The Topic of Money

[dilatate]

My question is this: Why do people become disgusted when someone asks about MONEY?

Common responses to the question: "How much money can I expect to make?"
1. If you are in it for the money, get out now.
I have never heard of someone expressly stating that they are in it for the money, but medical students/professionals feel the need to vehemently deny that there is good money to be made in medicine, especially when compared to other fields. The fact remains, there IS good money to be made in medicine. The desire to be well-off or even wealthy does not conflict with the desire to "help people".

2. If you are concerned about money, you are better off in business.
First, I have never met anyone that is not concerned about money. Medical professionals more than anyone should know that money determines outcomes in all aspects of life, mental and physical health included. Second, have you met medical students? As a former businessman in one of the most cut-throat businesses out there, I can tell you that I would eat most of my classmates alive in the business world and have their children for dessert. Of course they are intelligent, but that does not cut it in business (neither does hard work).

3. It is too early to be worried about this as a medical student.
False. This is the time address this topic because most medical student's incomes will be determined by the specialty they choose. Unless you are a entrepreneur (see #2), then your major source of income will be your medical practice.

So to all of you exceedingly paternalistic people who have responded this way to the said question, justify yourselves. To all the medical students who have been shamed into never discussing this with colleagues, please take this opportunity to discuss. Thanks.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Isoprop]

for some students, medicine will really be the first job they ever had. i mean, they may have had a part-time gig in undergrad or even a full-time research position in the summer, but not many have had to support themselves/families FULLY. so there's some naivete around the financial issues.

 

[njbmd]

Moving to Business of Medicine as this is a business topic.

 

[DadofDr2B]

Those who do not care about money are either rich or they do not mind being poor. Anyone else cares about the money.

As a person who grew up without a lot of things, money is important.

 

[Doublecortin]

My question is this: Why do people become disgusted when someone asks about MONEY?

Common responses to the question: "How much money can I expect to make?"
1. If you are in it for the money, get out now.
I have never heard of someone expressly stating that they are in it for the money, but medical students/professionals feel the need to vehemently deny that there is good money to be made in medicine, especially when compared to other fields. The fact remains, there IS good money to be made in medicine. The desire to be well-off or even wealthy does not conflict with the desire to "help people".

2. If you are concerned about money, you are better off in business.
First, I have never met anyone that is not concerned about money. Medical professionals more than anyone should know that money determines outcomes in all aspects of life, mental and physical health included. Second, have you met medical students? As a former businessman in one of the most cut-throat businesses out there, I can tell you that I would eat most of my classmates alive in the business world and have their children for dessert. Of course they are intelligent, but that does not cut it in business (neither does hard work).

3. It is too early to be worried about this as a medical student.
False. This is the time address this topic because most medical student's incomes will be determined by the specialty they choose. Unless you are a entrepreneur (see #2), then your major source of income will be your medical practice.

So to all of you exceedingly paternalistic people who have responded this way to the said question, justify yourselves. To all the medical students who have been shamed into never discussing this with colleagues, please take this opportunity to discuss. Thanks.

god bless you, bro! the exact same thoughts are on my mind too. I think one of the reasons why doctors are being taken advantage of by scumbag politicians and dirtbag insurance companies, why doctors are being told how to practice medicine by riffraff with high school education is that it was well ingrained in the medical education of the past generations that you are just not supposed to utter the "m" word. Our generation needs to break the mold and start taking charge of our finances and begin to reassert ourselves!

 

[cardboardearrin]

god bless you, bro! the exact same thoughts are on my mind too. I think one of the reasons why doctors are being taken advantage of by scumbag politicians and dirtbag insurance companies, why doctors are being told how to practice medicine by riffraff with high school education is that it was well ingrained in the medical education of the past generations that you are just not supposed to utter the "m" word. Our generation needs to break the mold and start taking charge of our finances and begin to reassert ourselves!

Agreed. Medicine is not a volunteer position. It is a job, just like any other, which people too often forget. It is always good to like what you do for a living, but is most important to get paid appropriately for it.

I think it's ridiculous for people to pretend that doctors don't care what kind of money they make. Even a cashier at McDonald's cares about what kind of money they make. If you put effort into the training of a certain profession, you expect to eventually reap the rewards. That's just how life is....

unless, of course, you are pursuing medicine, in which case you are expected to give up all your worldly possessions and service the poor for no compensation at all

 

[dilatate]

Thank you for your responses. I think we need to get more of a discussion going here...

So yes, I agree that a large part of the blame for the current situation in medicine, i.e. patient dissatisfaction, doctor dissatisfaction, etc. rests squarely upon the shoulders of doctors. We think that it is enough to just do the work-up, medicate/operate, and discharge. How many of your attendings consider the bills these patients are going home to?

At the same time, primary care doctors are getting screwed and must compromise (7 mins per patient, no matter how good your are, IS going to compromise patient care) patient care to be able to have a good living. Other docs, e.g. every doctor in the state of Illinois, are seeking alternate careers after 10+ years of training due to malpractice insurance and reimbursement cuts. The fact is, unhappy doctors are bad doctors.

Doctors aren't unhappy? 1. Look at the numerous studies asking this directly or asking "if you had to do it all over again..." Even the classically well paid Cardiologist want to jump ship. 2. Have you been in a hospital lately. How many of your attendings walk out of a patient's room and instantly roll their eyes, make a snide remark or both. How many nurses bitch about doing things that are well within their job description. Sometimes, I just want to say...Isn't that what you are being paid for?

Ofcourse, many of these reactions are just defense mechanisms necessary for dealing with the misery and pain one sees on a daily basis. But, many are also responses to the malfunctioning system and declining reward.

Yet, medicine is one of the most profitable businesses out there. Someone is getting paid...Pharmaceutical companies, Insurance companies and Lawyers. And while we sit there with our mouths full of yet another "free" lunch and our thumbs up our asses they are compromising patient care and booking plane tickets to a vacation in St. Barts.

Chew on that.

 

[thesauce]

As a person who grew up without a lot of things, money is important.

As a person who grew up without a lot of things, money isn't that important

Okay I'll jump in...

First, the aversion to conversations about money is largely for the public's "benefit." Doctors don't go around boasting their huge incomes, because that changes public perception of them and they become a target to lawyers and others trying to make a quick buck. You may think that everyone knows doctors make a lot, but I can't tell you how many patients I've had that have said "oh, you're in medical school, that's so sweet. There's so few people that want to do it anymore because the money is so bad" Perfect! Our goal is to illicit sympathy from the public and to a large extent, it has worked.

Secondly, I can say that the reason I get disgusted talking about money in medicine is that I think medical students and doctors take the money issue too far. I had a discussion with a classmate not too long ago who said that she needed to make 300K a year to be "comfortable." Give me a break! 300K a year is a ridiculous amount of money. And if 300K isn't enough (which to her, it won't be) then 400K, 500K, 1M, 2M will never be. As someone who grew up in a family of 5 with a household income of 40K, I can speak from experience that you don't need money to be happy. And that's my primary goal.

An aside: I think what my classmates intend to do with their money is just plain stupid. They want to buy an upscale house and 2 BMWs and a huge boat (that they'll use once a year) and eat out at all the fancy restaurants and attend lavish social occasions, etc. etc. etc. I think that's a bunch of garbage. They want all that because that's what their parents did so they think they need all that stuff. Meanwhile, they have to take out loans for all of their education because their parents don't make enough to "help them."

But back to what some have said, I agree that more financial education is necessary in medical school so that we can stop being taken advantage of. I personally would take a substantial salary cut as a physician to not have to deal with all of the crap from insurance companies, lawyers, etc.

 

[DadofDr2B]

As a person who grew up without a lot of things, money isn't that important

Okay I'll jump in...

First, the aversion to conversations about money is largely for the public's "benefit." Doctors don't go around boasting their huge incomes, because that changes public perception of them and they become a target to lawyers and others trying to make a quick buck. You may think that everyone knows doctors make a lot, but I can't tell you how many patients I've had that have said "oh, you're in medical school, that's so sweet. There's so few people that want to do it anymore because the money is so bad" Perfect! Our goal is to illicit sympathy from the public and to a large extent, it has worked.

Secondly, I can say that the reason I get disgusted talking about money in medicine is that I think medical students and doctors take the money issue too far. I had a discussion with a classmate not too long ago who said that she needed to make 300K a year to be "comfortable." Give me a break! 300K a year is a ridiculous amount of money. And if 300K isn't enough (which to her, it won't be) then 400K, 500K, 1M, 2M will never be. As someone who grew up in a family of 5 with a household income of 40K, I can speak from experience that you don't need money to be happy. And that's my primary goal.

An aside: I think what my classmates intend to do with their money is just plain stupid. They want to buy an upscale house and 2 BMWs and a huge boat (that they'll use once a year) and eat out at all the fancy restaurants and attend lavish social occasions, etc. etc. etc. I think that's a bunch of garbage. They want all that because that's what their parents did so they think they need all that stuff. Meanwhile, they have to take out loans for all of their education because their parents don't make enough to "help them."

But back to what some have said, I agree that more financial education is necessary in medical school so that we can stop being taken advantage of. I personally would take a substantial salary cut as a physician to not have to deal with all of the crap from insurance companies, lawyers, etc.

www.simplecare.com

 

[yohimbine1]

Moving to Business of Medicine as this is a business topic.

OP--your points are valid. But they will only be understood by the type that visits this forum.

 

[MSKalltheway]

Secondly, I can say that the reason I get disgusted talking about money in medicine is that I think medical students and doctors take the money issue too far. I had a discussion with a classmate not too long ago who said that she needed to make 300K a year to be "comfortable." Give me a break! 300K a year is a ridiculous amount of money. And if 300K isn't enough (which to her, it won't be) then 400K, 500K, 1M, 2M will never be. As someone who grew up in a family of 5 with a household income of 40K, I can speak from experience that you don't need money to be happy. And that's my primary goal.

For me, this is the only beef I have when talking money with students. I dont have a problem if anyone says they want to make a lot of money, I'm all good with that. You worked hard for your education and you should be compensated accordingly. The thing is, it makes me mad when, for instance, I heard a girl say "I'm gonna go into Plastics or something, cause Family Med cant get me a house like this" as she points to a home as we drive by. I'm def said, ummmm, yeah you could afford that on an FM salary.

OP, I think you see it differently because med students/physicians are crappy business(wo)men, and you used to be in business. In the culture of medicine its in our heads that the salary we get is the only way to make a ton, so you need to go into a specialty that reimburses well. Whatever happened to thinking outside the box...DIVERSIFYING????

If you want to make a killing in FM, maybe live in a less saturated area and have a lot of skills. Own your x-ray machine. Do a sports med fellowship, then you can do some quick MSK stuff and know how to do joint injections which pay well. If you can do more than two things in any specialty and work where demand > supply you'll be good.

I can see how some people can get annoyed when asking about pay. Its just because it seems like no one thinks. I think we are in school so long that sometimes people dont realize that doing things like investing in stock, flipping houses, starting a small business, etc is what will make you a killing. Its also mostly those who came right out of college or are only 1-2 years out that talk this stuff.

Trust me, I want to make a lot too, but statements like those I highlighted above are pretty annoying. What you "want" and what you "need" are completely different. I think if people went about it more like "what can I do with the money I make to do even better" that would be a more practical way of going about it instead of saying "I must have 600K a year or I wont be happy and pay off my loans". America was built with the purpose of making as much money as you want if you want. However, it is not realistic to expect you'll do that off your base salary anymore...its no longer the 80's. And to say you "need" many hundreds of thousands to be happy, dont think anyone will cry you a river.

 

[radslooking]

god bless you, bro! the exact same thoughts are on my mind too. I think one of the reasons why doctors are being taken advantage of by scumbag politicians and dirtbag insurance companies, why doctors are being told how to practice medicine by riffraff with high school education is that it was well ingrained in the medical education of the past generations that you are just not supposed to utter the "m" word. Our generation needs to break the mold and start taking charge of our finances and begin to reassert ourselves!

yep. i was one of the naive shamed med students, and it sort of hurt me. I plan to become much more financially savvy and proactive from now on.

 

[anamod]

This is bit off topic but would you go into medicine if it paid 40,000 a year? My wife and I are both dentists and both love what we do but if you told me my income would cut to 40,000 a year I would look for other work that day. As medical professionals you put up with a lot of B.S. to make that much a year.

And being curious about income is a very good question. When I was in dental school and a predent I was always curious about what I could earn. Did this determine my career path? No, but it was piece of mind knowing I would be ok. This is why I have always been very open with my production and income numbers to predents and dental students and will answer most questions about the topic.