Those who did Prelim Surgery!! need your advice

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
ar2388

ar2388

rads resident
15+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
3,941
Reaction score
4
Hi!

I have been set on doing prelim surgery before radiology for a number of months now. have a surgery advisor, all my letters writers know im going into surgery, and this morning I woke up with HORRIBLE doubts.. will i be putting myself through a miserable year for nothing? i really like the OR, i prefer surgery patients and postop care. i like lines and drains and short, fast rounds.

however, i get such a negative reaction from everyone. will the hours really be sooo much worse for zero benefit? should i just do prelim medicine? clinic days are nice and easy....

i need advice guys,. please. those who did prelim surgery, please tell me how your experiences were... i will be super grateful!!
Members don't see this ad.
 
ar2388 said:
Hi!

I have been set on doing prelim surgery before radiology for a number of months now. have a surgery advisor, all my letters writers know im going into surgery, and this morning I woke up with HORRIBLE doubts.. will i be putting myself through a miserable year for nothing? i really like the OR, i prefer surgery patients and postop care. i like lines and drains and short, fast rounds.

however, i get such a negative reaction from everyone. will the hours really be sooo much worse for zero benefit? should i just do prelim medicine? clinic days are nice and easy....

i need advice guys,. please. those who did prelim surgery, please tell me how your experiences were... i will be super grateful!!
Click to expand...

Best advice - dont do prelim surgery. :thumbdown: If you like the OR do a transitional year. A couple months is more than enough
 
Why?

Don't do it.

You will get no educational value out of your surgery prelim, you probably won't even be able to step foot in the OR.

It makes sense in an abstract way, but I have not met a single person who would suggest going down this route.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Completely agree with the last two posters. A TY will give you the freedom to do some surgery rotations and get into the OR, but also not be a surgical intern so you likely won't be "carrying" patients at all or responsible for post-op care garbage. You will basically be able to split your time between hanging out in the OR getting to help out or watch (but with no longitudinal patient responsibilities), and clinic time as you see fit.

When the middle of next year rolls around, you will greatly appreciate the advice to do a TY (or at the very least an easier prelim medicine year), in my opinion. As someone else already stated, as a surgical prelim you will be the scuttiest of the scutmonkeys in the hospital. You will likely see minimal OR time.
 
Yeah even at my community hosp the interns (who do get to do a lot of surgery) are utterly slammed. They hadn't left by 9 pm last night when I was on overnight. You'll work 13-14 hours q6 days and rarely if ever have a golden wknd and take care of sick post-op floor patients and carry 6 pagers in prelim surg, it'll be fantastic; nm that in NYC you'll have to do all the blood draws on all your 150 patients too haha
 
drizzt3117 said:
Yeah even at my community hosp the interns (who do get to do a lot of surgery) are utterly slammed. They hadn't left by 9 pm last night when I was on overnight. You'll work 13-14 hours q6 days and rarely if ever have a golden wknd and take care of sick post-op floor patients and carry 6 pagers in prelim surg, it'll be fantastic; nm that in NYC you'll have to do all the blood draws on all your 150 patients too haha
Click to expand...

Now now. :p

The scuttiest hospitals in NYC only require interns to do blood cultures and ABGs.

All other scheduled labs are drawn by phlebotomy/nursing (occasionally requiring sweet talk and/or donuts).

Only STAT labs need to be drawn by the intern.
 
johnnydrama said:
Now now. :p

The scuttiest hospitals in NYC only require interns to do blood cultures and ABGs.

All other scheduled labs are drawn by phlebotomy/nursing (occasionally requiring sweet talk and/or donuts).

Only STAT labs need to be drawn by the intern.
Click to expand...

true true.

thanks guys!! ive made the switch to prelim medicine and TY programs!
 
Bear in mind that you only got advice above from folks who didn't do surgical internships, so the views are not exactly fair and balanced. You would work long hours in surgery, but there are many many prelim medicine programs that have bad hours and do a lot more unsavory tasks. If you can't get a cush TY spot, you may end up kicking yourself for wavering.
 
The thing is, you're guaranteed to work 80 hrs per week as a prelim surgery intern; I was considering doing the designated prelim surg program at sinai which is one of the better ones, and a girl from my school in the '11 class who just finished said it was 80+ hrs/wk but she got to do a ton of cases, but all the other interns from NYC surg programs had it a lot worse; a lot of prelim medicine programs aren't great but you still have outpatient months which will be easier than surgery.
 
drizzt3117 said:
The thing is, you're guaranteed to work 80 hrs per week as a prelim surgery intern; I was considering doing the designated prelim surg program at sinai which is one of the better ones, and a girl from my school in the '11 class who just finished said it was 80+ hrs/wk but she got to do a ton of cases, but all the other interns from NYC surg programs had it a lot worse; a lot of prelim medicine programs aren't great but you still have outpatient months which will be easier than surgery.
Click to expand...

I agree with the hours and that you have to do your due diligence. But you can end up in a prelim medicine program where you also work 80 hours a week (on paper, assuming compliance) with few electives and from which you get pulled frequently to cover for seniors on interviews, etc. because you are just the prelim. The prelims in particular can be treated as second class citizens in medicine programs as compared to categoricals. The folks I know who had the worst intern year experience and got most brutalized actually weren't in surgery, but IM. I'm just saying don't assume that medicine is going to be better than surgery as a blanket rule. There's a big area of overlap with prelim medicine vs prelim surgery, with some of the former being brutal, and the latter being quite benign. Not all 80 hour a week jobs are equal. And often an 80 hour a week job where they treat you well is a lot more tolerable than a 70 hour a week job where they don't.
 
Last edited:
I'm sure you could find a prelim med program out there worse than a prelim surg program. That being said, you shouldn't be applying to programs like that if you're doing your due diligence. On average, you'll work significantly less in prelim medicine, with consult, outpatient, and elective months that are much cusher.
 
As I said, Beth Israel in NYC is probably a case of the surgery prelim being better than the IM prelim, but the point is they are both awful.


There are some awful IM prelims that may be worse than a surgery prelim, but to my knowledge there are no good surgery prelims.

So you're better off choosing between IM prelims than wasting your time with surgery.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
That of course, depends on your definition of "good". If your goal is to do cases and be in a relatively non-malignant env, I'd argue Sinai is a good program. If your goal is cushiness, then it's not.

johnnydrama said:
As I said, Beth Israel in NYC is probably a case of the surgery prelim being better than the IM prelim, but the point is they are both awful.


There are some awful IM prelims that may be worse than a surgery prelim, but to my knowledge there are no good surgery prelims.

So you're better off choosing between IM prelims than wasting your time with surgery.
Click to expand...
 
i know beth israel is notoriously malignant. ill probably rank it very very low on the list. lenox hill would be great. NYU would be great or winthrop university i hear is nice.

anyone know anything about the metropolitan program? its one of the clinical sites for NYMC students. thanks!
 
Law2Doc said:
of course there are. You just have to do your homework to find them.
Click to expand...

Any program where your most common question is "did you fart yet" is not worth the time of an MD who is NOT going into surgery.
 
ar2388 said:
i know beth israel is notoriously malignant. ill probably rank it very very low on the list. lenox hill would be great. NYU would be great or winthrop university i hear is nice.

anyone know anything about the metropolitan program? its one of the clinical sites for NYMC students. thanks!
Click to expand...

Any program with an HHC hospital will be tough, but at least it will have a good EMR.

NYU would be rough, but they at least treat their prelims the same as cagegoricals - Beth Israel does not.

Metropolitan will be less academic than NYU (shorter rounds, less didactics), but the floors will be almost as busy with as little nursing support. (But you're already used to this if you're NYMC.)

If you can get them, Lenox Hill, Winthrop, and Sound Shore are probably the lightest prelims. SLR is surprisingly tough, but up there too.

NYHQ and Flushing are much better as a TY.

NSLIJ has Forest Hills which is supposed to be good, and the academic program is probably the best of the academic programs in the city. (Mostly very tough.)

If you can deal with being outside the city, you're much better off. Best I've heard of nearby is Greenwich.
 
thanks so much johnnydrama! that was super helpful!

fingers crossed for interviews at winthrop and NYHQ...

Do you guys use different personal statements for your prelim programs??
 
ar2388 said:
thanks so much johnnydrama! that was super helpful!

fingers crossed for interviews at winthrop and NYHQ...

Do you guys use different personal statements for your prelim programs??
Click to expand...

I did not, but many other people did. I'm not sure it matters - they are mainly looking for competent team players, obviously your main interests lie elsewhere.

Probably biggest perk of Winthrop is the housing ($400/mo pre tax) and location (30 min out of Manhattan by LIRR and hospital is next to the station).

Feel free to PM me with more questions.
 
ar2388 said:
thanks so much johnnydrama! that was super helpful!

fingers crossed for interviews at winthrop and NYHQ...

Do you guys use different personal statements for your prelim programs??
Click to expand...

Used the same personal statement as my advanced except changed the last paragraph to direct it towards prelim/ty.
 
i would definitely commute to winthrop from the city.. basically i was looking at programs that will allow me to commute from my current location as i'm definitely not moving.
 
ar2388 said:
i would definitely commute to winthrop from the city.. basically i was looking at programs that will allow me to commute from my current location as i'm definitely not moving.
Click to expand...

Sound Shore is also near transportation (Metro North). NSLIJ requires a car unless you're willing to pay for cabs from the station. Lincoln Med Center is a bad hospital, but has a new TY that may be good and apparently floors aren't that bad. Lenox Hill is probably the best in the city limits. Flushing is falling apart, but easy. NYHQ prelim looked mediocre, but tye TY is good. Feel free to ask about more.
 
gutonc said:
The TY? Because their prelim med and surg years (used to at least) suck enormous donkey cojones. It's been a few years though so perhaps things have changed significantly.
Click to expand...

No TY, only med. Nicknamed Lenox Chill, although I'm sure there are tough months.
 
johnnydrama said:
No TY, only med. Nicknamed Lenox Chill, although I'm sure there are tough months.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought. I mean...compared to doing prelim IM at NYU or Monte I suppose it's pretty OK but when I was there (again...a "couple" of years ago), those kids were getting worked. When St. V's still existed it was a sweet prelim gig.

Having now experienced medical trainee life both inside and outside of NYC (including some rotations at Lenox) I will say that the Lenox Chill reputation is strictly relative to what else is available in the area.
 
johnnydrama said:
Oh, yeah, it's strictly by NYC standards.
Click to expand...

haha yea. its all relative.
So far I have:

prelim med:
BI NYC (heard terrible things tho about how they treat their prelims)
Lenox hill
MSSM
NY downtown
NYMC - Metropolitan
NYU
SLR
winthrop


TY:
MSKCC
NYHQ

were you talking about NYMC - sound shore?? where you can take amtrak?
 
prelim med:
BI NYC
Lenox hill
MSSM - rough, but not as bad as NYU or Monte.
NY downtown - paper charts, great location, didn't talk to many residents.
NYMC - Metropolitan - HHC
NYU - Full EMR, tough.
SLR - great location, good housing, not as bad as BI.
winthrop


TY:
MSKCC - toughest TY in NYC, mainly goes to people with serious cancer interests (Rad Onc + Derm).
NYHQ - solid TY

were you talking about NYMC - sound shore?? where you can take amtrak?

Yup, although Amtrak is a POS and expensive. It's also on the Metro North line (much cheaper and more frequent, basically the same as LIRR).

I'm not sure how true this is, but I've heard interns don't do admissions there at all.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

W
Word of advice for those interviewing for prelim/TY spot
Replies
15
Views
8K
.Asterion
.Asterion
I
Dual Apply Prelim Medicine and Surgery?
Replies
1
Views
3K
JBM16BYU
JBM16BYU
doctorfaraoh
Surgery Prelim year in California
Replies
2
Views
3K
Spikebd
Spikebd
D
IMG need advice/experience in prelim application & SOAP success rate
Replies
2
Views
5K
rokshana
R
F
Lenox Hill IM Prelim
Replies
1
Views
2K
collegestud2013
C
Top