The High Schooler's Dilemma

[dmbxvii]

Hey everybody, I just joined this site a minute ago hoping some of you could help me make a decision I'm unsure of. I either want to go to a 6yr pharmacy school to become a pharmacist, or go premed and then med school to become a doctor (emergency med or internal med). I've been switching back and forth , and honestly I don't know if i'll ever be able to make the decision...both have great benefits over the others and some cons. What I have so far :

Doctor
Pro:
- Diversification
- Sense of worth
- More respected profession
- Higher pay (this isn't really a factor though, because pharmacists are paid really well too just not as much)

Con:
- Little free time (****how true is this)
- Treated poorly (****I'd also like to get more information on this)

Pharmacist
Pro:
- More free time to do hobbies i like (whitewater kayaking, hiking, etc.)
- Good pay
- Easier Work

Con:
- No movement in pay
- No Diversification
- Kind of a simple job ie you have a task and you do it, whereas with doctors every day is a new one (if you know what i mean)

I'd really like to shadow both, and I'm going to try and do that over the summer

For 6 yr pharmacy schools I'm looking at (note im a NY resident)
- Northeastern
- Rutgers

For premed:
- Cornell University
- College of the Holy Cross (I've heard great things about this school)
- Boston College
*Note, if i could ever get into a BA/MD program like at BU, Rutgers, University of Rochester, etc...i would definitely go there

I know im in the med section, could some of you talk to me a little about your profession (for students, what you have come to see of it too)

Thanks so much!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ksmi117]

I'm moving this thread to hSDN, our forum for high school students. Don't worry, plenty of people from all health fields post there.

 

[dmbxvii]

ok thanks a lot admin. Note, ive also been trying to consider where both careers will be in 10-15 years but have had bad luck. Think one will go downhill? Will the current doctor situations be reformed, and will pharmacy jobs no longer be sought after because of the bulk of pharmacy students now in pharm school?

 

[swamprat]

pharmacy is boring, same **** day-in/day-out. i guess medicine can be similar in certain respects too. shadow, thats your best bet ...

 

[dmbxvii]

don't you think the easy hours and lots of free time could negate that though. you could have a normal life, it would just be like your "everyday job" with good money

 

[Caesar]

dmb,

You asked SOOO much in that post. Looks like you have researched a bit which is good at this stage.

My general advice to people is "don't decide too early". The first two years of Pre-med and Pre-pharm are the exact same at most colleges. Personally, I know people who did 2+4 programs for Pharm, and some that waited for 3 years and even a few that got their BS and THEN did pharmD. It seems (anecdotally) that the more time they spent in Undergrad, the happier and better prepared they were for Pharm school. Like many of them say with the 2+4 you don't see BioChem in undergrad so when you hit Pharm it is a bit harder. I realize that time and money are factors when making this decision but none of them regret doing more than 2 years in UG.

That being said, yes you should shadow. You will not be 'locked' into a program that I am aware of and can change your mind at any time. ANY university is a good university to fullfil Pre-reqs .

I am only a senior in undergrad, but let me share my observations (key word: observations) about physicians. The Doc that I shadow is female with 2 young kids. She practices Emergency Medicine and within her group can move her shifts around so that she can sometimes have a week (or even two) off at a time (by working every day the previous 2 weeks, which after residency 'ain't all that bad'). They travel all over the world. Even in the ER, however, there are things you see all the time so it can get repetitive (everyone and thier mother has chest pain somedays, other days it is abdominal pain, and on the worst days they all just want narcotics). Physicians are very well respected by patients when they are with the doctor (even if most don't listen to medical advice). Doctors are typically treated really well, so I don't really know what you meant by that part. Doctors do make alot of money. Regardless of what some of the haggard "the gov'ment is taking all of my money, yada yada" types say they typically are in the upper 5-10% of income earners in the nation. THAT being said the education is very expensive. We are talking something like $150,000 - 250,000 (I refuse to look at the stats because I know it is going to suck).

My advice is to not really "worry" about the income levels. Find which one you would be happy doing, and if it is neither, that is okay too. Whichever you decide is best for you, do that! Because at the end of the day, if you aren't happy with what you do then it ALL was a waste of time and money.

Also, in defense of pharmacists I don't think the work is easier. They are by and large treated as retailers and not professionals MUCH more often than physicians (again, just my observations). Doctors, especially in the ER, don't have to worry about selling drugs to them and insurance and what not. Often in retail the pharmacists do.

 

[mathlegend]

don't you think the easy hours and lots of free time could negate that though. you could have a normal life, it would just be like your "everyday job" with good money

Depends if you enjoy it or not. If you do, doing the same thing everyday, you will be fine. If not, you'll find it really boring...

 

[MilkmanAl]

pharmacy is boring, same **** day-in/day-out.

I'll take all the boring, predictable, 40-hour weeks they want to throw at me for $60/hr plus 1.5 time for overtime. That sounds freaking awesome.

 

[Crazyday]

Hey everybody, I just joined this site a minute ago hoping some of you could help me make a decision I'm unsure of. I either want to go to a 6yr pharmacy school to become a pharmacist, or go premed and then med school to become a doctor (emergency med or internal med). I've been switching back and forth , and honestly I don't know if i'll ever be able to make the decision...both have great benefits over the others and some cons. What I have so far :

Doctor
Pro:
- Diversification
- Sense of worth
- More respected profession
- Higher pay (this isn't really a factor though, because pharmacists are paid really well too just not as much)

Con:
- Little free time (****how true is this)
- Treated poorly (****I'd also like to get more information on this)

Pharmacist
Pro:
- More free time to do hobbies i like (whitewater kayaking, hiking, etc.)
- Good pay
- Easier Work

Con:
- No movement in pay
- No Diversification
- Kind of a simple job ie you have a task and you do it, whereas with doctors every day is a new one (if you know what i mean)

I'd really like to shadow both, and I'm going to try and do that over the summer

For 6 yr pharmacy schools I'm looking at (note im a NY resident)
- Northeastern
- Rutgers

For premed:
- Cornell University
- College of the Holy Cross (I've heard great things about this school)
- Boston College
*Note, if i could ever get into a BA/MD program like at BU, Rutgers, University of Rochester, etc...i would definitely go there

I know im in the med section, could some of you talk to me a little about your profession (for students, what you have come to see of it too)

Thanks so much!

Well, always assuming that Obama doesn't completely drop the ball on the medical field, here's some ideas for you to think about. Note that I haven't read about pharmacy at all, so I am going to strictly discuss medicine.

First, going on the MD/DO track is a long process. You must go through 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, 3-7 years of residency, and then to specialize further another 1-3 years of fellowship. Most residencies are 3-4 years, so you're looking at 12 years of education (without a fellowship) for most specialties. You say you want to do emergency medicine, that's a 3-4 year residency; you may wish to go into something else by the time you get to your 4th year of medical school and you actually have real experience.

Your pros for being a physician seem off. Going off to be a physician for those reasons (namely prestige) is setting yourself up for disappointment; you may feel more valuable and feel like you're really helping humanity, but you aren't going to have a special glow just because you're a doctor. You'll just be another human being, and the respect given to doctors by the common people isn't the same as it once was. Most physicians do make more money than most pharmacists, with some specialties being more lucrative than others. Also keep in mind that you will most likely rack up roughly $200,000-$400,000 in debt through medical school (counting interest) by the time you can pay it off as an attending (that is in today's economic climate; who knows here in 10 years).

You are correct in that physicians work long hours. Some specialties are worse than others, with surgical residencies being the most strenuous. Your 3rd and 4th year of medical school will expose you to these specialties, and during some of your rotations (typically 1 month per specialty) you will have very little, if any, free time. Depending on what specialty you plan to go into, residency could be very similar. Residents are able to be worked 80 hours a week averaged over 4 weeks. Some weeks you may be working over 80 hours, others a little less. Keep in mind that residents must also keep up on paperwork and research within their field of study on their time off. As an attending, your hours may or may not decrease; in some fields they may even increase, as the hour cap rule does not apply to attendings as it does to residents.

As a resident and med student, you may be treated poorly by higher ups at times. Otherwise, physicians are treated pretty well.

As I said above, I can't speak for the field of pharmacy. I know I put the medical field in a pretty grim light here, but it is a big sacrifice; there's no reason to paint it as sunshine and daisies when it's not. You have to really want it.

I would suggest you continue reading these forums, including the premed and allopathic boards. Sift through what students and physicians say about the field of medicine, and pay attention to both the positive and negative sides of medicine and pharmacy. I've learned so much about medicine and what physicians do on a daily basis over the last year or so by reading these forums; I think you can learn more from blogs and these forums than you can through any other method. Given that, I would still suggest that you shadow physicians and pharmacists both and get a good first hand view of what each field does.

 

[dmbxvii]

By being treated poorly, I meant referring to the skyrocketing malpractice suits (and insurance) and the lack of respect from patients- sorry for being unclear on that. And yes, the fact that the amount of money it takes in the end to become and md is huge and something i failed to mention in there. See, I really would love to be a Doctor. Always thought I would be one. It's difficult too because when i get out of pharmacy school, I'd be 24. That's huge because I'd be really young with a lot of "youth" still in me. I could pursue side interests as well. By the time I finished 4 yrs undergrad, 4 years med, internship, and residency...I'd be about 30.

 

[dmbxvii]

thanks for that great post crazyday, i'll definitely do what you said and continue the research and get some "primary sources." and yes, as soon as I can, i'm going to try and shadow both

 

[Caesar]

30 is still young. People live well into their 60s and 70s now. 100 years ago or so 50 was a big deal.

The lack of respect from patients I really don't see that often except from people who are only there for drugs or already high on drugs. I can't think of any sober person that has ever been disrespectful at all. When I am in the ER with her we will see about 20-30 patients, I average about 2-3 visits per month for a year so what is the math on that? 480 patients (being conservative) and it has never popped up. Not that it won't, I am sure it does, but I haven't seen it being common by any means. An attending could speak better to that though, I just know the one doctor in the one setting. Very limited. And as far as Malpractice is concerned: earnings that you find on line, I am told, are typically after paying those costs. They are net, not gross. For EM, all three places I have been in (a top 10 hospital, midsized level-1 trauma, and rural hospital) have had the group paying the MalPrac costs as part of the contract. I am sure it comes from their earnings but it is something none of these doctors ever had to think about. It is expensive though, I won't lie, I know that much.

 

[Caesar]

I would add on here just a caveat that people who are happy tend not to post how awesome their job is without prompting, however, those having a bad day will certainly post about how much it sucks. Here is your official SDN grain of salt . Take it with you everywhere you go.... It is huge for a reason.

 

[sumstorm]

My cousin is a pharm and she does not do the same thing day in and day out. She works in chemo at a children's hospital and helps doctors determine the best pharm combos. For her, each case is unique and unusual. Her SO is a store pharm, and he says there is a lot of repetitiveness, but that he only works unusual/less desirable shifts and makes great money doing it. I know another pharm who specializes in geriatric poly-pharms.

Technically, the argument about doing the same thing over and over again can be made about areas of med as well: most gynocologists do the same routine exams repeatedly.

Beyond that, I think shadowing and talking to those in the areas you are interested in will provide you with the most information.

 

[dmbxvii]

There's a lot of excitement as an ER doctor and other specialties, and pharmacy has it's own distinctive advantages too (like I wouldn't mind at all sunstorms cousins or her cousin's SO *son?* 's job) and there can be interesting subfields. That's what makes the decision incredibly hard. Even though I'm really going to have to shadow both, I like the intellectual stew we're stirring right now haha. It's helping me see different sides and benefits of both

EDIT: It's also really hard Caesar to illustrate the daily gratifications of being a doctor/pharmacists through text. You really need to be in their shoes and experience/feel

 

[Tots]

Go to undergrad and leave your options open. The pre-reqs for Pharm school and Med school are similar enough.

 

[AryaStark]

Same with dental school. Just another that you could consider later on.

Go to undergrad and leave your options open. The pre-reqs for Pharm school and Med school are similar enough.

 

[PreMedMommy]

You are still very young, and a lot can happy between now and 2 or 4 years down the road. It is excellent that you are thinking about things seriously right now and researching your options, but you will learn a lot in the next few years that will help you make a better informed decision of what you want to do with your life. You will have to take the same classes anyways whether its for pre-med or a combined pharmacy program, so there is no need to commit to one or the other right now. I have known many, many, MANY people who go to college thinking they wanted to be a doctor (pharm, nurse, dentist, etc) and realized that there are other things out there that they enjoy more. I would recommend going to any undergrad of your choosing, doing your prereqs, and waiting a couple of years before you make your ulitmate decision. You may even discover that neither of these options suit you after all.

 

[dmbxvii]

I understand that the prereqs for the 2+4 programs are similar to premed, but what about the first two years of a straight 6 yr pharm program?
EDIT: I would never, ever become a dentist. My mom is one, so I know exactly what it's like and what is done and nothing about dentistry interests me. I've also worked at her office for the past 4 summers

 

[Bacchus]

I have a TON of pharmacy friends. Those that are going into retail know it will be the same stuff the majority of the time. However, once you leave retail and enter clinical, nuclear, etc you won't be doing the same thing everyday.

I HIGHLY recommend University of the Sciences in Philadelphia if you're going to pursue pharmacy (1st pharmacy college in the US - 1821). Even if you don't, it prepares students incredibly well for medical school. www.usp.edu Check it out. My only regret was cost.

 

[greatnt249]

I'd say your best option would be to actually shadow practitioners of the fields you are interested in, as well as keep your options open as to what specialty you might be interested (if shadowing medicine/surgery). Shadowing has many advantages:

1. You'll be able to observe professionals themselves doing what they do day in/day out as well as ask questions that they can answer, which IMHO is better than relying on idle speculation you'd find elsewhere.

2. You'll satisfy any shadowing requirements that certain professional schools want to see upon future application.

3. Shadowing experiences can provide at least a little perspective and insight as to what you'd be getting yourself into, and it's always better to find out early that professional lifestyles aren't as glamorous as you thought they'd be than it is to be locked into a profession that you hate.

4. You might be able to obtain a letter of recommendation out of a good shadowing experience. That might not mean much now, but when you're applying to professional school, good LORs are golden.

Anyway, that's just my $0.02; I learned a lot from shadowing different physicians. Don't worry about locking yourself into a specialty now; you'll have plenty of time to figure that out during clinical rotations in medical school (if that's what you choose to do).

 

[Vicviper]

Haha, it was so funny, I'm reading through all of the posts, and I'm like, why isn't anyone mentioning dental? It has most all of the pro's of Med and Pharm, with only a few of the cons, but then you dropped that bomb on me, hahaha, d'oh. Is your mom a specialist? I do hear some people find Ortho incredibly boring.... well anyways...

Like everyone else is suggesting, I'd highly advise to shadow, as that's going to be really the only way to see what you actually like. Money shouldn't be that big of an issue, you'll live at least very comfortably either way. And also, you can have all the prestige in the world, but if you hate what you're doing you might as well be working at Micky D's.

As for being treated poorly as a doctor, I can attest to this - my dad was in Internal Medicine for one of the biggest West Coast HMO's... name is a type of bread.... and while he loved working with his patients, and he always won awards for having the highest patient satisfaction ratings, the administrators all too often treat it like high school, and they don't give doctors the respect they deserve, and after 30 years as a doctor he just couldn't take it anymore and retired early. And while he would have supported me if I chose medicine as my calling, he was glad that I picked dental because of this and all the other hardships that are being put on doctors that they didn't used to have, especially since the outlook for medicine keeps getting darker.

But... in review, shadow and see what you like, or rather, see which job you could imagine yourself truely enjoying for the next 30 years, that's really the most important thing. Good lucK!

 

[Darklord]

DMB,

I am accepted into a 6 year pharmacy program (but I will be doing me BS in 3 years making it 7), but I am still interested in medicine. Note that BA/MD programs are extremely competitive. You have to be ivy league material to attend.

As many have already said, your undergraduate curriculum will be the same for all health professional fields- you have time.

If you want to be proactive, you can try for such combined programs. Apply for both medicine and pharmacy (note that there are other careers out there: veterinary medicine, podiatry, physician assisting, clinical psychology, optometry, ect) and see what happens.

Best of Luck,
Darklord

 

[Firebird]

30 is still young. People live well into their 60s and 70s now. 100 years ago or so 50 was a big deal.

The lack of respect from patients I really don't see that often except from people who are only there for drugs or already high on drugs. I can't think of any sober person that has ever been disrespectful at all. When I am in the ER with her we will see about 20-30 patients, I average about 2-3 visits per month for a year so what is the math on that? 480 patients (being conservative) and it has never popped up. Not that it won't, I am sure it does, but I haven't seen it being common by any means. An attending could speak better to that though, I just know the one doctor in the one setting. Very limited. And as far as Malpractice is concerned: earnings that you find on line, I am told, are typically after paying those costs. They are net, not gross. For EM, all three places I have been in (a top 10 hospital, midsized level-1 trauma, and rural hospital) have had the group paying the MalPrac costs as part of the contract. I am sure it comes from their earnings but it is something none of these doctors ever had to think about. It is expensive though, I won't lie, I know that much.

50 has never been a big deal in terms of life-expectancy. 1000's of years ago, there were people living to be 80, 90, 100. Average life-expectancy has gone up dramatically in modern times ONLY because of the massive decrease in childhood deaths. There were obviously less people living to 80, which is essentially now the average life-expectancy, but it did occur.

Anyway, if you haven't seen a sober, non-drug seeking be disrespectful, then I invite you to spend the rest of the month on our inpatient team. So far this month, I would estimate that we have seen a dozen rude, unfriendly or inappropriate patients. I have never experienced this degree of disrespect in my career.

No matter what job you go into...medicine, pharmacy, banker, telemarketer or trash collector, you will find out that in general, the public can be unreasonable and disrespectful at the drop of a hat. So you can either get paid minimum wage or $200,000 plus benefits.

At any rate, if you're trying to determine whether you want to go into medicine or pharmacy, the biggest difference is that in medicine, you run the show. In pharmacy, you play a key role in patient care, but you are not the central element. The physician knows pharmacology, practices diagnostics with physical exam, radiography, laboratory studies and most importantly history taking. He or she also has a significant rapport with the patient that in itself is therapeutic. The pharmacist generally has a deep and wide knowledge of drugs and can make a huge difference. So think about those things.