That's because you never took O-chem!!!

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Nutmeg

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My sister just said that premeds have no right to talk about having worked hard to get where they are. She said, "I've enjoyed far more days of school than days of work."

I said, "That's because you never took O-chem." I then proceeded to talk about the fact that being a premed also means having to volunteer time, most have spent time working in hospitals and/or labs, and... and then I see she's giving me this glazed look of disgust. I say, "Why are you giving me that look?"

She says, "I hate the way science majors don't respect the humanities." (She majored in English).

Now, any of y'all who are familiar with my posts likely know that I often recommend humanities, and I see them as important. I generally only dog bio majors, and that's because I was stupid enough to not major in the subject where I'm strongest. But, dude, I think we all know that if O-chem wasn't required for high paying jobs like medicine and engineering, there would be about seven people taking that class each semester NATIONALLY.

I later said to my sister, "Don't accuse me of disrespecting; you're the one who said school wasn't work." She came back with the fact that "I've never had a real job. You said that what you liked about Target was that you didn't take it home with you."

Now, I worked at Target for 5 1/2 years, 40 - 70 hours/week, going to work between midnight to 4am. I unloaded trucks, throwing frieght down the skate as fast as possible, having boxes fall on me, standing in huge puddles of spilled fabric softener, choking on the dust of the cat litter used to soak up the fabric softener... Working with boxes until my hand got so dry they cracked and bled every winter, climbing ladders with freight on my back, dealing with @sshole customers, scrubbing shelves on my hands and knees... She, on the other hand, has always worked as an admin.

I'll say this: my lab partner in my Process Design chemical engineering class is a bit older than my sister. She's worked a variety of jobs as well, and now works for a chemical company. Yet we both agree that we can not wait to get out of school and be done with it. Simply put, no one who has ever taken o-chem or p-chem, or had to debug a bunch of code, or had to pull an all-nighter to finish the lab presentation which had been holding you up because you had two equations and four unknowns and didn't know where to make your simplifying assumptions, or had to stay 2 hours late in bio lab because your DNA gel was running slow because too many people were on one power source, or sat up all night studying for their neuroanatomy lab and imagined the smell of formalin all night because of it's association in your mind of that stench in lab... none of these people would ever say that school isn't work.

Sorry for ranting. Please carry on with your day. ;) :D :cool:

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can i officially say I would be one of the 7 kids taking it nationally haha.

but as for pchem. do shoot me.

but i have to side with you on this one nutmeg....

Nutmeg: 1
Sister of the Nut: 0

Toodles ;)
 
hmmm...

i did enjoy school tho. even with all the work and everything....
i really enjoyed school and the learning and the friends and the environment. your sis may be true that school is more enjoyable than work BUT.......that doesnt mean school is EASIER than work.
 
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Agreed. The only people who think school is a breeze are generally people who don't have the hellish 5-6 hour O-chem labs to deal with, 4-8 hour bio labs, etc. These are usually humanities majors...no, this is not flame bait and I'm not trying to knock humanities majors or anything...I just think their curriculum is easier and is less of a workload than a natural or physical science major. I still respect the humanities and I do believe that all the papers they write can amount to a considerable workload..but comparitively speaking...I think the sciences are much more difficult and rigorous. I was majoring in a social science field during my freshman year so I had the opportunity to meet lots of humanities and social science people...but I left the major immediately after freshman year because I didn't really feel I was being challenged and I didn't feel like I could ever apply anything I was learning (but nontheless..I still find the material interesting and every now and again..I venture back into this field by taking an upper division class in it). I think college is only as hard as you make it...if you want a courseload that will keep you in labs for **insert # of hours in double digits here**, fill your schedule up with chem, bio, physics, etc. If you want an easier courseload with more free time for your ECs, social life, etc...fill your courseload up with humanities courses.
 
I dunno man. School is a pain in the ass but working drives me crazy with boredom. I personally can't do something for long unless I think I'm learning something or getting something useful out of it in terms of personal development or fun. Most of the jobs I did have fortunately been useful for me to learn and grow, but everytime I do grunt work I feel like I'm wasting a part of my life to a meaningless task and I can't stand it.
 
Well, when I was working, I never found myself awake at 2 AM, surrounded by open textbooks, in a mild panic over something that was going to occur in about six hours. As I am right now.
 
Hmmm good point. It's around 5:30am here, I have a test in about... 8.5 hrs, and I haven't had sleep tonight. I'm going strong on just one can of diet coke for the entire night. I might be able to get to the "review" stage maybe after sunrise. ;) :(

Not yet in panic though, although frustration is rising and patience is almost gone.
 
I study fairly regularly, and I'm not too much of a slacker (other than my 10-15% lecture attendance rate), and yet I always find myself in serious, serious cram mode the night before an exam. There is just so much crap to remember. The day before the test, I go through my notes and underline everything that I didn't remember (that is, I didn't read it and say to myself, "ah yes, I've got that down.") Then the night before the test I just read the underlined parts over and over and over again, right up to point where the test is handed to me. It is relatively effective.
 
Dude, premeds take four 100-level courses, two 200-level courses, and the OH MY GOD 300-level organic chemistry. It's not hard. Please stop patting yourselves on the back. :rolleyes:

I had a 400-level psychology course that was more work than any of the four 100-level biology or inchem courses I took.
 
Originally posted by JKDMed
Dude, premeds take four 100-level courses, two 200-level courses, and the OH MY GOD 300-level organic chemistry. It's not hard. Please stop patting yourselves on the back. :rolleyes:

I had a 400-level psychology course that was more work than any of the four 100-level biology or inchem courses I took.

Well, Nutmeg is a pre-med who is also a chem engineering major, which I can personally vouch for as being one serious b!tch to even finish, let alone with a decent GPA. At my school, ChemE was one of the only majors I was aware of whose attrition rate was mostly due to people actually failing out rather than just changing their minds.
 
As a premed AND as a major and minor in the humanities (Spanish and Religion, respectively), I can vouch that I worked three times harder in my premed courses- both because of sheer amount of work, and because of the degree of difficulty.

*However*... just because science and math are more challenging for some, doesn't mean it's true for others. I have a good friend whose science gpa brings up the rest of his grades... math and science have always come easier to him than English. Go figure.
 
my basic feeling is that being a science major is more of a consistent level of hard work, doing problems and reading, whereas humanities works seems to come in chunks (ie papers) with little work in between
 
Although I worked harder in my science courses than I did in my humanities/History courses, I will say that I had more trouble with the humanities/History courses because they were sooo boring and I would fall asleep trying to study for them.:D :D :p
 
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As an English major, I must say that by senior year I definitely would have taken Orgo over another frickin' English seminar (physics is another matter, however). At least I had a hope for succeeding in my science classes...
 
Many of my humanities major friends actually knew the questions that would be on their tests a week or so before...call me crazy, but that would take a whole lot of stress out of test taking if I knew the questions beforehand...
 
I liked organic chemistry (although I hated the tedious labs). I HATED General Chemistry. I also enjoyed physics and calculus. My absolute least favorite class was Film Analysis. It was the biggest waste of time in my life. I'm all for the humanities, but analyzing movies that were not made to be analyzed is a waste. Plus the Godfather is a terrible movie (please don't kill me).
 
Thanks, y'all. I'm not intending to say that I don't think school isn't fun, or that I think English would be a breeze. I just needed to say that premed courses are hard work!
 
Here's my (unsolicited) take on the thing:

1. Science v. Humanties. It really depends to what level you study them. For example, I think psychology is a very important and rigorous discipline...but at my school it's a very popular major filled with people of varying levels of aptitude and dedication. Physics, on the other hand is full of people who work their butts off and care about what their learning. But that variation goes in the humanities, too. Psych:phys::English:Religion (again, this is at my crappy little east coast school)

2. School v. working in the real world. I think school is better, because it's an incredibly artificial game with fixed rules. You play by them, you win. Life, on the other hand, is a bitch. You can lose your job, your car can self-destruct, you kid can get sick...these are all aspects of the real world. There is no curve you can ride, no dean who can bail you out, etc. About the worst thing that can happen to you in college is getting sexiled by your roomie or failing an exam or two...like, whatever.
 
its alot of work i agree and non-pre meds really dont understand how much we have to know just to get in to medical school...
 
Originally posted by ewing

2. School v. working in the real world. I think school is better, because it's an incredibly artificial game with fixed rules. You play by them, you win. Life, on the other hand, is a bitch. You can lose your job, your car can self-destruct, you kid can get sick...these are all aspects of the real world. There is no curve you can ride, no dean who can bail you out, etc. About the worst thing that can happen to you in college is getting sexiled by your roomie or failing an exam or two...like, whatever.

I solidly disagree. If your goal is to have a bachelors degree in X number of yeras, then fine, the rules are fixed. But there is no straight forward path that will guarantee you will get into the med school of your choice. Generally, in a job situation, you have to compete to get the job, but after that, in most function HR knows what a headache hiring is, and you can often coast. Failing the ability to coast, most employed people know exactly how hard they have to work to maintain their job. You can also make friends at work that will bail you out. the worst thing that can happen as a premed is you could do a lot of brutal work, not manage to get in to any med school, have a useless degree, and work as a peon lab rat if you're lucky. Or, you could get in over your head with the classes you take on, and lose your scholarship. Or you could get your backpack stolen out of your car with all of your homework, labs, and books (happened to me), or you could get in a car accident that was completely not your fault and have to drop classes because you could no longer commute and you had to fight the insurance company for 3 1/2 months before they made a reasonable offer (also happened to me), or your roommate could decide to move in with his girlfriend the semester before you are about to transfer, and find youraelf greatful that he'll let you pay the same amount you had paid for half an apartment, except now you have a room half the size and no claim to the common areas, so you feel like a stranger in your own home and you plunge into a deep state of depression (also happened to me). Your attempt to distinguish "school" from "the real world" seems to be based on the oversimplified notion that mommy and daddy take care of financial problems when you're in school, but not when you have a job. Students can have their car self-destruct, and not everyone lives on campus. Students can have a kid who gets sick, and there is nothing about having a job that means you also have kids.

I've been primarily responsible for my personal finacial responsibilites since the age of 12 (clothes, school supplies, lunch money, toiletries, recreational cash--all out of my own pocket), and I've been financially independant of my parents for the most part since I was 19 (they did buy me a computer, and for a while my mother still paid my car insurance). That isn't true for 99% of the premeds that I know, but I can still say solidly that there is no easy ride into med school. Statistically, half of all med school applicants get rejected, whereas if the unemployment rate was as high as 15%, the incumbents could all kiss their @sses good-bye.
 
As far as the whole humanities vs. pre-med thing goes, I suppose its a matter of ability. In undergrad I was a film major (I took lots of film analysis classes...The Godfather's a pretty good movie) and it really was pretty much a joke. Oh, we wrote a lot of papers and had to work on our film projects (staying at the school until after midnight to edit or using lots of out of class time to shoot the movies), but other than that it was a breeze. I saw all my biology and physical therapy major friends freaking out on a weekly basis about chem exams and bio exams and I would just go to my room to pull an 8 page paper on "Christ symbolism in John Ford movies" out of my a$$. It was no problem.
When I took my pre-reqs I got a sound a$$ kicking from the chems, ochem, and MOST especially, physics. All of that stuff was hard as hell. I never thought I'd survive. Yet, most of the kids that surrounded me were really good at it and seemed to find it not TOO terribly challenging. But, ask a group of science majors how they would feel about writing an 8 page paper and I think most of them would grumble (and the humanities folks will write a much better paper, by and large) and find it a tedious task. As I said, it's all just a matter of natural ability toward one or the other.
 
As I said, it's all just a matter of natural ability toward one or the other.
couldn't have said it better myself. also, your signature with the jessica simpson quote is badass. seriously, jessica simpson has got to be the most vacuous, empty vessel i've ever seen. that being said, i would still step over my dead grandma to cop a feel.
 
She's hot, but god, can you imagine having to listen to her day in and day out?

I mean, really.

She gives us Texans a bad name (and a bad name for all fellow women everywhere)...

:rolleyes:
 
hey fellow engineer :)

i may be crazy but i actually love what i do. i loved o chem. i think the moment you consider your education work, or a chore, you lose contact of the fact that it is a HUGE priveledge that many people are not rewarded with. and that learning is fun.

AND!

AND!

some respect needs to be given to non-science majors - there are lazy people who take o chem and extremely diligent people in the liberal arts. it's just sad none of those diligent people run our country. :-(
 
Originally posted by ewing
Here's my (unsolicited) take on the thing:

1. Science v. Humanties. It really depends to what level you study them.

2. School v. working in the real world. I think school is better, because it's an incredibly artificial game with fixed rules. You play by them, you win. Life, on the other hand, is a bitch. You can lose your job, your car can self-destruct, you kid can get sick...these are all aspects of the real world. There is no curve you can ride, no dean who can bail you out, etc. About the worst thing that can happen to you in college is getting sexiled by your roomie or failing an exam or two...like, whatever.

Okay, i'm a little late here, but felt i had to share my $.02.

I agree mostly with both these points. It definitely varies with level of courses taken, but I took some kick-butt upper-level econ and math classes that proved at least as hard as the hardest science class I've taken (an upper level parasitology course.) at the same time, pre-med classes are definitely no joke. however, what's comforting (in my mind) about them is that if you study, memorize, do problems, and sometimes understand concepts you are nearly guaranteed of doing well. with liberal arts courses, it's more open-ended: your writing abilities and sophistication in organizing/integrating concepts in papers and theses come into play. i like to write, but it takes me forever to write something--so that created a bit more stress than the predictable nature of a problem set or upcoming exam.

Now regarding the 2nd point, i know people's experiences will vary, but for me the transition b/t school and the real world (i.e. work) was painful. suddenly there's no structure, you no longer have any control over your time, you have to learn how to schmooze and play politics. there is no outlet, no friendly professor or comforting mentor to gain advice from if you're in trouble, no class you really enjoy going to. and it was uniformly BORING. after days and nights of number-crunching and staring bleakly at excel spreadsheets i felt as though my brain was eroding. i would take school over work in a heartbeat.

anyway, that's just my take--obviously it depends on line of work and academic rigor of the classes. i think a rote comparison of pre-med and "humanities" classeas is a moot point; it's comparing apples and oranges. but i do definitely feel that pre-med classes are challenging, stimulating, and (mostly) interesting--that's why I'm attracted toward becoming a doctor.
 
Originally posted by spumoni620
Okay, i'm a little late here, but felt i had to share my $.02.

I agree mostly with both these points. It definitely varies with level of courses taken, but I took some kick-butt upper-level econ and math classes that proved at least as hard as the hardest science class I've taken (an upper level parasitology course.) at the same time, pre-med classes are definitely no joke. however, what's comforting (in my mind) about them is that if you study, memorize, do problems, and sometimes understand concepts you are nearly guaranteed of doing well. with liberal arts courses, it's more open-ended: your writing abilities and sophistication in organizing/integrating concepts in papers and theses come into play. i like to write, but it takes me forever to write something--so that created a bit more stress than the predictable nature of a problem set or upcoming exam.

huh:confused: :confused: Math is a science, probably the most "pure" science in fact.
 
Originally posted by spumoni620
suddenly there's no structure, you no longer have any control over your time, you have to learn how to schmooze and play politics. there is no outlet, no friendly professor or comforting mentor to gain advice from if you're in trouble, no class you really enjoy going to. and it was uniformly BORING. after days and nights of number-crunching and staring bleakly at excel spreadsheets i felt as though my brain was eroding. i would take school over work in a heartbeat.

Wow, this sounds exactly like my chemical engineering courses.

To cerb: math is not a science, because there's no observation and hypothesis. But taking claculus is among the things that premeds do that I think qualifies as work.

My point was not to start yet another argument about science vs. humanities. I love the humanities, and I think they've contributed far more to the part of my education that I can apply to my everyday experience. But as for different people having different skills, that's kind of my point. If you're good at reading fast, retaining what you read, and analyzing and writing about it, then an English dgree will not seem like too much work. But a premed has to:
1) have good people skills to get EC's that demonstrate leadership
2) Sell themselves to get shining LOR's
3) Be consistent and confident enough to work in a clinical or research environment and excell at what they do
4) Be a good standardized test taker
5) Be good at the quantitative reasoning of math and physics
6) Be good at the qualitative reasoning of gen chem and o chem
7) Be good at memorizing tons of info for bio courses
8) Be a good enough writer to have a good WS scores and a good personal statement, in addition to the many breadth humanities courses which can sully their GPA (engineers, for instance, can often feel free to squeeze out some B's, and not have it affect them at all in their goals).
9) Handle yourself with poise and confidence in an interview

Very few people are so good at all of these thing that the premed route is anything less than a great deal of work. While O-chem was one of my strongest subjects, I have other weaknesses that I suffer for. O chem was used as my example course because it is the single greatest problem for most premeds (along with the MCAT, part part of the MCAT fear is that it requires o chem), and it lies in the category of coursework that my sis was completely unfamiliar with in her experiences as an undergrad.
 
I took a study abroad course last summer in London through Michigan State that was given via the English/Philosophy department. Everyone in the program was a pre-med because the nature of the course was medical ethics. The entire class consisted of writing papers (2 each week and a final thesis paper at the end) and everyone freaked. All the kids (I call them kids because they were 20 and I was 29) were science majors (and very, very bright people) but horrible writers. They hated writing, found it to be their achilles' heel and they ended up coming to me for advice since I was the only one with any sort of writing background. They were mystified by my ease in composing these papers and resented (in a way) that it came so easy for me. I explained to them that math, physics, ochem, etc came naturally for them and I envied their ability to grasp those concepts with relative ease. Anyway, they did about as well in this course as I did in my pre-reqs (it was the first B for a lot of them!), which is not so good. But I think the point about pre-meds needing to have an amalgam of skills is well taken. People now expect docs to be well rounded scientists and communicators. They can raise the bar and so they have. Going on the interview trail last year I found that most schools seemed to be interested in my "diverse" background simply because of its rarity in the med school world. God knows I'm not the scientist that most of you are, but I hope I can bring something varied and unique to the table to both my patients and collegues.
 
Originally posted by Elysium
I think the point about pre-meds needing to have an amalgam of skills is well taken. People now expect docs to be well rounded scientists and communicators. They can raise the bar and so they have. Going on the interview trail last year I found that most schools seemed to be interested in my "diverse" background simply because of its rarity in the med school world. God knows I'm not the scientist that most of you are, but I hope I can bring something varied and unique to the table to both my patients and collegues.

Well put. Very well put. I think we all should be proud that we are striving towards such a goal -- rather than wonder why it's labeled as "chicken of the sea" when it's actually tuna.
 
Wow this is the making of a great amateur cat-fight. I bet on ur sis.

And then you both can go to your rooms.
 
Hey Jessica Simpson has that amalgam of skills I was talking about. Imagine her taking an H&P. It would be brilliant!

Look at my sig for another new J.S. quote.





:D
 
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