The carib schools are toast!

[exPCM]

Just look at this and you should be able to figure out why the Carib schools are toast.

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[Katatonic]

Well that's encouraging. How much does that squeeze the available residency spots for carib grads, since they are relatively static I think?

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Just look at this and you should be able to figure out why the Carib schools are toast.

For everyone who was scared s***less from the post. Here is the NRMP 2009 match data:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/advancedatatables2009.pdf

Yes, the Match in the very near future will be very competitive. But, it also will get competitive for EVERYONE, not just Carib students. Therefore, all IMGs will need to beef up their CV to be a more competitive applicant.

 

[dragonfly99]

Hmmm...that is interesting. I didn't realize the DO schools were growing at such a high rate. I wonder what % of DO graduates end up in allopathic residencies vs. DO ones? Or what % of DO grads even try for allopathic residencies? Or what % of Carib grads are Canadians, who might be trying for Canadian residencies only, and/or applying to both US and Canadian residencies.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the number of residency positions in the US in coming years. It would cost money to add more, but I wouldn't be surprised if that happened...though doubtful that it will be enough to come close to offsetting the increase in US med school graduates. The AAMC had a plan to grow the med schools to fill up more of the residencies anyway, and I guess they are doing it. I didn't realize it was happening this fast.

Agree with the above comment...would expect competition for the more competitive residencies to get even more fierce in the coming years, for both US grads and IMG/FMG's. I'd think that non US citizen FMG's would be the first to get left out in the cold, but perhaps not if they are the ones with the big fat USMLE scores and the most research.

 

[McGillGrad]

lol... this is only bad news for weak applicants (AMG/USIMG/FMG etc), not necessarily Carib students.

Many PDs won't choose an inferior AMG over a superior non-AMG, so someone's toast, but it is going to be spread around far and wide.

 

[digitalising]

mmm, Maillard reactions on bread...

 

[Taurus]

lol... this is only bad news for weak applicants (AMG/USIMG/FMG etc), not necessarily Carib students.

Many PDs won't choose an inferior AMG over a superior non-AMG, so someone's toast, but it is going to be spread around far and wide.

True, the pain will be felt by everyone, but it will be felt most by FMG's. You're in denial to say otherwise. I would think twice before going Carib if I had to match in 2013.

 

[McGillGrad]

True, the pain will be felt by everyone, but it will be felt most by FMG's. You're in denial to say otherwise. I would think twice before going Carib if I had to match in 2013.

What do you consider an FMG? And why would DO's not suffer more, since their numbers are growing the fastest...which means more underqualified applicants going the DO route.

 

[Taurus]

What do you consider an FMG? And why would DO's not suffer more, since their numbers are growing the fastest...which means more underqualified applicants going the DO route.

MD > DO >> US FMG >= IMG

Think what you want to think. I've been through the match now and saw first hand it is like. FMG's will still match, but in much smaller numbers than today. Desirable specialties like rads and gas will be harder to get for MD's and nearly out of reach for FMG's except for the superstars.

The question for FMG's is, do you want to risk 4 years of your life and 200k in debt for a smaller and smaller chance to match? If <50% of FMG's match today, what will the % be when the expansion is complete? 30%? 20%? With such diminished chances, I think it's too risky to go FMG and would advise anyone to investigate other careers such as dentistry.

 

[McGillGrad]

That's interesting.

So you're saying someone with the same Step scores and English fluency is inferior to a AMG because they went to a non-US school?

How does that logical happen? What is the difference?

MD > DO >> US FMG >= IMG

Think what you want to think. I've been through the match now and saw first hand it is like. FMG's will still match, but in much smaller numbers than today. Desirable specialties like rads and gas will be harder to get for MD's and nearly out of reach for FMG's except for the superstars.

The question for FMG's is, do you want to risk 4 years of your life and 200k in debt for a smaller and smaller chance to match? If <50% of FMG's match today, what will the % be when the expansion is complete? 30%? 20%? With such diminished chances, I think it's too risky to go FMG and would advise anyone to investigate other careers such as dentistry.

 

[Taurus]

So you're saying someone with the same Step scores and English fluency is inferior to a AMG because they went to a non-US school?

That's the reality. I don't know why you are still surprised by this. I pointed this out to you in other threads. You can accept reality or continue to live in denial. Doesn't matter to me. The match can be very cruel.

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Hahaha,

Oh my. I love these dicussions! In case you all haven't noticed, this dicussion was sort of taking place the last two days in the general residency forum. You know, that derm applicant who lashed on IMGs.....

 

[aakinszs]

Does that come with butter or cream cheese?

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

Does that come with butter or cream cheese?

Hmmmm...butter I think

 

[McGillGrad]

I am asking you a question that you cannot answer. I expected as much.

In fact, it is not reality. The best qualified applicant gets the position in most cases. This is what scares people like you. It is the competition from a better person.

You can have a 1-for-1 match and I would still not be worried as a Canadian Carib grad. Unless, of course, all of my competition has a higher than 99/243 (or more) and is also a US citizen.

That's the reality. I don't know why you are still surprised by this. I pointed this out to you in other threads. You can accept reality or continue to live in denial. Doesn't matter to me. The match can be very cruel.

 

[Taurus]

I am asking you a question that you cannot answer.

I don't make the rules. I'm just telling you how the PD's and selection committees think, based on other people's comments, talking to many PD's myself, and my own personal experience with going through the match. Go ahead and stay in denial.

 

[howelljolly]

True, the pain will be felt by everyone, but it will be felt most by FMG's. You're in denial to say otherwise. I would think twice before going Carib if I had to match in 2013.

You know, I met this retired old-timer surgeon... professor.... the whole bit... and in his retirement, he went to the Caribbean to teach.

I asked him why he chose to do that. He said that in a time where the medical field is being broken into by PAs and NPs who "fill" the Primary Care need in the US, hed rather support the thousands of Americans who want to be physicians so badly that they'd go to a foreign country, and then come back to the US and gladly take any left over FP residency seat they could get into. He'd rather the Primary Care shortage be filled that way.

Just some food for thought.

 

[McGillGrad]

The rules that you claim do not even exist. That is the point. You have an opinon but that is all.

Trying to pretend like your opinion is fact is delusional.

I don't make the rules. I'm just telling you how the PD's and selection committees think, based on other people's comments, talking to many PD's myself, and my own personal experience with going through the match. Go ahead and stay in denial.

 

[LaCasta]

Just look at this and you should be able to figure out why the Carib schools are toast.

Is that for the class of '12 or the expected number of seats for people matriculating in '12?

 

[RedState]

I am asking you a question that you cannot answer. I expected as much.

In fact, it is not reality. The best qualified applicant gets the position in most cases. This is what scares people like you. It is the competition from a better person.

You can have a 1-for-1 match and I would still not be worried as a Canadian Carib grad. Unless, of course, all of my competition has a higher than 99/243 (or more) and is also a US citizen.

Well I think political pressure will eventually win. The ACGME has an obligation to support US MD grads and, in the spirit of professional cooperation, I think DOs will come second (not to mention they have their own slots which the AOA will protect for them so that they can continue to cash in on the physician shortage). Carib schools are an enigma to most Americans and certainly, if the public is dragged into the debate, they will almost always prefer someone who received a regulated medical education in the states over somone who didn't make the cut and elected training in a 3rd world country. In the end, US grads are better for marketing. It's the hard truth, all the very decent IMGs notwithstanding.

 

[dtwalrus]

Just look at this and you should be able to figure out why the Carib schools are toast.

First off, what's with the animosity towards Caribbean schools? They provide an education and train much needed doctors. IN fact, they provide such a quality education that every year many students from these schools score 99's on the steps. Which means the top students at Carib schools are every bit as knowledgeable and well trained as the top students at US schools. This isn't a pissing contest. Everyone wants to be a physician, everyone wants to do the same work, why are you trying to throw up walls.

Second, your argument is completely wrong. THe AMA is predicitng a massive physician shortage in the next decade and has recommended a 30% increase in the number of physicians trained each year. Not the number of graduates from US schools. The number of physicians trained each year. 26,000 match slots currently. 19,000 to US, 7,000 to FMGs. The AMA wants more than 30,000 slots each year. Getting US schools to increase enrollment is just the first step. Even if all 26,000 matches come from US schools it does nothing to solve the shortage, which is why that is NOT the goal of the expansion.

You may see these numbers as a victory over Carib schools. They're not, they a much belated attempt to correct a massive imminant shortcoming in the medical community. You'll see residency slots increase, especially with the renewed push to limit resident work hours. And regardless. Even if there were 50,000 US graduates every year for only 25,000 slots, a US IMG with 90+s and good rec's will get a spot over a US Grad with 80s and mediocre rec's every time. We need quality doctors first and foremost, not simply American trained doctors.

 

[dragonfly99]

THe AMA is predicitng a massive physician shortage in the next decade and has recommended a 30% increase in the number of physicians trained each year. Not the number of graduates from US schools. The number of physicians trained each year. 26,000 match slots currently. 19,000 to US, 7,000 to FMGs. The AMA wants more than 30,000 slots each year.

You'll see residency slots increase, especially with the renewed push to limit resident work hours. And regardless. Even if there were 50,000 US graduates every year for only 25,000 slots, a US IMG with 90+s and good rec's will get a spot over a US Grad with 80s and mediocre rec's every time. We need quality doctors first and foremost, not simply American trained doctors.

I wouldn't be surprised if residency spots did increase....but I don't think it's a guarantee because remember, increasing the number of residency spots costs money, and it's money from the federal gov't, primarily. It would likely be cheaper to increase the number of PA's and NP's, so I wouldn't be surprised if the US gov't chooses to go that route.

I'm not sure that most residency programs will prefer US IMG with 90+ on the USMLE over US grads with 80's USMLE either. I know some of them do, but for others they are looking more to protect their own (i.e. some of the state schools and their residency programs) and/or for people who are native to their states and/or likely to stay there to practice. Some people and some programs just tend to tar all Carib grads with the same brush too, which really isn't fair - some of it I think is just bias and thinking the Carib grads weren't "good enough" to get into a US school, but some of it is based on their experiences with seeing doctors trained in some of the store-front diploma-mill type Carib schools that used to exist, and still do to some extent.

I think we'll see the competition for residency spots ratcheted up in the next few years, and I do think it's likely to get hard for FMG and US IMG's to get a spot. The people with the 99 USMLE scores likely won't have to worry about getting spots any time soon, though it will be harder to get the specialties they want. I agree it will get harder for US allo and US DO grads, too.

 

[howelljolly]

First off, what's with the animosity towards Caribbean schools? They provide an education and train much needed doctors. IN fact, they provide such a quality education that every year many students from these schools score 99's on the steps. Which means the top students at Carib schools are every bit as knowledgeable and well trained as the top students at US schools. This isn't a pissing contest. Everyone wants to be a physician, everyone wants to do the same work, why are you trying to throw up walls.
.

While I appreciate your sentiment, this is where youre wrong. You're correct in that many Caribbean students score 99s. But, this has nothing to do with the quality of their education. (though Im thinking of a possible exception, a school which seems to put out consistently high scorers)
Since the massive increase in Caribbean schools in the mid-90's the first-attempt passing rate on the Step1 for US-IMGs has dropped to ~50%. However, there are plenty of Carib students who get a 99 (I prefer to say 'above a 240'). Most that do pass, do very well.
They do this with their own hard work, unrelated to the school itself. They often skip class. If they dont, they sleep in class, because they spend all of their free time hitting the books.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" - Mark Twain

OK, carry on....

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

They do this with their own hard work, unrelated to the school itself. They often skip class. If they dont, they sleep in class, because they spend all of their free time hitting the books.QUOTE]

I sure hope you are a Carib student speaking of your own personal experience. Because if you are an AMG you have no right to make a statement like that. Furthermore, if you are a Carib student, speak only for yourself, not the Carib students as a whole when making a statement like that. Comments like that do not help our uphill battle.

 

[howelljolly]

They do this with their own hard work, unrelated to the school itself. They often skip class. If they dont, they sleep in class, because they spend all of their free time hitting the books.QUOTE]

I sure hope you are a Carib student speaking of your own personal experience. Because if you are an AMG you have no right to make a statement like that. Furthermore, if you are a Carib student, speak only for yourself, not the Carib students as a whole when making a statement like that. Comments like that do not help our uphill battle.

K

 

[Tigerz_Fan]

K

Thank you

 

[BrainBuff]

McGillGrad,

What do you consider an FMG? And why would DO's not suffer more, since their numbers are growing the fastest...which means more underqualified applicants going the DO route.

I am not sure if you are being sarcastic, naive or if you are just honestly completely unaware of the subject. The term FMG was an "official term" (which is very different) to designate foreign medical graduates. Because of political correctness and because of the great number of american citizens who go overseas for their medical education, the term IMG (international medical graduate) was felt to be a better choice ( It used to be that most FMGs were "foreign" but with so many of them being citizens, the change made sense )

American going to a foreign medical school = American who was rejected from US Med school or American whose chances to get admitted in the US were slim and did not want to waste his time.

That is the general belief and even though there may be some exceptions, it holds true for the most part. What this means is that, unfortunately, there is a certain stigma attached. Just like DOs have a little bit of stigma as well, because most DOs could not get accepted into Allopathic programs. ( I would like to talk to a few that went that route because of the philosophy).

It is different to come from, let's say, the University of Barcelona or Bologna or even Guadalajara, which are universities that have a history and prestige of their own established for centuries, than to come from a caribbean university that was created with the sole purpose of being business entity, after recognizing the potential of absorbing all those students that were going elsewhere or desperately wanted to study medicine.

So, you see, it is not about animosity. There are some harsh facts that some people have a hard time swallowing. It is only by addressing these realities and establishing some very needed affiliations and improvements to their programs, that caribbean schools have lessened the stigma.

On another note, the 2009 match was another worst for IMGs with the greatest drop in matched applicants from the previous year while compared to American graduates and DOs. Whoever thinks that residency positions are going be "easier" for IMGs in the future, needs to wake up.

 

[badasshairday]

While I appreciate your sentiment, this is where youre wrong. You're correct in that many Caribbean students score 99s. But, this has nothing to do with the quality of their education. (though Im thinking of a possible exception, a school which seems to put out consistently high scorers)
Since the massive increase in Caribbean schools in the mid-90's the first-attempt passing rate on the Step1 for US-IMGs has dropped to ~50%. However, there are plenty of Carib students who get a 99 (I prefer to say 'above a 240'). Most that do pass, do very well.
They do this with their own hard work, unrelated to the school itself. They often skip class. If they dont, they sleep in class, because they spend all of their free time hitting the books.

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education" - Mark Twain

OK, carry on....

Let us not also forget Carib students get more time to study for Step 1. I know a friend at Ross has 3 months to study for the exam, while in the US, we get about 1 month.

 

[digitalising]

Let us not also forget Carib students get more time to study for Step 1. I know a friend at Ross has 3 months to study for the exam, while in the US, we get about 1 month.

That really depends on when you start; I started in September and I'll have probably a month or so to prep for Step 1. Those who started in January will have longer.

 

[McGillGrad]

Let us not also forget Carib students get more time to study for Step 1. I know a friend at Ross has 3 months to study for the exam, while in the US, we get about 1 month.

Let's not forget that most Carib schools go year round and have no summer break like US schools so it is more intense and less time to relax in between semesters.

 

[Sulfinator]

In fact, it is not reality. The best qualified applicant gets the position in most cases.

I actually had a conversation recently with the assistant PD of a residency program that I am interested in. He more or less told me that I would probably be at the top of their rank list if I applied to their program this fall. He listed several reasons that would make my application relatively "desirable" for the program; among those reasons was the fact that I will be an AMG. Now I realize this is anecdotal, but it does suggest that programs do generally prefer AMGs. That's not to say at all that FMGs/IMGs are SOL, just that there is likely some degree (although who can say how much) of disadvantage when compared to AMG applicants, assuming all other things are equal (which is another caveat).

 

[Taurus]

I actually had a conversation recently with the assistant PD of a residency program that I am interested in. He more or less told me that I would probably be at the top of their rank list if I applied to their program this fall. He listed several reasons that would make my application relatively "desirable" for the program; among those reasons was the fact that I will be an AMG. Now I realize this is anecdotal, but it does suggest that programs do generally prefer AMGs. That's not to say at all that FMGs/IMGs are SOL, just that there is likely some degree (although who can say how much) of disadvantage when compared to AMG applicants, assuming all other things are equal (which is another caveat).

Shhhh!!! McGilly is still living in the land of denial.

 

[exPCM]

Is that for the class of '12 or the expected number of seats for people matriculating in '12?

The 2012 column is the number starting med school in 2012.
If a significant number of US med school students do not match because FMGs with higher board scores were picked you can bet the US med schools will howl to their congressional representatives and the NRMP. I think it likely that one day there will be a match for US med school grads only followed by a secondary match for the few unfilled spots that will be open to FMGs.
The government is going into hyperdebt with all of the stimulus and bailouts. There is no money available to increase the number of residency spots. In fact I would not be surprised if GME funding were cut rather than expanded in the future.

 

[McGillGrad]

The fact remains that the objective facts such as those from the NRMP survey prove you wrong, but you think that talking to a few people make you right.

That is pretty delusional. But then again, you're an American grad coming to poke Carib students with a stick for fun.

There are numerous reasons why someone would do that and they all reflect on how you see yourself and how your peers treat you.

According to objective data collected from PDs:

• 
  PD's in all specialties rank:
  
  1. Being an AMG 64% of the time as a critical factor
  
  2. Step score as a critical factor 82% of the time
  
  3. Personal knowledge of the applicant 66% of the time as critical

Objectively, that says that being a US grad is just as important as having done a rotation at the program and much less important than Step 1 score.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf

Shhhh!!! McGilly is still living in the land of denial.

 

[McGillGrad]

That is quite a leap. Talking to one assistant PD means that they generally prefer AMGs?

Your story means that it is true for that program (and probably many more) but it is not objecive evidence either way.

I actually had a conversation recently with the assistant PD of a residency program that I am interested in. He more or less told me that I would probably be at the top of their rank list if I applied to their program this fall. He listed several reasons that would make my application relatively "desirable" for the program; among those reasons was the fact that I will be an AMG. Now I realize this is anecdotal, but it does suggest that programs do generally prefer AMGs. That's not to say at all that FMGs/IMGs are SOL, just that there is likely some degree (although who can say how much) of disadvantage when compared to AMG applicants, assuming all other things are equal (which is another caveat).

 

[McGillGrad]

I would be great if there was a 1-for-1 match for US grads, only.


That would be something to strive for in both the US and Canada. This would help push back mid-levels from medicine.

The fact that the AMA is lobbying for more residency spots reminds you that all 17,000 spots we have now are still not enough for the shortage that will be at its peak in 2045. http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/no-index/about-ama/12118.shtml

The 2012 column is the number starting med school in 2012.
If a significant number of US med school students do not match because FMGs with higher board scores were picked you can bet the US med schools will howl to their congressional representatives and the NRMP. I think it likely that one day there will be a match for US med school grads only followed by a secondary match for the few unfilled spots that will be open to FMGs.
The government is going into hyperdebt with all of the stimulus and bailouts. There is no money available to increase the number of residency spots. In fact I would not be surprised if GME funding were cut rather than expanded in the future.

 

[McGillGrad]

McGillGrad,



I am not sure if you are being sarcastic, naive or if you are just honestly completely unaware of the subject.

I was being facetious, but I do appreciate your post because it will probably help a lot of people understand the topic.

I was getting at the difference between what most people imagine to be an FMG (non-fluent-or accented Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Eastern European experienced physician who wants to move to the US to work and live).

This is in contrast to the people who generally go to the Carib schools. They are 90-95% Americans citizens, 5-10% Canadian citizens and a mishmash of "others" that are not North American.

If he is stating that a clueless 25 year old US AMG with a 215 would be chosen over a 35 year old accented Indian FMG with a 245 on the step but without much exposure to US culture and protocol, then I AGREE that the AMG will easily be favoured.

Take the same scenario and replace the FMG with a 28 year old US citizen with a 230 step score and a motivated personality and the PD would have a very difficult time choosing the AMG over the USIMG.

 

[BrainBuff]

^^^ US med school graduates will always be favored unless their credentials are really pathetic. Caribbean graduates in particular (not the same as an Indian graduate from an Indian Medical school) really have to prove themselves and go the extra mile in terms of hard work and excellence in their US rotations to be able to beat a US graduate. That's the reason why most IMGs try to develop very good relationships in the places they are rotating, while hoping to later match in those programs.

 

[badasshairday]

If he is stating that a clueless 25 year old US AMG with a 215 would be chosen over a 35 year old accented Indian FMG with a 245 on the step but without much exposure to US culture and protocol, then I AGREE that the AMG will easily be favoured.

Take the same scenario and replace the FMG with a 28 year old US citizen with a 230 step score and a motivated personality and the PD would have a very difficult time choosing the AMG over the USIMG.

The AMG could have scored a 230 with 3 months to study as well. PD's know that IMGs often have more time to study for the test. If said AMG went to a mid-tier US allo school, I don't think it would be that hard to choose the AMG over the IMG.

 

[McGillGrad]

No, he's not that smart or motivated. He would have done worse if he had studied three months. That's a fact.

The AMG could have scored a 230 with 3 months to study as well. PD's know that IMGs often have more time to study for the test. If said AMG went to a mid-tier US allo school, I don't think it would be that hard to choose the AMG over the IMG.

 

[McGillGrad]

It's interesting that you keep saying that but PD's say differently.

Did you look at the PD survey the NRMP posted on their website?

Yes, it is important to be an AMG (64%) but step 1 is more important (82%).

Where do you get your info from?

^^^ US med school graduates will always be favored unless their credentials are really pathetic. Caribbean graduates in particular (not the same as an Indian graduate from an Indian Medical school) really have to prove themselves and go the extra mile in terms of hard work and excellence in their US rotations to be able to beat a US graduate. That's the reason why most IMGs try to develop very good relationships in the places they are rotating, while hoping to later match in those programs.

 

[BrainBuff]

McGillGrad,

This has less to do with "numbers" and more to do with the long established perception of poor academic training that Caribbean graduates (in particular) have. After all, admission to a residency program is not based on a blind list of Step Scores. Interview, letters of recommendations and the quality of the medical school play a very important role as well. As far as grades are concerned: A carib student with all "A"s is less impressive than a US Grad with all Bs. No question about that.

In the US, for decades, at the time of applying for residency, med students have subjectively measured the quality of a residency program by how many FMGs the program has. The perception is that: if there are "too many FMGs, the program was likely unable to match with US graduates and "had" to fill up with FMGs. The result is that many US graduates won't rank the program and will find it less desirable. Unfortunately, this perception permeates the PDs themselves who DO NOT want their programs to have that reputation. And, in our "politically correct society", these inherent biases won't make any of your surveys.

I get that you must not be in the US or your experience here must have been very limited. Just because it should not be this way, it does not mean that it is not. Caribbean grads have a great burden to bear.

 

[BrainBuff]

And about your "released data" you are interpreting it all wrong.

According to objective data collected from PDs:
PD's in all specialties rank:

1. Being an AMG 64% of the time as a critical factor

2. Step score as a critical factor 82% of the time

3. Personal knowledge of the applicant 66% of the time as critical


What does that mean anyway? The Step Score may be a critical factor 82% of the time when looking at applicants with comparable backgrounds ie: coming from US medical schools versus looking at their clinical years grades, let's say. It says nothing about giving it more importance over being an AMG. You are just trying to read it that way.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[McGillGrad]

Actually, you are seeing what you want from the data.

Each question is measuring an independent variable. That is the only reason to ask about AMG status first. It separates the AMG status from Step 1 scores as critical variables.

If they were dependent, then there would be no point in asking the AMG question because it would be implicit in the step scores (and other questions).

I guess you didn't study humanities statistics, did you?

And about your "released data" you are interpreting it all wrong.

According to objective data collected from PDs:
PD's in all specialties rank:

1. Being an AMG 64% of the time as a critical factor

2. Step score as a critical factor 82% of the time

3. Personal knowledge of the applicant 66% of the time as critical


What does that mean anyway? The Step Score may be a critical factor 82% of the time when looking at applicants with comparable backgrounds ie: coming from US medical schools versus looking at their clinical years grades, let's say. It says nothing about giving it more importance over being an AMG. You are just trying to read it that way.

Do you see what I mean?

 

[BrainBuff]

Well, clearly you do not get it. You seem to be the one seeing what you want from the data and have clearly demonstrated it with your last post.

And since it appears your frustration is now leading you into personal attacks, I really see no point in continuing this exchange with you. And...."Humanities Statistics" ? Where did you take that......in the caribbean or in Canada?

By the way, denial is not a river in Egypt. I am sure I will continue to see you around here.

 

[McGillGrad]

lol... love the irony.

Anyhow, you can believe whatever you like but it is painfully obvious that the two questions are meant to be independent of each other.

Oddity of the day: you are the third person to talk about denial and the similarly named N African river, this week. Was this some sort of "quote of the day" or "cliche workshop" that I missed out on...

Well, clearly you do not get it. You seem to be the one seeing what you want from the data and have clearly demonstrated it with your last post.

And since it appears your frustration is now leading you into personal attacks, I really see no point in continuing this exchange with you. And...."Humanities Statistics" ? Where did you take that......in the caribbean or in Canada?

By the way, denial is not a river in Egypt. I am sure I will continue to see you around here.

 

[badasshairday]

I think what is being stated here is that as the number of AMG's grow, the more IMG's will be left out of the match. Given an AMG and IMG with similar stats, the AMG will be picked. So with this huge influx of AMG's in the next decade, IMG's will be left out more and more. Obviously, if you are a steller IMG you will still match. But for the average IMG it will be hard to compete with the huge amount of average AMG's.

 

[Sulfinator]

That is quite a leap. Talking to one assistant PD means that they generally prefer AMGs?

Your story means that it is true for that program (and probably many more) but it is not objecive evidence either way.

As I said in my post, this evidence is anecdotal. I do not mean to say that being an IMG/FMG is universally disadvantageous when applying to residencies. However, I think it is reasonable to suggest that, all things being equal (again, this is a caveat), being an AMG is advantageous (to some uncertain degree) over being an IMG/FMG when it comes to applying to residency. That's all I'm saying. I think the data you posted earlier (in which PDs thought being an AMG was "a critical factor" 64% of the time) is also indicative of this generality.

 

[McGillGrad]

That is exactly the point.

Some posters would like to pretend an AMG will be preferred under any circumstance. That may be more of a reflection of the poster's lack of confidence, but it is certainly not supported by fact.

I think what is being stated here is that as the number of AMG's grow, the more IMG's will be left out of the match. Given an AMG and IMG with similar stats, the AMG will be picked. So with this huge influx of AMG's in the next decade, IMG's will be left out more and more. Obviously, if you are a steller IMG you will still match. But for the average IMG it will be hard to compete with the huge amount of average AMG's.

 

[BrainBuff]

Obviously, if you are a steller IMG you will still match. But for the average IMG it will be hard to compete with the huge amount of average AMG's.

This is exactly the problem. There are not too many "stellar" IMGs because "stellar" students do not have to go to the caribbean for med school. You may get someone that because specific circumstances was not able to 'shine" during undergrad but those are really exceptions. To even consider them to support your argument is silly.