The Purpose of Studying Pointless First 2 year Courses

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Saved Satan

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So many people I've talked to, both doctors and residents, downright state not only that they don't remember what they studies in first two years but also that it's largely unnecessary.

I am wondering, then, what is the rational behind forcing us to abuse our memorization skill to cram for few weeks things that we won't need as physicians let alone remember due to precisely the lack of their use?

Or is it that these doctors and students are at faults and totally missed the point of their basic science education?

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Saved Satan said:
So many people I've talked to, both doctors and residents, downright state not only that they don't remember what they studies in first two years but also that it's largely unnecessary.

I am wondering, then, what is the rational behind forcing us to abuse our memorization skill to cram for few weeks things that we won't need as physicians let alone remember due to precisely the lack of their use?

Or is it that these doctors and students are at faults and totally missed the point of their basic science education?

I think that you have probably been talking to the worng people. I guess in light of what a senior doc would know now, basic sciences seems trivial, however, the foundation that it lays must be very important for building the rest of ones knowledgebase. I would'nt want a doc that didn't take anatomy cutting me.

just my opinion.
 
ChiefToma said:
I think that you have probably been talking to the worng people. I guess in light of what a senior doc would know now, basic sciences seems trivial, however, the foundation that it lays must be very important for building the rest of ones knowledgebase. I would'nt want a doc that didn't take anatomy cutting me.

just my opinion.


Good point. I see that.
 
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Saved Satan said:
So many people I've talked to, both doctors and residents, downright state not only that they don't remember what they studies in first two years but also that it's largely unnecessary.

I am wondering, then, what is the rational behind forcing us to abuse our memorization skill to cram for few weeks things that we won't need as physicians let alone remember due to precisely the lack of their use?

Or is it that these doctors and students are at faults and totally missed the point of their basic science education?
That's a really great question because I often wonder the same thing. One explanation could be that these doctors couldn't have learned all the stuff they actually need to know without having the background for it. But since they already have the background, they're taking it for granted because they don't use the knowledge directly. On the other hand, a lot of our tests have bad questions on very detailed facts that really don't seem important. I think the reason this happens is that you can only write so many big-picture questions and the professors are just filling up space. If we had fewer exams or fewer questions per exam, this may not be as big an issue. But c'est la vie.
 
A lot of the first 2 years is practice. It is practice in being able to stuff vast quantities of knowledge into your brain in a short amount of time. This will be important for the rest of your life because medicine changes rapidly and you will also be constantly learning. Also, by understanding the basic science behind medicine it makes the physician into more than a technician. Anyone can learn a protocol and follow it but understanding the reasoning behind the protocol is something more (I love learning the science behind the protocols I followed as an EMT now that I am in medical school).
 
Anyone who says the first two years of med school are worthless does not know what they're talking about. The first year (with the exception of anatomy and physio) are probably not crucial but the second year is. The second year is the most important of all as you're laying the foundation for much of your medical career. Pathology, microbiology, pharmacology, physio, and a clinical medicine course are extremely important to being able to function on the wards as a third year and beyond. While the minute details of each course aren't necessarily important (histopathology, etc), the basic concepts are. You have to lay/understand the foundation of medicine (all the basic diseases, classes of medicines, disease transmission, etc) before you can learn the details and learn how to apply it. If you think you should've just skipped straight to the M-3 year because you'd be at the same level you are now, you probably should've become a nurse.
 
If you think you should've just skipped straight to the M-3 year because you'd be at the same level you are now, you probably should've become a nurse.

Be careful what you say, while I agree that the firs 2 years of medical school are important I think you are underestimating nursing by making a comment like that. My fiance is a nurse (a RN/BSN) who went through 5 years of school to get where she is now. Before she had any clinical classes she took a year and a half of basic sciences including microbiology, pharmacology, physiology, anatomy, behavioral science etc. Nursing requires a fair amount of basic science as well and you really cannot skip it in nursing either.
 
also do not make the mistake that because you finished the first 2 years and passed step 1 then you can forget about basic sciences. my friend who is a resident tells me that their annual service exam still tests material like biochemistry, molecular bio, and physiology and even the exam to get his board certification will have a fair amount of step 1 material on it. he is doing surgery so i don't know if this is true for other specialties. so he has to still review the stuff that is covered during the first 2 years of med school and the usmle step 1 even though he's now a resident.
 
The thing about moving on with your education is that you tend to downplay the importance of the years that came before. For whatever reason its just difficult to have the perspective to see that you were able to succeed at the next level because of the base you built at the lower level. Yes, the information you actually need to learn to practice will be learned largely on the wards. But learning the basic science and pathophysiology in the classroom is essential for learning the clinical skills later. Also how are you supposed to keep up with your reading and assimilate new information if you don't have strong background knowledge?

I'm finishing up my 1st year right now, and in many of my classes (especially those taught by PhDs) I stop and question the value of learning all this basic science and seemingly esoteric detail. But it seems that every single time I shadow in the hospital I see a clinician using a piece of basic science knowledge that I had dismissed as trivial. Will you use all of it? Of course not, but you never know what bits will be useful and it will be different for everyone. A surgeon I shadowed questioned the value of knowing what happend to each individual glucose carbon in glycolysis...then found himself doing biochemistry research where the knowledge was valuable. The internist probably takes for granted that his knowledge of steroid hormone synthesis allows him to know that hyperpigmentation can be caused by a defect in that pathway causing a buildup of pro-opiomelanocortin, my 4th year friend was glad she paid attention in immunology when she got pimped about the complement cascade by an allergist, I thought it was pointless to lecture 1st years on an esoteric disease like neurofibromatosis...but then got to impress a neurosurgeon i was shadowing by droppin' a little knowledge when he had 3 NF patients in one day in clinic.

You never know what's important and you can't lose perspective about how your knowledge base allows you to excel at the next level.
 
hakksar said:
Be careful what you say, while I agree that the firs 2 years of medical school are important I think you are underestimating nursing by making a comment like that. My fiance is a nurse (a RN/BSN) who went through 5 years of school to get where she is now. Before she had any clinical classes she took a year and a half of basic sciences including microbiology, pharmacology, physiology, anatomy, behavioral science etc. Nursing requires a fair amount of basic science as well and you really cannot skip it in nursing either.
all we need are more nurses married to doctors.

can you at least do us all a favor and tell her that just because she's marrying a doctor, she doesn't know as much as doctors NOR does she know more than the other nurses. this will save a lot of future heartache. thanks, the management.
 
typeB-md said:
all we need are more nurses married to doctors.

can you at least do us all a favor and tell her that just because she's marrying a doctor, she doesn't know as much as doctors NOR does she know more than the other nurses. this will save a lot of future heartache. thanks, the management.

You're the type B doc? I shudder to think what the type A one is like.
 
j8131 said:
You're the type B doc? I shudder to think what the type A one is like.

Don't mind him, he's like the annoying booger hanging out of someone's nose that you just learn to pretend it isn't there.
 
gerido said:
Don't mind him, he's like the annoying booger hanging out of someone's nose that you just learn to pretend it isn't there.
Yeah- Type B MD also has a stupid comment to make. I'm actually a female med student married to a male surgical nurse- I think it's made us both more appreciating and understanding of both careers- which is a GOOD thing!
 
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velocypedalist said:
The thing about moving on with your education is that you tend to downplay the importance of the years that came before. For whatever reason its just difficult to have the perspective to see that you were able to succeed at the next level because of the base you built at the lower level. Yes, the information you actually need to learn to practice will be learned largely on the wards. But learning the basic science and pathophysiology in the classroom is essential for learning the clinical skills later. Also how are you supposed to keep up with your reading and assimilate new information if you don't have strong background knowledge?

I'm finishing up my 1st year right now, and in many of my classes (especially those taught by PhDs) I stop and question the value of learning all this basic science and seemingly esoteric detail. But it seems that every single time I shadow in the hospital I see a clinician using a piece of basic science knowledge that I had dismissed as trivial. Will you use all of it? Of course not, but you never know what bits will be useful and it will be different for everyone. A surgeon I shadowed questioned the value of knowing what happend to each individual glucose carbon in glycolysis...then found himself doing biochemistry research where the knowledge was valuable. The internist probably takes for granted that his knowledge of steroid hormone synthesis allows him to know that hyperpigmentation can be caused by a defect in that pathway causing a buildup of pro-opiomelanocortin, my 4th year friend was glad she paid attention in immunology when she got pimped about the complement cascade by an allergist, I thought it was pointless to lecture 1st years on an esoteric disease like neurofibromatosis...but then got to impress a neurosurgeon i was shadowing by droppin' a little knowledge when he had 3 NF patients in one day in clinic.

You never know what's important and you can't lose perspective about how your knowledge base allows you to excel at the next level.

Important:
Pathology
Physiology
Pharmacology
Microbiology

Important depending on what you are doing at the time:
Neuroscience
Anatomy
Immunology

Seldom if ever usefull (unless you're a pathologist/researcher):
Histology
Parts of path involving histology
Biochemistry
Molecular biology
 
jake2 said:
Important:
Pathology
Physiology
Pharmacology
Microbiology

Important depending on what you are doing at the time:
Neuroscience
Anatomy
Immunology

Seldom if ever usefull (unless you're a pathologist/researcher):
Histology
Parts of path involving histology
Biochemistry
Molecular biology

practical insight.
Thanks
 
jake2 said:
Important:
Pathology
Physiology
Pharmacology
Microbiology

Important depending on what you are doing at the time:
Neuroscience
Anatomy
Immunology

Seldom if ever usefull (unless you're a pathologist/researcher):
Histology
Parts of path involving histology
Biochemistry
Molecular biology

Good list although I'd probably throw Anatomy onto the important list. Maybe not every stupid triangle, but overall it's hard to practice medicine and understand H&Ps without a knowledge of where things are.
 
jake2 said:
Important:
Pathology
Physiology
Pharmacology
Microbiology

Important depending on what you are doing at the time:
Neuroscience
Anatomy
Immunology

Seldom if ever usefull (unless you're a pathologist/researcher):
Histology
Parts of path involving histology
Biochemistry
Molecular biology

Thing is though, the classes you placed in the less important spots are important for understanding the more often used subjects...
 
Like hakksar said, it's all about rewiring your brain to be able to process a lot of information.

If it's so useless, then why don't we go back to the old days and just have us be apprentices right out of high school....hell, most people didn't even NEED proof of graduating high school.

I think some doctors, residents, nurses, whoever just like to get off at the sound of their own voice putting things down....hell, even med students like to do it....i guess we learn that in our first two years pretty well.
 
gerido said:
Don't mind him, he's like the annoying booger hanging out of someone's nose that you just learn to pretend it isn't there.
just because you are not as intelligent as i, you shouldn't feel so bad about yourself.

you're probably not as good looking either, but this is a debate for another time.
 
KEC said:
Yeah- Type B MD also has a stupid comment to make. I'm actually a female med student married to a male surgical nurse- I think it's made us both more appreciating and understanding of both careers- which is a GOOD thing!
don't project your disappointment onto me; i'm not the one that forced you to settle for marrying a man-nurse.

the fact of the matter is that nurses who are a married to doctors always tend to be a pain in the ass. they always denigrate the other nurses and walk around like they have teh midas touch. "uh, actually doc, my husband was telling me that that it's better to give this drug instead!"

i could bore you with facts about how far above average my social and intellectual IQ are, but let's suffice it to say that i am probably going further than most of the individuals on this board. don't knock the player because you can't play his game.
 
typeB-md said:
don't project your disappointment onto me; i'm not the one that forced you to settle for marrying a man-nurse.

the fact of the matter is that nurses who are a married to doctors always tend to be a pain in the ass. they always denigrate the other nurses and walk around like they have teh midas touch. "uh, actually doc, my husband was telling me that that it's better to give this drug instead!"

i could bore you with facts about how far above average my social and intellectual IQ are, but let's suffice it to say that i am probably going further than most of the individuals on this board. don't knock the player because you can't play his game.


Wow! Type B-MD you're right! I really "settled" when I married the most incredible man in the world. I really missed out because I could have married someone as wonderful as you with your "above average social" skills, as you sit hidden anonymously behind your computer screen posting 4 times a day on SDN. Thanks for sparing me the boring details of your intelligence... I have better things to do like go out on a date with my happily married 6'3", 200 lbs "man-nurse" who could kick your a$$ any day. Have a good Friday evening alone with your computer.

P.S. I have no interest in playing your "game" which probably involves 5 of your own fingers, KY Jelly, a tarp, and a life-sized cardboard cutout of your own naked grandmother- isn't that how you increase your social IQ (which by the way isn't measured on IQ scales). Keep working on that grip.
 
Type-B,

That attitude will *not* get you far-- I hope you're being sarcastic.

The 1st 2 years are good for setting a framework to learn in a clinical environment. Technically it's not required but it's good tool-- at Duke (not my school btw) they spend only 1 year on basic science, and I'm sure they'll be great doctors. All of this arguing about the intelligence of nurses/doctors is irrelevant; doctors have one job and nurses have another. Nurses are not "doctor-light".

I worked in an ER once where one of the nurses had an attitude that she was far superior to the other nurses, and would have been an MD if circumstances were right. She constantly encroached on what the ER docs were doing/planning, and it was quite disruptive. (Not to say she didn't have good things to add-- it was just her attitude that was annoying.) Also, her patients really didn't get the best care because she was so busy trying to do the doctor's job.
 
Don't bother asking why. They're not going to change the curriculum for you. Suck it up and do the work. Or just be frustrated.
 
1st year is not that important, except it helps a bit for 2nd year. 2nd year probably isn't that important to someone who's been practicing medicine for a really long time.....but you gotta start somewhere.....
that said, i recently heard that 1st and 2nd year grades are basically useless...nice to know after busting my ass to get honors in path.....should have slept more ;)
 
While I agree that the first two years seem inconsequential because no residency programs really place emphasis on them, we're all forgetting one major thing: Boards. Residency directors use USMLE scores as a standard way to see how much people have learned in their first two years, since comparing HP in Embryo at one school with P in Phys is a largely useless exercise.
 
hakksar said:
Be careful what you say, while I agree that the firs 2 years of medical school are important I think you are underestimating nursing by making a comment like that. My fiance is a nurse (a RN/BSN) who went through 5 years of school to get where she is now. Before she had any clinical classes she took a year and a half of basic sciences including microbiology, pharmacology, physiology, anatomy, behavioral science etc. Nursing requires a fair amount of basic science as well and you really cannot skip it in nursing either.


Thank you for saying This ..... I swear I could kiss you!
 
typeB-md said:
don't knock the player because you can't play his game.
Another timeless and idiotic comment from this classy SDN-er. Any person that makes statements like this on an anonymous forum has some serious inferiority issues at hand.

To answer the OP's original question, material during the first two years is fairly important, NOT necessarily for the practice of medicine (will you really care what the remnants of the paramesonephric ducts in men are in 25 years?), but for your Step I score & AOA chances, both of which are important for residency placement. This is not to say that AOA membership or a Step I of 250 is a requirement for any field, but they can be helpful when it comes time to apply for residency. If you're considering a competitive specialty, everything helps!

Also, a great understanding of pathophysiology becomes important during the M-3 year and will make the rotations easier, the shelf exams easier, and Steps II/III more manageable.

Good luck to all.
 
Some solid advice given here. the first two years function for a few reasons. One it gives you a foundation to keep learning. Two, it gives a good broad base of knowledge. Some of it you will use and some of it you wont and this will vary widely depending on your specialty.

Is histology *that* important to my career? Not so much but to my path resident friend, its used quite often and general anatomy is not used at all by her, but used quite extensively for me.

Physiology comes in to play for me in tox quite a bit. I was sure those damn sodium channels would never been seen again (and those cursed phases) after first year. And yet, prolonged QT and me... well we love those damn sodium channels.

So, keep in mind, you don't know exactly where you will end up and various things will become important as you progress in your field. And if you didn't have those first two years, you would be able to learn a specialty as well.

Besides, remember why you went to med school (aside from making it easier to get laid), you 'loved' biology adn science. Now your getting it. :)
 
liberal arts education : ITT/DeVry :: medical school : [fill in the blank]
 
roja said:
Besides, remember why you went to med school (aside from making it easier to get laid), you 'loved' biology adn science. Now your getting it. :)

You forgot that we ALL wanted to "help people" too. :laugh:

I agree that that basic science years are a bridge to the clinical ones. I would like to know something before MS3 hits me in the face. We essentially learn "doctor-speak" in the beginning. We know what CHF stands for, but you would have to spell it out to the general public. Never mind the path of it.
 
Thank you all for various views and insights.
It seems the first two years are not so irrelevant as some make them out to be. That's a motivation enough to approach them with a positive enthusiasm.
 
I wouldn't mind so much if the faculty were capable of identifying and teaching important concepts, instead of those most near and dear to their hearts (i.e. their rat-lab research).

For example, I've just spent time memorizing which hypothalamic nuclei are involved in water balance, temp regulation and fuel intake. The concepts are certainly important, but do I need to know the specific nuclei by the end of first year? No way in hell. Am I going to remember them next year? Almost certainly not. Is this an effective way to teach? No.
 
all we need are more nurses married to doctors.

can you at least do us all a favor and tell her that just because she's marrying a doctor, she doesn't know as much as doctors NOR does she know more than the other nurses. this will save a lot of future heartache. thanks, the management.

No she is marrying me because we have known each other for 10 years and we have been dating each other for over 2 years and we have decided that we want to spend the rest of our lives together (she could give a crap about me being a doctor other than she wants me to do what makes me happy). We started dating before I was even accepted into medical school (and she was still in nursing school). We did search and rescue together and that is why we are both in the health care field (she went on to nursing school and I went on to medical school), I bet you wouldn't have made the comment if she was marrying one of the other members of the SAR team (such as the ones that are now police officers or firefighters) . . . don't believe all the stereotypes. By the way she knows more about nursing then any doctor and she will be the first to admit she does not know as much about medicine as any doctor. They are different careers and have different priorities. They are both equally important since they both are imperative for the proper care of patients.
 
There is one heck of a good reason for the first two years of med school...

Passing Step I

Now back to studying... Whhht-tssst!

:)
 
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