- Joined
- Dec 25, 2006
- Messages
- 207
- Reaction score
- 2
the DPT forum is dead
- Thread starter PREMEDWOAHS
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2007
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 0
Well it does not have to be dead! LOL! I think the conversation about DC vs. DPT is a good one. Personally, I will never hate chiropractic because I know it does have some good to offer. Lets face it, it has patient satisfaction and name recognition but lacks the support in the research. The lack of support in research justifies the medical communities dissatisfaction with it. That is the bottom line. Now, like others who have spoke about straight chiropractic vs. evidence based models, I too believe that only the evidence based practice models are legitimate. Now does this mean that straight chiropractic has nothing to offer? No! To some, it offers total satisfaction even if it is some form of high energy subluxation theory (whatever). Now some may say, it is a "placebo effect", but in reality who cares. If some forms of chiropractic satisfy the mind or reduce stress then it may very well have a physiological effect after all; perhaps a psychosomatic condition. Some research designs in chiropractic would be better served by investigating the psychological processes that intervene between mind and body. If it is sound physiological evidence that straight chiropractic seeks, then they will need to show support with double blind clinical studies. Now the scamming that occurs within the profession is a very negative thing. I do however doubt that most DCs will resort to this type of practice, because most people investing in a chiropractic career want to be legitimate and help people, thus gaining respect, credibility, and popularity. My mother is a DPT and she respects good chiropractor who understand the ethics and scientific scrutiny their profession must endure.
As for Physical Therapy, well there is nothing but good brewing within this profession. Now granted, there will be some reduction in reimbursements in the near future, but that is inevitable, however it is never static (if you know anything about the medical field). The research is in full support by the medical community, and the field is time tested and very respected (for the most part). The capabilities of future DPTs are expanding and the field will have its full autonomy in years to come. The new doctors of Physical Therapy are pioneers, but they do not have to be enemies to chiropractor that can practice evidence based chiropractic care.
As for Physical Therapy, well there is nothing but good brewing within this profession. Now granted, there will be some reduction in reimbursements in the near future, but that is inevitable, however it is never static (if you know anything about the medical field). The research is in full support by the medical community, and the field is time tested and very respected (for the most part). The capabilities of future DPTs are expanding and the field will have its full autonomy in years to come. The new doctors of Physical Therapy are pioneers, but they do not have to be enemies to chiropractor that can practice evidence based chiropractic care.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,082
- Reaction score
- 9
Don't ever do that again...I got enough of that twit in high school. As to Britton's post, I agree with about 50% of what you're saying mate!
So,
Excellent points made above...
As a chiro student I can tell you that more than an issue between Straights and Mixers (i.e. - EBP, usually) the more global problem amongst Chiros is that many are more like a bunch of Cowboys circling the wagon and shooting in at their own kind..... and that is extremely unfortunate. My experience thus far, is that in many ways - Chiropractic's worst enemy is itself.
I come from arguably the most EBP Chiro school, and can tell you that we subscribe to no gimmicks or trickery. But, as is the case with any large range of medicine you are bound to have many modalities and along with them - varying interpretations of any given modality. Along the topic of quackery/gimmicks - often times people forget that there are at the very least just as many sham DO's & MD's out there. Furthermore - the definition of EBP really needs to be exploited here.... Evidence Based Practice - DOES NOT MEAN "To Live and Die by clinical Research alone"! It DOES include interpreting both clinical research and one's practical experiences - with the intention to aid in proper selection and development of the best current treatment plan for your patients. In fact - a large portion of Western Medicine is unable to be answered by such "clinical" research. There are many many practices & procedures that are used in the provision of modern medicine that are used by the, "we don't know why it works... it just does" approach.
As for the research aspect..... 100% agree! There just aren't enough Doc's out there getting involved with research. IMHO - that is partially due to lack of such exposure in most of the DC curriculums. As more schools approach/embrace the EBP model - I would imagine through the evolution of the medicine alone, (hopefully) it will entice Chiropractors further into the research arena. With that said, there are some really credible projects underway currently.
Well, there is much to be discussed in the months/years of our training to come... time has come to hit the books again!
Best wishes in your medical endeavors!
Excellent points made above...
As a chiro student I can tell you that more than an issue between Straights and Mixers (i.e. - EBP, usually) the more global problem amongst Chiros is that many are more like a bunch of Cowboys circling the wagon and shooting in at their own kind..... and that is extremely unfortunate. My experience thus far, is that in many ways - Chiropractic's worst enemy is itself.
I come from arguably the most EBP Chiro school, and can tell you that we subscribe to no gimmicks or trickery. But, as is the case with any large range of medicine you are bound to have many modalities and along with them - varying interpretations of any given modality. Along the topic of quackery/gimmicks - often times people forget that there are at the very least just as many sham DO's & MD's out there. Furthermore - the definition of EBP really needs to be exploited here.... Evidence Based Practice - DOES NOT MEAN "To Live and Die by clinical Research alone"! It DOES include interpreting both clinical research and one's practical experiences - with the intention to aid in proper selection and development of the best current treatment plan for your patients. In fact - a large portion of Western Medicine is unable to be answered by such "clinical" research. There are many many practices & procedures that are used in the provision of modern medicine that are used by the, "we don't know why it works... it just does" approach.
As for the research aspect..... 100% agree! There just aren't enough Doc's out there getting involved with research. IMHO - that is partially due to lack of such exposure in most of the DC curriculums. As more schools approach/embrace the EBP model - I would imagine through the evolution of the medicine alone, (hopefully) it will entice Chiropractors further into the research arena. With that said, there are some really credible projects underway currently.
Well, there is much to be discussed in the months/years of our training to come... time has come to hit the books again!
Best wishes in your medical endeavors!
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
- Messages
- 170
- Reaction score
- 8
Honestly, I would rather spend my time and loans on a profession that will pay off at the end and give out less bullshi*. Physical Therapy, Medicine, nursing, pa or any allied health profession will all yield a decent to great living while a chiro will always have to struggle to earn an income (teaching people about chiro or getting new patients). At the end, a Dr will send a patient to a physical therapist rather than a chiropractor for rehab treatment. So for all you people that are interested in a profession, I suggest you spend your time and loans into medicine or allied health. At the end, what matters is getting the job.
Interestingly enough - you are NOT 100% correct!
Your geographical location actually has a tremendous part in both your ability to treat as well as the potential income generated. Prior to moving to the West coast, my wife (a DO) and I lived back East. In fact you are so off with the above mentioned statement about earning income - as it regards to geography - that not only do most MD's & DO's out here refer constantly to DCs, but my wife will be starting at a salary that is almost triple the income as it would have been for the same position back east.
I know of almost no practitioner that is not doing very well for themselves. In fact the majority of Chiro Docs that I know in any regard, work 3-to-4 days per week, because that's all they have to work.
On another note, to arrogantly and ignorantly make comments pertaining to the amount of bullshi* that comes out of a particular school - might not serve you as well as you think. The majority, of our rehab course work it taught by none other than your own kind. And, isn't it PTs that are beginning to offer and use more and more Manipulative medicine these days....
Before you leap to discredit something that you might not have the strongest supporting knowledge about, you might consider this quote:
"A critic is someone who looks into a microscope and discovers their own eye"
p.s. Upon understanding your current position - one of which you have NOT EVEN BEGAN your studies yet, you might consider quickly and strongly dismantling your negative attitude about other medical modalities. Those exact modalities that you talk down on will likely serve both you and your patients great health & fortune in the future. For in the very near future you will learn 2 things from this..... 1) To run around with the attempt to discredit others will serve you no worth, not to mention potentially hurt you in your learnings in the future.... 2) Once you begin your studies and realize the very close similarities between PT & DC, let alone the difficulties each field struggles with - you might consider coming back to this post one day to make the necessary updates to your ignorant comments.
Your geographical location actually has a tremendous part in both your ability to treat as well as the potential income generated. Prior to moving to the West coast, my wife (a DO) and I lived back East. In fact you are so off with the above mentioned statement about earning income - as it regards to geography - that not only do most MD's & DO's out here refer constantly to DCs, but my wife will be starting at a salary that is almost triple the income as it would have been for the same position back east.
I know of almost no practitioner that is not doing very well for themselves. In fact the majority of Chiro Docs that I know in any regard, work 3-to-4 days per week, because that's all they have to work.
On another note, to arrogantly and ignorantly make comments pertaining to the amount of bullshi* that comes out of a particular school - might not serve you as well as you think. The majority, of our rehab course work it taught by none other than your own kind. And, isn't it PTs that are beginning to offer and use more and more Manipulative medicine these days....
Before you leap to discredit something that you might not have the strongest supporting knowledge about, you might consider this quote:
"A critic is someone who looks into a microscope and discovers their own eye"
p.s. Upon understanding your current position - one of which you have NOT EVEN BEGAN your studies yet, you might consider quickly and strongly dismantling your negative attitude about other medical modalities. Those exact modalities that you talk down on will likely serve both you and your patients great health & fortune in the future. For in the very near future you will learn 2 things from this..... 1) To run around with the attempt to discredit others will serve you no worth, not to mention potentially hurt you in your learnings in the future.... 2) Once you begin your studies and realize the very close similarities between PT & DC, let alone the difficulties each field struggles with - you might consider coming back to this post one day to make the necessary updates to your ignorant comments.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
- Messages
- 170
- Reaction score
- 8
I may be ignorant in the chiropractic field but I didnt post any negative comments about the field. My friend is studying to be one at Life University. She loves it. Great Im happy for her, but I dont want her touching me. Then, she gave me a huge education lesson and I listened. I didnt fight. I listened. But, its my body and I did not want her touching me. I may be missing out on something good but I prefer not to explore that option. Yup thats ignorant for not getting free treatment but I had a choice and decided not to do it. I wasn't screaming or yelling chiropractic is evil or bullshi*. I gladly declined no and she said your choice. She said the door will always be open for me. She told me that she will have to spend the rest of her life educating the public on the field. That is one big obstacle for her.
What I meant by bullshi* was just dealing with the negatives of the chiropractic profession (trying to get people interested in the field, dealing with insurance, loans/debt,payment, educating people, and getting patients). You are pro chiropractic thats great but the majority of people in the United States dont know much on this profession and need some type of education. However, many Americans know a dr, nurse, or a physical therapist or even a hospital. Thats why chiropractors will need to spend most of their time educating this alternative before someone decides what the hell I might as well try this out and see if what this person is telling me is true. You can go all out ranting and raving on the benefits of chiropractic but you need to enlighten someone first before that person decides to spend money on treatment and that is a difficult job unlike a medical dr who sends a patient to a physical therapist. Not to mention a Physical Therapist is salaried at a hospital setting. The PT will always get an income.
In China for example, there is a hospital where patients can choose eastern and western medicine. It is a big hallway. They choose which form of treatment to get. They go for the alternative medicine instead of the western style. However, here in the US, most people have a Medical Dr. as a primary care giver instead of a chiropractor.
You spent all this money and time getting your education. Should you at least be compensated for your knowledge and expertese? I dont know the salary off hand for a chiropractor but a physical therapist is about 54-60k for 7 years of education (Undergraduate/Professional). A friend of mine who is a nurse up in Jersey with 1 years experiance and makes 68k. She loves it. Freedom, Flexability, and less bullshi* except for the rambling, grumbling, and annoying hospital politics.
In professions like nursing for example. You work a hospital shift, you get PAID for that shift. No bullshi* involved. You worked your hours and get PAID for the time. Simple as 1,2 OR 3 or EVEN A B C.You get a steady income.
In chiropractic, you hustle to get patients. If you dont get patients then you dont get an income. Am I right on this one? The world doesn't stop for you. You still need to pay your loans, bills, insurance, and pay for food. Same as an outpatient physical therapist. However, a hospital Dr. would send a patient to a Physical Therapist rather than a Chiropractor for rehab treatment.
My aim to this board was to help people get into physical therapy school. Share my views and experiances on physical therapy and NOT chiropractic. To my knowledge, I didnt write any negative views.
However, you want to pick a fight then I suggest you play with PT2MD. I really do not feel like fighting with a well educated chiropractor who decided to hop into the Physical therapy forums. Its more like a black ant going into a red ant hive. So write your posts to PT2MD. He seems to have a kick out of discussing his opinions. As for me, thanks for the insult, but last time I checked this was a physical therapy/occupational therapy forum and not chiropractic. Maybe you should make a post of turning this forum into physical therapy, occupational therapy, and chiropractic.
*I did not write any negative views on chiropractic*. However, you need patients inorder to survive right? Patients=Income=Survival. I would much rather spend my time on a profession that offers a guarantee instead of the strong survive and the weak get destroyed and eaten.
In nursing for example. A nurse can fart and get a job. TONS of Job opportunities. Hospitals PAYING people to be nurses. Is it the same for a chiropractor. Think about that. Notice I didnt say anything bad about chiropractic. Is there a guarantee. Sure you deal with a lot of hospital B.S. but you will earn a decent living. Supply and Demand. I would assume another obstacle in the chiropractic field is the heavy competition among chiropractors getting patients. Is it a flooded profession? Its the same with PT's but a PT would have a much easier time getting a job.
I guess I pissed you off when I said the word bullshi*, but I did not say chiropractic is a bullshi* profession (Now that would be ignorant). Chiropractic field deals with a lot of bullshi*. Problems would of been a better word.. Excuse my writing. I write in two languages (English and Polish). Sometimes I receive a brain fart and usually someone reads something wrong and gets pissed then decides to write a huge post bashing me =].
Anyways enjoy yourself on this forum. Notice I didnt bash the chiropractic profession.
Another thing. There are bad eggs in every profession. Notice Mr. Health South going to jail. Dr giving steroids to a wrestler. Chiropractor stories on Chirobase.org. Nurse killing patient.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2006
- Messages
- 207
- Reaction score
- 2
If your a Chiropractor, get out of our forum so we can have our little uneducated conversations with our preconceived notions about chiropractics and damn the whole practice.
---sarcasm, but realize your stepping into a piranha tank in a much "anti-chiro" forum.
---sarcasm, but realize your stepping into a piranha tank in a much "anti-chiro" forum.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,082
- Reaction score
- 9
Eazzy trigger. Let's at least try to be civil about this. Also I thought the inital topic was "The DPT forum is dead". Not sure how we got here, but anyhoo.
I think there are chiropractors steering away from the subluxation theory and that is a good thing. Unfortunately they will be shooting themselves in the foot because the majority of the profession is build upon this fundamental myth. Ironically, if the chiros are interested in saving their profession, they should go down supporting the subluxation theory because that is what has distinguished them from legitimate medical professions.
If they start treating based on sound clinical reasoning (i.e. mixers and such), they will have difficulty sustaining a practice as their volume would most surely drop. This is exactly what is happening now. It's a tricky proposition for the chiros: Support subluxation and make money while you can or practice based on a "mixed" philosophy and loose your patient base.
On a side note, why does this have to be a flame war? Their are important differences of opinion that can be discussed without insults. I feel strongly about these issues, but I won't (read = will try my hardest) make it personal. I always welcome productive debate.
I think there are chiropractors steering away from the subluxation theory and that is a good thing. Unfortunately they will be shooting themselves in the foot because the majority of the profession is build upon this fundamental myth. Ironically, if the chiros are interested in saving their profession, they should go down supporting the subluxation theory because that is what has distinguished them from legitimate medical professions.
If they start treating based on sound clinical reasoning (i.e. mixers and such), they will have difficulty sustaining a practice as their volume would most surely drop. This is exactly what is happening now. It's a tricky proposition for the chiros: Support subluxation and make money while you can or practice based on a "mixed" philosophy and loose your patient base.
On a side note, why does this have to be a flame war? Their are important differences of opinion that can be discussed without insults. I feel strongly about these issues, but I won't (read = will try my hardest) make it personal. I always welcome productive debate.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
- Messages
- 170
- Reaction score
- 8
I am not trying to insult LTD. I clearly said that there are other professions that deal with less problems. He just got all explosive b/c i added bullshi* instead of problems. I love how he explains the issue. I wish I could write like that. My buddy has a masters in English. He writes very well and clearly. However, he works at a freaken coffee shop making less than 25k and living with parents, but he writes so dam awsome. What a way to spend your education and your life.
As for me, I start my education in about a month. I know when I finish, I will get tuition reimbersement from a hospital. Flexible work hours~3 12 hour shifts and get paid a decent income. Plus, ample opportunity to do different types of settings. Thats how I want to spend my life. Personal reasons why I chose nursing over PT. I just weighed the pro's and con's in the two professions.
Again, I did not write anything negative on the chiropractic field. If he is a chiropractor then thats great. He needs to earn an income as well. However, I would assume he deals with a lot of obstacles unlike other professions.
As for me, I start my education in about a month. I know when I finish, I will get tuition reimbersement from a hospital. Flexible work hours~3 12 hour shifts and get paid a decent income. Plus, ample opportunity to do different types of settings. Thats how I want to spend my life. Personal reasons why I chose nursing over PT. I just weighed the pro's and con's in the two professions.
Again, I did not write anything negative on the chiropractic field. If he is a chiropractor then thats great. He needs to earn an income as well. However, I would assume he deals with a lot of obstacles unlike other professions.
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2005
- Messages
- 1,000
- Reaction score
- 3
You're still a student correct? Although you can call gruesome and other non-DCs ignorant...interestingly enough, many of your predecessors seems to oppose your view point. I assume you have read the numerous testimonies of practicing DCs and their own criticisms of the profession on chirotalk? That is probably a more appropriate forum to discuss the problems of chiropractics.
http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,082
- Reaction score
- 9
WOW
That is a great website. I appreciate the reference. A definite read for folks considering careers in chiropractic. There is a really good article on DC's moving toward careers as DPT's. Very interesting viewpoints. I always had an intuition that the chiro profession was hurting, but this website points to some good data outlining just how bad off they really are.- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
- Messages
- 170
- Reaction score
- 8
"Your geographical location actually has a tremendous part in both your ability to treat as well as the potential income generated. Prior to moving to the West coast, my wife (a DO) and I lived back East. In fact you are so off with the above mentioned statement about earning income - as it regards to geography - that not only do most MD's & DO's out here refer constantly to DCs, but my wife will be starting at a salary that is almost triple the income as it would have been for the same position back east."
Now I have a clue why you are a medical student~the financial income, THE JOB as a Dr or DO, and how people recognize your title as a Dr or DO. I guess you were struggling in your profession while your wife was doing great financially so you decided to take the plundge and be a medical student. Keep at it. It will pay out at the end =). Then you will be a medical DR. Judging by your response to issues, you will be an arrogant Dr.
As a Dr or DO, you can still talk your opinions in chiropractic yet you recieve a medical DR or DO salary. I find that odd.. Why not just stick being a chiropractor? Too much of a struggle? Do you want to have Dr's and DO's refer to you? You choose opposite b/c you know you can live well off as a Dr and DO. You will have less problems.
You can preach and talk all you want, but at the end what matters most is your profession. You need to pay your bills. You need to pay for food and clothes. You need to pay off that large lump sum of money you borrowed as a medical student. You need to make money to survive in whatever you choose to do until retirement. You turned that C in DC into R or O =).
You talk the talk but did you walk the walk? If you like and defend the chiropractor profession then why become a Dr or DO? Stay a chiropractor!
Notice~I did not talk anything negative about the profession so dont get all fancy and say bah your ignorant blah blah blah. I remain open to that profession but would I invest my education/time in it and do it for a living? No, I choose a profession that offers less problems.
Overrated Career: Chiropractor
By Marty Nemko
Posted 12/18/06
The Appeal
You can treat disease, even if you don't have the grades for a top medical school, and you can also set up shop as a solo operator. It's especially alluring to people with misgivings about mainstream medicine.
Reality
Some chiropractors think that spinal manipulation can relieve not just back pain, but everything from asthma to premenstrual syndrome. But the National Institutes of Health and other authorities have been skeptical of the effectiveness of chiropractic. And research shows that mainstream treatments for lower back pain are equally effective. Many chiropractors also devote considerable time to marketing—in part to pay back the cost of chiropractic school, usually over $100,000
Alternative
Physician assistant. They get to do much of what doctors do, with less costly training.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/061218/18overrated.chiro.htm
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/best_careers_2007/
Now I have a clue why you are a medical student~the financial income, THE JOB as a Dr or DO, and how people recognize your title as a Dr or DO. I guess you were struggling in your profession while your wife was doing great financially so you decided to take the plundge and be a medical student. Keep at it. It will pay out at the end =). Then you will be a medical DR. Judging by your response to issues, you will be an arrogant Dr.
As a Dr or DO, you can still talk your opinions in chiropractic yet you recieve a medical DR or DO salary. I find that odd.. Why not just stick being a chiropractor? Too much of a struggle? Do you want to have Dr's and DO's refer to you? You choose opposite b/c you know you can live well off as a Dr and DO. You will have less problems.
You can preach and talk all you want, but at the end what matters most is your profession. You need to pay your bills. You need to pay for food and clothes. You need to pay off that large lump sum of money you borrowed as a medical student. You need to make money to survive in whatever you choose to do until retirement. You turned that C in DC into R or O =).
You talk the talk but did you walk the walk? If you like and defend the chiropractor profession then why become a Dr or DO? Stay a chiropractor!
Notice~I did not talk anything negative about the profession so dont get all fancy and say bah your ignorant blah blah blah. I remain open to that profession but would I invest my education/time in it and do it for a living? No, I choose a profession that offers less problems.
Overrated Career: Chiropractor
By Marty Nemko
Posted 12/18/06
The Appeal
You can treat disease, even if you don't have the grades for a top medical school, and you can also set up shop as a solo operator. It's especially alluring to people with misgivings about mainstream medicine.
Reality
Some chiropractors think that spinal manipulation can relieve not just back pain, but everything from asthma to premenstrual syndrome. But the National Institutes of Health and other authorities have been skeptical of the effectiveness of chiropractic. And research shows that mainstream treatments for lower back pain are equally effective. Many chiropractors also devote considerable time to marketing—in part to pay back the cost of chiropractic school, usually over $100,000
Alternative
Physician assistant. They get to do much of what doctors do, with less costly training.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/061218/18overrated.chiro.htm
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/best_careers_2007/
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 4
Just to clarify:
1. D.O.= Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine
2. M.D.= Doctor of Medicine
3. D.C.= Doctor of Chiropractic
1&2 are both Medical Doctors but 1,2,&3 are Doctors.
1. D.O.= Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine
2. M.D.= Doctor of Medicine
3. D.C.= Doctor of Chiropractic
1&2 are both Medical Doctors but 1,2,&3 are Doctors.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,082
- Reaction score
- 9
All three are referred to as doctors. I will never call a chiropractor a doctor until they earn the distinction. Before you think I'm bashing the profession, I believe the same goes for DPT's.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 4
Distinction from what? Good for you that you will never call a chiropractor a doctor. The millions of people that go to see chiropractors do. I do. Apparently the state licensing boards do. Besides, the term "doctor" is derived from the latin word "docere" which means "teacher." Medical doctors, chiropractors, even physical therapists educate their patients in ways to be healthy and isn't that what being a "doctor" is about? Why do you think Ph.D.s are called Dr._____? Because they are teachers.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,082
- Reaction score
- 9
Thanks for the latin lesson. When a patient calls someone "doctor" it's often a presumption that the provider posesses a body of knowledge sufficient to care for their health. If you believe chiropractors (DC) or physical therapists (DPT) possess this degree of knowledge, you have a lot to learn. Ph.D's are academic doctorates and are part of a different discussion entirely. You and I will need to agree to disagree on this issue, but you have to acknowledge the total inadequacy of chiropractic education in this country as insufficient to warrant the title of "doctor". Once you earn your legitimate doctorate, you will value your title enough not to let it be misused by other professions.
Here's another example. Someone runs up to the scene of an accident and yells "I'm a doctor! I'm a doctor!" Is your assumption this is an English professor? A chiropractor? A therapist? Of course not. You trust this person is a licensed physician capable of managing the situation adequately. It is, of course, appropriate for students to refer to their professors as "Doctor" in an academic context. The same can't be said for all doctorates in a clinical setting. You'll notice I'm not limiting my discussion to chiropractors here.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 4
Thanks for the lesson in how to be a prideful human being. You actually think taking four years of medical school and residency is sufficient enough to take care of someone's health. There's something called specialization if you haven't heard, so if one person was qualified enough to take care of your entire scope of health by themselves then they wouldn't need to refer a patient to another provider.
You're lack of knowledge about, well just about everything except therapy, but lets start with chiropractic education is quite apparent. Chiropractors take courses in biology, histology, microbiology, anatomy, neuroantomy, biochemistry, public health, pathology, and their clinical sciences over a four year curriculum. Hmmm, that sounds like a familiar list. This is basically the same list that podiatrists, dentists, optometrists, and other doctorate level graduates take. However, all of these professions focus on certain areas of your health, but I guess according to you these people should not be considered doctors either, since they won't be prescribing your viagra in an "emergency" situation
.If someone wants care for their musculoskeletal health, and you don't think that PTs or chiropractors have enough body of knowledge to care for this area, when I'm a "doctor" I'm not sending anybody your way. Maybe if you ever reach this ever so prestigious title of MD/DO
you will have grown up a little and realize that knocking others based on an obvious lack of understanding of anothers field of work is quite pathetic.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 4
Hope you're typing fast.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,082
- Reaction score
- 9
Thanks for the lesson in how to be a prideful human being. You actually think taking four years of medical school and residency is sufficient enough to take care of someone's health. There's something called specialization if you haven't heard, so if one person was qualified enough to take care of your entire scope of health by themselves then they wouldn't need to refer a patient to another provider.
You're lack of knowledge about, well just about everything except therapy, but lets start with chiropractic education is quite apparent. Chiropractors take courses in biology, histology, microbiology, anatomy, neuroantomy, biochemistry, public health, pathology, and their clinical sciences over a four year curriculum. Hmmm, that sounds like a familiar list. This is basically the same list that podiatrists, dentists, optometrists, and other doctorate level graduates take. However, all of these professions focus on certain areas of your health, but I guess according to you these people should not be considered doctors either, since they won't be prescribing your viagra in an "emergency" situation
If someone wants care for their musculoskeletal health, and you don't think that PTs or chiropractors have enough body of knowledge to care for this area, when I'm a "doctor" I'm not sending anybody your way. Maybe if you ever reach this ever so prestigious title of MD/DO
Like I said...agree to disagree. But you need to get your facts straight. Indeed, they enroll and take courses over the topics you mentioned. However pointing out the inadequacies of a profession that claims to treat everything from ADD to earaches and promotes childhood "adjustments" versus vaccination is worthy of the "pathetic" title. I refuse to get into a name calling battle with this. I would hope you have better things to do with your time.
Everyone has their role...PT, MD, chiro, shamen, etc.... I am very skilled in orthopedic physical therapy. If you send me a pediatric patient with a traumatic brain injury, you will not get the same standard of care. This is the difference between many chiropractors and other providers. We know our limits...Not only do many chiros not know their limits, they believe they have NO limits as to what they can treat. You and others have this disdain for those of us who question the scope of chiropractic in the name of being "open-minded". That's fine, but understand that your open-mindedness is faith in a profession that is based largely on a mythological entity (the subluxation). I choose to be open-minded to practices that have at least some basis in reality.
You are choosing to make this a personal issue which is not productive or necessary. If you have something substantive to say, I will gladly continue. Otherwise, we are done here.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 4
No there's nothing personal, condescending, or antagonistic about your comments and I won't bother pointing out your other crap. Don't try and come off as some sort of level headed saint in this issue. It's your generalizations about an entire group that are so imflammatory. Also, you're reading into this too much. This isn't an issue of open mindedness, it's an issue of general respect, which you obviously can't give to people who put in their dues, work hard, and earn a living. It's your attitude, "I'm never gonna call chiropractors Dr. until the day I die" that is so annoying. You keep swaying from your arguments about who should be called a doctor and who shouldn't, and start heading to everyone has their place.
As far as ending the debate, I never wished to interact with you in the first place. I think I made that pretty clear after my last exchange with you. You're the one who started addressing me, remember over a comment to clarify the titles. As for having better things to do, why aren't you working instead of reading an internet forum during the middle of the day. I am waiting to begin classes in a week, so have a nice day and keep up the good work.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,082
- Reaction score
- 9
I took the day off and this is what I'm doing...I need a life.
I think if you'll review this thread, you will see that I called for a more civil approach to the discussion when things were turning nasty. Just because I don't refer to chiros as doctors, doesn't mean I don't think they fit in within the health care system. I don't call PT's doctors and feel pretty strongly about the jobs we do. Again, I think everyone has their place and this has been my stance since the first time I posted on this topic. My point was that folks should respect their scopes of practice and this is where you and I likely differ. I think chiropractors should limit their practice to manual therapy of mechanical disorders of the spine, not things like ADD. Just like I wouldn't want an orthopedist performing neurosurgery.
As with many things, there are some very good points to be made on both sides of the issue. I think (as I said very clearly earlier in this thread) that chiropractic has an opportunity to pull out of it's nosedive of adhering to the subluxation theory.
This is not meant to piss you off, but I have not intentionally tried to annoy you either now or in the past. If it has come of this way, I sincerely apologize.
I think if you'll review this thread, you will see that I called for a more civil approach to the discussion when things were turning nasty. Just because I don't refer to chiros as doctors, doesn't mean I don't think they fit in within the health care system. I don't call PT's doctors and feel pretty strongly about the jobs we do. Again, I think everyone has their place and this has been my stance since the first time I posted on this topic. My point was that folks should respect their scopes of practice and this is where you and I likely differ. I think chiropractors should limit their practice to manual therapy of mechanical disorders of the spine, not things like ADD. Just like I wouldn't want an orthopedist performing neurosurgery.
As with many things, there are some very good points to be made on both sides of the issue. I think (as I said very clearly earlier in this thread) that chiropractic has an opportunity to pull out of it's nosedive of adhering to the subluxation theory.
This is not meant to piss you off, but I have not intentionally tried to annoy you either now or in the past. If it has come of this way, I sincerely apologize.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 4
No this is not where we differ. I also think chiropractors should focus on what they've been trained in or have evidence to support, just like all medical professionals. Where we differ is that because some chiropractors choose to make claims outside of mainstream public opinion of scope of practice, I still recognize them as "doctors" who have gone through an accredited board to obtain their license and you do not.
As for your apology, I accept. I too am sorry for getting too heated and trying to dig in. Much success in your future and getting into a medical school.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2007
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 0
Listen PT2MD, we are all glad you are qualified to get into MD school but understand that MD degrees dont automatically gain you full respect. You still have to earn it! I dont know what you are thinking (and I am sure you think you know it all), but MDs are not the only medical professionals with doctoral degrees. Now I dont want you to think that I am supporting any DDS, DVM, DPM, DPT, OTD, OD, DC who comes into a hospital and introduces them selves as Dr. X only. I understand that most folks when they hear the term Dr. especially in the hospital (or other medical settings) they think of physician. That is understood. I understand that; however that does not mean I as a DPT cannot say, hi I am Dr. X, Physical Therapy Doctor
.not medical doctor. I even have enough respect for physicians that I feel that they do not have to state physician, medical doctor, primary care physician, when introducing themselves to patients; if for no other reason other than simply the length of time they have been around. Yes, what you say is true, that is, if someone like a DPT wants simply to be called doctor in the hospital or other medical settings, that is bogus and should not be allowed. I agree, because they are making the claim (intentionally or un-intentionally) that they are physicians to patients. Where I disagree with you is that you say that the term doctor cant be used at all by other medical professionals aside from physicians, and I say they can if they are described as to what type of doctor they are. If your argument is valid, then we better let the moderators of SDN know now that the only doctors on this website are MDs and the rest of us should just go somewhere else. I think most people would agree that the term doctor is more generic, and needs to be described more specifically as to what doctoral degree of knowledge is represented.
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
- Messages
- 170
- Reaction score
- 8
Listen PT2MD, we are all glad you are qualified to get into MD school but understand that MD degrees don't automatically gain you full respect. You still have to earn it! I don't know what you are thinking (and I am sure you think you know it all), but MDs are not the only medical professionals with doctoral degrees. Now I don't want you to think that I am supporting any DDS, DVM, DPM, DPT, OTD, OD, DC who comes into a hospital and introduces them selves as Dr. X only. I understand that most folks when they hear the term "Dr." especially in the hospital (or other medical settings) they think of physician. That is understood. I understand that; however that does not mean I as a DPT cannot say, "hi I am Dr. X, Physical Therapy Doctor….not medical doctor. I even have enough respect for physicians that I feel that they do not have to state physician, medical doctor, primary care physician, when introducing themselves to patients; if for no other reason other than simply the length of time they have been around. Yes, what you say is true, that is, if someone like a DPT wants simply to be called "doctor" in the hospital or other medical settings, that is bogus and should not be allowed. I agree, because they are making the claim (intentionally or un-intentionally) that they are physicians to patients. Where I disagree with you is that you say that the term "doctor" can't be used at all by other medical professionals aside from physicians, and I say they can if they are described as to what type of doctor they are. If your argument is valid, then we better let the moderators of SDN know now that the only doctors on this website are MDs and the rest of us should just go somewhere else. I think most people would agree that the term "doctor" is more generic, and needs to be described more specifically as to what doctoral degree of knowledge is represented.
Dam britton. You went from writing that a blindman can read to writing in font 2.. I cant read that even with a magnifying glass. Time to get out my spectacles.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2006
- Messages
- 1,082
- Reaction score
- 9
Britton. I have not been admitted to a medical schoo program yet. So I can only speak from my experiences as a physical therapist.
I got a headache trying to focus on what you wrote but I finally made it out. Joking aside, please use normal font. I'm not saying one can't or shouldn't refer to someone as "doctor", but I specifically said I would not address a chiropractor as doctor. Free country and all remember? I'm sorry if my opinion offends you, but there it is.
The best man at my wedding was a chiropractor. He and I go toe-to-toe on these issues and just ultimately have to respect each other's opinions and move on. They get heated sometimes but we can be adults about it and have a beer later on.
I think chiropractic has some much needed reforms to do before I can consider them doctors on the order of DO/MD, but of course they don't give two rats asses to please me. However, if you look at the grim statistics on how many chiropractors are leaving their profession after not making over $40K per year, defaulting on their student loans, suing their universities etc..you may come to the conclusion that the profession simply must recognize the urgent need for change in order to remain viable. I think this will be tough but it can do it.
I got a headache trying to focus on what you wrote but I finally made it out. Joking aside, please use normal font. I'm not saying one can't or shouldn't refer to someone as "doctor", but I specifically said I would not address a chiropractor as doctor. Free country and all remember? I'm sorry if my opinion offends you, but there it is.
The best man at my wedding was a chiropractor. He and I go toe-to-toe on these issues and just ultimately have to respect each other's opinions and move on. They get heated sometimes but we can be adults about it and have a beer later on.
I think chiropractic has some much needed reforms to do before I can consider them doctors on the order of DO/MD, but of course they don't give two rats asses to please me. However, if you look at the grim statistics on how many chiropractors are leaving their profession after not making over $40K per year, defaulting on their student loans, suing their universities etc..you may come to the conclusion that the profession simply must recognize the urgent need for change in order to remain viable. I think this will be tough but it can do it.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2007
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 0
Sorry for the small font last post. I made it 4 this time.
Indeed you are right about not supporting the DC degree with the title Dr.. I apologize for my hasty words. All in all I do agree with much of what you say about Chiropractic. The field has some serious issues and personally, I would be scared to enter the field unless I had a ton of money to back me up. As for calling them doctors only no I will always say Dr. X, chiropractor, or doctor of chiropractic. I just want you to know that I do not like to see the term doctor used to trick people, but I do think it can be used so long as it is explained. People like the term doctor because it is a title that says I have some of the highest degree of knowledge about a certain area. In many cases (and this is especially true for many professors) professionals are very passionate about their work and love to talk about what they do. In these situations people will wear the title doctor just to generate a discussion with someone about what they do. Many physicians would have everyone in the world believe that everyone idolizes them and wants to be called doctor to pick up chicks, by telling them they are plastic surgeons! I just love how they assume this! I dont want to bash people but what about all the bums sitting at home all day watching Dr. Phill and idolize him. They then decide to go to community college (sarcasm intended) and get a Ph.D. or PsyD. in psychology just so that people will think they are some type of Dr. Phill or someone similar. In this case it was never a medical doctor that they idolized, it was just a dumb talk show host! Physicians want to pass a bill that says no one is to be called doctor in the medical setting except them, stating that everyone is trying to fool patients into thinking that they are medical doctors. Give me a break! Suppose as a veterinarian I do not want anyone to confuse me with a physician because I feel superior to them!! Thats right, ask why? Well try applying to vet school sometime, then try to apply to medical school (both osteopathic and allopathic) and you will soon see who the better pre-med students are! Suppose I dont want to help people either because I love animals .so please dont confuse me with a physician as it would make me angry. Now this example does seem a bit exaggerated but in all reality it really is true that some medical (and non-medical) professionals want the doctor title but do not want people to think they are medical doctors. This is why I think it is fine to call DPTs Dr. X, physical therapy doctor, and not just Dr. X.
Indeed you are right about not supporting the DC degree with the title Dr.. I apologize for my hasty words. All in all I do agree with much of what you say about Chiropractic. The field has some serious issues and personally, I would be scared to enter the field unless I had a ton of money to back me up. As for calling them doctors only no I will always say Dr. X, chiropractor, or doctor of chiropractic. I just want you to know that I do not like to see the term doctor used to trick people, but I do think it can be used so long as it is explained. People like the term doctor because it is a title that says I have some of the highest degree of knowledge about a certain area. In many cases (and this is especially true for many professors) professionals are very passionate about their work and love to talk about what they do. In these situations people will wear the title doctor just to generate a discussion with someone about what they do. Many physicians would have everyone in the world believe that everyone idolizes them and wants to be called doctor to pick up chicks, by telling them they are plastic surgeons! I just love how they assume this! I dont want to bash people but what about all the bums sitting at home all day watching Dr. Phill and idolize him. They then decide to go to community college (sarcasm intended) and get a Ph.D. or PsyD. in psychology just so that people will think they are some type of Dr. Phill or someone similar. In this case it was never a medical doctor that they idolized, it was just a dumb talk show host! Physicians want to pass a bill that says no one is to be called doctor in the medical setting except them, stating that everyone is trying to fool patients into thinking that they are medical doctors. Give me a break! Suppose as a veterinarian I do not want anyone to confuse me with a physician because I feel superior to them!! Thats right, ask why? Well try applying to vet school sometime, then try to apply to medical school (both osteopathic and allopathic) and you will soon see who the better pre-med students are! Suppose I dont want to help people either because I love animals .so please dont confuse me with a physician as it would make me angry. Now this example does seem a bit exaggerated but in all reality it really is true that some medical (and non-medical) professionals want the doctor title but do not want people to think they are medical doctors. This is why I think it is fine to call DPTs Dr. X, physical therapy doctor, and not just Dr. X.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2003
- Messages
- 2,212
- Reaction score
- 30
The problem is that there is simply NO evidence to support chiropractic. Neither of two cochrane reviews support it, nor can the The National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (the Federal Government's lead agency for scientific research on complementary and alternative medicine) who state:
"Overall, the evidence was seen as weak and less than convincing for the effectiveness of chiropractic for back pain. Specifically, the 1996 systematic review reported that there were major quality problems in the studies analyzed; for example, statistics could not be effectively combined because of missing and poor-quality data. The review concludes that the data "did not provide convincing evidence for the effectiveness of chiropractic." The 2003 general review states that since the 1996 systematic review, emerging trial data "have not tended to be encouraging
. The effectiveness of chiropractic spinal manipulation for back pain is thus at best uncertain." The 2003 meta-analysis found spinal manipulation to be more effective than sham therapy but no more or no less effective than other treatments." from: http://nccam.nih.gov/health/chiropractic/#9a
Now, if The NCCAM remains unconvinced, and their entire existence is based on proving the effectiveness of alternative treatments, how can you support the shameless profiteering these con artists provide?
- H