The US Match and Irish grads

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deleted21609

Since my thread was hijacked by a bunch of hosers maybe we could have a thread about THE match.

How have recent results been?

Anyone applying this year?
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I'm interested in hearing about Irish grads getting back to the US for residency as well. I have found some papers on the NRMP site that have given me more insight on this topic, As expected, there is a somewhat negative correlation to be drawn about IMG's and competitive residency placements. The paper reports an overall decrease in the percentage of US IMGs placing into US residencies over the past 20-30 years. The problem is, NRMP lumps all the US IMGs into the same group, they don't separate the IMG's based off the country they attended school. So Irish, Australian, and Caribbean graduates (etc.) are all put into the same category for their statistical purposes.

Further, there are some competitive res programs out there that seem to not even consider IMGs, as being judged by the statistical data. For example, in 2010 zero US IMGs matched into US Dermatology residencies (Table 2, pg 5). This is alarming because Atlantic Bridge advertises 99% match rate for its Irish grads, which obviously must include some US natives. So my question is: are IMG's absolutely precluded from certain specialties in the US, or is the data on the NRMP paper merely reflective of a smaller number of native US Irish graduate students actually going for the competitive residencies in general. I realize one cannot make this direct correlation by looking at the NRMP data, but this is the issue I am trying to figure out. When I emailed NRMP with the same question, they replied that they do not keep data on this topic.

I know if you are going for family practice, or another less competitive residecy, you should have no problem getting back if you study in Ireland. And further, I know to a certain extent that this match issue definitely depends on the hospital/school's specific residency program, and obviously on the program director's opinions of IMGs at large. My impression from reading the threads on this site is that there is no blanketed motion to keep IMGs out of the system. There supposedly are residency programs out there that are more friendly to IMGs, even the competitive ones, albiet, they are few.

So long story short, I would really like to hear some bona fide experiences of US native, Irish graduate students placing into US residency programs. Any amount of insight will be appreciated.

And for good measure, here is the paper I am referencing above.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf
 
The US match this year is March 17 but the US Ophthalmology match is separate and has occurred. A Canadian RCSI student matched Ophtho this year so I guess Irish grads do get competitive residencies in the US. From my experience, it is much much much easier for an USIMG to match into the US. The minute you require a visa, and this includes Canadians, your chances of a competitive residency at a top program drops significantly. Your citizenship/greencard is priceless and I would take that over a 280 Step 1 score haha.
 
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arite man i apologize...say as you wish...but i used these forums all through med school for board exams and electives and applications and id rather have positive constructive comments for all those that are seeking advice and help but then again you can say what you want...

Handsome88 said:
WTF is wrong with you? First of all I wasn't talking to you. Also I can talk as much as I want, I'm not hurting you or anybody else. How you about you say something useful in response instead of being immature. I'm just letting you know this for your own good, take it or leave it.
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Id definitely take the 280 in step 1 lol.. from my personal experiences through interviews at some of the top IM programs (well funded programs to be more specific) many of them were content to pay to sponsor you for a visa if they felt your application was on par with the rest of the US students and for those random imgs i met the visa wasnt even an issue so for example if you have amazing board scores and research experience but no green card it shouldnt affect your application for some of the elite programs but when it came down to some of the smaller or "less well funded" university programs or community programs a green card is definitely valuable...i know for fellowship opportunities especially cardiology fellowship a green card is vital as many programs do not want to sponsor visas for IMGs especially when the talent pool is so competitive with US students and US IMGS...

Arb said:
The US match this year is March 17 but the US Ophthalmology match is separate and has occurred. A Canadian RCSI student matched Ophtho this year so I guess Irish grads do get competitive residencies in the US. From my experience, it is much much much easier for an USIMG to match into the US. The minute you require a visa, and this includes Canadians, your chances of a competitive residency at a top program drops significantly. Your citizenship/greencard is priceless and I would take that over a 280 Step 1 score haha.
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bigtymer said:
arite man i apologize...say as you wish...but i used these forums all through med school for board exams and electives and applications and id rather have positive constructive comments for all those that are seeking advice and help but then again you can say what you want...
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I used these forums since undergrad too and will probably use them through out the 4 years of med school. I appreciate any honest and realistic input from people.

My intention from the post was not to put people down or make RCSI students look bad at all. I just thought it would be good to know that there is that factor of "it's about who you know" too. Not all people who got into those surprisingly competitive specialties have done so without any help from someone up there. Just don't want people to be fooled and think it is easy.
 
LOL I would probably take the 280 too. That was hyperbole on my part. However, I know USIMGs who have far less impressive stats who not only receive more interviews but at more "prestigious" institutions. Not to mention fellowships and the whole headache of H1b and J1 visas. The US citizenship/greencard is gold. For those who are eligible, check out the greencard lottery that goes on every year. It's FREE to apply if you are eligible so give it a look.

bigtymer said:
Id definitely take the 280 in step 1 lol.. from my personal experiences through interviews at some of the top IM programs (well funded programs to be more specific) many of them were content to pay to sponsor you for a visa if they felt your application was on par with the rest of the US students and for those random imgs i met the visa wasnt even an issue so for example if you have amazing board scores and research experience but no green card it shouldnt affect your application for some of the elite programs but when it came down to some of the smaller or "less well funded" university programs or community programs a green card is definitely valuable...i know for fellowship opportunities especially cardiology fellowship a green card is vital as many programs do not want to sponsor visas for IMGs especially when the talent pool is so competitive with US students and US IMGS...
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bigtymer said:
Id definitely take the 280 in step 1 lol.. from my personal experiences through interviews at some of the top IM programs (well funded programs to be more specific) many of them were content to pay to sponsor you for a visa if they felt your application was on par with the rest of the US students and for those random imgs i met the visa wasnt even an issue so for example if you have amazing board scores and research experience but no green card it shouldnt affect your application for some of the elite programs but when it came down to some of the smaller or "less well funded" university programs or community programs a green card is definitely valuable...i know for fellowship opportunities especially cardiology fellowship a green card is vital as many programs do not want to sponsor visas for IMGs especially when the talent pool is so competitive with US students and US IMGS...
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Thanks, this is insightful and somewhat uplifting. Could you please explain more about what you mean by community and university programs.
 
I can't speak for the other schools because I am not in touch with what is going on with them but here is last year's match list for the US Match 2010 from RCSI. I remember wanting to know when I was applying/a student what the match outcomes actually were. Also, I know that everyone who applied for a position in the match last year did receive one. Finally, the matches listed below consist only of people who graduated in the class of 2010 and not those from RCSI who stayed to do intern year, SHO or whatever and then applied for the US Match. The dash and number indicates number matched to that institution.

General Surgery
Vermont - 1
Baylor Dallas - 1
UCSB - 1
Connecticut - 1 (not sure which institution in the state)
UTMB - 1

Internal Medicine
UTMB - 1
University of Nebraska - 1
Lahey Clinic - 1
Baystate - 2
University of Utah - 1
Mayo Clinic - 1
Cleveland Clinic - 1
UCSB - 1
Maine Medical Center - 1
New York - 1 (not sure which institution in the state)
Mayo Arizona - 1
Albert Einstein in NY - 1
Buffalo - 1

Emergency Medicine
UMich Ann Arbor - 1
UMich Detroit - 1
University of Nebraska - 1
Wash U - 1

Combined EM/IM
Univ of Delaware - 1

Peds
Philadelphia - 1 (not sure which institution)
Darthmouth Hitchcock - 1

Family Medicine
Syracuse NY - 1
Brown - 1

Anaesthesia
Baystate - 1

Ob/Gyn
Baystate - 1

This year remains to be seen! Best of luck to everyone in the match! :luck:
 
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LavenderLoraine said:
I can't speak for the other schools because I am not in touch with what is going on with them but here is last year's match list for the US Match 2010 from RCSI. I remember wanting to know when I was applying/a student what the match outcomes actually were. Also, I know that everyone who applied for a position in the match last year did receive one. Finally, the matches listed below consist only of people who graduated in the class of 2010 and not those from RCSI who stayed to do intern year, SHO or whatever and then applied for the US Match. The dash and number indicates number matched to that institution.

General Surgery
UVM-1
Baylor Dallas - 1
UCSB - 1
Connecticut - 1 (not sure which institution in the state)
UTMB - 1


This year remains to be seen! Best of luck to everyone in the match! :luck:
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Do you know if the GS ones are prelim or categorical?
Thanks for the list!!
 
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Sorry, Handsome, I should've mentioned for relevant spots listed (i.e. GS and IM) the matches were to categorical positions.
 
LavenderLoraine said:
Sorry, Handsome, I should've mentioned for relevant spots listed (i.e. GS and IM) the matches were to categorical positions.
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Where there more in the perlim spots or were they all able to match to a categorical one?
Also, are some of them Canadian or do they all have a US citizenship/GC?
 
This particular group all wanted categorical positions. I don't know if they applied for prelims spots as well. Some probably did. Most were American. A handful are Canadian. Some are from neither country (and do not have a green card).
 
LavenderLoraine said:
I can't speak for the other schools because I am not in touch with what is going on with them but here is last year's match list for the US Match 2010 from RCSI. I remember wanting to know when I was applying/a student what the match outcomes actually were. Also, I know that everyone who applied for a position in the match last year did receive one. Finally, the matches listed below consist only of people who graduated in the class of 2010 and not those from RCSI who stayed to do intern year, SHO or whatever and then applied for the US Match. The dash and number indicates number matched to that institution.

General Surgery
Vermont - 1
Baylor Dallas - 1
UCSB - 1
Connecticut - 1 (not sure which institution in the state)
UTMB - 1

Internal Medicine
UTMB - 1
University of Nebraska - 1
Lahey Clinic - 1
Baystate - 2
University of Utah - 1
Mayo Clinic - 1
Cleveland Clinic - 1
UCSB - 1
Maine Medical Center - 1
New York - 1 (not sure which institution in the state)
Mayo Arizona - 1
Albert Einstein in NY - 1
Buffalo - 1

Emergency Medicine
UMich Ann Arbor - 1
UMich Detroit - 1
University of Nebraska - 1
Wash U - 1

Combined EM/IM
Univ of Delaware - 1

Peds
Philadelphia - 1 (not sure which institution)
Darthmouth Hitchcock - 1

Family Medicine
Syracuse NY - 1
Brown - 1

Anaesthesia
Baystate - 1

Ob/Gyn
Baystate - 1

This year remains to be seen! Best of luck to everyone in the match! :luck:
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Thanks, Lavender. This is so helpful.
 
Hey Lavender,

Appreciate that post, very helpful indeed.

Following up Handsome88's question, those 5 categorical GSurg matches...do you know if they were American or non US IMG? I'm quite interested in GSurg categorical...but I have visa issues...
 
Blitz2006 said:
Hey Lavender,

Appreciate that post, very helpful indeed.

Following up Handsome88's question, those 5 categorical GSurg matches...do you know if they were American or non US IMG? I'm quite interested in GSurg categorical...but I have visa issues...
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A UCC grad in 2008 matched to a catagorical gen surg position in New York City somewhere and he was a Canadian with no green card. I don`t remember what kind of visa he ended up getting but it wasn`t a problem. Cheers,
M
 
Tachyon said:
student.ie,

This is bumping an old topic but would you care to share how you fared in the 2010 Match? Where are you now?
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Sorry I'm so slow to respond. I rarely look at this thread anymore.

I'm a fellow at a program attached to a top 5 medical school. That's a specific as I'd like to get. You might be surprised that I don't write on here because I'm bitter about my own experience. I'm perfectly happy how things ended up for me. I write in here because I don't think people should make the same mistake I did. Or at least you should know what you are getting into without the salemanship and rose-colored glasses. Some of my friends in Ireland did quite well, though often not really in their specialty of choice, others didn't. I'm doing well and there's no specialty I'd prefer to be in or anything like that.
 
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LavenderLoraine said:
I can't speak for the other schools because I am not in touch with what is going on with them but here is last year's match list for the US Match 2010 from RCSI. I remember wanting to know when I was applying/a student what the match outcomes actually were. Also, I know that everyone who applied for a position in the match last year did receive one. Finally, the matches listed below consist only of people who graduated in the class of 2010 and not those from RCSI who stayed to do intern year, SHO or whatever and then applied for the US Match. The dash and number indicates number matched to that institution.

General Surgery
Vermont - 1
Baylor Dallas - 1
UCSB - 1
Connecticut - 1 (not sure which institution in the state)
UTMB - 1

Internal Medicine
UTMB - 1
University of Nebraska - 1
Lahey Clinic - 1
Baystate - 2
University of Utah - 1
Mayo Clinic - 1
Cleveland Clinic - 1
UCSB - 1
Maine Medical Center - 1
New York - 1 (not sure which institution in the state)
Mayo Arizona - 1
Albert Einstein in NY - 1
Buffalo - 1

Emergency Medicine
UMich Ann Arbor - 1
UMich Detroit - 1
University of Nebraska - 1
Wash U - 1

Combined EM/IM
Univ of Delaware - 1

Peds
Philadelphia - 1 (not sure which institution)
Darthmouth Hitchcock - 1

Family Medicine
Syracuse NY - 1
Brown - 1

Anaesthesia
Baystate - 1

Ob/Gyn
Baystate - 1

This year remains to be seen! Best of luck to everyone in the match! :luck:
Click to expand...

This is probably a pretty good list to give you an idea of what's possible. Mostly primary care, mostly at not very competitive locations, but at perfectly respectable training programs. A couple of programs that are really competitive. What you don't see in a list like this is the people who failed the usmle or went unmatched or wanted radiology but matched in medicine (not that there's anything wrong with medicine).
 
That 2010 RCSI class was the year when no one went unmatched....
However, this year has been has not been as fortunate and RCSI has ~10 students going unmatched so don't follow trends and make yourself competitive! To clarify the post above, Internal Medicine is not primary care. Especially not in Canada which has little ambulatory med training.

For UCD this year, their students have matched General Surgery, Internal Medicine, Orthopedics Surgery, etc.

For the specific UCD US Match:

ALL UNIVERSITY programs, no community program matches
ALL first choice specialties with 100% no compromise
ALL without American citizenship/green cards
ALL Categorical positions

1 Emergency Medicine
1 Family Medicine
3 Internal Medicine (Dartmouth, Johns Hopkins University Osler x2)

As you can see, the Johns Hopkins IMs were the most competitive match out of all UCD results. One person went unmatched who only applied to Canada. There are 3 Americans graduating and none applied for the match.


For UCC, one person (Canadian) entered the US Match and landed a 6 year Interventional Radiology spot in Minnesota.
 
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That's pretty impressive that there was an Ortho match this year. Do you know where this person matched? US or Canada? Is it unusual for someone to match into Ortho or does this happen for a couple students every year? Thanks
 
It's not that unusual per se. There were 4 Irish students who matched Ortho last year. There are 2 that I know of this year (RCSI, UCD). There are very few IMG spots but they have relatively fewer applicants as well. Forum member jnuts is one. The UCD student matched in Ottawa. I don't want to say on a whim but let's just say he messed around a lot during interviews ;). I would like to think he is a strong candidate! I was greatly surprised at the Johns Hopkins matches.
 
so ~10 students in rcsi went unmatched, hmmmmm. I am interested in this year's rcsi match list if anyone has that.
 
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Arb said:
That 2010 RCSI class was the year where no one went unmatched....
However, this year has been has not been as fortunate and RCSI has ~10 students going unmatched so don't follow trends and make yourself competitive! To clarify the post above, Internal Medicine is not primary care. Especially not in Canada which does no ambulatory med training.
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Hmmm...did those unmatched people not get one of their top two or three residencies or just not match at all? Hopefully it's not from a lack of effort on their part :/
 
akaVonk said:
Hmmm...did those unmatched people not get one of their top two or three residencies or just not match at all? Hopefully it's not from a lack of effort on their part :/
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When arb says "unmatched" he means "completely unmatched". These were competitive applicants as well. The competition to match in Canada (and the US) is increasing, especially in primary care specialties such as Family Medicine and Pediatrics.

Those that matched did so with a combination of hard work and (dare I say it) luck.

Cheers,

Jocks
 
They must have done something different from the 2010 match students (or there was a lot more rcsi applicants in 2011) because I doubt competition significantly increased over one year. Perhaps they did not apply broadly enough, applied only to Canada, or were less competitive.

What about the other students that did match, any info on them?
 
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Things are getting more competitive and it doesn't take a significant increase to have 10 people go unmatched. I believe it's the increased competitiveness in the medical and primary care specialties as Jocks said. The students are the same. One class is like any other.

UCC ~3 unmatched
UCD ~1

University of Toronto class of 2010, arguably the best medical school in Canada, had ~10 go unmatched (1st round or completely).
 
This thread is "The US Match and Irish grads"

If you could stop hijacking it with talk about Canada, it'd be nice.

By all means, talk about the match in Canada, just start another thread for it.
 
Yes and I think we discussed the US Match and Irish grads mostly which includes Canadians and some mentioning of CaRMS.

As stated above: UCD 5, UCC 1, RSCI ~20

There really is no need to see a match list. Graduates have matched into pretty much every specialty at various institutions.
"Desirable" specialties? Yes
Competitive institutions? Yes
It won't be the school that will hold you back. Obviously not everyone can match to MGH but even Harvard Medical School students match into community programs.
 
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How many USIMGs in Ireland end up staying there for a year or more either because they didn't match, didn't have their exams finished, or just wanted to stay?
 
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Jocks said:
When arb says "unmatched" he means "completely unmatched". These were competitive applicants as well. The competition to match in Canada (and the US) is increasing, especially in primary care specialties such as Family Medicine and Pediatrics.

Those that matched did so with a combination of hard work and (dare I say it) luck.

Cheers,

Jocks
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I'm starting to notice that there is a huge misconception about what is competitive. On one hand I see applicants to Orthopedic surgery all get matched (and...Interventional Radiology??? Hard to believe. Maybe true but very hard to believe...). On the other hand, applicants to primary care and to other specialties that were thought to be not so competitive, are not matching AT ALL.

Is there an explanation to this?
 
Arb said:
1 Emergency Medicine
1 Family Medicine
3 Internal Medicine (Dartmouth, Johns Hopkins University Osler x2)


For UCC, one person (Canadian) entered the US Match and landed a 6 year Interventional Radiology spot in Minnesota.
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I asked the person who matched to Dartmouth IM if it was true that there were two people matched at JHU from UCD, and (s)he denied it. I'm getting mixed information here.

Also, do you know how that person matched into IR when the US graduates are killing themselves to get a Diagnostic radiology position, let alone an interventional, and this guy isn't even american?
 
GypsySongman said:
How many USIMGs in Ireland end up staying there for a year or more either because they didn't match, didn't have their exams finished, or just wanted to stay?
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In my class of 2007 year at Trinity, 4 Americans stayed (3 because we wanted to even though we had all our exams done, and 1 because exams weren't done yet and I think 2 canadians (who had EU passports). All subsequently matched the following year, except the canadian who had decided to go to NZ for training. But I just want you to realize that the opportunity for non-EU citizens to stay for internship in Ireland has changed a lot since I graduated and this is no longer an option for many people. Do not count on having an Irish internship as a backup.

Also, from my side of things since I have been active in the last couple years giving interviews, it is definitely getting harder for FMGs of any nationality to match. Our program was told to decrease the number of FMG spots and increase the number of AMG spots. Other programs are doing the same. Considering that EM was one of the very competitive fields this year, it seems to be that this is the trend right now.

Not to scare anyone, but seriously if you are in IRL or overseas in general, do whatever you can to make yourself competitive. Some very competitive FMGs who would have been great for any program they interviewed at did not match at all.
 
Ask him/her again.

The UCC student is a strong applicant. There's no secret to this.

leorl speaks the truth as always.
 
Handsome88 said:
I asked the person who matched to Dartmouth IM if it was true that there were two people matched at JHU from UCD, and (s)he denied it. I'm getting mixed information here.

Also, do you know how that person matched into IR when the US graduates are killing themselves to get a Diagnostic radiology position, let alone an interventional, and this guy isn't even american?
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-- the people who matched to hopkins were definitely not from our class - i heard from Arb the other day that they were registrars/previous UCD graduates. sorry 88, didn't know that when i talked to you...
 
leorl said:
In my class of 2007 year at Trinity, 4 Americans stayed (3 because we wanted to even though we had all our exams done, and 1 because exams weren't done yet and I think 2 canadians (who had EU passports). All subsequently matched the following year, except the canadian who had decided to go to NZ for training. But I just want you to realize that the opportunity for non-EU citizens to stay for internship in Ireland has changed a lot since I graduated and this is no longer an option for many people. Do not count on having an Irish internship as a backup.

Also, from my side of things since I have been active in the last couple years giving interviews, it is definitely getting harder for FMGs of any nationality to match. Our program was told to decrease the number of FMG spots and increase the number of AMG spots. Other programs are doing the same. Considering that EM was one of the very competitive fields this year, it seems to be that this is the trend right now.

Not to scare anyone, but seriously if you are in IRL or overseas in general, do whatever you can to make yourself competitive. Some very competitive FMGs who would have been great for any program they interviewed at did not match at all.
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The Americans in our class (3 of them) all chose to abstain from the match. 2 have irish passports and are thinking of staying here permanently, 1 is staying for family reasons.

To the OP, part of the reason the issue of canadians constantly come up is that we make up the VAST majority of NA students studying here (although this is changing). So when discussions regarding the NRMP come up...it's usually about canadians in the match.

Cheers,

Jocks
 
Jocks said:
The Americans in our class (3 of them) all chose to abstain from the match. 2 have irish passports and are thinking of staying here permanently, 1 is staying for family reasons.

To the OP, part of the reason the issue of canadians constantly come up is that we make up the VAST majority of NA students studying here (although this is changing). So when discussions regarding the NRMP come up...it's usually about canadians in the match.

Cheers,

Jocks
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I'm all for people talking about the Canadian match, there's just no reason for every thread has to be about it. This one is about the US match.
 
I am a 3rd year student in the graduate entry program at RCSI and I just heard the match results for 2011. We had a great year.

39/40 people who entered were matched, including final years and people who stayed for an intern year. ~95% matched into their top 3.

They should be sending us a summary document, but here is what I remember from the presentation.

2 - radiology
2 - optho

multiple general surgery including New York Pres/Cornell, University of Washington

multiple internal med including Univ. Pennsylvania, Mayo Scottsdale

Pediatrics at Baystate
Emergency Med at Baystate

1- prelim surgery at Johns Hopkins

I don't remember all the details, but everyone seemed really happy with the results.
 
Nice, glad to see some first hand info from an RCSI student. Good match. I am not sure where the other posters got their stats.
 
wow great news! Only one unmatched?

I hope they send the document around to other Irish schools :p
 
That's not true. I have personally spoken to 2 RCSI students already who did not match. ~10 went unmatched this year from multiple sources. 39/40 is 100% false.
 
Arb said:
That's not true. I have personally spoken to 2 RCSI students already who did not match. ~10 went unmatched this year from multiple sources. 39/40 is 100% false.
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Well it's your word against ClenKeane's. Unless you're an RCSI student yourself and have more firsthand info than his, don't talk about secondhand info that you can't claim 100% certainty for.
 
You do realize his is second hand information too right? That's not to say his stat wasn't given out and that he is lying; I'm just saying it's not true but, obviously it's much harder to accept. And how would you get first hand info anyways? What about me actually talking to and knowing RCSI students rather than attending a presentation?
 
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Well, it's a little hard to decide who to believe in this case. If he/she is indeed a student at RCSI and attended a school-given presentation, I don't see why they would give incorrect figures. Of course, I also can't say why they conflict with the info you got from people you know at RCSI. So we're at a bit of an impasse here.
 
It is unlikely for RCSI to release false information to its students. The 2011 match is in high correlation with the 2010 match data. I am more likely to believe a common trend reported by an RCSI student rather an apocalyptic scenario claimed by anonymous. Sorry Arb, no disrespect.

CleanKean's post was only a summary of the presentation. According to him, RCSI is going to release a full document on the match. I might just call up RCSI and ask them to mail it to me.
 
First, RCSI doesn't release any information because RCSI doesn't have any data. It's the STUDENTS who organize all the data and who actually gave the presentation. This is the same for all schools and it's a tradition for the North American graduating class. It's one of the traditions I like the most so when you read about a presentation in the archives of this forum, they were student presentations.

The administration of any school is not involved at all and does not know who matched in Canada. In fact, my school contacted us to ask where we matched and if it was our first choice. They do have the dean's portal so can get the NRMP results if they choose to download it but I don't think they know how to do that.

It doesn't matter how this year's class did or the next year's class. It tells you nothing on how you will do. BTW, I have seen the match list for RCSI, UCD, Trinity, and UCC from CIMSA. Two people on this board actually have a copy...
 
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