The dilemma of my life :/

[Anonamoose]

The average 24-26 yrs old makes 40-50k/yr and work 40-50 hrs/wk. They are not enjoying life like most of us think. They are not spending 2 wks in Paris and Ibiza partying.

People in medicine/dentistry fail to realize that.

Thank you for saying this - these threads gets so down and out about having to work a normal work week that everyone else in our country is dealing with, all while making much less than any dentist. Working multiple minimum wage service jobs to get by is much harder than getting into dental school, graduating, working 4 days a week and paying off 250K of debt in 10 years, it just is.

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[pma96]

Inflation hurts everyone. We, dentists, are less affected by this because we make good money and our job is stable. It’s not easy to make money these days. Aren’t you glad that you’re a dentist?

Yeah.. I come from a low income household. My parents combined income is less than 100k. Still, we have a house, nice things, a decent life. We are immigrants, so we appreciate every opportunity given to us and just being able to work to have a decent life and our basic needs covered. I think it’s important to appreciate how privileged we as dentists are to be able make really good money and have a normal schedule. Even if times are difficult, we have it way better than most people out there.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Inflation hurts everyone. We, dentists, are less affected by this because we make good money and our job is stable. It’s not easy to make money these days. Aren’t you glad that you’re a dentist?

I don't get the point of this. I mean I get it. We will always have a job in healthcare, but due to inflation our income has grown exponentially lower year over year unless you are OON/FFS. I don't get how you say "we dentists are less affected by inflation." We are actually the WORST off with inflation. We get hit on the bottom line(wages/supply costs) and top line (fees.) In some areas- hygiene is being treated as a literal loss leader- hygienists make more then the practice brings in from a cleaning....and it's only getting worse. To be honest, I even wonder why would anyone even go to dental school anymore:

Heres an interesting snapshot:
Hygienist school: 2 years out of high school 40k debt: starting wage is 60-75 in my area- in downtown highly desirable area- I've seen 80-85$. 100k income out the gate at 20 years old with minimal debt.

But hey at least I have a job! I guess in a "recessionary" environment (if we have one) a job is better then no job even if you are making less year over year over year.

 

[charlestweed]

I don't get the point of this. I mean I get it. We will always have a job in healthcare, but due to inflation our income has grown exponentially lower year over year unless you are OON/FFS. I don't get how you say "we dentists are less affected by inflation." We are actually the WORST off with inflation. We get hit on the bottom line(wages/supply costs) and top line (fees.) In some areas- hygiene is being treated as a literal loss leader- hygienists make more then the practice brings in from a cleaning....and it's only getting worse. To be honest, I even wonder why would anyone even go to dental school anymore:

But hey at least I have a job! I guess in a "recessionary" environment (if we have one) a job is better then no job even if you are making less year over year over year.

The drop in the purchasing power hurts everyone. 50% of millennials are moving back to live with their parents after college because they can’t afford to pay rents (50% Of Millennials Are Moving Back Home With Their Parents After College). In the past, my tenants used to call me a lot for repairs. Now, they rarely call me because they are afraid that I will raise their rents. At least we, dentists, make good enough income and we can pay for our own rent (or home mortgage). We can help our parents instead of relying on them for financial support. We can still afford to go eat out, travel, and do other fun things that many others cannot due to inflation. It’s a big deal for many, when the natural gas price here in SoCal tripled last month. For us, dentists, we can significantly increase our salary to offset this inflation by adding another work day (from 4 days/wk to 5 days/wk) but for other low income earners, they have to add another full time job…. and still can’t earn what we earn in a day.

Heres an interesting snapshot:
Hygienist school: 2 years out of high school 40k debt: starting wage is 60-75 in my area- in downtown highly desirable area- I've seen 80-85$. 100k income out the gate at 20 years old with minimal debt.

Dental hygiene is a good career if you don’t mind working under a dentist boss, setting up/cleaning your own chair, and facing the high risk of having hand/wrist and back injuries. My sister-in-law is a hygienist and she can afford to live in the same neighborhood that we are in. But she has to walk around with a wrist brace on her hand.

 

[Thehighwind87]

I see what you are saying about how we can work another day or work 6 days a week or add extra.

I mean I get what you are saying in that regards, BUT

If you worked 4 days a week, and never changed anything...you would technically LOSE year over year over year to inflation because our costs are increasing and reimbursement is stagnant. You counter that- one can work more to offset this loss. I guess this makes sense- but I guess from my point of view- you are still losing year over year over year.

So from my point of view, losing year over year sucks. From your point of view: just get on the dental treadmill and work an extra day to offset inflation....

I respect your point of view, but I'm def out when I have enough saved up. I'm not going on the dental treadmill to work harder for less.

 

[charlestweed]

I see what you are saying about how we can work another day or work 6 days a week or add extra.

I mean I get what you are saying in that regards, BUT

If you worked 4 days a week, and never changed anything...you would technically LOSE year over year over year to inflation because our costs are increasing and reimbursement is stagnant. You counter that- one can work more to offset this loss. I guess this makes sense- but I guess from my point of view- you are still losing year over year over year.

So from my point of view, losing year over year sucks. From your point of view: just get on the dental treadmill and work an extra day to offset inflation....

I respect your point of view, but I'm def out when I have enough saved up. I'm not going on the dental treadmill to work harder for less.

Yes, inflation hurts everyone…..dentists, doctors, engineers, lawyers etc are not immune from this. And yes, we (and everyone else) either have to work harder to increase our salaries so we can retire at the planned age (50, 55 or whatever) OR we have to work longer (if we don’t want to work harder now) to save for our retirements.

This recession/inflation might be a big shock to you because you are still young. It’s like having a first car wreck for a young teenage driver. I am old enough to have been through a few cycles of recessions. I guess when the 2 airplanes hit the NY Twin Towers in 2001, that caused a brief recession, you were still in elementary school… and when the housing market crashed in 2008, you were probably still in dental school. I am sure that when you reach my age (15-20 yrs from now), you will be less surprised even when everything goes up 2x as much 20 years from now. That’s why I still work at 51 (even though I am debt-free) to make sure I save enough for retirement. So even when things cost 2x as much in the future, I will still be ok.

But hey, look on the bright side, when you pay off the home loan, you don't have to worry about the rising home prices anymore. You already have a house to live and not have to pay rents. The property tax, property insurance, and utitlity bills only increase a little bit every year. At least that part is "almost" fixed for us, homeowners. Unlike the people who rent houses/apartments, we don't have to worry about the rent increase, getting evicted etc.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Yeah.. I come from a low income household. My parents combined income is less than 100k. Still, we have a house, nice things, a decent life. We are immigrants, so we appreciate every opportunity given to us and just being able to work to have a decent life and our basic needs covered. I think it’s important to appreciate how privileged we as dentists are to be able make really good money and have a normal schedule. Even if times are difficult, we have it way better than most people out there.

My wife and I were immigrants from Asia. My wife, her brother, and her parents lived on $60 a month in the 1970's. We still use coupons and shop clearance sales. Our neighbors think we're the "quiet millionaires" because we have the best house but drive only average (tasteful) cars. They are always asking us who we use for everything (remodeling, various services, etc.) because they know we get the best value and we don't get scammed (I just jinxed myself).

 

[Thehighwind87]

Yes, inflation hurts everyone…..dentists, doctors, engineers, lawyers etc are not immune from this. And yes, we (and everyone else) either have to work harder to increase our salaries so we can retire at the planned age (50, 55 or whatever) OR we have to work longer (if we don’t want to work harder now) to save for our retirements.

This recession/inflation might be a big shock to you because you are still young. It’s like having a first car wreck for a young teenage driver. I am old enough to have been through a few cycles of recessions. I guess when the 2 airplanes hit the NY Twin Towers in 2001, that caused a brief recession, you were still in elementary school… and when the housing market crashed in 2008, you were probably still in dental school. I am sure that when you reach my age (15-20 yrs from now), you will be less surprised even when everything goes up 2x as much 20 years from now. That’s why I still work at 51 (even though I am debt-free) to make sure I save enough for retirement. So even when things cost 2x as much in the future, I will still be ok.

But hey, look on the bright side, when you pay off the home loan, you don't have to worry about the rising home prices anymore. You already have a house to live and not have to pay rents. The property tax, property insurance, and utitlity bills only increase a little bit every year. At least that part is "almost" fixed for us, homeowners. Unlike the people who rent houses/apartments, we don't have to worry about the rent increase, getting evicted etc.

To be honest, a recession would cool off the insane housing market and job market. Plus those with money can always invest into the market when assets are cheap. At the end of the day, if you can buy in at generational lows 00-01/08-09 will setup themselves for early retirement.

We are technically setuping ourselves up for a big big big recession...but the fed and policy makers are trying their best to not let that happen...which ironically is making the situation worse as it continues to inflate the bubble and continues pumping asset prices to the moon. The longer they pump the market on zombie companies and bad debt, the more gamestop meme mania, more housing speculation, and more inflation we will have.

In 3 years my house went from 700k to 1.5 million which is just stupid. Of course it's cooled down a lil bit but people are still biting at 1 million $ which is insanity.

It's even crazier to see on redfin people trying to sell their house they bought for 200-300k back in 08/09 for 1 million dollars.

So while it maybe a shock to me, I am ready. No debt, and cash on the side.

 

[charlestweed]

My wife and I were immigrants from Asia. My wife, her brother, and her parents lived on $60 a month in the 1970's. We still use coupons and shop clearance sales. Our neighbors think we're the "quiet millionaires" because we have the best house but drive only average (tasteful) cars. They are always asking us who we use for everything (remodeling, various services, etc.) because they know we get the best value and we don't get scammed (I just jinxed myself).

Same here. I hired a no name Vietnamese contractor to build my office because I knew he was much cheaper than if I hired someone from a big company like Henry Schein. He did my sister’s office a year before and I liked his work. His fee of $65/square foot included everything: design drawing, city permit, cabinets, sinks, lights, flooring etc. My colleagues spent 2x as much and it was just for the construction part. They had to pay for cabinets and sinks separately. And they also had to hire the architech, interior designer, IT guys etc for other stuff. My colleagues were very picky; they wanted to hire someone who had the experience in building the ortho offices. For me, all I neede is a couple of functional dental chairs + a good x ray unit and I am ready to treat patients. I was not picky because I had gotten used to working in a non-ideal office environment at the corp office before.

In 2018, when I converted a medical office to an ortho office, I didn’t use the same contractor. I hired one of his former employees to save even more money. I only spent $55k for the office remodeling.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Same here. I hired a no name Vietnamese contractor to build my office because I knew he was much cheaper than if I hired someone from a big company like Henry Schein. He did my sister’s office a year before and I liked his work. His fee of $65/square foot included everything: design drawing, city permit, cabinets, sinks, lights, flooring etc. My colleagues spent 2x as much and it was just for the construction part. They had to pay for cabinets and sinks separately. And they also had to hire the architech, interior designer, IT guys etc for other stuff. My colleagues were very picky; they wanted to hire someone who had the experience in building the ortho offices. For me, all I neede is a couple of functional dental chairs + a good x ray unit and I am ready to treat patients. I was not picky because I had gotten used to working in a non-ideal office environment at the corp office before.

In 2018, when I converted a medical office to an ortho office, I didn’t use the same contractor. I hired one of his former employees to save even more money. I only spent $55k for the office remodeling.

One of my neighbors remodeled his bathroom for $32,000 ish. My other neighbor saw it and said the work was a rip off...nothing special. I had my bathroom done for $6,800 and had the most durable materials put in. I even gave my Romanian contractor more money (Wife was very mad that I did that) because he under-quoted me and I wanted to use him in the future. He knew I know value in the work and materials. I learned a lot from my father what not to do. He wanted the cheapest builder and the cheapest materials (like fitting his Mercedes with wrong sized Kmart tires). Cheapest builder went bankrupt in the middle of building our house, cheapest materials rotted out, and his Mercedes looked and drove like crap.

My colleague needed an O2 sensor for her 2008 Honda Accord. The dealer quoted her $550. My mechanic friend fixed it for $20 (it took him 10 min as he charges $40/hr) plus $41 for the part. He buys cheap cars on auction and flips them. He's about my age 51 and long retired taking trips to Hawaii 4 times a year.

 

[Splenda88]

I see what you are saying about how we can work another day or work 6 days a week or add extra.

I mean I get what you are saying in that regards, BUT

If you worked 4 days a week, and never changed anything...you would technically LOSE year over year over year to inflation because our costs are increasing and reimbursement is stagnant. You counter that- one can work more to offset this loss. I guess this makes sense- but I guess from my point of view- you are still losing year over year over year.

So from my point of view, losing year over year sucks. From your point of view: just get on the dental treadmill and work an extra day to offset inflation....

I respect your point of view, but I'm def out when I have enough saved up. I'm not going on the dental treadmill to work harder for less.

It's not only working an extra day.

Here an example:

The median household income right now is ~70k/yr (probably ~55k/yr after deductions). The median income for dentist is probably 225k/yr (~150k/yr after deductions)

Let's say an average dentist and an average household: Both have family of 4 and both used to spend 1k/month on food, but due inflation they now spend 2k/month.

Food budget went from 1.8% to 3.6% (a jump of 1.8%) for the first family. For the dentist, it went from 0.67% to 1.3% (a jump of 0.67%)

This is the reason inflation do not affect that much people with a lot money because it eats a very small percentage of their income.

 

[charlestweed]

To be honest, a recession would cool off the insane housing market and job market. Plus those with money can always invest into the market when assets are cheap. At the end of the day, if you can buy in at generational lows 00-01/08-09 will setup themselves for early retirement.

Yes, if you have money (and in order to have money, you have to work hard) to invest during the recession when everything is cheaper, you will be in much better financial shape later on. I am glad that I worked hard during those housing bubble years and bought rental properties at low cost. My mistake was I didn’t start investing until 2008 because I wanted many other things like nice cars, expensive furniture, and other expensive tech stuff. The 2008 recession helped me realize that I couldn’t just spend money like the people in congress. My younger sister started to invest in real estates in the early 2000s when she was still a broke dentist. And she is now ahead of me financially.

We are technically setuping ourselves up for a big big big recession...but the fed and policy makers are trying their best to not let that happen...which ironically is making the situation worse as it continues to inflate the bubble and continues pumping asset prices to the moon. The longer they pump the market on zombie companies and bad debt, the more gamestop meme mania, more housing speculation, and more inflation we will have.

That’s why I don’t trust the government. The more things they try to fix, the worse consequences we, the people, have to endure. That’s why I do my own things (ie continue to work and to save) to help save my and my kids’ future.

In 3 years my house went from 700k to 1.5 million which is just stupid. Of course it's cooled down a lil bit but people are still biting at 1 million $ which is insanity.

It's even crazier to see on redfin people trying to sell their house they bought for 200-300k back in 08/09 for 1 million dollars.

The thing is you can’t sell your house (even though it appreciates a lot in value) and cash out the profit because you can’t buy another house that costs less to replace it….unless you are ok with downgrading to tiny $700k condo. You still need a "doctor's" house to live in.

So while it maybe a shock to me, I am ready. No debt, and cash on the side.

I wish I can be as confident as you are. I paid off all my debts 2 years ago. But I still need save a lot more. Retiring with just one paid off house + a car is not enough. Neither of us can predict nor can control what will happen in the future. What is within our control now is that we are still capable of working and earning an income. It’s better to have extra than not having enough in the future because we will be too old to work in the future.

 

[Splenda88]

The thing is you can’t sell your house (even though it appreciates a lot in value) and cash out the profit because you can’t buy another house that costs less to replace it….unless you are ok with downgrading to tiny $700k condo. You still need a "doctor's" house to live in.

I never understand the obsession with big house ( >2500 sqft) for the typical family (family of 4). Although my spouse thinks differently. Lol

Our home (family of 4) is ~2000 sqft under air plus 2-car garage and i think it's big enough for us. What do people use to fill up a house 3000+ sqft?

 

[Cold Front]

I never understand the obsession with big house ( >2500 sqft) for the typical family (family of 4). Although my spouse thinks differently. Lol

Our home (family of 4) is ~2000 sqft under air plus 2-car garage and i think it's big enough for us. What do people use to fill up a house 3000+ sqft?

It’s America. It all started at suburbs, where everyone needed big homes with big backyards for decades. I would be surprised if your 2,000 sft home is in a suburb and has no basement. Although developers have been building multi family townhomes in the suburbs over the past few years due to cost.

 

[Splenda88]

It’s America. It all started at suburbs, where everyone needed big homes with big backyards for decades. I would be surprised if your 2,000 sft home is in a suburb and has no basement. Although developers have been building multi family townhomes in the suburbs over the past few years due to cost.

Correct...

 

[Cold Front]

One of my neighbors remodeled his bathroom for $32,000 ish. My other neighbor saw it and said the work was a rip off...nothing special. I had my bathroom done for $6,800 and had the most durable materials put in. I even gave my Romanian contractor more money (Wife was very mad that I did that) because he under-quoted me and I wanted to use him in the future. He knew I know value in the work and materials. I learned a lot from my father what not to do. He wanted the cheapest builder and the cheapest materials (like fitting his Mercedes with wrong sized Kmart tires). Cheapest builder went bankrupt in the middle of building our house, cheapest materials rotted out, and his Mercedes looked and drove like crap.

My colleague needed an O2 sensor for her 2008 Honda Accord. The dealer quoted her $550. My mechanic friend fixed it for $20 (it took him 10 min as he charges $40/hr) plus $41 for the part. He buys cheap cars on auction and flips them. He's about my age 51 and long retired taking trips to Hawaii 4 times a year.

This is all good. But I see 2 issues here.

1. You pay attention to quality work and reward it appropriately. As far as your neighbor’s bigger remodeling, it will not appreciate/add value to their home. That’s money they spent to make themselves feel good about living in their home, that’s all that matters - and that’s ok. People buy expensive and odd stuff, and we wonder “what were they thinking?”… but that’s people for you. But that home will not go up in value. Next owner won’t care about the 40k bathroom improvement.

2. The reason that dealerships charge more, because there are few people like your colleague out there doing the same work for less. Americans, specially younger generation, don’t want to use their hands, or go to their neighbor or go to college to learn something that involves using their hands. We dentists have no choice, but the vast of majority of other professions don’t to fix things. So it will cost more to have someone else do it, and that will only get worse for society going forward.

 

[Cold Front]

To be honest, a recession would cool off the insane housing market and job market. Plus those with money can always invest into the market when assets are cheap. At the end of the day, if you can buy in at generational lows 00-01/08-09 will setup themselves for early retirement.

We are technically setuping ourselves up for a big big big recession...but the fed and policy makers are trying their best to not let that happen...which ironically is making the situation worse as it continues to inflate the bubble and continues pumping asset prices to the moon. The longer they pump the market on zombie companies and bad debt, the more gamestop meme mania, more housing speculation, and more inflation we will have.

In 3 years my house went from 700k to 1.5 million which is just stupid. Of course it's cooled down a lil bit but people are still biting at 1 million $ which is insanity.

It's even crazier to see on redfin people trying to sell their house they bought for 200-300k back in 08/09 for 1 million dollars.

So while it maybe a shock to me, I am ready. No debt, and cash on the side.

There is a big reset (or whatever it will be called) coming. We printed 40% of our economy during Covid. Our nation’s debt to GDP is above 100%. Society is aging fast and workforce is shrinking. The median income this year will be about 100k due to high inflation, and is expected to reach 150k at the end of this decade. Many dentists will not be able to afford DAs and Hygienists due to inflated pay. There was a hygienist advertising on Facebook for $113/hr… that’s about 235k a year full time… and she probably found an employer already. All these events rarely happened close to each other in our country’s history. It’s all unsustainable. It will take infinity stones plus a snap of fingers for all the mania to end.

 

[Thehighwind87]

There is a big reset (or whatever it will be called) coming. We printed 40% of our economy during Covid. Our nation’s debt to GDP is above 100%. Society is aging fast and workforce is shrinking. The median income this year will be about 100k due to high inflation, and is expected to reach 150k at the end of this decade. Many dentists will not be able to afford DAs and Hygienists due to inflated pay. There was a hygienist advertising on Facebook for $113/hr… that’s about 235k a year full time… and she probably found an employer already. All these events rarely happened close to each other in our country’s history. It’s all unsustainable. It will take infinity stones plus a snap of fingers for all the mania to end.

You are right about the mania.

I truely believe the only way out of this inflation stickiness is with a recession and fed fund rates above inflation.

The longer they don’t raise rates above inflation, the longer inflation becomes sticky entrenched and eventually will need a volker moment to beat back inflation.

They are just taking their time hoping that inflation is proved “transitory” which it isn’t….

And yes I’ve seen highest 90 in my downtown where no one wants to work.

The overall market is screwed. I do think once the recession finally comes or the great reset that everyone will roll back the wage gains.

But that’s the least of the concern. The bubble this time is so big that it makes dotcom and 08 look like blips.

 

[charlestweed]

I never understand the obsession with big house ( >2500 sqft) for the typical family (family of 4). Although my spouse thinks differently. Lol

Our home (family of 4) is ~2000 sqft under air plus 2-car garage and i think it's big enough for us. What do people use to fill up a house 3000+ sqft?

The thing is if you want to live in an area, where there a lot of your neighbors, who are more like you….talk like you (young working professionals, doctors, dentist, lawyers etc),you have to buy houses that are at least 3000sf. These people usually have a smaller sized family (wife, husband , 2-3 young kids). They don’t have a lot of cars and they don’t park them everywhere on the street. When every house has a 3 car garage and large driveway, you don’t see a lot of cars parked on the street either. I prefer to go home with a nice clean street in a nice neighborhood like this.

People who can only afford 2000sf (or less) tend to be lower income earners and there are usually more people living in the same house (to help pay the mortgages/rents). Some of these smaller houses may not have the owners living in them….some are occupied by renters. This is just my general observation. There are, of course, plenty of nice 2000sf houses that are in very nice and safe neighborhood. But I just don’t like an area that has a lot of cars parking on the street.

My wife and I love to invite friends over for dinner. To us, it’s a lot more fun to have friends over to chit chat than traveling…I don’t like long flight trips and most of the places that we visited are not as nice as our home town. That’s another reason for having a nice size house with large kitchen and backyard. Last year, we sold our 5400sf house. We wanted to downgrade to a smaller one story house (prepare for our retirement). But most of the 1 story house was built in the 70s…old, low tech, and ugly….. and the most of neighbors are much older than us…in their 70s. So we ended up buying another 2 story house but only has 3900sf of living spae. I guess when we become too old and can no longer move around, we will move into a smaller 1 story house and let one of the kids have our big house.

My son doesn’t use his car because he lives in college dorm. I am able to squeeze his car into my garage. Now my house has a nice unobstructed driveway again.

 

[Thehighwind87]

There is a big reset (or whatever it will be called) coming. We printed 40% of our economy during Covid. Our nation’s debt to GDP is above 100%. Society is aging fast and workforce is shrinking. The median income this year will be about 100k due to high inflation, and is expected to reach 150k at the end of this decade. Many dentists will not be able to afford DAs and Hygienists due to inflated pay. There was a hygienist advertising on Facebook for $113/hr… that’s about 235k a year full time… and she probably found an employer already. All these events rarely happened close to each other in our country’s history. It’s all unsustainable. It will take infinity stones plus a snap of fingers for all the mania to end.

100-200k undergrad 300-500k+ graduate 500k to 1 mil practice loan…

Or

2 year associates 40k debt

Like it’s no brainer to go to hygiene.

Dentistry is becoming like medicine where medical doctors go through such a long arduous process… while you can just go be a travel nurse or pa and literally make more money then a doc without the need to go through a decade of schooling and low paying residency.

 

[charlestweed]

There is a big reset (or whatever it will be called) coming. We printed 40% of our economy during Covid. Our nation’s debt to GDP is above 100%. Society is aging fast and workforce is shrinking. The median income this year will be about 100k due to high inflation, and is expected to reach 150k at the end of this decade. Many dentists will not be able to afford DAs and Hygienists due to inflated pay. There was a hygienist advertising on Facebook for $113/hr… that’s about 235k a year full time… and she probably found an employer already. All these events rarely happened close to each other in our country’s history. It’s all unsustainable. It will take infinity stones plus a snap of fingers for all the mania to end.

In order for the hygienist to get paid $235k/year, she needs to produce for the owner dentist at least 2x that amount. That’s still a good passive income for the owner dentist. The owner is not stupid to pay a hygienist and takes a loss. It’s capitalism.

 

[Splenda88]

The thing is if you want to live in an area, where there a lot of your neighbors, who are more like you….talk like you (young working professionals, doctors, dentist, lawyers etc),you have to buy houses that are at least 3000sf. These people usually have a smaller sized family (wife, husband , 2-3 young kids). They don’t have a lot of cars and they don’t park them everywhere on the street. When every house has a 3 car garage and large driveway, you don’t see a lot of cars parked on the street either. I prefer to go home with a nice clean street in a nice neighborhood like this.

People who can only afford 2000sf (or less) tend to be lower income earners and there are usually more people living in the same house (to help pay the mortgages/rents). Some of these smaller houses may not have the owners living in them….some are occupied by renters. This is just my general observation. There are, of course, plenty of nice 2000sf houses that are in very nice and safe neighborhood. But I just don’t like an area that has a lot of cars parking on the street.

My wife and I love to invite friends over for dinner. To us, it’s a lot more fun to have friends over to chit chat than traveling…I don’t like long flight trips and most of the places that we visited are not as nice as our home town. That’s another reason for having a nice size house with large kitchen and backyard. Last year, we sold our 5400sf house. We wanted to downgrade to a smaller one story house (prepare for our retirement). But most of the 1 story house was built in the 70s…old, low tech, and ugly….. and the most of neighbors are much older than us…in their 70s. So we ended up buying another 2 story house but only has 3900sf of living spae. I guess when we become too old and can no longer move around, we will move into a smaller 1 story house and let one of the kids have our big house.

My son doesn’t use his car because he lives in college dorm. I am able to squeeze his car into my garage. Now my house has a nice unobstructed driveway again.
View attachment 366585

That is a huge house for a family of 4. Very nice as well.

A house like that will cost 1.2--1.5 mil in south FL where I plan to rmove permanently in 2025. No way I would spend that kind of money even if my net worth were 3 mil. Max I will spend in a house in 700k.

 

[charlestweed]

That is a huge house for a family of 4. Very nice as well.

A house like that will cost 1.2--1.5 mil in south FL where I plan to rmove permanently in 2025. No way I would spend that kind of money even if my net worth were 3 mil. Max I will spend in a house in 700k.

It’s good that you feel this way. You should buy what you think is best for you and your family. You don’t have to impress anybody. That’s how the millionaires build wealth and save money.

 

[AONLINE]

In some areas- hygiene is being treated as a literal loss leader- hygienists make more then the practice brings in from a cleaning....and it's only getting worse. To be honest, I even wonder why would anyone even go to dental school anymore:

Heres an interesting snapshot:
Hygienist school: 2 years out of high school 40k debt: starting wage is 60-75 in my area- in downtown highly desirable area- I've seen 80-85$. 100k income out the gate at 20 years old with minimal debt.

Lol if this is actually true "hygienists make more then the practice brings in from a cleaning," I don't believe any private practice or DSO is stupid enough to operate like that. The hygienists will be let go immediately and the cleaning patients would be seen by the dentists.

 

[AONLINE]

That is a huge house for a family of 4. Very nice as well.

A house like that will cost 1.2--1.5 mil in south FL where I plan to rmove permanently in 2025. No way I would spend that kind of money even if my net worth were 3 mil. Max I will spend in a house in 700k.

I am thinking of moving to south FL as well in 2024! Are decent 700k houses still a thing in FL?

 

[axiumgod]

100-200k undergrad 300-500k+ graduate 500k to 1 mil practice loan…

Or

2 year associates 40k debt

Like it’s no brainer to go to hygiene.

Dentistry is becoming like medicine where medical doctors go through such a long arduous process… while you can just go be a travel nurse or pa and literally make more money then a doc without the need to go through a decade of schooling and low paying residency.

Yeah hygiene is less debt and an okay income… but at the end of the day you would be a hygienist lol. Same thing comparing doctors and nurses. No one I know was between hygiene/dentist or nurse/doctor.

They’re completely different jobs, and people choose jobs based off more than numbers on paper. Do you want to spend the next 40 years scaling teeth or wiping butts, just because the debt to income ratio is more favorable? Hard pass from me.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Lol if this is actually true "hygienists make more then the practice brings in from a cleaning," I don't believe any private practice or DSO is stupid enough to operate like that. The hygienists will be let go immediately and the cleaning patients would be seen by the dentists.

Uhh, you haven't worked in enough clinics. Trust me its a loss leader in some practices.

Yeah hygiene is less debt and an okay income… but at the end of the day you would be a hygienist lol. Same thing comparing doctors and nurses. No one I know was between hygiene/dentist or nurse/doctor.

They’re completely different jobs, and people choose jobs based off more than numbers on paper. Do you want to spend the next 40 years scaling teeth or wiping butts, just because the debt to income ratio is more favorable? Hard pass from me.

Debt income ratio hard pass? Ok, that's totally fine. I mean you know what you are getting yourself into. If theres a 1 million dollar price tag for a DDS/DMD/MD degree then as along you are fine with it, then more power to you. I just know that 20 years old making 100k with minimal debt is a recipe for FIRE. Financial independence, retire early. Lots of debt income ratio is a recipe for work for the banks and retire at 50+ or whenever that happens.

I get it though, some people will regardless choose the doctor life because who wants to wipe butts or scale teeth for 40 years- I know I wouldn't. But I would be tempted with the FIRE lifestyle to get it over with in a decade and retire early. The longer I practice- the longer I realize- true FREEDOM and HAPPINESS comes from being able to be debt free and not work for the bank loans.

For some people the debt income ratio doesn't even matter. You could put a 2 mil price tag on it, for a 200k salary on it and you will have buyers lining up. One would think that dentistry today is reaching that limit- but it's not as you can see many people still lining up for the degree.

 

[axiumgod]

Uhh, you haven't worked in enough clinics. Trust me its a loss leader in some practices.

Debt income ratio hard pass? Ok, that's totally fine. I mean you know what you are getting yourself into. If theres a 1 million dollar price tag for a DDS/DMD/MD degree then as along you are fine with it, then more power to you. I just know that 20 years old making 100k with minimal debt is a recipe for FIRE. Financial independence, retire early. Lots of debt income ratio is a recipe for work for the banks and retire at 50+ or whenever that happens.

I get it though, some people will regardless choose the doctor life because who wants to wipe butts or scale teeth for 40 years- I know I wouldn't. But I would be tempted with the FIRE lifestyle to get it over with in a decade and retire early.

I’m not advocating for taking a million debt or even half a mil. Just pointing out that for basically everyone, the decision isn’t black and white based on DTI.

If your ultimate goal is FIRE then I agree hygiene could be a good recipe. But again, I’d guess 99% of people aren’t doing FIRE.

 

[Thehighwind87]

I’m not advocating for taking a million debt or even half a mil. Just pointing out that for basically everyone, the decision isn’t black and white based on DTI.

If your ultimate goal is FIRE then I agree hygiene could be a good recipe. But again, I’d guess 99% of people aren’t doing FIRE.

Yep. I agree, but this is the same problem that you see in undergrad. People taking out big big big loans for degrees that just don't pay well. At a certain level, one has to look at the debt to income ratio and ask yourself is it worth it. A 300k undergrad degree for english major is well not the best use of money. But for some people its not as black and white.

Same with dentistry and medicine. I'm just arguing that at today's levels its not worth it unless you can find a school that is very low tuition.

 

[charlestweed]

Lol if this is actually true "hygienists make more then the practice brings in from a cleaning," I don't believe any private practice or DSO is stupid enough to operate like that. The hygienists will be let go immediately and the cleaning patients would be seen by the dentists.

Most of my dentist friends here in SoCal do their own cleanings. My wife’s GP boss, who has a very busy practice, only hires the hygienist 2 days a week....he and his associate GP (his niece) also do cleanings. In 20+ years of practicing dentistry, my sister has never hired a hygienist. That's how she was able to buy (and paid off) her own office building.

The owner needs to go back to school to take a business class, if he hires a hygienist who produces less than what he pays her. He should just close the practice if he can't make it profitable.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Uhh, you haven't worked in enough clinics. Trust me its a loss leader in some practices.

Debt income ratio hard pass? Ok, that's totally fine. I mean you know what you are getting yourself into. If theres a 1 million dollar price tag for a DDS/DMD/MD degree then as along you are fine with it, then more power to you. I just know that 20 years old making 100k with minimal debt is a recipe for FIRE. Financial independence, retire early. Lots of debt income ratio is a recipe for work for the banks and retire at 50+ or whenever that happens.

I get it though, some people will regardless choose the doctor life because who wants to wipe butts or scale teeth for 40 years- I know I wouldn't. But I would be tempted with the FIRE lifestyle to get it over with in a decade and retire early. The longer I practice- the longer I realize- true FREEDOM and HAPPINESS comes from being able to be debt free and not work for the bank loans.

For some people the debt income ratio doesn't even matter. You could put a 2 mil price tag on it, for a 200k salary on it and you will have buyers lining up. One would think that dentistry today is reaching that limit- but it's not as you can see many people still lining up for the degree.

Just my opinion and observations. I don't think a lot of people know what they're getting into. There is a nation wide student debt crisis. Back in the mid 2000s, a caller to a personal finance show had gone to a private grad school in Vermont and racked up about $250k to get a Masters in Library Science. I usually skip these shows but this caller caught my attention. After she graduated, her librarian job only paid $23k/yr. Another sad case involved a student going to a 4th tier Law School called Thomas Jefferson located in San Diego (not sure if they're still open). After graduating with about $250k debt, he couldn't find a lawyer job and can only work as a legal assistant for $14/hr.

My observations as a 25 yr dentist, many dentists with a lot of debt and pressures to produce tend to overtreat as in drilling and restoring unnecessarily to make their bottom line. A lot of DSO's mandate minimum production or they let you go. I feel sorry for patients who don't know and blindly trust their dentists. It is like a woman taking her European car to a repair shop and the service team see $$$.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Just my opinion and observations. I don't think a lot of people know what they're getting into. There is a nation wide student debt crisis. Back in the mid 2000s, a caller to a personal finance show had gone to a private grad school in Vermont and racked up about $250k to get a Masters in Library Science. I usually skip these shows but this caller caught my attention. After she graduated, her librarian job only paid $23k/yr. Another sad case involved a student going to a 4th tier Law School called Thomas Jefferson located in San Diego (not sure if they're still open). After graduating with about $250k debt, he couldn't find a lawyer job and can only work as a legal assistant for $14/hr.

My observations as a 25 yr dentist, many dentists with a lot of debt and pressures to produce tend to overtreat as in drilling and restoring unnecessarily to make their bottom line. A lot of DSO's mandate minimum production or they let you go. I feel sorry for patients who don't know and blindly trust their dentists. It is like a woman taking her European car to a repair shop and the service team see $$$.

Yep. The same with dentistry. Alot of people don't understand the debt burden and the direction the field is going (trending down).

That's why I say the debt income ratio is not worth it. The debt is going higher while the income is declining. I mean it's not rocket science. But that information falls on deaf ears and people just say well that's not true cuz I know doctor XYZ that works 4 days a week for 20 years and they do just fine. And there are some people that regardless of the debt load will still go to school because its a Doctorate Degree.

Today's new grads of dentistry will have it alot different then their older colleagues.

 

[AONLINE]

Uhh, you haven't worked in enough clinics. Trust me its a loss leader in some practices.

So why wouldn't those dentists let their hygienists go and start doing their own hygiene? I don't understand, it's literally common sense...

 

[DDS9994]

The drop in the purchasing power hurts everyone. 50% of millennials are moving back to live with their parents after college because they can’t afford to pay rents (50% Of Millennials Are Moving Back Home With Their Parents After College). In the past, my tenants used to call me a lot for repairs. Now, they rarely call me because they are afraid that I will raise their rents. At least we, dentists, make good enough income and we can pay for our own rent (or home mortgage). We can help our parents instead of relying on them for financial support. We can still afford to go eat out, travel, and do other fun things that many others cannot due to inflation. It’s a big deal for many, when the natural gas price here in SoCal tripled last month. For us, dentists, we can significantly increase our salary to offset this inflation by adding another work day (from 4 days/wk to 5 days/wk) but for other low income earners, they have to add another full time job…. and still can’t earn what we earn in a day.

Dental hygiene is a good career if you don’t mind working under a dentist boss, setting up/cleaning your own chair, and facing the high risk of having hand/wrist and back injuries. My sister-in-law is a hygienist and she can afford to live in the same neighborhood that we are in. But she has to walk around with a wrist brace on her hand.

Inflation defintiely hurts the dental field. As you said gas has gone up, supplies, staff wages is the killer, rent, equipment, etc but what hasnt gone up? The reimbursements from insurance, so if you are all in for PPO you are taking a haircut the last 2 years. So you either are gonna see alot more pts to make up the difference, be happy with the cut, or go OON to get higher fees and deal with pts leaving the practice.

 

[DDS9994]

Correct...

You live in a warm climate? I saw you posted your house went from 700 to 1 milli, and its around 2k sq ft

 

[charlestweed]

Just my opinion and observations. I don't think a lot of people know what they're getting into. There is a nation wide student debt crisis. Back in the mid 2000s, a caller to a personal finance show had gone to a private grad school in Vermont and racked up about $250k to get a Masters in Library Science. I usually skip these shows but this caller caught my attention. After she graduated, her librarian job only paid $23k/yr. Another sad case involved a student going to a 4th tier Law School called Thomas Jefferson located in San Diego (not sure if they're still open). After graduating with about $250k debt, he couldn't find a lawyer job and can only work as a legal assistant for $14/hr.

At least in dentistry, you are guaranteed a 6 figure starting salary, which helps make paying back the student loan debt easier than the people who chose other career paths. I’d rather be a dentist with 500k debt than being a musician with zero debt. At least I have the option to work 6 days/wk to pay off the debt faster. The musician can't find jobs....and it's even harder if he/she is a lousy musician.

My observations as a 25 yr dentist, many dentists with a lot of debt and pressures to produce tend to overtreat as in drilling and restoring unnecessarily to make their bottom line. A lot of DSO's mandate minimum production or they let you go. I feel sorry for patients who don't know and blindly trust their dentists. It is like a woman taking her European car to a repair shop and the service team see $$$.

It depends on the DSO you work at. For the DSOs that accept HMOs, you actually try to do as little as possible because everything you do is $0. You have to know how to upgrade….ie from nonprecious metal crown to PFM…from metal ortho brackets to ceramic brackets. Some DSOs pay dentist the % of production and let the treating dentist has the full autonomy....no pressuring in doing unnecessary treatments. The less the dentist produces, the less he makes.

It depends on the individual dentist's ethical standard. There are private offices that do unncessary treatments as well.

 

[charlestweed]

Yep. The same with dentistry. Alot of people don't understand the debt burden and the direction the field is going (trending down).

That's why I say the debt income ratio is not worth it. The debt is going higher while the income is declining. I mean it's not rocket science. But that information falls on deaf ears and people just say well that's not true cuz I know doctor XYZ that works 4 days a week for 20 years and they do just fine. And there are some people that regardless of the debt load will still go to school because its a Doctorate Degree.

Today's new grads of dentistry will have it alot different then their older colleagues.

It’s not just dentistry. Medicine, law, pharmacy, engineering etc are all trending down. Even dental hygiene, which you’ve talked very highly of in the last couple of posts, is also trending down…. when the dentist bosses suffer, so do the hygienists because they depend on the dentists for employments. Everything is trending down. And the major culprit is inflation. High student loan debt is another one.

Life is definitely harder for the younger generation.

 

[charlestweed]

Inflation defintiely hurts the dental field. As you said gas has gone up, supplies, staff wages is the killer, rent, equipment, etc but what hasnt gone up? The reimbursements from insurance, so if you are all in for PPO you are taking a haircut the last 2 years. So you either are gonna see alot more pts to make up the difference, be happy with the cut, or go OON to get higher fees and deal with pts leaving the practice.

Yup, it helps if you are good and fast and can handle high patient volume in a day. More patients = higher income. My OS friend accepts medicaid because he can take out teeth fast.

 

[Thehighwind87]

So why wouldn't those dentists let their hygienists go and start doing their own hygiene? I don't understand, it's literally common sense...

Lol. Do you have a practice? Honest question.

Inflation defintiely hurts the dental field. As you said gas has gone up, supplies, staff wages is the killer, rent, equipment, etc but what hasnt gone up? The reimbursements from insurance, so if you are all in for PPO you are taking a haircut the last 2 years. So you either are gonna see alot more pts to make up the difference, be happy with the cut, or go OON to get higher fees and deal with pts leaving the practice.

last 2 years? more like 10 years+. LOL

 

[AONLINE]

Lol. Do you have a practice? Honest question.

I don't have a practice, I am an associate. When I worked for a DSO they made me see all prophy patients since all those crappy insurance plans pay very little for those prophies. That DSO only employs 1 hygienist in each of their offices (normally 2 docs per office) and the hygienist only does SRPs, which pay decently at about $1000 for every 4 quads. That model works for the DSO, they manage to stay very profitable and their associate dentists make a pretty good income too. I did not complain about doing prophy as I was earning pretty good money anyways, I left that DSO for unrelated reasons. Since I am not an owner, I would really love to hear from owners like you as to why there are docs that would employ hygienists at a loss?

 

[DDS9994]

Lol. Do you have a practice? Honest question.

last 2 years? more like 10 years+. LOL

Prior to COVID it wasnt bad a t all, but after COVID it

Lol. Do you have a practice? Honest question.

last 2 years? more like 10 years+. LOL

prior to COVID not bad at all, last 2 years really bad.

 

[DDS9994]

I don't have a practice, I am an associate. When I worked for a DSO they made me see all prophy patients since all those crappy insurance plans pay very little for those prophies. That DSO only employs 1 hygienist in each of their offices (normally 2 docs per office) and the hygienist only does SRPs, which pay decently at about $1000 for every 4 quads. That model works for the DSO, they manage to stay very profitable and their associate dentists make a pretty good income too. I did not complain about doing prophy as I was earning pretty good money anyways, I left that DSO for unrelated reasons. Since I am not an owner, I would really love to hear from owners like you as to why there are docs that would employ hygienists at a loss?

They basically made you the hygienists at that DSO and as a bonus you got to do production. As An owner given all the expenses you have, you simply cant base a practice off of hygiene. IF you are in network in a suburban area, you will have a ton of hygiene that you simply cant do, I am talking full families. And hygiene brings in tons of treatment, ,those pts that go thru hygiene are like annuities that will eventually pay out with tx.

 

[charlestweed]

They basically made you the hygienists at that DSO and as a bonus you got to do production. As An owner given all the expenses you have, you simply cant base a practice off of hygiene. IF you are in network in a suburban area, you will have a ton of hygiene that you simply cant do, I am talking full families. And hygiene brings in tons of treatment, ,those pts that go thru hygiene are like annuities that will eventually pay out with tx.

So without the hygienist, your practice wouldn't be as productive because it takes away the doctor's time (for having to do the cleanings yourself). Your hygienist indirectly helps increase your office's productivity. So it's not a loss. It's like hiring an assistant. The assistant doesn't produce anything. Only you, the doctor, can produce. But you still have to pay your assistants because they help you produce $$$ more efficiently.

 

[DDS9994]

So without the hygienist, your practice wouldn't be as productive because it takes away the doctor's time (for having to do the cleanings yourself). Your hygienist indirectly helps increase your office's productivity. So it's not a loss. It's like hiring an assistant. The assistant doesn't produce anything. Only you, the doctor, can produce. But you still have to pay your assistants because they help you produce $$$ more efficiently.

Exactly right, right now I have 2 hygienists seeing 2 pt about 225 a piece while I work on crown and build up thats about 975. So you can see 975 +450= 1425. The labor is 45+45+21=111. So roughly 1300 for that hour. So yes hygienist make you productive, very rpoductive

 

[Molar Whisperer]

I don't have a practice, I am an associate. When I worked for a DSO they made me see all prophy patients since all those crappy insurance plans pay very little for those prophies. That DSO only employs 1 hygienist in each of their offices (normally 2 docs per office) and the hygienist only does SRPs, which pay decently at about $1000 for every 4 quads. That model works for the DSO, they manage to stay very profitable and their associate dentists make a pretty good income too. I did not complain about doing prophy as I was earning pretty good money anyways, I left that DSO for unrelated reasons. Since I am not an owner, I would really love to hear from owners like you as to why there are docs that would employ hygienists at a loss?

I used to work for Aspen where the hyg gets production pay for selling SRPs and Arrestin. I noticed my hyg perio probes ~2-3 mm deeper to get that SRP justification. She happened to probe on an attorney who went somewhere else where they said he didn't need SRPs. He filed a Board complaint against me. That company seems to get numerous Board Complaints. I feel sorry for dentists pressured to make quotas.

 

[Splenda88]

I am thinking of moving to south FL as well in 2024! Are decent 700k houses still a thing in FL?

Hard to find to be honest. I will be moving to Palm Beach county, which is ~ 1hr away from Miami.

You will need to spend 1.2+ mil to find anything decent in Miami-Dade or Broward county.

Below is a house in Broward for sale: I think this is decent

4280 SW 178th Ave, Miramar, FL 33029 | Zillow

4280 SW 178th Ave, Miramar FL, is a Single Family home that contains 3409 sq ft and was built in 2022.It contains 4 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms.This home last sold for $930,000 in April 2023. The Zestimate for this Single Family is $961,500, which has decreased by $11,819 in the last 30 days.The...

www.zillow.com

 

[Cold Front]

I used to work for Aspen where the hyg gets production pay for selling SRPs and Arrestin. I noticed my hyg perio probes ~2-3 mm deeper to get that SRP justification. She happened to probe on an attorney who went somewhere else where they said he didn't need SRPs. He filed a Board complaint against me. That company seems to get numerous Board Complaints. I feel sorry for dentists pressured to make quotas.

Desperate times, desperate measures. Corporations are sitting on big big big junk rated debts. Aspen parent company is a partnership entity between international private equities. They just want to see the numbers to support their operations, every case is SRP if that’s what it takes, they could care less about 2-3 perio pockets.

A former classmate of mine is Aspen MCD/POP dentist, and sits on the Texas Dental Board. Last time I checked, she was running 3 Aspen offices under her name. I also know another guy in Minnesota with multiple Aspen offices who sits on that state’s board too. A major conflict of interest, and no dental board complaint will dent Aspen’s plans to operate in those markets.

 

[princeafrica]

Lol if this is actually true "hygienists make more then the practice brings in from a cleaning," I don't believe any private practice or DSO is stupid enough to operate like that. The hygienists will be let go immediately and the cleaning patients would be seen by the dentists.

A hygienist posted their paystub from DSO the other day in a FB group. She is making $155k/year.
Only SRP and Perio maintenance which run close to $500 with all the extras they throw in (irrigation, laser, etc) but her pt population keeps coming back every 3 months

 

[Cold Front]

A hygienist posted their paystub from DSO the other day in a FB group. She is making $155k/year.
Only SRP and Perio maintenance which run close to $500 with all the extras they throw in (irrigation, laser, etc) but her pt population keeps coming back every 3 months

Supply and demand. I have nothing against hygienists making more. They went to school for less time and debt than dentists. It’s a great career to be in now. I can see some pre-dents jumping over to the hygiene path.

Question is… will some new dentist grads do part time hygiene gigs over dentistry to make easy money on the side the first couple of years out of school? No malpractice insurance. No complex cases. More time to be on TikTok. lol

 

[Thehighwind87]

Supply and demand. I have nothing against hygienists making more. They went to school for less time and debt than dentists. It’s a great career to be in now. I can see some pre-dents jumping over to the hygiene path.

Question is… will some new dentist grads do part time hygiene gigs over dentistry to make easy money on the side the first couple of years out of school? No malpractice insurance. No complex cases. More time to be on TikTok. lol

Another option is for dentists to semi-retire as a hygienist- which I plan on doing. Sell the practice, take on a hygiene role- negotiate for maybe 80-90 an hour, 8 cleanings, health insurance for minimal hours with 401k. No production quota, no production incentive, no stressful dentistry, no liability.

Hygiene is a great field and most likely won’t be replaced anytime soon.