“The average GP salary is higher than reported”

[surfline]

The ADA states the average GP in private practice makes $188k, with an average gross billing of $656k. This implies dentists are paying themselves slightly less than 30%.

After talking to several GP’s about this, they all said that a GP will pay themselves 30% as a W2 (which shows up on their personal tax returns) and report this figure to the ADA. What they do not report is the profit off the business (found in their business tax returns).

So, according to the dentists I know, GP’s in private practice are consistently underrepresenting how much practice owners really make.

Since my sample size is less than 10, I was wondering if any other GP’s in private practice could chime in and add/substract some validity to this.

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[endoaccess]

If you guys really want to know dentist income, you have to talk to a dentist that is practicing in a situation that you envision yourself, and try to pry it out of him. There are too many variables to rely on anything from a third party. Honestly dentist income is all over the map. That ADA number is meaningless except maybe to compare trends in the industry.

1 question for you to ponder:
Why would anyone report to the ADA how much money they make?

 

[OhioDMD]

Here’s a link to the Bureau of Labor & Stats info

Dentists, General

 

[2TH MVR]

There's a lot of perks that come with owning your own business. Personal salary is just one part of a properly thought out tax strategy.

 

[deleted659902]

The ADA states the average GP in private practice makes $188k, with an average gross billing of $656k. This implies dentists are paying themselves slightly less than 30%.

After talking to several GP’s about this, they all said that a GP will pay themselves 30% as a W2 (which shows up on their personal tax returns) and report this figure to the ADA. What they do not report is the profit off the business (found in their business tax returns).

So, according to the dentists I know, GP’s in private practice are consistently underrepresenting how much practice owners really make.

Since my sample size is less than 10, I was wondering if any other GP’s in private practice could chime in and add/substract some validity to this.

don't know about GPs but orthos seem to be doing well for themselves according to this post...

"Each year, our firm surveys our clients to gather important comparative data. The 2014 report showed that the average orthodontist surveyed produced $1,550,000 and had an overhead of 55 percent. This equates to approximately $700,000 of income before paying any practice debt and perks. The 2014 report also showed that the average associate orthodontist surveyed made $1,139 per day. If that associate works an average of 16 days per month, he or she will make $218,688 for the year."

 

[2TH MVR]

I had those numbers PRE Invisalyn, PRE Corporate offering ortho in the $3000s, PRE saturation on every block. I took my entire staff to the AAO in Hawaii 3 times. Life was GOOD. Not the same now.
I tip my hat off to those orthodontists that are killing it in the saturated, desirable areas in the present.

 

[deleted659902]

I had those numbers PRE Invisalyn, PRE Corporate offering ortho in the $3000s, PRE saturation on every block. I took my entire staff to the AAO in Hawaii 3 times. Life was GOOD. Not the same now.
I tip my hat off to those orthodontists that are killing it in the saturated, desirable areas in the present.

Do you think as you got older you lost a sizeable portion of new patients to younger docs fresh off the residency or associateship? How can orthodontists still succeed financially in this climate (ie netting at least 500k) as a stand alone single ortho office? Direct advertising rather than referral-based? Lower-fee higher volume? Luxury and perceived quality? Multiple offices spanning several cities?

I think one critical downside to ortho is the constant need to find new patients as unlike GP patients, once they get their braces off they are most likely not coming back. Another downside is that it's the most recession-sensitive field of dentistry. You can wait on braces when the economy is bad, but when your tooth hurts? Not so much.

 

[charlestweed]

I think one critical downside to ortho is the constant need to find new patients as unlike GP patients, once they get their braces off they are most likely not coming back. Another downside is that it's the most recession-sensitive field of dentistry. You can wait on braces when the economy is bad, but when your tooth hurts? Not so much.

This does not only apply to ortho. Endo, OS, perio specialists are also in constant need to get new patients in order to survive. That’s why it’s important to maintain good relationship with the referring GPs. Unlike endo, perio and OS, GP referrals are not the only source of new patients the orthodontists can get….they can also get new patients from word of mouth referrals (and this is key for a more established practice) and by marketing their practices directly to the public.

To some parents, ortho tx is a necessity. Having a beautiful smile is very important to them. Who wouldn’t want their kids to look good? No matter how tight the budget is, many parents want to start treatments ASAP because they want their kids to be off of braces before HS, before quinceanera, before the sweet 16 birthday, before going to college etc. And spreading the payments over the 2 year period makes it easier for many parents to pay for the tx.

 

[deleted659902]

This does not only apply to ortho. Endo, OS, perio specialists are also in constant need to get new patients in order to survive. That’s why it’s important to maintain good relationship with the referring GPs. Unlike endo, perio and OS, GP referrals are not the only source of new patients the orthodontists can get….they can also get new patients from word of mouth referrals (and this is key for a more established practice) and by marketing their practices directly to the public.

To some parents, ortho tx is a necessity. Having a beautiful smile is very important to them. Who wouldn’t want their kids to look good? No matter how tight the budget is, many parents want to start treatments ASAP because they want their kids to be off of braces before HS, before quinceanera, before the sweet 16 birthday, before going to college etc. And spreading the payments over the 2 year period makes it easier for many parents to pay for the tx.

I agree that all other specialties are heavily-dependent on GP referrals (except maybe for Prosth). However, you have to realize that the target patient population of the other specialties are much wider ranging than that of ortho, which is mostly confined to adolescents. This means that the market is bigger for the other specialties such that their need for GP referrals is less than ortho's, making new starts even more crucial for orthodontists for their financial success (again something like 500k+ net for the sake of this post).

Ortho tx by and large is elective and is not a (medical) necessity. Dental abscess requiring drainage and a root canal therapy and other dental emergencies, on the other hand, are more of a necessity. If you just got laid off in a bear market, would you rather have your child treated for the fractured tooth with acute pain or elect for an ortho tx for straighter smile for "sweet 16?" Function trumps aesthetics, especially in an economic downturn. It is true that orthos make banks when the economy is doing well, but so do GPs during those times. It's just that GPs are less prone to external market forces than orthos are due to the variety and higher necessity of their services.

One may argue that GPs suffer from chronic neck and back pain along with their dealing with more scared/unpleasant patients, and that this alone makes pursuing orthodontics more rewarding. However, it should be noted that established GPs with multiple associates and practice locations can function more as a CEO and less as a dentist such that he/she no longer has to interact with the patients or do physically taxing dental procedures.

 

[charlestweed]

I agree that all other specialties are heavily-dependent on GP referrals (except maybe for Prosth). However, you have to realize that the target patient population of the other specialties are much wider ranging than that of ortho, which is mostly confined to adolescents. This means that the market is bigger for the other specialties such that their need for GP referrals is less than ortho's, making new starts even more crucial for orthodontists for their financial success (again something like 500k+ net for the sake of this post).

Ortho tx by and large is elective and is not a (medical) necessity. Dental abscess requiring drainage and a root canal therapy and other dental emergencies, on the other hand, are more of a necessity. If you just got laid off in a bear market, would you rather have your child treated for the fractured tooth with acute pain or elect for an ortho tx for straighter smile for "sweet 16?" Function trumps aesthetics, especially in an economic downturn. It is true that orthos make banks when the economy is doing well, but so do GPs during those times. It's just that GPs are less prone to external market forces than orthos are due to the variety and higher necessity of their services.

One may argue that GPs suffer from chronic neck and back pain along with their dealing with more scared/unpleasant patients, and that this alone makes pursuing orthodontics more rewarding. However, it should be noted that established GPs with multiple associates and practice locations can function more as a CEO and less as a dentist such that he/she no longer has to interact with the patients or do physically taxing dental procedures.

At most corporate offices, ortho specialty has the highest number of patients and has the most number of clinic days in a month when compare with other dental specialties. For example at one of the corp offices, where I currently work for, I am there 6 days a month and see 60-70 patients a day. 25% of the ortho patients are adults....many of them get braces the second time (and third time) because they didn't wear retainers. The OS works 2 days/month. Endo works 2 days/month. And the perio only works 1 day/month. On some slow days, the OS, endo, perio had to leave early because there were not enough patients to fill the appt book. Despite working fewer days in a month and seeing fewer patients in a day, the OS, however, may make more per day than what I make.

Most dental procedures are elective. People don't die or have toothache even when they don't come see the dentist for several years.....except for very few life threatening dental abscess cases. When the patients don't have money, they elect to pay $100 for a tooth extraction (or they just go to a local county hospital and get it done for free) just to get them out of pain...and not pay $1-2k for RCT + a crown. When pt don't have money to pay for 3-4 implants, they get a stay plate for a fraction of the cost. To start ortho tx, patients don't need to pay a lot of money up front .....just a couple of hundred dollars down payment and then pay $120-150 every month....perfect for people who live paycheck to paycheck.

I don't think general dentistry is safe either. Just look at how many new dental schools that were open in the last 10 years.

 

[2TH MVR]

Do you think as you got older you lost a sizeable portion of new patients to younger docs fresh off the residency or associateship? No.
How can orthodontists still succeed financially in this climate (ie netting at least 500k) as a stand alone single ortho office?
Find a less competitive, less desirable location (rural???) where there is less chance of competing practices
Direct advertising rather than referral-based? Need to do both
.Lower-fee higher volume? Charlestweed evidently has made this work and I admire his work ethic. I didn't become an orthodontist to practice this way though (no offense to Charlestweed). My wife won't let me work every day of the week.
Luxury and perceived quality? Will work in those small niches of high dental IQ, high medium salary families, but MOST families are looking for affordable braces that they can finance.
Multiple offices spanning several cities? Charlestweed?

I think one critical downside to ortho is the constant need to find new patients as unlike GP patients, once they get their braces off they are most likely not coming back. Usually you treat child A, then you get child B and so forth .... but as families try to save money ... they sometimes will look for a more affordable orthodontist or an ortho on their plan.
Another downside is that it's the most recession-sensitive field of dentistry. You can wait on braces when the economy is bad, but when your tooth hurts? Not so much. Agreed. Ortho is elective. But it goes both ways. When the economy was booming .... my numbers were great.

 

[charlestweed]

Charlestweed evidently has made this work and I admire his work ethic. I didn't become an orthodontist to practice this way though (no offense to Charlestweed). My wife won't let me work every day of the week. 2TH MVR

What I love about ortho is I have a lot more free time than most of my GP colleagues because the type of work I do is neither complicated nor time consuming. With so much free time I have in my hand, I can do many other things such as working P/T for the corp office to make more money, placing all the supply orders (so I can control cost) online, printing out all ortho forms at home, fixing things around the office etc. I actually enjoy doing all these non-clinical works for my practice. It feels good not having use outside services and being able to save a lot of money.

Since the job is so easy, I have to make it more challenging by booking as many patients in one day as possible when I am at my own practice. Since I can’t do this when I work for the corp, I have to bring a laptop to relieve the boredom (and that's how I become frequent poster on this forum). I can’t really complain about it because the corp still pays me a full day wage for sitting around doing nothing, especially in the morning when most kids are at school. It’s hard to let go an easy job that pays well.

 

[deleted659902]

Charlestweed evidently has made this work and I admire his work ethic. I didn't become an orthodontist to practice this way though (no offense to Charlestweed). My wife won't let me work every day of the week. 2TH MVR

What I love about ortho is I have a lot more free time than most of my GP colleagues because the type of work I do is neither complicated nor time consuming. With so much free time I have in my hand, I can do many other things such as working P/T for the corp office to make more money, placing all the supply orders (so I can control cost) online, printing out all ortho forms at home, fixing things around the office etc. I actually enjoy doing all these non-clinical works for my practice. It feels good not having use outside services and being able to save a lot of money.

Since the job is so easy, I have to make it more challenging by booking as many patients in one day as possible when I am at my own practice. Since I can’t do this when I work for the corp, I have to bring a laptop to relieve the boredom (and that's how I become frequent poster on this forum). I can’t really complain about it because the corp still pays me a full day wage for sitting around doing nothing, especially in the morning when most kids are at school. It’s hard to let go an easy job that pays well.

I agree in that nothing can beat ortho in terms of simplicity and ease of work and stress level, but top dollars will always be in general dentistry. The return on investment (tuition and practice purchase $$$) for an entrepreneurial grad who buys a practice upon graduation from dental school and subsequently expands the business into multiple offices with several associates is incomparable to what a fresh orthodontist can achieve. With the former, the owner can take on a primarily admin role by late 30s and essentially retire early from clinical dentistry while managing a business worth north of eight figure. Essentially, time is money. Money now is more valuable than money later. Let the early start in practice ownership work for you.

 

[free99]

Charlestweed evidently has made this work and I admire his work ethic. I didn't become an orthodontist to practice this way though (no offense to Charlestweed). My wife won't let me work every day of the week. 2TH MVR

What I love about ortho is I have a lot more free time than most of my GP colleagues because the type of work I do is neither complicated nor time consuming. With so much free time I have in my hand, I can do many other things such as working P/T for the corp office to make more money, placing all the supply orders (so I can control cost) online, printing out all ortho forms at home, fixing things around the office etc. I actually enjoy doing all these non-clinical works for my practice. It feels good not having use outside services and being able to save a lot of money.

Since the job is so easy, I have to make it more challenging by booking as many patients in one day as possible when I am at my own practice. Since I can’t do this when I work for the corp, I have to bring a laptop to relieve the boredom (and that's how I become frequent poster on this forum). I can’t really complain about it because the corp still pays me a full day wage for sitting around doing nothing, especially in the morning when most kids are at school. It’s hard to let go an easy job that pays well.

you are my spirit animal