The title of "neurologist"

[medsRus]

I've been wondering, when can a doctor call herself a "neurologist"?

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[typhoonegator]

When you graduate from an accredited neurology residency, pass the boards, and get your ABPN Certificate.

 

[medsRus]

When you graduate from an accredited neurology residency, pass the boards, and get your ABPN Certificate.

Really, does the ABPN control the use of the title Neurologist in the US?

 

[PhakeDoc]

Really, does the ABPN control the use of the title Neurologist in the US?

I'm not sure why the need for your antagonistic reply to a simple answer to your question. If you want to call yourself a neurologist now, by all means go ahead. I'm sure your attendings and chiefs will love that. If it impresses the girls and helps you get laid, by all means, do whatever you need to. The truest test, I think, is looking at yourself in the mirror and seeing if you can call yourself one.

 

[medsRus]

I'm not sure why the need for your antagonistic reply to a simple answer to your question. If you want to call yourself a neurologist now, by all means go ahead. I'm sure your attendings and chiefs will love that. If it impresses the girls and helps you get laid, by all means, do whatever you need to. The truest test, I think, is looking at yourself in the mirror and seeing if you can call yourself one.

I didn't mean to be antagonizing. Actually, it was a serious question. I know that State Medical Boards control the use of the "M.D." or "doctor" titles. Curious on specialties (i.e. neurology).

 

[PhakeDoc]

I didn't mean to be antagonizing. Actually, it was a serious question. I know that State Medical Boards control the use of the "M.D." or "doctor" titles. Curious on specialties (i.e. neurology).

Fair enough - it's sometimes hard to distinguish tone/intent electronically. I'm not sure how the FSMB can control the "Doctor" part since Ph.D.s, etc., are also referred to as such professionally.

 

[burs0028]

I've always considered a person able to call themselves by their specialty title once they finish residency. Some never pass their boards, but are still referred to as a "neurologist" because that is what they practice. Most docs have to wait at least a couple months after graduating to sit for the boards anyway so I don't really view that as a qualifier.

Perhaps being "board eligible" and actively involved in the field would be the most appropriate qualifiers.

 

[neurolddoc]

I think a reasonable definition of a neurologist is one who has finished residency. Nobody controls the term in a legal sense.

State medical boards control who can practice medicine, not who calls themself "doctor". You will find that DDS, DVM, PhD, PharmD, OD, DPM all call themselves "doctor"

 

[medsRus]

You surely are wrong on this one. With the title "M.D.", MANY state licensing boards actually regulate who can use the title after their name. There was a famous case in Kansas, but I forgot the names involved... Anyone feel free to chime in...

 

[neurolddoc]

Can you cite a specific example? (capitalizing MANY fails to persuade me)

As for Kansas, the following is from their Rules and Regs concerning liscensure:

K.A.R. 100-6-3. Approved school of medicine and surgery. (a) Each school of medicine and surgery seeking approval pursuant to L. 1985, Ch. 216, Sec. 3, shall on balance meet the following minimum standards:
(1) The school shall be accredited by the liaison committee on medical education of the association of American medical colleges or the council on medical education of the American medical association, the American osteopathic association bureau of professional education and the committee on postdoctoral training or the committee on accreditation of Canadian medical schools of the association of Canadian medical colleges and the Canadian medical association.
(2) The school shall have been approved for licensure in other states or its students shall have been authorized to perform clerkships or postgraduate training in other states.
(3) The school shall have been in existence for a sufficient number of years to ensure that an adequate program has been developed;
(4) The school shall be located in a college that is legally recognized and authorized by the jurisdiction in which it is located to confer the M.D. or D.O. degree.


Item 4 indicates that the MD degree, which is conferred by an academic institution, is one of many necessary prerequisites to become liscensed to practice medicine. They do not regulate who calls themself an MD.

 

[BlackFrancis33]

If you want to be PC you can be a board-eligible neurologist and then a board certified neurologist once you get your ABPN certificate. Probably not such a big deal to be a board eligible neurologist your first couple of years out of training. It probably doesn't look as good if you are board-eligible neurologist 10 years later, right?

 

[medsRus]

Can you cite a specific example? (capitalizing MANY fails to persuade me)

As for Kansas, the following is from their Rules and Regs concerning liscensure:

K.A.R. 100-6-3. Approved school of medicine and surgery. (a) Each school of medicine and surgery seeking approval pursuant to L. 1985, Ch. 216, Sec. 3, shall on balance meet the following minimum standards:
(1) The school shall be accredited by the liaison committee on medical education of the association of American medical colleges or the council on medical education of the American medical association, the American osteopathic association bureau of professional education and the committee on postdoctoral training or the committee on accreditation of Canadian medical schools of the association of Canadian medical colleges and the Canadian medical association.
(2) The school shall have been approved for licensure in other states or its students shall have been authorized to perform clerkships or postgraduate training in other states.
(3) The school shall have been in existence for a sufficient number of years to ensure that an adequate program has been developed;
(4) The school shall be located in a college that is legally recognized and authorized by the jurisdiction in which it is located to confer the M.D. or D.O. degree.


Item 4 indicates that the MD degree, which is conferred by an academic institution, is one of many necessary prerequisites to become liscensed to practice medicine. They do not regulate who calls themself an MD.

From the AMA,

A recent case in Kansas illustrates the laws concerning use of MD. An oral surgeon who received a doctor of medicine (MD) degree from a medical school outside the U.S. had used the MD initials after his name in his professional practice. The Kansas Court of Appeals and the Kansas State Board of Healing Arts ruled that he could not use the MD initials in his practice because although he was licensed as an oral surgeon, he was not licensed to practice medicine.

 

[neurolddoc]

There are several neurologists in my area who have practiced for years and have never become board certified. In outpatient practice, most referring physicians don't have a clue whether a specialist is boarded or not. Most hospitals have a requirement that staff members become boarded within a certain period of time.

 

[neurolddoc]

It's a strange situation with a dentist (also?) having an MD. What about the situation where an IMG has an MD degree from somewhere but is not liscensed to practice medicine in a US state. Is it legal for him to use MD after his/her name in a non-professional sense, say in a listing of donors to a charitable cause?

Also note that my original post referred to use of the term "doctor" and "neurologist"

 

[medsRus]

It's a strange situation with a dentist (also?) having an MD. What about the situation where an IMG has an MD degree from somewhere but is not liscensed to practice medicine in a US state. Is it legal for him to use MD after his/her name in a non-professional sense, say in a listing of donors to a charitable cause?

Also note that my original post referred to use of the term "doctor" and "neurologist"

Don't know, but you can see how boards control the use of MD.

 

[Suenya]

I'm actually rather surprised by these responses. At least informally (as opposed to what they would call each other officially, maybe), the ER residents and attendings call our psych residents psychiatrists. And they tend to call the pediatrics residents pediatricians. They also refer to themselves similarly.

Is the difference just whether its formal or not, or do other hospitals really have a different sort of culture/language for things like this?

 

[GopherBrain]

I'm with Suenya. There is a difference between when you can refer to yourself as a neurologist when speaking to a patient, and when you can go out and have stationary printed...

 

[medsRus]

I'm actually rather surprised by these responses. At least informally (as opposed to what they would call each other officially, maybe), the ER residents and attendings call our psych residents psychiatrists. And they tend to call the pediatrics residents pediatricians. They also refer to themselves similarly.

Is the difference just whether its formal or not, or do other hospitals really have a different sort of culture/language for things like this?

I thought this as well...

 

[typhoonegator]

People can call me anything they want (and frequently do). Plenty of ER docs called me "the neurologist" or, more frequently, "neuro" when I was a resident. But I never once referred to myself as anything more than the "neurology resident" (or "neurology senior resident" when it applied) up through the day I graduated. When people asked, I explained what that meant. I think it is important to give patients a clear understanding of the hierarchy from the get-go. Having been named in a lawsuit, I can tell you that the way you represent yourself to the patient is something the lawyers definitely care about, and can be of critical importance.

Humility is a virtue. Striding in as a PGY-2 and telling a stroke patient and their family that you are "The Neurologist" is pretty disingenuous, in my opinion. Your medical assessment at that level is simply not that of a trained neurologist. You'll get there, but that's why we train. What are you going to tell them in clinic when you need to run the case by your attending? "Well, I'm your neurologist, but there is yet another neurologist who holds sway over me. I'm going to go speak to her now, neurologist-to-neurologist. Then I, your neurologist, will come back with her, your other neurologist, to discuss your treatment some more."

Trust me, if you're upfront with your patient, they will still call you their neurologist. Treat them well and they will love you and respect you. They will tell their friends about you, "my neurologist", and recommend you to them. The actual attending neurologist that stopped by for 5 minutes at the end of the visit? They won't remember him or her nearly as well as you. Be comfortable with that and less concerned with the title you give yourself.

I'm heading into my PGY-6 year, and I'm still just the neuro-ICU fellow to my patients, despite the fact that I'm fully boarded and licensed as a neurologist. From the outside, the hospital is a black box to most people. Understanding everyone's role is very helpful to patients and families.

Now, what title you give yourself to your Great Aunt Matilda when you see her next Guy Fawkes day, I could care less. Tell her you're the Prime Minister of Neuroscience, Wielder of the Golden Talisman of Homunculus and Tamer of the Artery of Percheron. Tell her you're a Neurologist with a capital N. But on that first day of neurology residency, be honest with your patients. You're a junior neurology resident -- an intern with a reflex hammer and a smile -- and be glad you have a senior and an attending to run your cases by.

 

[PhakeDoc]

... From the outside, the hospital is a black box to most people. ...

This particular point is made even worse since everybody, their mother, brother, step-uncle thrice removed and their tattoo parlor artist wears a friggin' long white coat. I was at an interview where there was a woman with a long white coat on the floor team. Since she wasn't speaking much and had no nametag, I thought perhaps she was a rotating intern or an observer. Turns out she was a nursing student!

 

[neurolddoc]

Having been named in a lawsuit, I can tell you that the way you represent yourself to the patient is something the lawyers definitely care about, and can be of critical importance.

TN speaks the truth. The issue of whether you are an employee or agent of the hospital is of great importance and is explored in detail if you are unlucky enough to be deposed. The patient (plaintiff) and other family members will also be deposed in great detail about what you said (or what they think you said), so not creating any false impressions is an excellent policy.

 

[Raggaman]

Prime Minister of Neuroscience, Wielder of the Golden Talisman of Homunculus and Tamer of the Artery of Percheron

HAHAHA!

 

[JosephScotLacek]

Ehyyyy.... What's up Doc?

 

[Acherona]

This particular point is made even worse since everybody, their mother, brother, step-uncle thrice removed and their tattoo parlor artist wears a friggin' long white coat. I was at an interview where there was a woman with a long white coat on the floor team. Since she wasn't speaking much and had no nametag, I thought perhaps she was a rotating intern or an observer. Turns out she was a nursing student!

Oh my gawd! What has the world come to! Newsflash, this is a free country and people can wear whatever they want, doctors don't own particular garments. Why does your clothing have to represent your role anyway like a McDonalds. Other places don't work like that. In business everyone just where's a suit it doesn't matter where you are on the hierarchy. If people want to know who you are you can tell them or look on your nametag or (hopefully) get the picture from how you talk to them.