The purchasing power of $110-130k starting salary in 2015.

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Amazing posts cold front, I agree that the lure of dental schools will die down once young dentists start defaulting on their loans. For a 500k loan, even with a 25 year repayment plan, the minimum payment would be 42k a year assuming 7% interest. Is this doable? Yes it is but new grads make mistakes all the time, finding themselves in associateships without a daily minimum, making 80k a year and being screwed over. When this occurs to a person who needs to make a minimum payment of 42k a year, things look very bleak.
I agree. There are at least 5 more schools who were in either feasibility or early planning stage few years ago. I'm certain 1 or 2 will open in the next couple of years:

- 2nd Lake Erie school.
- Wisconsin
- New Mexico
- Kansas

http://wp.vcu.edu/dentistrydean/wp-...010/12/New-Dental-Schools-Report-Dec-2010.pdf

These programs are for profit, and will join top tier schools in tuition if they open. Each program will cost $40-50 million to open, and will cost millions more to attract and keep dental faculty from other programs. The students will be wow'ed by brand new facilities and high end dental equipment and technology that you won't see in the older programs or the schools that closed. So this is pure business model, and students will cover all the bills, one way or the other. By either increasing student to faculty ratio or forcing the students to buy marked-up dental instruments or computers that really won't make any significant difference in their training.

It's almost similar to what corporate dental chains are doing to patients, over-treatment and a big outcome promises for high cost through dental credit financing. In the end, those patients are stuck with the debt and high APR.

Let's call it what it is... A bubble.

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I agree. There are at least 5 more schools who were in either feasibility or early planning stage few years ago. I'm certain 1 or 2 will open in the next couple of years:

- 2nd Lake Erie school.
- Wisconsin
- New Mexico
- Kansas

http://wp.vcu.edu/dentistrydean/wp-...010/12/New-Dental-Schools-Report-Dec-2010.pdf

These programs are for profit, and will join top tier schools in tuition if they open. Each program will cost $40-50 million to open, and will cost millions more to attract and keep dental faculty from other programs. The students will be wow'ed by brand new facilities and high end dental equipment and technology that you won't see in the older programs or the schools that closed. So this is pure business model, and students will cover all the bills, one way or the other. By either increasing student to faculty ratio or forcing the students to buy marked-up dental instruments or computers that really won't make any significant difference in their training.

It's almost similar to what corporate dental chains are doing to patients, over-treatment and a big outcome promises for high cost through dental credit financing. In the end, those patients are stuck with the debt and high APR.

Let's call it what it is... A bubble.

@Cold Front ,

What you are describing is what has made me angry for some time now: federally-fueled expansion of higher education. The problem--as is the case with most major issues in society--is the involvement of the federal government. At most private institutions, a student could owe almost 1 million dollars for training in Ortho, Endo, Prosth, and Perio (DDS + specialty).

The problem is that students are entering these programs and taking out the loans blindly, thinking that they will get the same economic return that their predecessors received.

They won't.
 
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Dental school tuition is out of control. I thought number of applicants would have dropped by now, but it seems like people are more gung ho about dentistry than I thought... I was interested in dental school and the outrageous tuition was my main deterrent...
 
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@Cold Front ,

What you are describing is what has made me angry for some time now: federally-fueled expansion of higher education. The problem--as is the case with most major issues in society--is the involvement of the federal government. At most private institutions, a student could owe almost 1 million dollars for training in Ortho, Endo, Prosth, and Perio (DDS + specialty).

The problem is that students are entering these programs and taking out the loans blindly, thinking that they will get the same economic return that their predecessors received.

They won't.

for some odd reason lot of SDN people assume engineers, accountants and finance majors are poor. I think these practical majors will see an increased interest if they havent done so already given that many of the Masters degrees in engineering and accounting are one year and often much more affordable even at a private school. In addition, the interest and loss of opportunity cost will not be as severe as at a dental/medical school.

People say live below your means after graduation from dental school but if one can live on $50k for a good decade or two as a dentist, I'm sure they can live on $50k as an engineer.

btw Silent Cool I agree with you, my post above is just some opinions in addition to your post.
 
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@Cold Front ,

What you are describing is what has made me angry for some time now: federally-fueled expansion of higher education. The problem--as is the case with most major issues in society--is the involvement of the federal government. At most private institutions, a student could owe almost 1 million dollars for training in Ortho, Endo, Prosth, and Perio (DDS + specialty).

The problem is that students are entering these programs and taking out the loans blindly, thinking that they will get the same economic return that their predecessors received.

They won't.
The education debt is a ticking time bomb. The big question in everyone's mind is - how much is too much? It's interesting that lenders; federal and private are using historical figures to keep lending more and more every year, because they see default rate for professional school grads are lower than undergraduate borrowers. Their data also shows that professional graduates are more likely to find jobs and able to pay their loans. Those two indicators are the driving force for lenders to keep lending to dental students, but they are not taking other realities into account - that wages/income, cost of living, insurancd reimbursement fees, number of patients and procedures a dentist can see and perform has not kept up with the soaring debt.

So the concept of borrowing blindly starts at undergraduate level, and majority of dental students are directly entering dental school after they complete their bachelor programs, without experiencing what it feels like to look for a job and pay back loans. It can be even worse for those who directly enter residency after dental school. But hey, those students are entering dental schools because "dentistry is a great profession, and you will make great income, so lets worry about that loan agreement when you finish school". That's the mindset problem in a nutshell.

It's a fact that quality of life for dentists has changed due to growing debt. I personally know fellow graduates who are on IBR programs, who are just paying interest on their loans. Their debt is actually rising under this repayment program, and purely benefits the lenders. Imagine owing $100k undergrad, $350k dental debt and you are on IBR. That loan will go up slowly to $500k or more if you don't find a better income to offset the interest on the loan. IBR is more common practice for graduates today than they were 5-10 years ago, and we will see more of this trend in the future.

Even if new graduates choose to pay their loans more under 25 years repayment, most would have to spend $0.40-0.50 for every after-tax $1 they earn for the first 5 years of their career. This doesn't leave much room for other living expenses; like mortgage, car, savings, etc. This also discourages those new graduates from buying or building a practice, or evening buying a home.

In my city, millennials are moving to downtown areas and renting properties, because they want to save on driving expenses or owning a car all together, primarily due to education debt - plus they won't be able to afford buying a property due their income-to-debt ratio. So there is a rental boom that developers are capitalizing on in many parts of the country, not to mention baby boomers who are also down sizing from their suburban area homes to city centers, keeping property values high and unaffordable to majority of young people. So there are so many suburban homes on the market for a great deal now, and it's interesting to see if this new dynamic changes - fueled by young people with huge debt.
 
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Well, some schools like USC and Midwestern are already close to $500k a year for total cost of attendance.

https://www.midwestern.edu/Documents/Financial Aid documents/COA Forms/2014-15 revised AZ/Dental _ AZ 1415 final.pdf

In 5 years at 5% increases, those schools will charge $600k. In 10 years $750k, in 15 close to $1M.

Midwestern actually has recently increased their class size from 120 to 150, and still has a long alternate/waitlist for applicants every year. Many applicants don't see the bigger picture, and some are already carrying $100k+ debt from undergrad. Now consider they do get accepted to a dental school, and decide to specialize in Orthodontics and Endodontics - that's another $250k cost of attendance.

https://dentistry.usc.edu/programs/certificate/orthodontics/

There are doctors out there with this kind of debt.

At some point it will no longer be up to the students. When doctors and dentists are no longer a stable loan investment for lenders, they will simply stop providing student loans for professional schools.

People on these forums often state that "dental schools don't care about your financial success and if you can pay back your loans." While this may be true for dental schools, it is not true for lenders.

Federal loans have failed to keep up with skyrocketing tuition, which means private lenders are the only means by which most students can attend professional schools.

The day that no one will finance a dental or medical education will be a day of reckoning for the federal government. You can't have a nation without doctors or dentists. If it ever gets to that point (which I doubt it will) then dentists in practice will actually benefit greatly as there will be fewer graduating dentists and less competition.

Once tuition hits the $1 million mark and professional students go from 97%+ repayment rates to less than 50% repayment rates, then interest rates on private loans for professional schools will increase heavily, and ultimately it will become impossible for anyone to finance a private dental education, resulting in the possible closure of many private dental schools.

The question is not whether students will be willing to take out the loans for increasingly expensive professional schools. The question is, at what point will dentists be unable to service their student loan debt and how long will private lenders be willing to finance professionals who don't pay back their loans?
 
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... Federal loans have failed to keep up with skyrocketing tuition, which means private lenders are the only means by which most students can attend professional schools...
Is there a hard limit on Grad PLUS loans? I know that Stafford + PLUS will indeed cover up to my COA ($60-70k/yr), so I feel like Federal loans will continue to cover skyrocketing tuition regardless of debt/income ratio students are graduating with.
 
Why doesn't the government put a cap on tuition already? This is ridiculous. No one should go into debt to obtain an education.
 
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Free market...

I do not agree with their statement about no one going into debt for education or government caps; however, lets be real - higher ed is not a free market.

Why is it not a free market? The government is writing most/all the checks, there is no risk sensitivity because loans cannot be discharged by consumers (by law), there are heavy subsidies distorting the higher ed market, and there is no market/risk mechanisms preventing the government from making loans that should not be made or accepted.
 
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I do not agree with their statement about no one going into debt for education or government caps; however, lets be real - higher ed is not a free market.

Why is it not a free market? The government is writing most/all the checks, there is no risk sensitivity because loans cannot be discharged by consumers (by law), there are heavy subsidies distorting the higher ed market, and there is no market/risk mechanisms preventing the government from making loans that should not be made or accepted.
I agree. Just because dental borrowers don’t default, it doesn’t exactly mean repayment comes easy.

Here is what the latest Federal Reserve numbers tell us about this problem for all the student loans out there, some $1.3 trillion (larger than Spain, Korea and Mexico GDP/economy, approaching Australia and Canada GDP in the coming years).
  • 37% of all borrowers finished schools and are actually paying back their debt on schedule.
  • 17% who finished school are struggling to pay their debt. By Feds definition, that's 270 days of non-payment.
  • The remaining 46% are still in school, in deferrement, IBR or some other repayment option. Most of them (33% of all borrowers) have loans that are increasing. Let's be clear, the lender is the federal government, loans, that is, the taxpayers.

6a01348793456c970c01b7c7505223970b-pi
 
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Free market...

There is not a free market valuation of education. The government 100% controls the costs. The free market was in control of education in the 1960s and some of the 1970s--that's why it was cheap. That's why the poorest person from the poorest family could work the most awful summer job and have enough to pay for the entire thing and probably graduate with savings and no debt.

When the government interferes with the price system--which is effectively what they have done--the prices skyrocket such that this chart defines our current reality:

college.jpg


Notice that the more the government subsidizes something, the farther it deviates from CPI. Of course, CPI in itself is also misleading because it is determined entirely by the federal reserve's ability to print money. The real 'CPI' would be the gold standard, which we haven't had in this country since 1971. It is what tamed inflation and necessarily kept the buying power of the dollar high and the cost of things like education low.

Remember the housing bubble and how devastating it was? Look at the growing education bubble.

Think about that for a minute.
 
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At some point it will no longer be up to the students. When doctors and dentists are no longer a stable loan investment for lenders, they will simply stop providing student loans for professional schools.

People on these forums often state that "dental schools don't care about your financial success and if you can pay back your loans." While this may be true for dental schools, it is not true for lenders.

Federal loans have failed to keep up with skyrocketing tuition, which means private lenders are the only means by which most students can attend professional schools.

The day that no one will finance a dental or medical education will be a day of reckoning for the federal government. You can't have a nation without doctors or dentists. If it ever gets to that point (which I doubt it will) then dentists in practice will actually benefit greatly as there will be fewer graduating dentists and less competition.

Once tuition hits the $1 million mark and professional students go from 97%+ repayment rates to less than 50% repayment rates, then interest rates on private loans for professional schools will increase heavily, and ultimately it will become impossible for anyone to finance a private dental education, resulting in the possible closure of many private dental schools.

The question is not whether students will be willing to take out the loans for increasingly expensive professional schools. The question is, at what point will dentists be unable to service their student loan debt and how long will private lenders be willing to finance professionals who don't pay back their loans?


There are no lenders, as it were. There is only the federal government, who will lend practically any amount to anyone.

My favorite examples are the outrageous dental school tuitions, where you can attend many schools for your DDS + specialty training and owe one million dollars.
 
At some point it will no longer be up to the students. When doctors and dentists are no longer a stable loan investment for lenders, they will simply stop providing student loans for professional schools.

People on these forums often state that "dental schools don't care about your financial success and if you can pay back your loans." While this may be true for dental schools, it is not true for lenders.

Federal loans have failed to keep up with skyrocketing tuition, which means private lenders are the only means by which most students can attend professional schools.

The day that no one will finance a dental or medical education will be a day of reckoning for the federal government. You can't have a nation without doctors or dentists. If it ever gets to that point (which I doubt it will) then dentists in practice will actually benefit greatly as there will be fewer graduating dentists and less competition.

Once tuition hits the $1 million mark and professional students go from 97%+ repayment rates to less than 50% repayment rates, then interest rates on private loans for professional schools will increase heavily, and ultimately it will become impossible for anyone to finance a private dental education, resulting in the possible closure of many private dental schools.

The question is not whether students will be willing to take out the loans for increasingly expensive professional schools. The question is, at what point will dentists be unable to service their student loan debt and how long will private lenders be willing to finance professionals who don't pay back their loans?
I give it 5 years before this issue becomes a major national economic discussion and create more awareness to the public. In the end, the public (tax payers) will collectively be able to take action before the wheels come off on this looming debt crisis.

The government has been cutting checks and turning blind eye to the soaring education debt. Just like they did to the sub-prime mortgage crisis in 2008. The student debt market grew 7% last year (in line with annual dental tuition increases). It is now the second largest form of consumer debt behind housing, and out pacing mortgage loans in terms of new borrowers.
 
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When the government interferes with the price system--which is effectively what they have done--the prices skyrocket such that this chart defines our current reality:

Notice that the more the government subsidizes something, the farther it deviates from CPI.
The gov. subsidizes public/state colleges - they cost 5x less than private colleges.
 
The gov. subsidizes public/state colleges - they cost 5x less than private colleges.

Even when counting the TX dental schools, in-state schools are 2x or 3x less than private colleges. Not defending private colleges here but its not like in-state schools are exactly cheap and affordable either.
 
The gov. subsidizes public/state colleges - they cost 5x less than private colleges.

That's because the money comes from the state, so the costs end up being low(er). When I say "subsidized by the government," I'm referring to the federal government. The highest percent increase in costs have been at state universities. The COA at Berkeley is about 130-140K total. That's only about 100K less than the COA at a private university, but about 10X more than the inflation-adjusted cost. The reason the actual cost is 10X more than the inflation-adjusted cost is that the FEDERAL government allows all universities to charge as much as they want.
 
http://www.ada.org/~/media/ADA/Science and Research/HPI/Files/HPIBrief_0213_1.ashx

Here's a paper that shows what happened to dentist wages from 1982 to 2011, in constant 2011 dollars:
Screen Shot 2015-04-04 at 10.44.17 AM.png

Screen Shot 2015-04-04 at 10.43.43 AM.png

Things have probably improved since the report was published, as the economy has generally gotten better since 2011 and people have started having elective medical procedures done at rates closer to pre-recession levels.
 
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they gotta take into account the hours worked by dentists in these surveys, too.
 
Some members will look back to this topic 5+ years from now, wondering what tuition debt discussion people had, as tuition costs once again rise in the coming months for 2015 entering class, at a time when wages and salaries are stagnant. The end result is that more young people in this country (and young future dentists as well) of modest means won't be able to afford education unless they take on a lifetime of debt. I have friends who are in their 40s and 50s who are still paying off their college debt at a time that they are trying to help their own kids pay for college. Politicians and university leaders need to understand that mounting debt stifles the economy. A kid comes out of college with $50,000+ in debts that they have to start paying for within a few months of leaving school. That means they have less money to buy cars, houses, invest in stocks, and just general life expenses. And then their 4-year degrees don't get much on the job market, so they often go back to school for graduate degrees or extra certifications, adding even more debt. This will also hurt employers and the nation, as wages offered will not substitute the debt payments, an inventible tipping point.
 
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This is a very interesting post. For everybody, especially @Cold Front, if you were to enter dental school today, what limit would you set for the most amount of debt you will accumulate in dental school?
 
Whatever a state school charges. If you don't get in reapply at most 3 times to get into the state school.
 
Whatever a state school charges. If you don't get in reapply at most 3 times to get into the state school.

Wait, didn't you go to NYU, accumulate 300k loans and is on track to pay it off within 10 years? Was private school tuition worth it to you?
 
Whatever a state school charges. If you don't get in reapply at most 3 times to get into the state school.
I strongly disagree. Let's compare the options of going to expensive ($400k) school to a good deal school ($150k) school.

Option 1:
Where did you get in?: You get into both.
Best place to go: Cheap school ($150k)
Why?: You save $250k.
Risk: None.

Option 2:
Where did you get in?: You get into expensive school only.
Best place to go: Expensive school.
Why?: You will graduate earlier and make $120k starting salary, so you are ahead in income opportunity by $120k plus a chance to be ahead in career (and practice ownership, if that's the goal), and also in experience among other things (that too is worth a lot of $$$),
Risk: $250k debt, but that's nothing compared to the risk of reapplying and not getting into a cheaper school. Remember, that cheap school will be 5% higher in tuition next year, plus if you don't get in, you face 5% higher of the private school you turned down last year. In terms of real economics, $120k head start in starting salary is also worth more today than next year. Plus inflation in other expenses will also go up. Unless you are 100% certain (which is almost impossible) of getting into cheaper school, take the expensive school.
 
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This is a very interesting post. For everybody, especially @Cold Front, if you were to enter dental school today, what limit would you set for the most amount of debt you will accumulate in dental school?
It depends.

I would probably not go above $400k total dental debt. That's about $3k a month in 25 years repayment. For that amount, to me, it would be too risky from an associate general dentist perspective (the lowest position in the potential spectrum) with a national average income of $175k or $9k a month net. If I pay off $3k a month, that leaves me $6k to live off. Mortgage, utilities, car, insurances, travel, food etc would take another $4k at the minimum, or perhaps the entire $6k, with no savings. That would be too much exposure and depressive to live on paycheck-to-paycheck. It could happen to any dentist; through loss of business, divorce, alimony and child support, bankruptcy, disability, economy tanking, and other life changing experiences that no one is immune to (at least to some of them).

But that's just me, and my safety net mode.
 
I strongly disagree. Let's compare the options of going to expensive ($400k) school to a good deal school ($150k) school.

Option 1:
Where did you get in?: You get into both.
Best place to go: Cheap school ($150k)
Why?: You save $250k.
Risk: None.

Option 2:
Where did you get in?: You get into expensive school only.
Best place to go: Expensive school.
Why?: You will graduate earlier and make $120k starting salary, so you are ahead in income opportunity by $120k plus a chance to be ahead in career (and practice ownership, if that's the goal), and also in experience among other things (that too is worth a lot of $$$),
Risk: $250k debt, but that's nothing compared to the risk of reapplying and not getting into a cheaper school. Remember, that cheap school will be 5% higher in tuition next year, plus if you don't get in, you face 5% higher of the private school you turned down last year. In terms of real economics, $120k head start in starting salary is also worth more today than next year. Plus inflation in other expenses will also go up. Unless you are 100% certain (which is almost impossible) of getting into cheaper school, take the expensive school.

See I don't know about that because say you are 1 year ahead by going to a private school, you are not really 120k ahead because you have to pay bills which do not exist if you reapplied the next year (assuming you live with your parents during reapplication gap year, something which most 22 year olds do I assume). Heck you can even work in your gap year and actually save some money. I don't think with 400k debt an associate would save much money in his extra year. Unless you can pay off the difference in tuition (250k) in that extra year of working, taking a gap year and reapplying is worth it because you are not really loosing 120k. All you are losing is whatever is left from: 120k - taxes - loan repayment - living costs. And that is probably not gonna be much more than say in a gap year: 30k- taxes - living costs or if you live with your parents: 30k - taxes.

Example:
Candidate A graduates in 2018, 150k debt. What will his debt be in 2019? Assuming 2k a month payments, 126k.
Candidate B graduates in 2017, 400k in debt. What will his debt be in 2019? Assuming 2k a month payments, 352k.

Which candidate is really closer to practice ownership?
 
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My sis graduated a year before me and has much less debt than I do, went to a state school, and lives in one of the largest cities in the us.
I live in the middle of nowhere, and have more debt. She can start a practice now if she wants, but she's just chilling now and having fun.

Oh yea, she didn't get in the first time and reapplied. I applied once and just went to NYU.

This is not speculation, guys. This is exactly what is going on.
 
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See I don't know about that because say you are 1 year ahead by going to a private school, you are not really 120k ahead because you have to pay bills which do not exist if you reapplied the next year (assuming you live with your parents during reapplication gap year, something which most 22 year olds do I assume). Heck you can even work in your gap year and actually save some money. I don't think with 400k debt an associate would save much money in his extra year. Unless you can pay off the difference in tuition (250k) in that extra year of working, taking a gap year and reapplying is worth it because you are not really loosing 120k. All you are losing is whatever is left from: 120k - taxes - loan repayment - living costs. And that is probably not gonna be much more than say in a gap year: 30k- taxes - living costs or if you live with your parents: 30k - taxes.

Example:
Candidate A graduates in 2018, 150k debt. What will his debt be in 2019? Assuming 2k a month payments, 126k.
Candidate B graduates in 2017, 400k in debt. What will his debt be in 2019? Assuming 2k a month payments, 352k.

Which candidate is really closer to practice ownership?
I see your point, but in theory and in perfect world, reapplying would make the best option. But in reality, it can be a coin toss, particularly if there are other candidates in the same "reapply to cheaper school" boat who will reapply again, and perhaps the new application cycle could be more competitive than the year you didn't get into cheap school. As the saying goes, you can plan for the perfect plan, but you cant predict the weather.

There is also additional cost of reapplying; from flying to multiple interviews to possibly retaking the DAT and additional classes to improve your application. It's a psychological barrier to go through the hoops again, and still know there is a chance you won't get in. Yes, schools will notice your efforts and perhaps give your application a closer look when you reapply, but they still control the decision, not you. Again, this is all down to possibly the stamina of your mindset. Some people have a ceiling to getting themselves into a debt and move on with wherver they get into, others will just feel better and shoot for super low debt strategy and take the long route to become a dentist by reapplying.
 
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See I don't know about that because say you are 1 year ahead by going to a private school, you are not really 120k ahead because you have to pay bills which do not exist if you reapplied the next year (assuming you live with your parents during reapplication gap year, something which most 22 year olds do I assume). Heck you can even work in your gap year and actually save some money. I don't think with 400k debt an associate would save much money in his extra year. Unless you can pay off the difference in tuition (250k) in that extra year of working, taking a gap year and reapplying is worth it because you are not really loosing 120k. All you are losing is whatever is left from: 120k - taxes - loan repayment - living costs. And that is probably not gonna be much more than say in a gap year: 30k- taxes - living costs or if you live with your parents: 30k - taxes.

Example:
Candidate A graduates in 2018, 150k debt. What will his debt be in 2019? Assuming 2k a month payments, 126k.
Candidate B graduates in 2017, 400k in debt. What will his debt be in 2019? Assuming 2k a month payments, 352k.

Which candidate is really closer to practice ownership?

One big flaw in this logic: you are actually gaining one year at the end of your career. Many GPs are making $200k+ at that point. Not to mention all the interest compounded from that first year of income. Maybe somebody good with math/statistics can tell us how many cycles it's worth applying to a state school vs. giving-up and going private.
 
It depends.
Mortgage, utilities, car, insurances, travel, food etc would take another $4k at the minimum, or perhaps the entire $6k, with no savings.

Is cost-of-living really this expensive? I know area matters a ton, but I was thinking that even if you took out a mortgage of $250K, that is about $1.6K/mo for 30 years. Utilities could take up ~$400. Car could take $~200-300/mo for fuel expenses (pay upfront for used car...5K) Food could be another ~$400-500.

The way I see it, if one chooses not to live the "dental lifestyle"/"keeping up with the Jones" the first few years out, they could comfortably put away $3K/month in savings/retirement.
 
Is cost-of-living really this expensive? I know area matters a ton, but I was thinking that even if you took out a mortgage of $250K, that is about $1.6K/mo for 30 years. Utilities could take up ~$400. Car could take $~200-300/mo for fuel expenses (pay upfront for used car...5K) Food could be another ~$400-500.

The way I see it, if one chooses not to live the "dental lifestyle"/"keeping up with the Jones" the first few years out, they could comfortably put away $3K/month in savings/retirement.
Here is how $4k expenses a month adds up:

1. Mortgage: $1.6k (many professionals live in communities with housing association/condo fees, can tack another $100)
2. Utilities (electric, gas, water, alarm, cable, Internet, cell phone, etc): $400
3. Auto finance, auto insurance, gas, etc: $500
4. Grocery and lunch purchases at work: $500
5. Medical insurance (it's a law now), disability insurance: $350
6. Do you have a pet? Do you have a dependent? Do you have credit cards? Do you travel?: Add a number.
Total: $4k minimum.

Majority of dentists have $5-10k a month expenses, because of life style choices. That's before dental loan payments.
 
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Here is how $4k expenses a month adds up:

1. Mortgage: $1.6k (many professionals live in communities with housing association/condo fees, can tack another $100)
2. Utilities (electric, gas, water, alarm, cable, Internet, cell phone, etc): $400
3. Auto finance, auto insurance, gas, etc: $500
4. Grocery and lunch purchases at work: $500
5. Medical insurance (it's a law now), disability insurance: $350
6. Do you have a pet? Do you have a dependent? Do you have credit cards? Do you travel?: Add a number.
Total: $4k minimum.

Majority of dentists have $5-10k a month expenses, because of life style choices. That's before dental loan payments.

Yikes
 
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Whatever a state school charges. If you don't get in reapply at most 3 times to get into the state school.
hmm... i'm not sure if this a good advice, since reapp. is judged more harshly than first app.
 
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If you're not financially smart and go to a 500k school....Then you might want to be worried.

But even if you get 250k debt... With 130k starting salary after taxes/loan payments (30yr) you would still net ~65k. That's more than the vast majority of 20 somethings are making gross. And also is a ton of purchasing power.

Everything is getting less lucrative. Still a good gig.
 
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Good luck to you!
 
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so anything below 500k is still financially ok?

No. Anything over 250k would scare me personally, but try this for yourself...

Take the 125k starting salary number.

Use this: http://www.paycheckcity.com/calculator/salary/ or these http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/index-of-taxes-calculators.aspx or roughly calculate 35% or so for taxes.

Probably get about 80k.

Then use this: http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/college-planning/loan-calculator.aspx

Play with the tuition/expense totals at different schools and 10 vs 30 year repayments.

Subtract that out -- you can then see what you will probably be left with.

Try adding up your living expenses or theoretical ones.

http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/mortgages/mortgage-calculator.aspx
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/auto/auto-loan-calculator.aspx
http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/savings/moving-cost-of-living-calculator.aspx
 
If you're not financially smart and go to a 500k school....Then you might want to be worried.

But you have to follow your heart. Private schools have better facilities and are totally worth the extra 250k cuz you'll end up being among the top dentists in the country. Plus you make 200k first year out of school anyway so you can pay off all your loans in 4 years max.
 
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But you have to follow your heart. Private schools have better facilities and are totally worth the extra 250k cuz you'll end up being among the top dentists in the country. Plus you make 200k first year out of school anyway so you can pay off all your loans in 4 years max.

State schools have good facilities, most are better than the offices you will be working in out of school. There are a ton of associates who make less than 200k unless u are willing to go where you're needed.

Why not set yourself up with less headache by going to the cheapest school you can get into?
 
State schools have good facilities, most are better than the offices you will be working in out of school. There are a ton of associates who make less than 200k unless u are willing to go where you're needed.

Why not set yourself up with less headache by going to the cheapest school you can get into?

Lol. My friend, take a look @Realitydentalstudent 's posting history, and you'll soon realize he is the most cost-conscious person in this forum.
 
But you have to follow your heart. Private schools have better facilities and are totally worth the extra 250k cuz you'll end up being among the top dentists in the country. Plus you make 200k first year out of school anyway so you can pay off all your loans in 4 years max.

You crack me up.
 
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That's because the money comes from the state, so the costs end up being low(er). When I say "subsidized by the government," I'm referring to the federal government. The highest percent increase in costs have been at state universities. The COA at Berkeley is about 130-140K total. That's only about 100K less than the COA at a private university, but about 10X more than the inflation-adjusted cost. The reason the actual cost is 10X more than the inflation-adjusted cost is that the FEDERAL government allows all universities to charge as much as they want.

That moment when you realize dental school costs make my undergrad tuition look like chump change. paid about 50K total for undergrad.
 
Anyone else here plan to or have lived in their parents basement throughout undergrad and dental school? Thats what im doin and im looking at about 100k debt when i finish d school. To me this sounds like alot but after reading this thread i think ill be alright haha
 
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Anyone else here plan to or have lived in their parents basement throughout undergrad and dental school? Thats what im doin and im looking at about 100k debt when i finish d school. To me this sounds like alot but after reading this thread i think ill be alright haha

That is a fantastic plan.
 
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Anyone else here plan to or have lived in their parents basement throughout undergrad and dental school? Thats what im doin and im looking at about 100k debt when i finish d school. To me this sounds like alot but after reading this thread i think ill be alright haha

I'm thinking about doing this as well, assuming I get into the dental school here which is like 10 minutes from my house.
 
if you owe lots of loans but earn not much in income, then utilize IBR/PAYE? I think it's a good idea because you pay 10% of your income regardless of how much you owe, then pay taxes on the remaining balance...
https://studentloans.gov/myDirectLoan/mobile/repayment/repaymentEstimator.action

Yeah, you pay less per month but you'll be paying less than the interest accumulation so you won't be paying your loan down at all. Per http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/college-planning/loan-calculator.aspx a $400,000 loan at 7% interest for 25 years carries a monthly payment of $2827.12. For 20 year repayment the monthly is $3101.20. With IBR/PAYE the new borrower pays 10% of their income for I think 20 years before the rest is forgiven. With a $120,000 yearly income that's only $12,000/yr or $1,000/mth. That is WELL below the monthly payment on a standard 20 year loan and since you're still being charged interest your loan total will not decrease paying $1,000/mth....it'll keep going up. So, keep doing that for 20 years and you'll be left with a HUGE amount for them to forgive errrrr count as taxable income. After 20 years of minimum payments that total for them to "forgive" could be $600,000 and at a tax rate of ~40% that's $240,000 that you'll owe on tax day. I hope you've saved up for it.

Plus I think to use IBR/PAYE you have to reapply each year and show that you're in financial hardship.
 
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