this is what we have to go through in india...

[nokia]

Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:26 pm Post subject: A passing thought: MBA vs MBBS...scope work, salary, hours?

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I was just wondering, my schoolmates and friends who became mba or engineers are earning salaries that doctors can only dream of, that too their starting salaries. I wonder what is more important, a human life or some machine or company? Does human life come so cheap?
We doctors work for 24 hrs a day, while the white collared job is just for limited number of hours. We attend to patients all throughout the night too, while u cant wake a mba before 10am in the morning. Still they earn more. Has anybody thought about this aspect, in India. Its not surprising to see so many people wanting to go to foreign countries. If the Indian government brings the level(The Salary Level) of doctors equivalent to mba's and engineers, no doctor would ever leave india. Food for thought!

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hi there,

my thoughts on the subject are:

privatization has been very successful in India in a lot of disciplines especially IT and management but it hasn't been the case in healthcare services....

i don't think it's fair to ask government to match salaries of doctors with that of private companies paying high salaries to MBAs.... instead i think it's time entrepreneur doctors came up and created institutions like Aravind Eye Hospital wherein they make good money for themselves and serve society very well...

At the same time I think there is also a need to think about innovative solutions for medical education in India. I mean is it not possible to devise a course curriculum that gives doctors general knowledge of all subjects in first 2 yrs and specialization in the next 2.5 years. Rather than spending 4.5 years stuyding all subjects and then 3 yrs in specialization.

Thanks
vivek
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What i feel is you are right my friend? even u do msc u earn better then mbbs and if u do tuitions u can earn which docs can never dream of. docs are like animals in this country they get nothing in comparision to their labor and hard work. still i dont why this fussy people go to medicine. they will realise when they are given title EDUCATED BEKAR

in my city mbbs can not even 5000 rs per month and they are recklessly treated even by class 3 and class 4 people because they dont know value of education. mbbs is nothing a bhikari only. sometimes i feel frustrated that i think to end myself and think there are many suicides in medical field as compared to any other fields.

and above all there is big reservation. from now onwards government declared all government posts to be field by only sc sebc and st uptil 3 years. no open merit admissions in any post even if it is ap, or assosciate. still the will of docs is good inspite of all this reservations i dont know what soil they are made they go on being crushed everywhere and try madly everywhere for their opportunity.

i think even half of work done in iim u will clear iim and earn millions , dont spoil ur life as docs becoz u are not going to get anything becoz nobody realises importance of ur education becoz nobody is litterate enough to understand u not even professors, they know how hard it is still they want us to go to more hardships, its all ego and their cunning behavior to make us suffer worstly.

we are hit everywhere still we fight dont know, my all friends just at completion of bachelor of engineering degree are earning more then 20000 even when living in city and their king job of just 6 hours a day. because its private and there is no reservation there may be they are lucky and god gifted. what else.

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I did not only mean the government, but the whole system should accept doctor as a more important profession. Cant India have Medical colleges the same as IIT's And IIM's. Cant they have campus placements.
Have you ever wondered, the mba's have to just clear a GMAT exam to get into US to study or work. Why do we docs have to clear steps 1, 2cs, ck, 3 and residency matching before reaching US. Why the inequalities towards us?
Do we have lesser brains than the mba's or engineers? Why can only US and Uk provide good salaries to docs, why can't India do it too? Why can't we introduce income according to the number of working hours, then lets see who gets all the money.
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Dear Guest,
I would like 2 present the following for your kind consideration,
1.Statement of school rank holders(potential medicos) "i will become a doctor and serve the people
2. Please go through Hippocratic Oath-Guess what it is
3.Please know about the declaration u made while registering in medical council. Pl follow this to get it www.mciindia.org/know/rules/index.htm
4.U can even now (after mbbs) join MBA and get placed in high salaried job in a mnc (Since u know about ur brain)
5.Appear for CAT exam (eligibility mbbs also) and get into iims and earn what u dreamt
6.Jobs for doc in govt sector is less, even in govt service a doc can run private clinic, be consultants in as many hospitals,........
But in other profession u can work for only one firm( govt or pvt)
7.Salaried in govt sector for doc and engineers are the same pay scale

So, it is not too late, act atleast now

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Just a few notes in consideration of above post....
1. At least in Maharashtra,after reading interviews of all the toppers,in 10th and 12th...couldn't find many wanting to join the medical stream...all future aspiring corporate tycoons or software engn etc.

2.In Govt service u r NOT allowed to hav a private practice ,though it is commonly done by govt doctors...

3.Maybe the reason why we HAVE to work at so many hospitals is that what one hospital pays you is just not enough to keep your home going

4.And that blissful state of "consultant" at many hosp comes after many years of hard work. If u r a fresh MD pass-out working at say Nanvati,Leelavati or any priv hosp,where the hell are you going to get time to work anywhere else and they won't allow u either.

5.We are not slamming our profession here {at least i'm not}....it will always be one of the best in the world...BUT the conditions under which you have to work are pathetic...considerable difference between criticising your profession per se and your employers/pay-scale/work-conditions etc. So the question of stream change does not arise...we are here b'cos we love what we do..but we do feel that it is unfair to make us work the way we do and then pay us peanuts for it.

6.Serving the people is all very fine...but when you are 27,post-graduate and still dependant on your parents...i guess it pinches...

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DECLARATION (Made while registering in Medical Council in India)At the time of registration, each applicant shall be given a copy of the following declaration by the Registrar concerned and the applicant shall read and agree to abide by the same:
1. I solemnly pledge myself to consecrate my life to service of humanity.
2. Even under threat, I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the laws of Humanity.
3. I will maintain the utmost respect for human life from the time of conception.
4. I will not permit considerations of religion, nationality, race, party politics or social standing to intervene between my duty and my patient.
5. I will practise my profession with conscience and dignity.
6. The health of my patient will be my first consideration.
7. I will respect the secrets, which are confined in me.
8. I will give to my teachers the respect and gratitude which is their due.
9. I will maintain by all means in my power, the honour and noble traditions of medical profession.
10. I will treat my colleagues with all respect and dignity.
11. I shall abide by the code of medical ethics as enunciated in the Indian Medical Council (Professional Conduct, Etiquette and Ethics) Regulations 2002.
I make these promises solemnly, freely and upon my honour.
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Am sure we are not violating any of the above mentioned pledges if we request that we ourselves be treated a little more like human beings ourselves and less like machines...after all even we form a part the aforementioned "humanity". Or don't we....... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[nokia]

i found this article on rediff so i thought to share it here.....sad but true...


Quote:
DOCTOR OR ENGINEER - WHICH HAS MORE DEMAND?


There are two kinds of doctors in the world: those who see it as a career requiring selfless dedication and those who see it as a job that involves prescribing medication.

The first kind is becoming a rare, dwindling species, serving in the few large public hospitals which mostly treat the poor and needy.

The stipend that interns earn at these hospitals makes a part time job at McDonald's appear lucrative.

After years of academic slog, resident doctors make less money every month than fresh MBAs from Z-grade institutes selling insurance policies or credit cards.

So, yes, the 'noble profession' hangover remains a key motivator for those seeking careers in medicine.

A few years down the line, cynicism sets in.

We, the 'brightest and the best' who made it to a medical college, we deserve better.

THE MOST WANTED!

Medicine and engineering have long been the two 'most wanted' careers for middle class India.

Slowly and steadily, though, engineering seems to be gaining ground. Four years of engineering study at a decent college fetches you a well-paying job.

Or one can choose to go abroad for further studies with a good possibility of financial aid and a quick job.

Five and a half years of basic medical study -- even from the best institution -- gets you nowhere.

You have to do a post graduate specialisation (another three years). Preferably, you must also go in for 'super-specialisation' (another three years).

After these 12 to 15 years of study, the future is still uncertain.

The irony is that the demand for a doctor's service is, by definition, ever increasing. Especially in a populous country like ours.

Setting up practice, though, is not easy because in this profession, reputation brings in clients.

Moreover, reputations take years to build, especially when senior doctors are too insecure to promote junior talent and seldom, if ever, retire!

THE LONELY, MORE DIFFICULT PROFESSION

Medicine, thus, is not only a difficult profession, but a lonely one.

Many, many doctors rarely take vacations, afraid of losing patients to rivals.

Many others work long, stressful hours not just because it is their duty to attend to the sick but because consulting at three different hospitals and running one's own clinic/s is the only way to build a name.

There is also the system of General Practitioners referring patients to particular specialists and labs for a 'kickback'. Newly minted doctors may recoil at the thought, but seniors see it as a standard (only borderline unethical) practice.

More troubling are the doctors who order unnecessary tests, prolong hospital stays and generally prove themselves unworthy of the patient's trust.

These are the rotten eggs that exist in every profession. Except, here, the guilt is compounded by the nature of the work.

So, like I said, these are the dudes who see doctori as just another job which involves prescribing medication.

THE BALANCING ACT

Between the 'excessive dedication' and 'excessive medication' lot lie the majority of doctors, trying to balance the conflicts of the profession.

To serve without losing one's humanity, yet keep a distance in order to preserve one's sanity. To make a good living, yet resist the temptation to make an indecent one.

Part of the problem is that every doctor is competing for the low-hanging fruit, ie the well heeled patient.

The irony is, there is a huge demand for even ordinary MBBS graduates, but in areas where doctors fear to tread.

And I am not talking about rural Orissa.

Drivers, maids, peons in Mumbai's slums -- they all pay good money -- but to quacks who inject them with saline solution for common colds.

The Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation recently identified 250 such frauds operating in Mumbai alone. And I am pretty sure that with the sheer volume of patients they treat, the money they make is not inconsiderable.

But how many medical graduates will ever consider such a location to set up a practice?

WHO WILL MAKE MORE MONEY?

Coming back to the career question: medicine versus engineering, I think there is no question that in the long run, good doctors will always be in demand (and make money).

The question a student needs to answer is: do I have the required patience?

Both PMT and JEE are difficult exams, but making it to IITs or other prestigious engineering colleges means no more worries.

Medical students, on the other hand, must again compete for scarce PG seats. And consider alternative options, if they fail to get one.

These options include 'going abroad' through one of two routes:

a. Appear for United States Medical Licensing Exam, a necessary prerequisite for Indian medical graduates seeking a residency post in that country. After clearing USMLE steps 1 and 2, you need to actually go to the US and give the Clinical Skills Assessment examination, where you have to examine mock patients in a stipulated period of time.

The entire process is long, difficult and expensive (running into a few lakhs).

Also, getting a residency post is not easy or certain.

A similar exam, PLAB, exists for those wishing to practice in the United Kingdom.

b. Give the GRE and then take up MS/ Ph D in subjects like Public Health, Genetics, etc.

This means research/ academics as a career, giving up clinical practice altogether.

Some are okay with that. Or maybe they are just resigned to their fate.

The GRE route of 'going abroad' seems to be gaining popularity. It is easier both to get there and get a job.

And, what do you know, doctors are even aspiring for MBA courses! Although the number is tiny, it is happening.

1% of IIM Ahmedabad's class of 2006 lists its background as 'medicine'. That is just about three students, but it was unheard of until recently.

But why not? If 17-year olds who joined engineering can later realise this isn't what they want to do for the rest of their lives, the 17-year olds who similarly opted for medicine should be free to make the same choice.

Somehow, that isn't so. Clinical research, it is being said, may be the next big thing. Especially if India can convince the West to outsource its clinical trials here.

Hospital management courses are becoming popular. Yet, neither is attracting medical graduates in a big way.

In that sense, unlike any other graduates, doctors still have a great deal of pride in their skills. They also give it up less easily than engineer/ MBAs who will happily sell shampoos or manage hedge funds, with no love lost for their original subjects.

Just for that, I salute the unsung, underpaid, unwilling-to-give-up young doctor. Aapka number aayega, zaroor aayega.

Go ahead and fleece us MBAs. God knows, we somewhat deserve it!



the author is a IIM-A passout ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Do we have lesser brains than the mba's or engineers?


because we have more brains the US and UK fear that "one day all calssiacl textbooks will be edited by Indians, if the current inflow is not checked"

This was the statement in the foreign policy

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Quote:
6.Serving the people is all very fine...but when you are 27,post-graduate and still dependant on your parents...i guess it pinches...


It does not only pinch you, it hits you hard !!!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing that I have always wondered is that ours is the ONLY profession, where we are paid LESS in govt sector than in Private Sector

Even our professors (on the verge of retirement) and even the director get 22,000 per month.....

Compare this with any other profession (even IN OUR HOSPITAL SETUP)

In govt setup the average pay for the fresher is (it goes up every year)

Staff Nurse 4000 (Diploma)
Driver 4000 (12th Std)
Clerk 4000 (BA or BSc)
Typist 4000 (Type Exam)
Sweeper 2000 (10th Fail is enough)

Can any one of these people imagine such a pay in a private hospital or any other organisation

CRRI (in Tamil Nadu) Stipend 3000
Post Graduate (in Tamil Nadu)Stipend 5000 (fees is 30000 per year) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Drivers, maids, peons in Mumbai's slums -- they all pay good money -- but to quacks who inject them with saline solution for common colds.

The Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation recently identified 250 such frauds operating in Mumbai alone. And I am pretty sure that with the sheer volume of patients they treat, the money they make is not inconsiderable.


The amount of complications that arise is too much. i have seen intestine coming thorugh uterus following criminal abortion where the quack perforated uterus

There are cases of Anemia (high output failure) being treated with IV Fluids

Quote:
But how many medical graduates will ever consider such a location to set up a practice?


Lot of doctors, if the government gives us adequate protection..... There is a misconception that doctors are not willing to work in the rural setup.... This myth is propagated by those sitting in the ac rooms ..... I know a lot of doctors who had set up a rural practise... but had to return because of the constant trouble created by the QUACK (who fears that his practise is lost). The "troubles" include

1. Damaging Name Boards
2. Cutting telephone line
3. Puncturing the vehicle tyres etc

There is absolutely no govt protection....
_________________

 

[nokia]

life sucks man .

 

[Athene]

life sucks man .

wait for ur internship to start...u will probably do it from delhi or from your home town....well if u do it from KMC....they will make u work like a dog.....make u run from one hospital to another...and pay just........well u know the amount...peanuts...enough for booze and palkhi.....
b/w are u at capri??

 

[desikudi]

yeah..its sad...
One of my cousins in India,who is rite now in 3rd yr engineering college, has already been offered a job with a starting salary fo Rs.20,000..................while one of my uncles,who has passed MBBS since 4 yrs,,has not yet got a job....
It sucks,how doctors work so hard than engineers but not paid off nicely...not even close to engineers.

 

[nokia]

wait for ur internship to start...u will probably do it from delhi or from your home town....well if u do it from KMC....they will make u work like a dog.....make u run from one hospital to another...and pay just........well u know the amount...peanuts...enough for booze and palkhi.....
b/w are u at capri??

yup i`m eagerly waiting for ir to start ...to go home..rather run .....& we mbbs guys have abigger headache ,,the PG seat ..sorry do`t know abt u guys much ..

 

[Athene]

yeah..its sad...
One of my cousins in India,who is rite now in 3rd yr engineering college, has already been offered a job with a starting salary fo Rs.20,000..................while one of my uncles,who has passed MBBS since 4 yrs,,has not yet got a job....
It sucks,how doctors work so hard than engineers but not paid off nicely...not even close to engineers.

I passed out of the best dental school in India and guess what....I would have earned just just just just Rs.5000.......per month full day 7 days a week....appx. my monthly expenses at the dental school.....

 

[shardul]

life sucks man .

second it

 

[nokia]

second it

simply coz u r not what i`m !

 

[BDS-DMD]

I did not know there exists a ranking system for dental schools in India.

 

[Premedtomed]

India needs to promote entrepreneurship in healthcare

Allow privatization

 

[Athene]

India needs to promote entrepreneurship in healthcare

Allow privatization

Thanks....Sid....
"Siddharth
Entrepreneurship + Medicine = challenging and a great future! "

 

[Athene]

I did not know there exists a ranking system for dental schools in India.

Open ur eyes......

 

[BDS-DMD]

What are the parameters which make you say that your school was the best? I will say my school is the best. What is the criteria?

My eyes are WIDE open.

 

[fido!]

u said it man!atleast mine does!

life sucks man .

 

[fido!]

uh oh!i think we r going to enter into some conversations!

Open ur eyes......

 

[shardul]

simply coz u r not what i`m !

would be interesting to know who u r!

I know life sucks sucks.......and sucks......... there is no end to it i havent yet finished my 7th sem but i have already started to doubt my choice...... perhaps i didnt have a choice.......... I think choice is an illusion...........

 

[shardul]

India needs to promote entrepreneurship in healthcare

Allow privatization

read todays times of india ! there is an article titled something like "desi doctors take a global route" i think u would enjoy it

 

[shardul]

What are the parameters which make you say that your school was the best? I will say my school is the best. What is the criteria?

My eyes are WIDE open.

I dont what parameters wannabe dentist in maharashtra apply when they choose NHDC as a first option for dentistry. At least in maharashtra NHDC is best!!!!!!
I think students preference should be a parameter of ranking colleges otherwise u land up bringing out a mediocre top ten list of colleges......sadly thats what most of leading national magazines (read india today latest medical college rankigs) do!

 

[nokia]

would be interesting to know who u r!

I know life sucks sucks.......and sucks......... there is no end to it i havent yet finished my 7th sem but i have already started to doubt my choice...... perhaps i didnt have a choice.......... I think choice is an illusion...........

same here man ..but i just have to say to myself everyday ...there is bright light at the end of the tunnel ......& no ...i don`t think it`s the light of a incoming train ....

 

[nokia]

i think even Einstein cudn`t have achieved what he did then .thanx to our education system ..bet he wud`t have got even admission in a decent college in physics !.lol
BTW..how manyfamous scientists u can count before 1960 & after 1960 ? does that suggest something ?

 

[Athene]

would be interesting to know who u r!

I know life sucks sucks.......and sucks......... there is no end to it i havent yet finished my 7th sem but i have already started to doubt my choice...... perhaps i didnt have a choice.......... I think choice is an illusion...........

I guess choice is very real.....