getting an interview at that particular institution and maybe in the state as a whole. I don't think there are as many programs in Texas and in general I don't think the state is as competitive so the away there may be lower yield.

The optho interview process is very idiosyncratic and unpredictable the programs do seem to have geographic biases. I was cautioned against doing an away close to where I grew up or close to where my medical school is since this might "signal" to programs outside of these areas that I would be unwilling to move to a new area for residency. I did not follow this advice and I do wonder if I would have received interviews at more programs if I hadn't had as strong a geographic leaning in my application. I also wonder if by doing an away at a big name institution I scared off some similarly competitive programs and less competitive programs who assumed I was dead set on going to the program I rotated at. Even programs that did give me interviews would ask me about my away rotation in an effort to gauge how married I was to that institute, they didn't always seem convinced that I was seriously considering their program even though I was.

This post has turned into a ramble but the bottom lines are:
1) Do 1 away, make sure you leave a good impression
2) California is probably harder to get into than Texas without a connection
3) Try not to pidgeon hole yourself geographically/program prestige wise if possible
 
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I concur with a lot of SoMinty's observations. Each ophthalmology residency admissions committee is run in a unique way by individuals with their own methodology for evaluating applicants for potential interviews, so you never know what the admissions committee member (who is probably a busy clinician/researcher/institutional leader) will pick up and fixate on while scanning rapidly through your app, and there are no hard and fast rules about what matters. The most you can do it put down things in your app that have the opportunity to reflect what you want and hope that someone bites, without having an expectation that everyone (or even anyone) will. If possibility alone is not worth enough to you personally to justify the expense then don't pay the price to have it in your application.

In my experience, I did one away in the same region as my medical school (not Texas or Cali), and I feel that I performed well and left a positive impression. However, it was definitely stressful and I can see how one wrong move could have resulted in a bad impression. Takeaways from that experience:

1) An interviewer at another program asked outright what they could do to woo me away from the above program, which implied that they thought that doing that away did imply strong personal interest. You can see how this interpretation could "hurt your standing" with other programs. But most programs didn't mention the away, so it's another item that may be fixated on or ignored along with your hobbies, permanent address, personal statement, etc.
2) I feel that doing the away at the above program was influential in me getting an interview there, and I have gotten the very subjective impression that programs do tend to interview applicants who did an away rotation at their specific program. So if you are interested in a program in particular (maybe close to your friends/family) then you might consider doing that away.
3) You could definitely hurt your chances if you rub someone the wrong way, but I actually didn't feel like doing poorly at the above away would have hurt my chances with any other programs (though ophtho is a small community), so the risk is usually finite. However, if you hit it off with people there and/or are generally able to show that you are a sociable person and work well in a team then it might go a long way in a positive way. Interviews exist in part to look for personality fit so if you can show beforehand that you get along well with everyone then it's a plus. Imo, aways are less about blowing people away with how smart you are (extremely unlikely) and more about being helpful, easygoing, and sincerely interested in learning about the institution while you're there. Strategies for doing well on aways are discussed extensively elsewhere, but my bottom line for this is, if you are a likeable, reasonably intelligent person and don't **** up then it is likely to help, but if you are a person who "takes time to warm up to people" (and hopefully at this point in life you know which one you are) then maybe you should not go on an away at a program that you are really interested in (though it may still be helpful to put it in your application that you went on an away in a specific area).
4) Aways are really informative for you professionally in showing you how other programs operate and which factors actually influence resident training/day-to-day life, so at I would recommend at least one away in general.

Other impressions from my application cycle:
5) Though interviewee groups did tend to include large numbers of Texas medical school students, Texas seemed very Midwest friendly. It is also not as great of a location as California and they more often find themselves in the position of convincing applicants to come to their program *in spite of* their location in Texas, so, subjectively, Texas seems easier to match into without hardcore connections than California.
6) I got several California interviews without any connections to the state on paper (have family in the area), though I was asked about personal connections during interviews. Meanwhile, I know a very competitive now-resident who wasn't invited to interview in California despite being a California native.
7) Applications (and MEDICAL SCHOOL) are expensive so consider the cost of aways within that context.

My takeaways:
1) Aways are informative for various reasons, so at least one is recommended
2) Do fewer (0-1) if you are awkward/asocial/a dick, more (1-3) if you are a nice person/good team player
3) An away can be more likely to get you an interview at a particular program (presuming the latter in #2)
4) Texas may be easier to get than California
5) How many interviews you get mostly depends on the strength of your application
6) Location biases (to permanent address, medical school, away locations, etc.) are super arbitrary and it's basically impossible to tell which programs will care and which won't, and in fact each applicant's experience with even one particular program is probably variable.
 
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I rotated at two very strong programs and I don't think my interview season would have gone twice as good if I hadn't. The expectations of a medical student on ophtho rotations is very minimal even at top tier places. Show up, work hard, help in any way you can, and be open about wanting an LOR at the very beginning of the rotation.
 
I rotated at two very strong programs and I don't think my interview season would have gone twice as good if I hadn't. The expectations of a medical student on ophtho rotations is very minimal even at top tier places. Show up, work hard, help in any way you can, and be open about wanting an LOR at the very beginning of the rotation.

You have No home program, right?


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You have No home program, right?


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Yea no home program, so I didn't really have any choice in the matter but I think doing them at strong programs ended up being the best thing that I did and is the reason I got a number of interviews.

If you have a strong home program then it's probably not necessary but I do think that getting to see how different two programs can be also helped me make decisions about what kind of program I prefer.
 
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I would recommend doing aways in general if you have certain programs/geography in mind.
 
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I concur with a lot of SoMinty's observations. Each ophthalmology residency admissions committee is run in a unique why by individuals with their own methodology for evaluating applicants for potential interviews, so you never know what the admissions committee member (who is probably a busy clinician/researcher/institutional leader) will pick up and fixate on while scanning rapidly through your app, and there are no hard and fast rules about what matters. The most you can do it put down things in your app that have the opportunity to reflect what you want and hope that someone bites, without having an expectation that everyone (or even anyone) will. If possibility alone is not worth enough to you personally to justify the expense then don't pay the price to have it in your application.

In my experience, I did one away in the same region as my medical school (not Texas or Cali), and I feel that I performed well and left a positive impression. However, it was definitely stressful and I can see how one wrong move could have resulted in a bad impression. Takeaways from that experience:

1) An interviewer at another program asked outright what they could do to woo me away from the above program, which implied that they thought that doing that away did imply strong personal interest. You can see how this interpretation could "hurt your standing" with other programs. But most programs didn't mention the away, so it's another item that may be fixated on or ignored along with your hobbies, permanent address, personal statement, etc.
2) I feel that doing the away at the above program was influential in me getting an interview there, and I have gotten the very subjective impression that programs do tend to interview applicants who did an away rotation at their specific program. So if you are interested in a program in particular (maybe close to your friends/family) then you might consider doing that away.
3) You could definitely hurt your chances if you rub someone the wrong way, but I actually didn't feel like doing poorly at the above away would have hurt my chances with any other programs (though ophtho is a small community), so the risk is usually finite. However, if you hit it off with people there and/or are generally able to show that you are a sociable person and work well in a team then it might go a long way in a positive way. Interviews exist in part to look for personality fit so if you can show beforehand that you get along well with everyone then it's a plus. Imo, aways are less about blowing people away with how smart you are (extremely unlikely) and more about being helpful, easygoing, and sincerely interested in learning about the institution while you're there. Strategies for doing well on aways are discussed extensively elsewhere, but my bottom line for this is, if you are a likeable, reasonably intelligent person and don't **** up then it is likely to help, but if you are a person who "takes time to warm up to people" (and hopefully at this point in life you know which one you are) then maybe you should not go on an away at a program that you are really interested in (though it may still be helpful to put it in your application that you went on an away in a specific area).
4) Aways are really informative for you professionally in showing you how other programs operate and which factors actually influence resident training/day-to-day life, so at I would recommend at least one away in general.

Other impressions from my application cycle:
5) Though interviewee groups did tend to include large numbers of Texas medical school students, Texas seemed very Midwest friendly. It is also not as great of a location as California and they more often find themselves in the position of convincing applicants to come to their program *in spite of* their location in Texas, so, subjectively, Texas seems easier to match into without hardcore connections than California.
6) I got several California interviews without any connections to the state on paper (have family in the area), though I was asked about personal connections during interviews. Meanwhile, I know a very competitive now-resident who wasn't invited to interview in California despite being a California native.
7) Applications (and MEDICAL SCHOOL) are expensive so consider the cost of aways within that context.

My takeaways:
1) Aways are informative for various reasons, so at least one is recommended
2) Do fewer (0-1) if you are awkward/asocial/a dick, more (1-3) if you are a nice person/good team player
3) An away can be more likely to get you an interview at a particular program (presuming the latter in #2)
4) Texas may be easier to get than California
5) How many interviews you get mostly depends on the strength of your application
6) Location biases (to permanent address, medical school, away locations, etc.) are super arbitrary and it's basically impossible to tell which programs will care and which won't, and in fact each applicant's experience with even one particular program is probably variable.

This post is on point. In general a major take home is that it is hard to predict the match and the love you will get from different programs. At the same time you have to try and make intelligent decisions that may further your application. In the end some choices don't make a huge difference, but at least you tried. Also as the above poster mentioned, you need to be honest with yourself throughout this whole Process. Like really understand your weaknesses and don't obsess over made up weaknesses while ignoring others.

though this isn't the right thread... don't just have mentors and advisors read your personal statement. Have someone look over the entire application. I have seen applications put together very poorly, and this can hurt when many programs read through your application with care when deciding to invite you to interview. The CAS isn't intuitive and it really helped me to have people discuss what to put where and how to format.

Best of luck to all.


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I took the approach of applying to rotate at an east coast program which I thought was "out of my league", didn't think I really stood out from the crowd on paper and would be looked over. Figured I wanted to put it on me and show who I was. Gamble worked out and I was offered an interview at said program. Didn't want to live with that "what if...." in the back of my mind.
 
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